Author Topic: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch  (Read 1557 times)

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Offline Pravoslavac

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The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« on: December 31, 2014, 06:23:39 AM »
This is the full title of Alexandria's patriarch Theodore II.

"The most blessed and respected Father, Sir and Bishop, Pope and Patriarch of great city Alexandria, Livia, Pentopolis, Ethiopia and entire Egypt's land; Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Arch-priest of Arch-priests, thirteenth Apostle and the Judge of Ecumenical World, his all holiness patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa, Theodore II."

Impressive.  ;D

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Offline hayabusa

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2014, 07:33:32 AM »
This is the full title of Alexandria's patriarch Theodore II.

"The most blessed and respected Father, Sir and Bishop, Pope and Patriarch of great city Alexandria, Livia, Pentopolis, Ethiopia and entire Egypt's land; Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Arch-priest of Arch-priests, thirteenth Apostle and the Judge of Ecumenical World, his all holiness patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa, Theodore II."

Impressive.  ;D


AFAIK, it's "the Judge of the Universe", not "the Judge of Ecumenical World". It predates Chalcedon, again AFAIK. Though, it might be lost in the translation.

Yet, "The Most Divine Hollyness" of EP is outright unforgtable, IMO. :D :P
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2014, 12:48:58 PM »
Two points.

1. Nobody is "all holy" except for God and the Theotokos. Use of this for anybody else is ignorant at best. It is certainly heretical.

2. This sort of tripe emulates how pharaohs, emperors and kings styled themselves. Do our hierarchs really think of themselves in such exalted terms? Are they comfortable with being styled as pharaohs or kings?

Thutmose III: Horus Mighty Bull, Arising in Thebes;  He of the Two Ladies, Enduring in kingship like Re in heaven; Horus of Gold Powerful of strength, Sacred of appearance; He of the Sedge and the Bee; Son of Ra, Thutmose, beautiful of forms.
 
or

Nicholas II: We, Nicholas, by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia; Lord of Pskov, and Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bogaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Prince of Nizhny Novgorod, Chernigov; Sovereign of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all the northern territories; and Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories; Hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Cherkass and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.

I just cannot help but think that our prelates need to remember:

"So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation" Second Antiphon

"May the Lord cut off all flattering lips, And the tongue that speaks proud things." Psalm 12:3

"28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Roman Chapter 1: 28-32
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 12:56:12 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline NCNewbie

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2014, 12:51:09 PM »
"Nicholas II: We, Nicholas, by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia; Lord of Pskov, and Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bogaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Prince of Nizhny Novgorod, Chernigov; Sovereign of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all the northern territories; and Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories; Hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Cherkass and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth."

I guess his business card was a scroll.......

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2014, 01:11:01 PM »
Two points.

1. Nobody is "all holy" except for God and the Theotokos. Use of this for anybody else is ignorant at best. It is certainly heretical.

2. This sort of tripe emulates how pharaohs, emperors and kings styled themselves. Do our hierarchs really think of themselves in such exalted terms? Are they comfortable with being styled as pharaohs or kings?

Thutmose III: Horus Mighty Bull, Arising in Thebes;  He of the Two Ladies, Enduring in kingship like Re in heaven; Horus of Gold Powerful of strength, Sacred of appearance; He of the Sedge and the Bee; Son of Ra, Thutmose, beautiful of forms.
 
or

Nicholas II: We, Nicholas, by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia; Lord of Pskov, and Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bogaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Prince of Nizhny Novgorod, Chernigov; Sovereign of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all the northern territories; and Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories; Hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Cherkass and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.

I just cannot help but think that our prelates need to remember:

"So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation" Second Antiphon

"May the Lord cut off all flattering lips, And the tongue that speaks proud things." Psalm 12:3

"28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Roman Chapter 1: 28-32

I think Patriarchs with their titles honor more their holy predecessors and their high office than themselves.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2014, 01:19:09 PM »

AFAIK, it's "the Judge of the Universe", not "the Judge of Ecumenical World". It predates Chalcedon, again AFAIK. Though, it might be lost in the translation.


The title "Judge of the Ecumene" was granted to Patriarch Theophilus II of Alexandria (r. 1010-1020, resident in Constantinople) for reconciling Emperor Basil II the Bulgar-Slayer with Patriarch Sergius II of Constantinople. So it basically means "judge of the empire".

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2014, 01:26:02 PM »
Two points.

1. Nobody is "all holy" except for God and the Theotokos. Use of this for anybody else is ignorant at best. It is certainly heretical.

2. This sort of tripe emulates how pharaohs, emperors and kings styled themselves. Do our hierarchs really think of themselves in such exalted terms? Are they comfortable with being styled as pharaohs or kings?

Thutmose III: Horus Mighty Bull, Arising in Thebes;  He of the Two Ladies, Enduring in kingship like Re in heaven; Horus of Gold Powerful of strength, Sacred of appearance; He of the Sedge and the Bee; Son of Ra, Thutmose, beautiful of forms.
 
or

Nicholas II: We, Nicholas, by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia; Lord of Pskov, and Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bogaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Prince of Nizhny Novgorod, Chernigov; Sovereign of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all the northern territories; and Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories; Hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Cherkass and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.

I just cannot help but think that our prelates need to remember:

"So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation" Second Antiphon

"May the Lord cut off all flattering lips, And the tongue that speaks proud things." Psalm 12:3

"28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Roman Chapter 1: 28-32

I think Patriarchs with their titles honor more their holy predecessors and their high office than themselves.

I agree with you. I also laud prelates who open and close their communications simply, such as all modern primates. Nonetheless, each one of them has the power to ask his flock not to use the overblown honorifics--even at the risk of seeming to be proud. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The full title of Alexandria's patriarch
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 01:36:28 PM »
Two points.

1. Nobody is "all holy" except for God and the Theotokos. Use of this for anybody else is ignorant at best. It is certainly heretical.

2. This sort of tripe emulates how pharaohs, emperors and kings styled themselves. Do our hierarchs really think of themselves in such exalted terms? Are they comfortable with being styled as pharaohs or kings?

Thutmose III: Horus Mighty Bull, Arising in Thebes;  He of the Two Ladies, Enduring in kingship like Re in heaven; Horus of Gold Powerful of strength, Sacred of appearance; He of the Sedge and the Bee; Son of Ra, Thutmose, beautiful of forms.
 
or

Nicholas II: We, Nicholas, by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia; Lord of Pskov, and Grand Prince of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bogaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Prince of Nizhny Novgorod, Chernigov; Sovereign of Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislav, and all the northern territories; and Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories; Hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Cherkass and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth.

I just cannot help but think that our prelates need to remember:

"So the last will be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:16

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation" Second Antiphon

"May the Lord cut off all flattering lips, And the tongue that speaks proud things." Psalm 12:3

"28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Roman Chapter 1: 28-32

I think Patriarchs with their titles honor more their holy predecessors and their high office than themselves.

I agree with you. I also laud prelates who open and close their communications simply, such as all modern primates. Nonetheless, each one of them has the power to ask his flock not to use the overblown honorifics--even at the risk of seeming to be proud. 
The only ones who take their titles too seriously are the EP and the Patriarch of All Rus'-though the Patriarch of All Romania is going that direction in redefining it as "All Romanians-wherever they are."
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