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Author Topic: 5 Year 'Lifespan' of a Convert?  (Read 39925 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #225 on: October 07, 2010, 12:31:58 PM »


Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

I don't know "why" in terms of the number, but I do know that the decree comes from the apostolic canons.
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tuesdayschild
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« Reply #226 on: October 07, 2010, 01:01:03 PM »


Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

I don't know "why" in terms of the number, but I do know that the decree comes from the apostolic canons.

Where exactly? http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #227 on: October 07, 2010, 01:13:17 PM »


Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

I don't know "why" in terms of the number, but I do know that the decree comes from the apostolic canons.

I was under the impression that that was a Russian canon...? Though I admit that I've never seen the specific canon on this.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #228 on: October 07, 2010, 02:08:54 PM »


Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

I don't know "why" in terms of the number, but I do know that the decree comes from the apostolic canons.

Where exactly? http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

I don't see it in that list. Change my "know" to a "think."
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #229 on: October 07, 2010, 02:53:12 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

It may have been the Diocesan Bishops or even the priest's standard rule (canon). It is also possible that the parish priest selected the three Sunday rule just for Thomas. Nothing wrong in any of that as I do believe that the clergy do get the authority (and hopefully the ability) to discern the application of principles that are behind the canons. The principle here starts with the fact that , as free persons, we have the power to decide whether we will cooperate with God and to what extent. However, it was the Lord Himself who told us that without communion one does not have life. Ergo, if one does not do what the Lord said is a requisite for life in the Body, one has distanced or excommunicated himself from the Body.

It may be the practice in some Churches to confess/commune the laity one, two or four times a year to still be considered a part of the Body. Please note that the clergy do have to commune at each DL. It is clearly the case that their liturgical functions require them to partake but it is also true that they are no different from the laity before the chalice. So, I do agree with Father Schmemann of blessed memory (our modern Chrysostom) that it is a scandal to expect so little from the laity, to so drastically separate the "worthiness" of the clergy from that of the laity, and to treat the laity as if they are assumed to be incapable of being forgiven and communed by the virtue of the DL itself  (along with the usual preparations that go along with attendance AND communion at the DL).
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« Reply #230 on: October 07, 2010, 03:23:20 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?
I think it has something to do with the symbolism of three as representing a fullness of something--in this case, time.
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Thomas
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« Reply #231 on: October 07, 2010, 05:35:32 PM »

I don't know why, it may be in the canons? I follow it because this is what my catechist priest told me some 20 years ago and I trust him as my spiritual father.

Thomas
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« Reply #232 on: October 08, 2010, 11:26:16 AM »

I don't know why, it may be in the canons? I follow it because this is what my catechist priest told me some 20 years ago and I trust him as my spiritual father.

Thomas

It is a Canon of the Church. I've been doing a study of the Canons and just read this one in fact, but for the life of me, I cannot remember where it is though. (sorry if I happen across it I'll post it for reference but considering the number of Canons this might be unlikely to happen...lol!

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« Reply #233 on: October 08, 2010, 11:35:20 AM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?
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« Reply #234 on: October 08, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »

 Well I just "had" to look it up, but couldn't find the exact Canon I ran across recently. (the indexes aren't much help sometimes) But I did find this Canon, which is not the exact Canon I was thinking of.

Anyways, here's the whole thing:



Whenever a Bishop goes from one city to another city, or from one province to another province, for the sake of vaunt with a view to having eulogies bestowed upon him, or to appearing to be devoted to the religion, and desires to stay there too long a time, and the Bishop of that city is not an experienced teacher, we decree that he shall not treat the latter scornfully, and deliver sermons too continuously, and thereby endeavor to bring disgrace and ignominy upon the Bishop of that place. For this excuse has been wont to cause trouble, and such cunning rascality shows that he is endeavoring to court and to usurp the other’s benefice, and will not hesitate to abandon the church assigned to him and to step over into the other one. The time, therefore, for this must be fixed (since it has been deemed to be nothing short of inhuman and rude not to welcome a visiting Bishop]. Remember that in time past our fathers judged that if any layman staying in a city three Sundays should fail to attend church for three weeks in succession, he should be denied communion. If, therefore, this has been made a law as respects laymen, no Bishop must or ought or can without disadvantage stay away from his own church for any great length of time, and grieve the laity entrusted to him, unless he be under some grave necessity or in some difficult situation.
- The 11th Canon of the Council of Sardica

I have several copies of the Canons, including The Rudder, which all has footnotes and references to other Canons that refer to same subject but there's a bunch of them. This is the basic idea though, though it's technically not the one I ran across the other day.

NP
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« Reply #235 on: October 08, 2010, 11:49:40 AM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?

It depends on what the practice of your priest and your parish happens to be. If one were interpreting these Canons strictly, technically you'd have to confess before Communing again. But don't try and apply the Canons to yourself. Follow the practice of your priest, bishop and jurisdiction. The OCA tends to apply this Canon more strictly than other. The GOA applies it loosely but has a completely different policy. And some OCA parishes do things different still.

I think most clergy would only apply the Canon strictly if a person was merely being lazy about coming to Church. (I don't feel like getting up early) But again each parish may or may not have a different practice and even then, if one's spiritual father/mother is outside the parish you should dowhat he/she advices. In the end, and it sounds like a cop-out answer but you should "ask your priest".

NP

PS: sorry for all the edits/erros but my keyboard is being fussy today...lol!

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:52:35 AM by NorthernPines » Logged
tuesdayschild
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« Reply #236 on: October 08, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?

Truffle shuffle?
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #237 on: October 08, 2010, 01:15:31 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?

Truffle shuffle?

ROFL. Or an awful waffle. Either one will do.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #238 on: October 08, 2010, 02:05:24 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?

It depends on what the practice of your priest and your parish happens to be. If one were interpreting these Canons strictly, technically you'd have to confess before Communing again. But don't try and apply the Canons to yourself. Follow the practice of your priest, bishop and jurisdiction. The OCA tends to apply this Canon more strictly than other. The GOA applies it loosely but has a completely different policy. And some OCA parishes do things different still.

I think most clergy would only apply the Canon strictly if a person was merely being lazy about coming to Church. (I don't feel like getting up early) But again each parish may or may not have a different practice and even then, if one's spiritual father/mother is outside the parish you should dowhat he/she advices. In the end, and it sounds like a cop-out answer but you should "ask your priest".

NP

PS: sorry for all the edits/erros but my keyboard is being fussy today...lol!



I do not think that "ask your priest" is a cop-out answer. It is the only good answer there is because Canon 11 of Sardica, indeed most canons (if not all), are nothing but rules that were in place to take care of problems that had popped up at the time of the rules were enacted. The problem was generally a deviation from a practice that was understood to have been reflective of an underlying principle. In this instance, the Fathers of Sardica tried to justify a rule on limiting absences of a Bishop from his church and cited a long-standing rule that applied to laity staying away from church/communion. This long-standing rule should not be a surprise because we do know that the principle of communion is laid out in the Holy Scriptures. It is clear from the Scriptures and the practice of the Apostolic Church that everybody (laity and clergy alike) were supposed to commune at least weekly and actually did so. Apparently, at some point between the New Testament Church and the enactment of the three Sundays rule, the laity strayed away from the principle and practice of the Church and the Church felt compelled to established a minimum--that of three Sundays. We all know that, due to historic circumstances, the Church kept lowering the minimum number of Sundays, and imposing more rigorous pre-communion requirements to compensate for this. Such a development certainly was far removed from the principle established by the Lord and His Apostles, and certainly untenable for a Church that prides herself to be Holy, Apostolic and Catholic. Fortunately, thanks to theologians in Greece and, of course, Father Schmemann of blessed memory, we have rediscovered the principle and the true, unadulterated Orthodox practice. So, many Churches today encourage frequent communion and teach that the willful separation of oneself from the Chalice constitutes self-excommunication. The problem with putting this into practice is that frequency of the Holy Mystery  of Penance/Communion/Reconciliation cannot be the same for everyone. Thus, the father Confessor, in conjunction with the Priest (if the two are not the same), must establish an individualized rule for each person, depending on the needs of the person. It may be OK to start from one common rule (such as confession at least every six to eight weeks if a regular communicant) with the all important caveat that if one does/does not do x, y, and z, he must go to Confession before communion, period. So, "talk to the Priest" is actually the only good answer there is. You may end up going to confession every week, once every month or every two months--as long as you attend Church and take Communion each week (the desired praxis of any Orthodox anyway). Unless of course, you do fall short in a serious way or miss Church/Communion deliberately, to include deciding on your own that you are not worthy.
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« Reply #239 on: October 09, 2010, 03:47:40 AM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

Why three Sundays, I wonder?  Why not two or four?

If you're going to pick a number for anything in the Orthodox Church, 3 is usually a good bet Wink
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Thomas
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« Reply #240 on: October 11, 2010, 12:43:31 PM »

When I catechized, My priest told me that "It is important to remember that if you fail to attend the Sunday Divine Liturgy for three Sundays in a row without good reason you have excommunicated yourself from the Church." I always thought that to be interesting that we are usually the real excommunicators not Church for we fail to go and be in communion (co-union) with the Church.

Thomas

If I miss the three Sundays in a row and come back on the fourth Sunday do I need to do something special?

It depends on what the practice of your priest and your parish happens to be. If one were interpreting these Canons strictly, technically you'd have to confess before Communing again. But don't try and apply the Canons to yourself. Follow the practice of your priest, bishop and jurisdiction. The OCA tends to apply this Canon more strictly than other. The GOA applies it loosely but has a completely different policy. And some OCA parishes do things different still.

I think most clergy would only apply the Canon strictly if a person was merely being lazy about coming to Church. (I don't feel like getting up early) But again each parish may or may not have a different practice and even then, if one's spiritual father/mother is outside the parish you should dowhat he/she advices. In the end, and it sounds like a cop-out answer but you should "ask your priest".

NP

PS: sorry for all the edits/erros but my keyboard is being fussy today...lol!



I believe you would go to confession prior to communion.

THOMAS
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