Author Topic: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State  (Read 5597 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« on: December 29, 2014, 12:53:07 PM »
I realize that there are political aspects to this topic. I hope that we can restrict our discussion on the effects, if any, of church-state collaboration on the Church. Does such collaboration affect the well being of a local church, and if that is so, what are the positive and negative consequences.  

I am starting this topic because the largest of the Orthodox Churches, the Russian Orthodox Church, is showing signs of "collaboration" in the eyes of some Wesrtern observers. One such sign was the recent statement by Father Chaplin that according to Paul Goble of the blog Window on Eurasia, "...speaks volumes about the ways in which the Russian Orthodox Church is whipping up the kind of xenophobia that will require a great deal of time to overcome."

The article relates "In a 5,000-word interview with a Tatarstan business paper, (Fr.) Chaplin, who oversees the patriarchate’s policies on the church’s relations with society, said that Russia has often had to fight civilizational models which threaten its own, including not only Napoleon’s but Hitler’s. (http://www.business-gazeta.ru/article/122025/).

"Today, the patriarchate official continued, “we will stop the American project as well! This is a civilization of usury, a cult of the principle of ‘money makes money,’ and the triumph of egoism as the supposedly optimal model of human existence.” For Russians, convictions and faith must be “more important than profit.”

http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com/2014/12/window-on-eurasia-we-stopped-hitler-and.html

As the author of the article notes, Fr. Chaplin's probable target audience was Muslims and that may have played a role in equating Western civilization with usury. Nonetheless, this interview is the most anti-American statement by the Russians since the "good old days." That said, is this view congruent with that Patriarch Kirill's remarks on the occasion of Metropolitan Tikhon's recent official visit, when he said:

"Several decades ago, we and Christians in the USA were divided by the Iron Curtain and the Cold War psychology, but at a difficult time we were united by the awareness that we as Christians belong to the same system of moral values’, he said, pointing to the common system of values as a very important philosophical factor that created the system of relations between Christians in the two countries.

‘Today we cannot say about many Christians in the USA that we belong to the same system of values as they do, Patriarch Kirill stressed. He noted that a deviation from the fundamental biblical moral norms makes it impossible to continue dialogue with a considerable part of the Protestant communities in America who are members of the National Council of the Churches of Christ, with which the Russian Church used to maintain cooperation for decades including the grievous Cold War years. ‘At the same time, we are fully open to cooperation with the churches in North America who have remained faithful to the biblical morality. These are, in the first place, Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church and some Protestant churches’ "

https://mospat.ru/en/2014/12/03/news112466/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 01:09:48 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline mabsoota

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,859
  • Kyrie eleison
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox (Coptic)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 01:19:03 PM »
dear brother, if you start a parallel thread in politics, i will comment!

i will just say that as Christians we should not give in to state pressure,
but also outsider pressure is often not beneficial either.

i'm trying to see how long i can avoid moderation, so i'll leave it there; toooooooo tempting...
 ;)

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 01:20:03 PM »
dear brother, if you start a parallel thread in politics, i will comment!
Then start your own thread there! You don't have to wait for someone else to do it for you. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 01:34:43 PM »
dear brother, if you start a parallel thread in politics, i will comment!
Then start your own thread there! You don't have to wait for someone else to do it for you. ;)
Or just wait a day and this one will be there.  ;)
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 01:41:38 PM »
dear brother, if you start a parallel thread in politics, i will comment!
Then start your own thread there! You don't have to wait for someone else to do it for you. ;)
Or just wait a day and this one will be there.  ;)
This thread's move is not inevitable. You can help keep it here. Start by actually addressing the OP. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 01:51:37 PM »
It is my belief that having a homogenous religious perspective is beneficial to a country and when that occurs, it is inevitable that there is cooperation between the church and state.  Religion is a very strong unifying power. It helps create identity and common cause between its adherents. Historically, culturally disparate political entities had difficulty maintaining themselves. In fact, most empires grew when they encouraged homogeny and dissolved with they encouraged plurality. The United States is in the midst of a transition of this in which through much of it's history, it was dominated by Reformed Protestantism.  Of course, there were other minorities, but they were recognized as minorities and did not attempt to challenge the established overarching order.  Since the 60's, we have seen an increasingly fractured culture into countless niche markets and religious communities have grown into ever larger numbers with increasingly small number of adherents in each community. When a people no longer is able to self identify as a group, they lose their reason for political cohesion and the state suffers.
God bless!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2014, 02:01:30 PM »
I realize that there are political aspects to this topic. I hope that we can restrict our discussion on the effects, if any, of church-state collaboration on the Church. Does such collaboration affect the well being of a local church, and if that is so, what are the positive and negative consequences. 

You'd have to define collaboration.

State churches that are heavily favoured by the government tend to be deeply corrupt. Power corrupts and all that.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 02:01:50 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2014, 02:43:05 PM »
I think the political and intellectual events that intervened in time between us and the Fathers have almost entirely turned our heads, and we're unlikely to be able to have productive discussion or even thoughts on this subject. Once democracy crumbles, that will change, and I am full of expectation that our descendants will be able to reconnect the ancient thread of what is really involved in making mankind whole and happy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,926
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2014, 03:00:41 PM »

Russia has often had to fight civilizational models which threaten its own, including not only Napoleon’s but Hitler’s...

"Today, the patriarchate official continued, “we will stop the American project as well! This is a civilization of usury, a cult of the principle of ‘money makes money,’ and the triumph of egoism as the supposedly optimal model of human existence.” For Russians, convictions and faith must be “more important than profit.”

Sounds like something that could have been pulled verbatim from a Dostoevsky letter (well, obviously not the Hitler part). On the one hand this doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me. Lord, Tsar, Soviet, Putin... the leaders have changed, and the forms of government have changed, but is collaboration, suspicion of the west, etc. really a change? If anything it seems to me more like a return to the times before the Soviets. Now, was such collaboration a dangerous or harmful thing back then? Is it now? I think so, yes; particularly the belligerent nationalism. Yet I would imagine that many (almost all?) Fathers/saints would support it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:02:25 PM by Justin Kissel »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2014, 03:07:25 PM »
...

"Today, the patriarchate official continued, “we will stop the American project as well! This is a civilization of usury, a cult of the principle of ‘money makes money,’ and the triumph of egoism as the supposedly optimal model of human existence.” For Russians, convictions and faith must be “more important than profit.” ...


While I think this criticism is true, as far as it goes, yet the mark of good leadership is what they are able to discern for their own people. Villainizing wolves is not the same as feeding the flock. The patriarchate has a simple criterion by which they can prove themselves proper leaders of men: Make Russians the wholesomest happiest people in the world.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Georgii

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 458
  • Holy Martyr Afra, pray to God for us!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR, German episcopate
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2014, 03:49:56 PM »
I realize that there are political aspects to this topic. I hope that we can restrict our discussion on the effects, if any, of church-state collaboration on the Church. Does such collaboration affect the well being of a local church, and if that is so, what are the positive and negative consequences. 

...Russia has often had to fight civilizational models which threaten its own...

In ROCOR parishes here in Bavaria the general assumption is that Russia is indeed in a culture war against Europe and the US, and that Russia is the only country that is willing and able to take a stand on such issues as homosexual "marriage", transgenderism, and explicit sex education in schools. In this view, Conchita Wurst is the personification of all that is bad.

Because traditional Christian culture (both Catholic and Lutheran) is still relatively strong in Bavaria, the feeling in our parishes is that we here have been granted a temporary reprieve from the worst abuses of secular culture, but only temporarily: my fellow churchgoers are developing more and more of a siege mentality, it seems to me.

Now, Christians having a siege mentality is nothing new, and I have no clue what all the positive and negative consequences could be.

For me personally, I wonder if the assault of secularism (and I do believe that that is what is happening) will bring us closer together at least with our local Roman Catholics. As I have mentioned in other threads, some of us do sing at their services, and they at ours, with the blessings of our clergy.

As an American married to a Russian and with many Russian friends, it shakes me up of course when Russians talk about the US as The Enemy. Of course, Germans also tend to rant about the US, and act surprised if I take it personally.

At a trapeza after the Liturgy on Saturday the topic was again homosexuality and how Russia was the only country fighting for morality, etc. Someone said: "but what about Romania and Poland, aren't there a lot of Orthodox people there?" (they might have meant Bulgaria instead of Poland, though the number of Orthodox in Poland isn't exactly small, either).

Someone answered: "But there are Americans standing* in Romania and Poland with their anti-missile systems, so they aren't really free to do what they want."

(* literal translation of the Russian verb used here.)

I thought to myself: "Yeah, and there is one American sitting here at this table."

So, those are a couple of the positive and negative consequences of Russian church/state policies for me personally in my local church. There is a lot more I could say about this, and about the well being of my fellow parishioners, but like mabsoota I want to tread very lightly.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:57:08 PM by Georgii »
my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2014, 04:02:42 PM »
I don't know about Bavaria, but I would've thought Catholic Germany as a whole hardly needs to turn to Russian Orthodoxy for cultural conservatism.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2014, 04:07:06 PM »
I realize that there are political aspects to this topic. I hope that we can restrict our discussion on the effects, if any, of church-state collaboration on the Church. Does such collaboration affect the well being of a local church, and if that is so, what are the positive and negative consequences. 

...Russia has often had to fight civilizational models which threaten its own...

In ROCOR parishes here in Bavaria the general assumption is that Russia is indeed in a culture war against Europe and the US, and that Russia is the only country that is willing and able to take a stand on such issues as homosexual "marriage", transgenderism, and explicit sex education in schools. In this view, Conchita Wurst is the personification of all that is bad.

Because traditional Christian culture (both Catholic and Lutheran) is still relatively strong in Bavaria, the feeling in our parishes is that we here have been granted a temporary reprieve from the worst abuses of secular culture, but only temporarily: my fellow churchgoers are developing more and more of a siege mentality, it seems to me.

Now, Christians having a siege mentality is nothing new, and I have no clue what all the positive and negative consequences could be.

For me personally, I wonder if the assault of secularism (and I do believe that that is what is happening) will bring us closer together at least with our local Roman Catholics. As I have mentioned in other threads, some of us do sing at their services, and they at ours, with the blessings of our clergy.

As an American married to a Russian and with many Russian friends, it shakes me up of course when Russians talk about the US as The Enemy. Of course, Germans also tend to rant about the US, and act surprised if I take it personally.

At a trapeza after the Liturgy on Saturday the topic was again homosexuality and how Russia was the only country fighting for morality, etc. Someone said: "but what about Romania and Poland, aren't there a lot of Orthodox people there?" (they might have meant Bulgaria instead of Poland, though the number of Orthodox in Poland isn't exactly small, either).

Someone answered: "But there are Americans standing* in Romania and Poland with their anti-missile systems, so they aren't really free to do what they want."

(* literal translation of the Russian verb used here.)

I thought to myself: "Yeah, and there is one American sitting here at this table."

So, those are a couple of the positive and negative consequences of Russian church/state policies for me personally in my local church. There is a lot more I could say about this, and about the well being of my fellow parishioners, but like mabsoota I want to tread very lightly.
I've spent enough time on the internet to be suprised when non-Americans don't consider us the enemy. Cyrillic still confuses me. As a Dutchman, he should be hating on us all the time. It makes me suspicious, it does.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2014, 04:17:54 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands, and probably would as lief be a Greek in New Netherlands.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2014, 04:20:26 PM »
I would like to thank all for exploring this topic. I used to take a categorical view that all state-church entanglements are bad. I have changed my views somewhat after reading books like Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom by Lutheran theologian Peter Leithart, Jesus Through the Centuries: His Place in the History of Culture by Jaroslav Pelikan, and History of Christianity by Paul Johnson. I now think that such entanglements are not uniformly bad throughout history. We may be too close to the situation in Russia and it may be completely unfair to concentrate on the ROC; however, at the moment Moscow is indeed the elephant in the room. Imagine, Moscow acting as any kind of brake on Constantinople before 1991!

In any case, I am taking my lead from the warning made by Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfayev) at the end of his famous essay Atheism and Orthodoxy in Modern Russia:

"he Orthodox Church should play a key role in this spiritual rebirth. But this can happen only after it has become a truly national Church: not the Church of the State (whatever the State is), but the Church, of the nation, of the people. To become such, the Church must come out of its shell, must learn to speak the language that the people speak, must face the demands of society and answer them adequately.

At the present time our Church is struggling to find its new identity in post-Communist and post-atheist Russia. There are, it seems to me, two main dangers. The first is that of a return to the pre-revolutionary situation, when there was a State Church which became less and less the Church of the nation. If, at some stage in the development of society, such a role would be offered to the Church by the State, it would be a huge mistake to accept it. In this case the Church will be again rejected by the majority of the nation, as it was rejected in 1917. The seventy years of Soviet persecution were an experience of fiery purgatory for the Russian Church, from which it should have come out entirely renewed.

The most dangerous error would be not to learn from what happened and to return to the pre-revolutionary situation, as some members of the clergy wish to do nowadays.

The second danger is that of militant Orthodoxy, which would be a post-atheist counterpart of militant atheism. I mean an Orthodoxy that fights against Jews, against masons, against democracy, against Western culture, against enlightenment. This type of Orthodoxy is being preached even by some key members of the hierarchy, and it has many supporters within the Church. This kind of Orthodoxy, especially if it gains the support of the State, may force Russian atheism to withdraw temporarily to the catacombs. But Russian atheism, will not be vanquished until the transfiguration of the soul and the need to live according to the Gospel have become the only message of the Russian Orthodox Church." (my emphasis)

I used to easily access this essay on Metropolitan Hilarion's official website. I find it easier now to find it referenced by blogs, even heterodox ones.
http://abyssum.org/2014/12/15/the-past-and-present-of-the-russian-orthodox-church-contains-some-valuable-lessons-for-us-roman-catholic-in-the-papacy-of-pope-francis/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 04:22:51 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline mabsoota

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,859
  • Kyrie eleison
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox (Coptic)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2014, 04:48:09 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands, and probably would as lief be a Greek in New Netherlands.

he used to be dutch.
now he's a world citizen, like myself, except he already knows more languages and he's half my age!
 :o

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2014, 04:56:25 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands, and probably would as lief be a Greek in New Netherlands.
I believe he knows Greek, but I don't think he is Greek. I seem to recall him being a convert in a Russian Orthodox parish. I believe he was a catechumen when I started posting here.  I'm sure he will eventually show up and end the suspenseful speculation.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2014, 05:01:03 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands, and probably would as lief be a Greek in New Netherlands.
I believe he knows Greek, but I don't think he is Greek. I seem to recall him being a convert in a Russian Orthodox parish. I believe he was a catechumen when I started posting here.  I'm sure he will eventually show up and end the suspenseful speculation.

Or revel in it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline eddybear

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,097
  • Faith: Orthodox, awaiting Chrismation
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Sourozh
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2014, 05:15:50 PM »
This thread is of interest to me, as the only Orthodox Church close enough to where I live, that I could possibly visit, is Russian. The issue of collaboration is one that has concerned me.

I was going to write a bit about the state church here in the UK, but even though we're the state church, it isn't really collaboration. Indeed, bishops are sometimes very critical of government. But even with the degree of intertwined-ness that we have here, I think it is bad for the Anglican church. We have the crazy situation where the Archbishop of Canterbury is chosen by the Prime Minister, albeit from a shortlist prepared by the Church, regardless of the PM's personal religious views, but affected by political views and the desire to win votes. (That is a comment about the prime ministerial office in general - not a specific comment about the current PM. Hope that's OK in this non-political forum)

It has also in the past been very bad news for non-Anglican churches, with historic persecution of Catholics and non-conformists, though hopefully those days are consigned to the past now.


« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 05:21:21 PM by eddybear »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2014, 05:20:37 PM »
Again, a modern Western is going to have a very specific view on this, but that's (in my opinion) because we have a history of very bad leaders. It's natural to want to keep rulers away from our beliefs. But it's also a natural progression to wanting no rulers at all and no rules. In other words, I see the modern democratic "cure" as a natural continuation of the disease that resulted from past trauma -- the real cure would be returning to the trauma and applying very good leaders.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 05:42:23 PM »
I wonder how much we are influenced by our view of the role of the Holy Spirit in all this. What if the Holy Spirit exercises another option other than guiding us? What if the Holy Spirit at times tolerates what we do in His name?

Offline Georgii

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 458
  • Holy Martyr Afra, pray to God for us!
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR, German episcopate
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 06:05:08 PM »
What if the Holy Spirit at times tolerates what we do in His name?

That would account for a lot of what I have observed and experienced recently.

Edit: And not just recently.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:05:45 PM by Georgii »
my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboration with the State
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 06:59:18 PM »
To put the current situation into context, here is a report on the anti-American mood that has gripped Russia.

http://observer.com/2014/12/russians-rage-against-america/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:00:12 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 07:24:34 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands

Interesting. I'm not a Greek, though. The furthest away my ancestors have been living since the dawn of time is in a village 6 miles away. My ancestry isn't very exotic or cosmopolitan.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:25:28 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 07:28:24 PM »
I'm pretty sure he's a Greek in the Netherlands

Interesting. I'm not a Greek, though. The furthest away my ancestors have been living since the dawn of time is in a village 6 miles away. My ancestry isn't very exotic or cosmopolitan.
Shhh!  I was about to surmise that you descended from the Qin Dynasty and are 12th in line to the Emperorship of China!
God bless!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2014, 12:53:52 PM »
Again, a modern Western is going to have a very specific view on this, but that's (in my opinion) because we have a history of very bad leaders. It's natural to want to keep rulers away from our beliefs. But it's also a natural progression to wanting no rulers at all and no rules. In other words, I see the modern democratic "cure" as a natural continuation of the disease that resulted from past trauma -- the real cure would be returning to the trauma and applying very good leaders.

I can think of many passages in the Holy Bible that would caution us against Plato's philosopher kings or kings who are divinely appointed.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • Monahos.net: "Lawful Evil"; OC.net: "Chaotic Evil"
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: The religious implications of Collaboartion with the State
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2014, 01:16:49 PM »
Again, a modern Western is going to have a very specific view on this, but that's (in my opinion) because we have a history of very bad leaders. It's natural to want to keep rulers away from our beliefs. But it's also a natural progression to wanting no rulers at all and no rules. In other words, I see the modern democratic "cure" as a natural continuation of the disease that resulted from past trauma -- the real cure would be returning to the trauma and applying very good leaders.

I can think of many passages in the Holy Bible that would caution us against Plato's philosopher kings or kings who are divinely appointed.

I also don't think kings are a suitable form of leadership, altho I'm sure you can also think of many biblical passages that promote them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy