Author Topic: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?  (Read 15026 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #135 on: January 13, 2015, 01:03:59 AM »
You REALLY don't know what you're talking about do you?

No books were added by the Council of Trent, they were removed by Protestants. The Council of Carthage (393) and Athanasius' Festal Letter have the list of 73+ books as Orthodox and Catholic use. Anyway, the Book of Revelation was put into the Bible at the last minute because of how controversial it was.

Can you cite some of that controversy please?

I read it a while ago. Revelation was controversial in the West and Hebrews was controversial in the East... something like that. Eventually they agreed to compromise and put them both in at the last minute. I wish I could cite it, but I wouldn't know where to look honestly.

Edit: Never mind!

"While the ideas of a canon became more clear, only the core described previously was certain. Revelation in particular was attacked by many because Montanism had made apocalyptic material suspect. Gaius of Rome, an early third century churchman, attacked the inclusion of the Gospel of St. John, Hebrews, and Revelation on anti-Montanist grounds (he ascribed St. John's Gospel and Revelation to Cerinthus, a Gnostic heretic who was a contemporary of St. John). [Hans von Campenhausen, The Formation of the Christian Canon, trans. J. A. Baker (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1972) pp. 238, Andrew Louth, "Who's Who in Eusebius" in The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine (New York: Penguin, 1989) pp. 369, Eusebius, The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, trans. G. A. Williamson (New York: Penguin, 1989) pp. 91]

In general, however, apocalyptic material, while treated with caution, was not considered as suspect in the West as in the East. The Shepherd was dropped from the Western canon; the Revelation of Peter and the Revelation of John were both challenged. However, in the East (the Greek speaking parts of the world and Egypt), there was nearly universal refusal to allow apocalyptic writings into the canon until Western influence began to sway the Eastern Christians in the fourth century. Moreover, Hebrews was rejected in the West because it was used by the Montanists to justify their harsh penetential system and because the West was not certain of its authorship. Hebrews was not accepted in the West until the fourth century under the influence of St. Athanasius." [von Campenhausen, pp. 232, 233, 235, 237. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988) p. 221]

All from here: orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ntcanon_emergence.aspx

Your source is a tertiary (von Campenhausen and Louth being his secondaries) who manages to cite only one primary, a writer who also supposedly cast doubt on St. John's Gospel and the letter to the Hebrews. I can't get any special controversy over the Revelation out of it.

One thing I'm reminded of while reading your quote is how much of the "making of the Canon" would be better understood as Fathers attempting to finger heretical works: something hardly the same as -- in the fundamentalist mind -- their setting aside all and only the writings the contents of which are "infallible" (and all that means).
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2017, 05:34:32 AM »
Demons don't exist. This is my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:42:59 AM by Indocern »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2017, 06:11:48 AM »
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2017, 10:37:49 AM »
Demons don't exist. This is my opinion.

So, the Gospels are incorrect?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2017, 10:54:28 AM »
Demons don't exist. This is my opinion.

Your opinion in this matter is highly incorrect.  They DO exist....and the fact that many people don't think they do...only allows them more latitude.

They are mentioned in Holy Scripture, we have prayers to safeguard us against them.

Be very careful.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2017, 11:38:47 AM »
Thinking out loud here...

1. Our Orthodox view of salvation is different from the Protestant view. For most Protestants, you are either "saved" or "lost." There is no in between. But as Orthodox "believers" we are being saved. So in the process of being saved it may be possible that God would allow for us to be tried even through something as horrific as demonic possession. I think of Job who was most certainly a child of God, and yet the devil tormented him greatly (although Job was not possessed.)

2. Hollywood movies aren't theology, but the movie "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" brings up some profound questions. Based on a true story, the theme of the movie is that God allowed one of His children to become demonically possessed in order to reveal the reality of spiritual warfare to the world. The subject of the movie was a devout Catholic college girl who was given the choice to be freed from her possession and taken to heaven or remain on earth in a possessed state so that the world would know about the reality of demons. She chose to serve God by remaining on earth and remaining possessed. So it was a type of martyrdom. (Good movie BTW.)

3. As much as I know that salvation involves taking up our cross and enduring various forms of suffering and struggle, I have a hard time believing that God would hand His children over to demonic possession. Christ delivered people from demons while He walked the earth, and He cast the demons into pigs. St. Paul refers more than once to the fact that light can have no fellowship with darkness. And it stands to reason that where the Holy Spirit abides demons and Satan cannot abide.

So, the bottom line is that I really don't know. And maybe it's best that we don't know the answer. Perhaps rather than speculating about whether or not "believers" can be demonically possessed, we should simply "submit ourselves to God, resisting the devil so that he will flee from us." [James4:7]


Selam
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 11:48:04 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2017, 12:16:12 PM »
Illusion is necessary to human happiness.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2017, 12:33:05 PM »
Maybe they exist, but we don't need to get too much in these things to not get fear unnecessary.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 12:58:00 PM by Indocern »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2017, 01:29:39 PM »
Maybe they exist, but we don't need to get too much in these things to not get fear unnecessary.

Cool. Let's get back to talking about vampires.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2017, 12:23:37 AM »
Illusion is necessary to human happiness.

Impious twaddle.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2017, 02:24:55 AM »
Maybe they exist, but we don't need to get too much in these things to not get fear unnecessary.

Cool. Let's get back to talking about vampires.

What about them?

Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #146 on: August 01, 2017, 09:47:17 AM »
Well I am orthodox and if forced influence in body is by demons they exist. They force me say things in church when I fire candle. It is not something evil but it is not something which can be true. It feels same way like my body is vomiting, I can't control it... Also can make you do things which is not something I will do, even if somebody put gun on me.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:47:51 AM by Indocern »

Offline hecma925

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #147 on: August 01, 2017, 11:02:28 AM »
Don't you have mental/medical issues as well?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 11:02:39 AM by hecma925 »
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Offline Indocern

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Re: Can an Orthodox believer have a demon?
« Reply #148 on: August 01, 2017, 11:34:30 AM »
Don't you have mental/medical issues as well?

No. I don't have mental problems, nor medical problems.