Author Topic: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?  (Read 17536 times)

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Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2015, 06:12:32 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2015, 06:27:49 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 06:30:02 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2015, 06:42:53 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
I see people with depression all over the word taking pills getting addicted and more depression.If that is not a failure of 'medical world'then what is it?Not to mention about cancer etc

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2015, 06:50:54 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
I see people with depression all over the word taking pills getting addicted and more depression.If that is not a failure of 'medical world'then what is it?Not to mention about cancer etc
There are failures and there are success stories, as expected. It's all a balance.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2015, 07:19:48 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
I see people with depression all over the word taking pills getting addicted and more depression.If that is not a failure of 'medical world'then what is it?Not to mention about cancer etc
There are failures and there are success stories, as expected. It's all a balance.
Maybe it's a balance in your dimension.You see as a monk said'Satan s best work is to convince people he doesn't exist'

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2015, 07:38:31 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
I see people with depression all over the word taking pills getting addicted and more depression.If that is not a failure of 'medical world'then what is it?Not to mention about cancer etc
There are failures and there are success stories, as expected. It's all a balance.
Maybe it's a balance in your dimension.You see as a monk said'Satan s best work is to convince people he doesn't exist'
One need not deny the existence of Satan to value science. There are many scientists who are believers. Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the greatest biologists of the 20th Century, was Orthodox.

And you do, of course, realize that this thing you are typing these messages on would not exist without centuries of scientific development, right? ;)
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2015, 07:56:00 AM »
I don't understand what you're saying. Sorry.
You said'your position sounds more anti-science'
Porter seems to think every malady is primarily caused by a demon "pulling on your wires," so to speak. I disagree for three reasons:

1. By robbing the physical world of true action upon us, we court Gnosticism.

2. Rejecting "secular" means of investigating phenomena (ie. science) robs us of an important part of our God-given capacity for critical thought and leaves us at the mercy of all kinds of unsubstantiated or not rigorously substantiated folk practices and beliefs (my reference to the Evil Eye and Romanian vampires is not merely an idle insult as Porter claims, but a serious objection). Yes, the ancients were wise, but they were not infallible. God's revelation did not vanish at the end of the Middle Ages.

3. If every problem is first and foremost a matter of spiritual warfare, we should expect to see a dramatic rate of failure in psychiatric and medical solutions. Every doctor should just direct his patients to the nearest monastery for exorcism and leave it at that.


There is no conflict between God and science when both are properly construed. If I'm unbalanced toward the physical side of existence, then Porter is surely unbalanced toward the spiritual.
I see people with depression all over the word taking pills getting addicted and more depression.If that is not a failure of 'medical world'then what is it?Not to mention about cancer etc
There are failures and there are success stories, as expected. It's all a balance.
Maybe it's a balance in your dimension.You see as a monk said'Satan s best work is to convince people he doesn't exist'
One need not deny the existence of Satan to value science. There are many scientists who are believers. Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the greatest biologists of the 20th Century, was Orthodox.

And you do, of course, realize that this thing you are typing these messages on would not exist without centuries of scientific development, right? ;)
yes I agree but scientific development can't save you ;)

Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2015, 08:21:50 AM »
Volnutt I'm new member in this site as you see I'm Christian Orthodox.What are you?I only see mafia next to faith.I would like to know more about you
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 08:22:23 AM by Seekingtrue »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2015, 11:24:07 AM »
I'm sorry, but in the sixty one years since i was born, I can't recall any lengthy discussions by our priests or bishops about demonic possession or blaming demons for what ails us. I know that some folks look for reasons why bad things happen to good people or why people fail to overcome addictions or why cancer recurs and why a drunk crashed into our car and killed a loved one and so on. Blaming the devil and demons is an easy out to avoid personal responsibility for the choices we make or to come up with a satisfactory answer as to why seemingly random 'bad things' happen to us or our loved ones.

Yes we reject Satan and all his angels and all of his works at our Baptism though our Godparents if an infant and through our own words if an adult and we are constantly charged as believers to do so throughout our lives. BUT it is an easy out to simply look to the devil and demons as the primary cause of our everyday struggles, challenges and failings.

We live in a fallen world and in that fallen world with all of its randomness, we are also granted the great gift of free will.


Offline Seekingtrue

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2015, 11:44:29 AM »
I'm sorry, but in the sixty one years since i was born, I can't recall any lengthy discussions by our priests or bishops about demonic possession or blaming demons for what ails us. I know that some folks look for reasons why bad things happen to good people or why people fail to overcome addictions or why cancer recurs and why a drunk crashed into our car and killed a loved one and so on. Blaming the devil and demons is an easy out to avoid personal responsibility for the choices we make or to come up with a satisfactory answer as to why seemingly random 'bad things' happen to us or our loved ones.

Yes we reject Satan and all his angels and all of his works at our Baptism though our Godparents if an infant and through our own words if an adult and we are constantly charged as believers to do so throughout our lives. BUT it is an easy out to simply look to the devil and demons as the primary cause of our everyday struggles, challenges and failings.

We live in a fallen world and in that fallen world with all of its randomness, we are also granted the great gift of free will.


we are not speaking out of our minds but based on Bible,Church fathers works,Saints and tradition.who are your bishops and priests?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2015, 12:04:45 PM »
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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2015, 03:40:25 PM »
Thread unlocked.
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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2015, 03:43:49 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"? 
OCnet is KGB.
I hail Mor Ephrem as our Secretary General.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2015, 03:56:59 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"? 

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2015, 04:00:51 PM »
It's a matter of who one's authorities are: German noblemen of the Skeptic school who took to dabbling in archaeology, or Holy Fathers diligent to preserve the catholic wholeness of scriptural tradition.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2015, 05:47:35 PM »
What volnutt and porter are arguing over amounts to differing takes on the naturalistic explanation for what we typically describe as mental illness. What they have in difference is a lot less and less interesting than what they have in common.

To answer the OP: absolutely.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2015, 06:47:00 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 06:47:24 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2015, 09:12:02 PM »
What volnutt and porter are arguing over amounts to differing takes on the naturalistic explanation for what we typically describe as mental illness. What they have in difference is a lot less and less interesting than what they have in common.

To answer the OP: absolutely.

This lad has a little more in his cap then that feather he tends to flash there.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2015, 09:44:29 PM »
What volnutt and porter are arguing over amounts to differing takes on the naturalistic explanation for what we typically describe as mental illness. What they have in difference is a lot less and less interesting than what they have in common.

To answer the OP: absolutely.

This lad has a little more in his cap then that feather he tends to flash there.
No, actually he's kind of my sense in a lot of ways. You two should pow wow sometime.

I'm out of culturally appropriated synonyms...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2015, 04:47:48 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2015, 04:49:52 AM »
It's a matter of who one's authorities are: German noblemen of the Skeptic school who took to dabbling in archaeology, or Holy Fathers diligent to preserve the catholic wholeness of scriptural tradition.

Keeps on being a very interesting debate.
In fact they found out that some verses were added later on, like John 5:7b-8a.
(Might have never gotten into the Bibles that the Orthodox church use, I don't know)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2015, 04:53:50 AM »
It's a matter of who one's authorities are: German noblemen of the Skeptic school who took to dabbling in archaeology, or Holy Fathers diligent to preserve the catholic wholeness of scriptural tradition.

Keeps on being a very interesting debate.
In fact they found out that some verses were added later on, like John 5:7b-8a.
(Might have never gotten into the Bibles that the Orthodox church use, I don't know)

"They found out" that all the Gospels are hodge-podges of recension and interpolation, but who's keeping score?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2015, 05:00:22 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Oh, yes, that's exactly what that verse means. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book." That must be talking about a binding-together of 66 books, which were never bound together in St. John's readers' day and a good portion of which they didn't have access to, yet which excludes another seven books Protestants arbitrarily threw away almost two millennia later. It couldn't possibly be talking about what it clearly says it's talking about, a book of prophecy that features prominently throughout the Revelation, handed down from heaven to St. John (viz., a warning against ignoring or warping St. John's prophecies).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2015, 05:09:37 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Oh, yes, that's exactly what that verse means. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book." That must be talking about a binding-together of 66 books, which were never bound together in St. John's readers' day and a good portion of which they didn't have access to, yet which excludes another seven books Protestants arbitrarily threw away almost two millennia later. It couldn't possibly be talking about what it clearly says it's talking about, a book of prophecy that features prominently throughout the Revelation, handed down from heaven to St. John (viz., a warning against ignoring or warping St. John's prophecies).

Athenagoras already had the 66 books.
They were "added" (as definitely divinely inspired) later by the Council of Trent (at least in the West).
While 2 Maccabees itself claims to have been overdone.


For me it is Sola Scriptura (yes I took that from the Protestants since a few weeks or so), as we can only be sure of those 66 Books.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2015, 05:14:43 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Oh, yes, that's exactly what that verse means. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book." That must be talking about a binding-together of 66 books, which were never bound together in St. John's readers' day and a good portion of which they didn't have access to, yet which excludes another seven books Protestants arbitrarily threw away almost two millennia later. It couldn't possibly be talking about what it clearly says it's talking about, a book of prophecy that features prominently throughout the Revelation, handed down from heaven to St. John (viz., a warning against ignoring or warping St. John's prophecies).

Athenagoras already had the 66 books.
They were "added" (as definitely divinely inspired) later by the Council of Trent (at least in the West).
While 2 Maccabees itself claims to have been overdone.

Okay. Do you want to address the rest of my point?

Quote
For me it is Sola Scriptura (yes I took that from the Protestants since a few weeks or so), as we can only be sure of those 66 Books.

That's not what sola Scriptura means.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2015, 07:54:50 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.
I see "editing the Bible" as being what Thomas Jefferson did (cutting out all the parts that didn't appeal to his Deism) or maybe what Luther considered doing (throwing out the book of James because it made no sense to him) and certainly what Marcion did.

If one is inspired by God to do so, I don't see the issue. The headings of the Psalms and the coda of Deuteronomy describing Moses' death were obviously added later, yet are considered actual parts of Scripture.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2015, 12:24:37 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.
I see "editing the Bible" as being what Thomas Jefferson did (cutting out all the parts that didn't appeal to his Deism) or maybe what Luther considered doing (throwing out the book of James because it made no sense to him) and certainly what Marcion did.

If one is inspired by God to do so, I don't see the issue. The headings of the Psalms and the coda of Deuteronomy describing Moses' death were obviously added later, yet are considered actual parts of Scripture.

If you edit Bible you say that GOD is wrong and you are right.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2015, 02:26:12 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.
I see "editing the Bible" as being what Thomas Jefferson did (cutting out all the parts that didn't appeal to his Deism) or maybe what Luther considered doing (throwing out the book of James because it made no sense to him) and certainly what Marcion did.

If one is inspired by God to do so, I don't see the issue. The headings of the Psalms and the coda of Deuteronomy describing Moses' death were obviously added later, yet are considered actual parts of Scripture.

If you edit Bible you say that GOD is wrong and you are right.
Such an inflammatory charge needs evidence. What "pro-Orthodox interpolations" are there in the Bible?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2015, 03:37:28 PM »
It's a matter of who one's authorities are: German noblemen of the Skeptic school who took to dabbling in archaeology, or Holy Fathers diligent to preserve the catholic wholeness of scriptural tradition.

Keeps on being a very interesting debate.
In fact they found out that some verses were added later on, like John 5:7b-8a.


No, they were not.
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2015, 04:04:24 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.
I see "editing the Bible" as being what Thomas Jefferson did (cutting out all the parts that didn't appeal to his Deism) or maybe what Luther considered doing (throwing out the book of James because it made no sense to him) and certainly what Marcion did.

If one is inspired by God to do so, I don't see the issue. The headings of the Psalms and the coda of Deuteronomy describing Moses' death were obviously added later, yet are considered actual parts of Scripture.

If you edit Bible you say that GOD is wrong and you are right.
Such an inflammatory charge needs evidence. What "pro-Orthodox interpolations" are there in the Bible?

Orthodox Bible is pure.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2015, 04:05:25 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.
I see "editing the Bible" as being what Thomas Jefferson did (cutting out all the parts that didn't appeal to his Deism) or maybe what Luther considered doing (throwing out the book of James because it made no sense to him) and certainly what Marcion did.

If one is inspired by God to do so, I don't see the issue. The headings of the Psalms and the coda of Deuteronomy describing Moses' death were obviously added later, yet are considered actual parts of Scripture.

If you edit Bible you say that GOD is wrong and you are right.
Such an inflammatory charge needs evidence. What "pro-Orthodox interpolations" are there in the Bible?

Orthodox Bible is pure.
Oh, sorry. I thought you were supporting Tom's post.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2015, 07:16:13 PM »
Athenagoras already had the 66 books.
They were "added" (as definitely divinely inspired) later by the Council of Trent (at least in the West).
While 2 Maccabees itself claims to have been overdone.

For me it is Sola Scriptura (yes I took that from the Protestants since a few weeks or so), as we can only be sure of those 66 Books.

The Early Church never had an official "canon" to begin with. Even the works of St Clement of Rome and the Shepard of Hermas were taken as Inspired Scripture, on the same level of those 66 books Protestants have in their Canon.

Sola Scriptura is unfortunately fallacious. It deems every fallible individual as capable of Interpreting Scripture. Through the Holy Spirit. Did the Holy Spirit told Calvin that some are predestined to Salvation and others to Damnation? Did the Holy Spirit told Luther that the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist is in fact the Body and Blood of Christ and then proceeded to tell Zwingli that that's actually nonsensical?

Or perhaps why did Scripture never actually says "Scripture Alone" and often make reference to Tradition?

Also if Scripture is Sufficient, we should by definition have a Sufficient and complete Canon since the beginning of Christianity. But this isn't the case.

In short, Sola Scriptura is not true.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 07:16:56 PM by sakura95 »
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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2015, 09:36:16 PM »
These seem to be some relatively common arguments for Sola Scriptura that Tom might have in mind. http://www.letusreason.org/RC23.htm

Also, Calvin himself didn't teach Double Predestination, that was his successor, Theodore Beza.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2015, 11:57:05 PM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"?  

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Oh, yes, that's exactly what that verse means. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book." That must be talking about a binding-together of 66 books, which were never bound together in St. John's readers' day and a good portion of which they didn't have access to, yet which excludes another seven books Protestants arbitrarily threw away almost two millennia later. It couldn't possibly be talking about what it clearly says it's talking about, a book of prophecy that features prominently throughout the Revelation, handed down from heaven to St. John (viz., a warning against ignoring or warping St. John's prophecies).

Athenagoras already had the 66 books.
They were "added" (as definitely divinely inspired) later by the Council of Trent (at least in the West).
While 2 Maccabees itself claims to have been overdone.


For me it is Sola Scriptura (yes I took that from the Protestants since a few weeks or so), as we can only be sure of those 66 Books.

No, it does not.
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"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #124 on: January 13, 2015, 12:00:57 AM »
These seem to be some relatively common arguments for Sola Scriptura that Tom might have in mind. http://www.letusreason.org/RC23.htm

Also, Calvin himself didn't teach Double Predestination, that was his successor, Theodore Beza.

Something doesn't need to be taught to be implicit. The Institutes are full of calamitous verbiage.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #125 on: January 13, 2015, 12:10:50 AM »
I agree, which is hy I never found Infralapsarianisn to be convincing.
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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2015, 12:17:12 AM »
You win today's long-word ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2015, 12:30:41 AM »
Yaaaaaay!
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2015, 12:32:59 AM »
I didn't know the fake ending of Mark was a part of Orthodox tradition.

What fake ending?

Quote
Actually having demons inside you overriding your faculties still seems to be of a whole other order.

Who said anything about "inside"? 

There is no fake ending to Mark. The Church which wrote the Bible has a right to edit what she wrote.
Well, yes. I suppose if you take that view, it can't be fake. Point conceded.


I guess they never read the end of Revelation... Editing the Bible seems to be mentioned as a serious crime there.

Oh, yes, that's exactly what that verse means. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book." That must be talking about a binding-together of 66 books, which were never bound together in St. John's readers' day and a good portion of which they didn't have access to, yet which excludes another seven books Protestants arbitrarily threw away almost two millennia later. It couldn't possibly be talking about what it clearly says it's talking about, a book of prophecy that features prominently throughout the Revelation, handed down from heaven to St. John (viz., a warning against ignoring or warping St. John's prophecies).

Athenagoras already had the 66 books.
They were "added" (as definitely divinely inspired) later by the Council of Trent (at least in the West).
While 2 Maccabees itself claims to have been overdone.


For me it is Sola Scriptura (yes I took that from the Protestants since a few weeks or so), as we can only be sure of those 66 Books.

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about do you?

No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The first KJV and Luther Bible had them in, it was a Dutch Reformed council, I believe, that removed them. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter (367) have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 12:37:26 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2015, 12:35:54 AM »
You REALLY don't know what you're talking about do you?

No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.

Can you cite some of that controversy please?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2015, 12:39:48 AM »
You REALLY don't know what you're talking about do you?

No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.

Can you cite some of that controversy please?

I read it a while ago. Revelation was controversial in the West and Hebrews was controversial in the East... something like that. Eventually they agreed to compromise and put them both in at the last minute. I wish I could cite it, but I wouldn't know where to look honestly.

Edit: Never mind!

"While the ideas of a canon became more clear, only the core described previously was certain. Revelation in particular was attacked by many because Montanism had made apocalyptic material suspect. Gaius of Rome, an early third century churchman, attacked the inclusion of the Gospel of St. John, Hebrews, and Revelation on anti-Montanist grounds (he ascribed St. John's Gospel and Revelation to Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who was a contemporary of St. John). [Hans von Campenhausen, The Formation of the Christian Canon, trans. J. A. Baker (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1972) pp. 238, Andrew Louth, "Who's Who in Eusebius" in The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine (New York: Penguin, 1989) pp. 369, Eusebius, The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, trans. G. A. Williamson (New York: Penguin, 1989) pp. 91]

In general, however, apocalyptic material, while treated with caution, was not considered as suspect in the West as in the East. The Shepherd was dropped from the Western canon; the Revelation of Peter and the Revelation of John were both challenged. However, in the East (the Greek speaking parts of the world and Egypt), there was nearly universal refusal to allow apocalyptic writings into the canon until Western influence began to sway the Eastern Christians in the fourth century. Moreover, Hebrews was rejected in the West because it was used by the Montanists to justify their harsh penetential system and because the West was not certain of its authorship. Hebrews was not accepted in the West until the fourth century under the influence of St. Athanasius." [von Campenhausen, pp. 232, 233, 235, 237. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988) p. 221]

All from here: orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ntcanon_emergence.aspx
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 12:47:37 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2015, 12:43:13 AM »
No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The first KJV and Luther Bible had them in, it was a Dutch Reformed council, I believe, that removed them. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.

Please stop. St. Athanasius didn't include the deuterocanonicals. He didn't even include Esther. Oops. If you want to figure out the three or four other mistakes you made, try reading the documents you are mentioning.

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2015, 12:47:02 AM »
I started a thread about the Apocrypha http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,63139.new.html#new

Can we please move this part of the discussion there and let this thread get back on topic?



I apologize to the mods if I acted out of turn.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2015, 12:49:55 AM »
No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The first KJV and Luther Bible had them in, it was a Dutch Reformed council, I believe, that removed them. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.

Please stop. St. Athanasius didn't include the deuterocanonicals. He didn't even include Esther. Oops. If you want to figure out the three or four other mistakes you made, try reading the documents you are mentioning.

I have read Carthage, I haven't read Athanasius, so you may be right about that.
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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2015, 12:55:21 AM »
What volnutt and porter are arguing over amounts to differing takes on the naturalistic explanation for what we typically describe as mental illness. What they have in difference is a lot less and less interesting than what they have in common.

To answer the OP: absolutely.
Yeah, you're probably right on both points, as depressing as it is for me to admit it...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.