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Author Topic: Pope pledges to end Orthodox rift  (Read 10280 times) Average Rating: 0
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rosborn
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2005, 09:49:35 PM »

(This post is made as an answer to Rosborn)

Wow, that is bad.

Maybe you can suggest how RCC that prides herself on the "centralized rule" can have that sort of things occuring?


It is bad but is also the reality that we faithful Roman Catholics have to live under.

I have no suggestion.  The reality in Rome is not the reality in the U.S. which, again, is why I lurk on this forum and always keep studying Orthodoxy.  My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism.  I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church.  That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups.  This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S.   The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR.  And so forth.  It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert.  You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions.  That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church.  I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

I will answer the remainder of your excellent post tomorrow.

Peace,

Rob
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« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2005, 12:55:51 AM »

I think there is room in Catholicism for some flexibility on dogmatic issues.  It has to be recalled that before the schism there was a great deal of doctrinal difference between West and East, but it existed for hundreds of years before and communion was maintained.  Even in Catholicism there's a great deal of theological variety.  John Paul II was a phenomenologist, Benedict is a Thomist.  General trends aside, no one system has a monopoly.

While I don't think any of the Catholic dogmas are going to (or should!) change, thier interpritation has a dynamic, and in some ways very economic, character (one need only look at how Catholic ecclesiology has developed since VaticanII).  And I think that the pre-scism Church can serve as a model for restoring unity.
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« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2005, 06:04:44 AM »

 
Quote
My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism. I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church. That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups. This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S. The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR. And so forth. It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert. You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Greek Church (in America) is in full communion with the OCA as thus compromise a single church (with seperate administrations). The ROCOR is not an off shoot of the OCA (nor vice versa). The short version of the story is that Moscow was in charge of all the Orthodox parishes in the United States in terms of administration until the Russian Revolution (which left Moscow unable to continue its administration of the U.S.). That left each old world jurisdiction to pick up the care of their communities in America. The Russian administration that was left over here formed what was then called the Metropolia (and is now known as the OCA). The ROCOR was made up primarily of the immigrants fleeing the Soviet Union immediantly following the revolution - but was created to serve the worldwide Russian community (including those in America) not just America (like the OCA). Because of that overlap the situation exists in America of OCA and ROCOR, but with the exception of extremists (on either side) both see eathother as Orthodox. The ROCOR has always maintained communion with at least some of the other local Churches (and has always been in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem). So in the end the Greek Church, the OCA and ROCOR are all the same Orthodox Church - the difference comes down to local custom.

This problem exists to a lesser extent in the RCC even today actually. For example there are Byzantine Catholic Churches in every big city in America, yet they have their own administration and bishops, seperate from the local Latin Catholics. Also in times past in America there was a large amount of ethnic tension between French, Irish, German and Polish Catholics - many towns (even small ones!) having a parish for each. Give the Orthodox 100 years and they will all be melting pot Americans similar to the RCC.

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That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

Such a statement as the RCC has no grace needs some qualification and context. God can work miracles and bestow His grace wherever He wills. Such a statement though (in such strong terms) is a safe guard against espousing the branch theory which denies the article of the creed "in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church." The statement shouldn't be taken as a condemnation of the RCC to the point that there is nothing good and redemptive within her. Most Catholics (and to an extent high-church protestants) who come to Orthodoxy already have a deep love and veneration for the Mother of God, the saints, the fathers, liturgical prayer etc. Baptism into Orthodoxy isn't a rejection of the RCC, but it is a fulfiment of it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 06:10:46 AM by Silouan » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2005, 07:02:21 PM »



It is bad but is also the reality that we faithful Roman Catholics have to live under.

I have no suggestion. The reality in Rome is not the reality in the U.S. which, again, is why I lurk on this forum and always keep studying Orthodoxy. My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism. I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church. That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups. This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S. The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR. And so forth. It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert. You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions. That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

I will answer the remainder of your excellent post tomorrow.

Peace,

Rob

Quote
That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups.
In my reading and experience SSPX is far from a being just a splinter group. The last membership estimate I saw showed 150,000 active faithful as of 1988. However there are undoubtedly more as that statistic is 17 years old and their is no official way of becoming a member of SSPX unless you are clergy so it is very difficult to count the laity. SSPX also has three seminaries.  While I admit that SSPX is quite small compared to the millions of RC faithful worldwide it is far from being just a splinter group. The members are devoted and SSPX is growing. Most RCs who take their faith seriously, sadly very few, will immediately have some idea who SSPX is and I think many "conservative" RCs feel more than a bit of sympathy or attraction to these "hardliners." They cause more than a bit of discomfort for the American RC church, particularly since the Society is so active in the U.S., and are like that intelligent annoying student who often proves the teacher wrong.
The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.
I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.
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« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2005, 08:05:27 PM »

I think that Orthodox Church is facing a problem in the new world where we have a mixed population of "cradle" and converts; where "cradle" Orthodox, in a lot of cases do not wish to do anything "churchy" in english. I think that compromize should be found one way or another, because this situation should be solved soon. Orthodox problems are more of technical problems (so to speak). Calendar issue, Parallel Hiearchy and of course - how to treat the question of ecumenism. Also we have issues with some of the hiearchs doing bad things-simonial things.


Truth is, all religious bodies have problems because they are run by human beings.

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In all of these I have my view but, I am not opposed to other views (this is, in my case a very recent developement).

We all need to learn more about each other.  The more we learn the more we can be accepting of the position of another.


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Now, what I wanted to say is that I am sort of an eclusivist - Orthodoxy containts all of the truth and no one else can be and should be even compared.

I used to feel the same way about the Roman Catholic Church.  Now, I feel that the fullness of the truth is somewhere locked between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  Combined, though it is unlikely, the two could be a force to truly change the world.

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(Many of my views were developed from reading. I was not able - due to work - to go to the Church for most of the year, every year for the last 4 years. I lived in Saudi Arabia so... That is to say that since I turned towards Orthodoxy I went to the Church (obviously) only when I was on leave. So I have aquired many Zealot like characteristics, that now in the real world have to be purged and refined. I am saying this, so that what I am going to say next does not seem too strange. Also, I am only a cathecumen, who lacks Church experience and love towards anything non-Orthodox. But, that is all being refined now, and who knows, I might one day actually admit that there are good people outside OC Smiley )

I hope so! <smile>

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So, I tend to safeguard the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.

That the way it should be.  If you are Orthodox then you should safeguard the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.  However, you should also respect those who are Roman Catholic because they also believe the Roman Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth.  You see, when I became Roman Catholic 12 years ago I had no idea that the Orthodox Church even existed.  I was not raised in any faith as a child and spent brief period of time in the Episcopal Church.  For obvious reason I left the Episcopal Church.  I read a book about denomination in the United States written by Huston Smith.  In the book he wrote that the Roman Catholic Church was the original Christian church.  After my experience in the Episcopal Church I wanted to be in the original Christian Church.  So, I became Roman Catholic.  Prior to my conversion I read a lot of vintage and historical books about the Roman Catholic Church.  I loved what I read and assumed that the modern Roman Catholic Church was like the historic Church.  It didn't take long for me to realize that it simply wasn't so.

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Of late, listening to many members of the others communities I started to think that, well, satan is doing everything that will hurt everybody, just the way he always did. The target remains the same, only weapon and tactics have changed.

Satan is at the root of all evil, including breaking up the Church.

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So, it is not enough that he has succed to divide the Christendom into this rather "pathetic" picture of "free for all" "comedy" of basic doctrines of our faith, but he has to do even more. It does not matter what satan does, God will always find the way to get the people towards Himself. This is why satan now attacks all, the way he does. If you notice, all of us have been attacked by means of introduction of new things. Now new things are not necessarily bad, but new things that are so wrong are. I mean RCC is being attacked one way, Anglicans the other, Lutherans third... and so on. In all of the "traditional" western communities the attack is against that tradition. In all evangelical communities, the attack is making them look like... I don't even know what they resemble anymore. Now Orthodoxy, well we have our own little issues, but I tend to think that they are nothing like the rest.

True.  Orthodoy's issues revolve around trying to maintain the truth not in adopting innovative ideas.  Yet, the Orthodox Church does struggle with certain modern notions like artificial contraception.

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One thing that brought me to Orthodoxy was the fact that, even for all those attacks of the last 2000 years, and especially last 600, Orthdoxy did not change. We were hit and hit hard. We do suffer some consequences of that hit but as a whole Orthodox Church did not change. No new doctrines to make turks or communists happy was introduced, even both of those did try to force the Church to do so.

Again, this is true.  However, things like artificial contraception and allowing up to three marriages is not in keeping with historic Christianity.  Don't get me wrong, annulments in the Roman Catholic Church are out of control and many Catholics use artificial contraception but the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church condemns these things

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I guess, my point is that the separation from Orthodoxy is manifested in all non-Orthodox communities the same way. It is just the degree of separation that influences how big the manifestation will be. This manifestation being introduction of "let make the world happy" (you can use TV instead of the word World).

No doubt.  Yet, the Roman Catholic Church is as old as the Orthodox Church and was never exactly like the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, there was always "some" degree of separation between the two bodies.

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In the end, I think that all this was going to happen. All this has to happen. Satan is making an parody of values and morality in the world. Nothing is sacred anymore, everything is open for our deliberation. We are gods. We can do anything we want. Just yesterday one of the friends friends friend commented that she does not believe in God because that is "so not cool". I just crossed myself, and told her that she is a moron. I know I should have not done it, but the other option was me smashing her head in.. and that just is "so not cool"

She is a moron but you still need to pray for her.  I'm sure she'll turn around some day, especially when confronted with a crisis.

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The fact that we have "instant information- just add buttons" of this information age, is making all this rotting just more visible. The civilization is killing herself.

At the same time the internet has been very instrumental in leading people to the truthy of Orthodoxy.  Really, it's all in how you use the information age.

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One of my great friends, who is enviromental scientist for Australian Government said to me ages ago:"We do not need God to destroy this planet, we will do so in 50 years, if this rape continues-even without increase of tempo or population". This world is empty, always was. To use the words of Brad Pitt in the movie fight club:"All these people that work the jobs that they do not like, so they can buy the things that they do not need".

I am an environmental scientist myself (a geologist) and I could disagree with your friend more.  God created the earth and I think it takes a real lack of humility to think that we can destroy what God has created.  The earth is very resiliant.  Still, we have to be good stewards of what God has given us.

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So, I do not think that what you feel is nothing new. It was felt by many and is and will be.

True.  The early Christians were certain that they were living in the end times.

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The question remains, what are we to do?

Remain faithful.

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I say, pray and fast and do more of this that we ever did.

Absolutely!  We need to pray and fast - like never before.

Fixed quotes. John
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:29:56 AM by prodromos » Logged
rosborn
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« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2005, 08:15:54 PM »

In my reading and experience SSPX is far from a being just a splinter group. The last membership estimate I saw showed 150,000 active faithful as of 1988. However there are undoubtedly more as that statistic is 17 years old and their is no official way of becoming a member of SSPX unless you are clergy so it is very difficult to count the laity. SSPX also has three seminaries. While I admit that SSPX is quite small compared to the millions of RC faithful worldwide it is far from being just a splinter group. The members are devoted and SSPX is growing. Most RCs who take their faith seriously, sadly very few, will immediately have some idea who SSPX is and I think many "conservative" RCs feel more than a bit of sympathy or attraction to these "hardliners." They cause more than a bit of discomfort for the American RC church, particularly since the Society is so active in the U.S., and are like that intelligent annoying student who often proves the teacher wrong.

I would question those numbers.  The SSPX communities in my area are very small in number, much like the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.  The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
 
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The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.

I believe I have already said as much.  Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day.  It is not pretty and it is very frustrating.  That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own.  Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception.  As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism.  I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.

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I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.

I'll grant you that.  The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world.  It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about.  However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church.  As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church.  However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth.  If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.

Fixed quotes. John
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:31:18 AM by prodromos » Logged
Sabbas
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« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2005, 09:04:46 PM »



I would question those numbers. The SSPX communities in my area are very small in number, much like the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
 

The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.

I believe I have already said as much. Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day. It is not pretty and it is very frustrating. That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own. Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception. As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism. I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.


I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.

I'll grant you that. The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world. It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about. However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church. As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church. However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth. If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.



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I would question those numbers.

This is where I got my numbers http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:qgXyZWEBvfkJ:www.adherents.com/Na/i_s.html+adherents.com+Society+of+St.Pius+X&hl=en

According to SSPX  http://www.sspx.org/ in the U.S. they have:

50 priests

4 deacons

12 brothers

61 seminarians

24 sisters

850 Third Order members

103 chapels

16 priories

3 houses of formation

4 retreat houses

23 schools & 1 college

1 publishing house: Angelus Press
 

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The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
What specifically are you referring to? I admit I have never met an SSPX priest to discuss such things but I have an older sister who is in SSPX and they very much believe that they are a part of the Roman Catholic church and that the RC church everywhere has the Mysteries. At least that is what I have heard.

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I believe I have already said as much. Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day. It is not pretty and it is very frustrating. That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own. Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception. As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism. I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.
What jurisdiction said artificial contraception is okay? OCA? AA? I can't think of any other jurisdiction making such a statement and have a hard time believe these two jurisdictions would make such a statement. Having said that there are, from what I have been told by a female relative, Protestant, who has had artificial contraception told me that there are methods that now exist that do not necessitate loss of life, death of embryos, for it to work and that is what she used.
I don't think any Orthodox jurisdiction should say artificial contraception is okay as that can be taken as blanket statement for methods that do result in loss of life and it just seems irresponsible to disagree with the RC chuch on this. The RC church always seems to have explored these issues for us Wink

Quote
I'll grant you that. The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world. It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about. However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church. As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church. However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth. If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.
I pray that you will see the light soon. I think you should ask yourself do I believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? that the Holy Spirit has some origin or eternal procession from the Son the same as the Father? do I believe in created Grace? that St.Peter is the Rock of the Church? that the Papacy is somehow guarded from every fallilng into error in matters of faith? etc. I went through a lot of what you are stuggling with particularly when I read various essays by RC apologists. I studied and I came to the conclusion most, if not all of the quotes supporting these heretical teachings were taken out of context and that there is no basis for these teachings in Holy Tradition. If you come to the conclusion that you believe what the Orthodox Church teaches then I think it is safe to say that you are not just running from the chaos of the American RC church.
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« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2005, 09:14:51 PM »

Quote
What specifically are you referring to? I admit I have never met an SSPX priest to discuss such things but I have an older sister who is in SSPX and they very much believe that they are a part of the Roman Catholic church and that the RC church everywhere has the Mysteries. At least that is what I have heard.


There are many SSPX who do not believe that the pope is the "real" pope.  In other words, they are sedevacantists.

Quote
What jurisdiction said artificial contraception is okay? OCA? AA? I can't think of any other jurisdiction making such a statement and have a hard time believe these two jurisdictions would make such a statement.  Having said that there are, from what I have been told by a female relative, Protestant, who has had artificial contraception told me that there are methods that now exist that do not necessitate loss of life, death of embryos, for it to work and that is what she used.

Well, I know of at least one OCA priest who said that he has counceled his parishioners to use artificial comtraception.  I have spoken with an Antiochian Orthodox woman who said that her parish allows the use of artificial contraception.  Two different jurisdictions in which parish priests allow their parishioners to use artificial contraception.  I know that ROCOR is steadfast against this but I don't know about the rest of the jurisdictions.  Listen, I'm not trying to stir things up.  I'm merely stating what I have learned.  Heck, there are even Orthodox apologists on the internet who say that the use of artificial contracpetion is okay if you're married.  I'm only repeating what I have been told.

Quote
I don't think any Orthodox jurisdiction should say artificial contraception is okay as that can be taken as blanket statement for methods that do result in loss of life and it just seems irresponsible to disagree with the RC chuch on this. The RC church always seems to have explored these issues for us Wink

Well, this is one area in which the Roman Catholic Church has held firm and that is admirable.

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I pray that you will see the light soon. I think you should ask yourself do I believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? that the Holy Spirit has some origin or eternal procession from the Son the same as the Father? do I believe in created Grace? that St.Peter is the Rock of the Church? that the Papacy is somehow guarded from every fallilng into error in matters of faith? etc. I went through a lot of what you are stuggling with particularly when I read various essays by RC apologists. I studied and I came to the conclusion most, if not all of the quotes supporting these heretical teachings were taken out of context and that there is no basis for these teachings in Holy Tradition. If you come to the conclusion that you believe what the Orthodox Church teaches then I think it is safe to say that you are not just running from the chaos of the American RC church.

See the light soon?  I'm here talking about it with you aren't I.  If I didn't care or weren't seeking the truth I wouldn't even be here.  Sheesh, I hope that counts for "something".

Ditto
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 02:33:20 AM by prodromos » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2005, 09:34:11 PM »

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There are many SSPX who do not believe that the pope is the "real" pope.  In other words, they are sedevacantists.
I believe that these people are no longer in SSPX but have moved on into the SSPV which is sedevacantist. At the SSPX website they have Pope Benedict's photo and a prayer for him posted.

Quote
Well, I know of at least one OCA priest who said that he has counceled his parishioners to use artificial comtraception.  I have spoken with an Antiochian Orthodox woman who said that her parish allows the use of artificial contraception.  Two different jurisdictions in which parish priests allow their parishioners to use artificial contraception.  I know that ROCOR is steadfast against this but I don't know about the rest of the jurisdictions.  Listen, I'm not trying to stir things up.  I'm merely stating what I have learned.  Heck, there are even Orthodox apologists on the internet who say that the use of artificial contracpetion is okay if you're married.  I'm only repeating what I have been told.
Let me try to clarify something that I am confused about: did you mean artifical insemination? I got mixed up in my last post and should have wrote artificial insemination where I wrote artificial contraception.
I am not trying to argue with you about this either but as far as I can tell no Orthodox jurisdiction condones artificial insemination anymore than the RC chuch condones it. There are RC priests and apologists for ariticial insemination the same as there are Orthodox for it.

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See the light soon?  I'm here talking about it with you aren't I.  If I didn't care or weren't seeking the truth I wouldn't even be here.  Sheesh, I hope that counts for "something".
What I was referring to is the moment when you know beyond any doubt that the Orthodox Church is the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. This is what happened to me over a year ago. It was like someone opened a door and a brilliant light shown in and I knew for sure that the Orthodox Church is the True Church. Various others have had a similar experience. One man mentioned in Fr.Seraphim's God's Revelation to the Human Heart had an experience identical to mine.

That was all I meant.
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« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2005, 09:44:11 PM »

Dear Rosborn,

thank you for a wide and comprehensive answer.

I think that talking and understanding without a "blind need" to argue is the most productive way of conversing. I have found that arguments "over the net" are not as productive as we tend to disregard "humanity of the letters".

I wish however to take a second to say a bit more about two things that you have brought up, understandably.


These are artificial contraception and "three marriages".

It is fair to say that by using economy ("management of the created cosmos" or "dealing with creation") Curch is able to "contradict herself".
You are right when you see these as modernist inovations, however we understand them not as modernist but as "houshold management" issues.
It is very important to notice that Contraception is not "positive" also anything but one marriage should not be considered as positive.

Artificial contraception:
Church does not suggest that un-maried people should use it. I have from time to time heard that some single people who are engaged in "pre-marital activities of sexual nature" think that it is OK to use contraception. NO! Church has always maintained that SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE IS NOT ALLOWED. And indeed many still practice this, even though it seems that as a part of modern culture this is not necessary. But we will all give answers and it is not my place to comment on this. Artificial Contraception is not encouriged. It is, however, allowed in certain cases for a "Triangle of Marriage" (being God, Husband and Wife) to come onto use of it. Again, just because it is possible this is not a standard thing and as such is not encouriged. But using the Oikonomia (Economy) Priest and Married couple can come to this solution if there is a need (ussually health reasons-and ussually very very rare).

Three Marriages:
This is a unfortunate term. You have to understand that this is not the norm. This does not mean:" Hey brother it is ok.. you do nothave to take care of your wife.. you do not have to love her.. you still have 2 goes". NO. Orthodox believe that only in love we exist. Faith without love is dead. Theology without love is dead. Life without love is dead. Marriage without love is also dead.
This is why, again using Economy, and after great consideration there is a chance have a divorce granted. Now, the Church states that it will allow up to 3 marriages. This does NOT mean that this will happen likely and easy and to everyone. This is not the rule, rather exemption. Not everyone will be grated this.

Divine Economy goes a long way in Orthodox Church. It is nothing new. So on this point I have to disagree woth you. It is not an inovation. It was always there.

Using divine Economy, Orthodox will allow for even Abortion. Now again this is not the rule, but it can happen. The condition for this (and generally for any case warranting use of Economy) HAS TO BE, buy it nature, A GRAVE CONDITION. Just the fact that Orthodox will say that some things CAN happen, DOES NOT mean that they are OK to happen.

Inovations that I have in mind would be:
Numbering Sacraments the way Latin West does,
Use of some Icons that are of dubious (read incorrect) Iconography (such as that Icon of Most Holy Trinity where God the Father is represented as an old man),
New calendar (even though this is not wrong it does bring anachronism to the Church),
Tendency of some modern Orthodox Scholars to use western methodology to "describe" Orthodox Theology (really, why bother?)... and so on.
Anachronism of Jurisdictional Management in the West (USA, Australia...).

Some of these are nothing we can do for they have been acknowledged and dealt with, and some are being dealt with... some are yet to be dealt with. These are just examples that pop to my mind.


Having said all this, you are free to disagree. Also you are free to remain Roman Catholic. I am rather impressed by your oppeness and honesty.

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« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2005, 10:08:13 PM »

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Having said all this, you are free to disagree. Also you are free to remain Roman Catholic. I am rather impressed by your oppeness and honesty.

Thank you.  I am here to learn and I am indeed open to Orthodoxy.

Peace,

Rob

Ditto
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« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2005, 10:10:51 PM »

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Artificial contraception:
Church does not suggest that un-maried people should use it. I have from time to time heard that some single people who are engaged in "pre-marital activities of sexual nature" think that it is OK to use contraception. NO! Church has always maintained that SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE IS NOT ALLOWED. And indeed many still practice this, even though it seems that as a part of modern culture this is not necessary. But we will all give answers and it is not my place to comment on this. Artificial Contraception is not encouriged. It is, however, allowed in certain cases for a "Triangle of Marriage" (being God, Husband and Wife) to come onto use of it. Again, just because it is possible this is not a standard thing and as such is not encouriged. But using the Oikonomia (Economy) Priest and Married couple can come to this solution if there is a need (ussually health reasons-and ussually very very rare).

Sorry I got mixed up in my last posts and did not respond.
Artificial Contraception is never allowed in the Orthodox Church unless one of the spouses may die. This condition almost never exists so it is extremely rare as sin_valdimirov pointed out. When it comes to a couple complaining about having too many children then that is not a valid condition. Keep your pants on!

Quote
Using divine Economy, Orthodox will allow for even Abortion. Now again this is not the rule, but it can happen. The condition for this (and generally for any case warranting use of Economy) HAS TO BE, buy it nature, A GRAVE CONDITION. Just the fact that Orthodox will say that some things CAN happen, DOES NOT mean that they are OK to happen.

By definition there is no case when the termination of life is okay. The only case in which an "abortion" can take place is if the child can be proven to be dead inside the womb and that does not fit our common definition of abortion anyway.

Quote
Use of some Icons that are of dubious (read incorrect) Iconography (such as that Icon of Most Holy Trinity where God the Father is represented as an old man),
This is a common belief amongst Orthodox and it is unfounded. There is no prohibition of depicting God the Father, though I personally think it can be abused. Here is a good essay on this issue http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm
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« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2005, 10:21:26 PM »

Rosborn, I am here also to learn, my learning process goes the weird way though Grin I say something and the realize that it could be wrong.. then do some research and so on... Whatever the case may be, I do not think (I did just 2 days ago though) that stating what we believe (that is contradictory to our views) is bad. That is to say, I, now, do not mind hearing what others have to say, and especially Roman Catholics and Anglicans. (Oriental Orthodox have enjoyed this "priviledge" from before Grin).
So, as far as I am concern hit it away.  Smiley

Sabas, I was under impression that another time (apart from the one you mention) when Abortion could be approved is when Mothers life is in danger, and in this case only mother can make a decision, is this the case or did I misread?
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« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2005, 11:32:16 PM »

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Sabas, I was under impression that another time (apart from the one you mention) when Abortion could be approved is when Mothers life is in danger, and in this case only mother can make a decision, is this the case or did I misread?
I have not read any official statements regarding this specific case though I have read various OCA priests who argue that in these delicate situations the mother can choose. Of course this is not official Church teaching but the counsel of priests. I respect the priesthood and do not want to set myself up as an authority as I am just a layman trying to help others with what I have heard and read. I would say that in the case of a woman who is certain to die if she gives birth but it is likely the child will live that the woman should give her life for her child. In the case of a woman who is certain to die if she gives birth and it is certian that the child would die in childbirth, though I know of no case in which you can be certain of this, that the woman should choose though I would think the mother should die with her child. These are just my opinions and I am in no place to judge others.
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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2005, 08:36:52 AM »

I am way late on this, but i would just like to add my two cents.  I honestly think that the ultimate intent by the RC church is to make us see the "errors of our ways" and join them...they said reach out, not return to. Not happening, imo. You think the Catholics (as in Pope, cardinals, etc) are going to give up all that they have amassed over the last thousand years or so? Yah right. The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2005, 04:46:18 PM »

The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now. 

So typical and inaccurate. And how would this work? Orthodox don't even allow priests to marry. (Read me carefully). We ordain MARRIED men. There is a difference. Are we to encourage the Roman Catholic Church to allow men who are ALREADY ordained as priests and who have taken vows of celibacy to brake those vows and get married? Think this through. It just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we Orthodox might suggest to Rome that it consider ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? The Latine Rite already has married deacons. Married priest would be a logical outgrowth of this.  Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2005, 05:40:29 PM »

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Now we see the pickle that Rome has gotten herself into.  I mean, if (and it's next to slim; we'll at least the last time I stepped in to a Catholic church) Rome did allow married men to become priests, do we honestly think that all those single priests are going to take it lying down.  Well, that's what happens when you mess with "Tradition" (and I'm saying it like the Jews in the opening theme song of "Fiddler on the Roof.").
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2005, 09:16:35 PM »

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Now we see the pickle that Rome has gotten herself into. I mean, if (and it's next to slim; we'll at least the last time I stepped in to a Catholic church) Rome did allow married men to become priests, do we honestly think that all those single priests are going to take it lying down. Well, that's what happens when you mess with "Tradition" (and I'm saying it like the Jews in the opening theme song of "Fiddler on the Roof.").

Actually, in faithful and orthodox dioceses in the Roman Catholic Church we are seeing a great abundance of young men committing themselves to the celibate life as Roman Catholic priests.  Young men are embracing this calling and defedning this practice.  Besides, I don't see all that much complaining from the Orthodox sideconcerning monks and bishops.  Obviously, as our Lord and Savior indicated, there is a place and role for unmarried men and women in the Kingdom of God.
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« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2005, 09:27:35 PM »

I agree with Rosborn.

The celibacy of the RC priesthood is the last of the problems and issues.
It was there before the split and each to their own.



We have much much bigger fish to fry.
(well, not us really, but those who  work in the "fish and chips" shop).

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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2005, 12:01:15 AM »

I am way late on this, but i would just like to add my two cents.  I honestly think that the ultimate intent by the RC church is to make us see the "errors of our ways" and join them...they said reach out, not return to. Not happening, imo. You think the Catholics (as in Pope, cardinals, etc) are going to give up all that they have amassed over the last thousand years or so? Yah right.

I think the situation isn't nearly as grave as you make it out to be.  You might want to consider reading John Paul II's Ut Unum Sint.  It addresses some of those issues.
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« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2005, 09:00:36 AM »

Typical of what exactly?

Pardon me for not being as clear as I should have been. I did not intend to imply that those who have already taken their vows should be able to up and marry, nor am I unaware that the Orthodox ordain married men as opposed to letting ordained men get married.ÂÂ  You act like i fell off the turnip truck.

However, i still think that if the RC had the same sort of system as the Orthodox, that there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of the...how do i put this nicely...scandal of child and other molestation that seems to be so prevalent in the RC church.ÂÂ  And before you attack me on that, i do realize that it is some bad apples spoiling the bunch, not the norm.ÂÂ  I think it is total hippocracy that they can go on about the sanctity of celibacy when they're have been popes having their protraits painted with their children, having well known mistresses, etc, over the centuries.ÂÂ  Decide, celibate or not.

Yes i think it is a good idea to suggest ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite.

I'm awaiting my blasting now.


The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now.ÂÂ  

So typical and inaccurate. And how would this work? Orthodox don't even allow priests to marry. (Read me carefully). We ordain MARRIED men. There is a difference. Are we to encourage the Roman Catholic Church to allow men who are ALREADY ordained as priests and who have taken vows of celibacy to brake those vows and get married? Think this through. It just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we Orthodox might suggest to Rome that it consider ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? The Latine Rite already has married deacons. Married priest would be a logical outgrowth of this.ÂÂ  Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2005, 07:24:35 PM »

However, i still think that if the RC had the same sort of system as the Orthodox, that there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of the...how do i put this nicely...scandal of child and other molestation that seems to be so prevalent in the RC church.  And before you attack me on that, i do realize that it is some bad apples spoiling the bunch, not the norm.  I think it is total hippocracy that they can go on about the sanctity of celibacy when they're have been popes having their protraits painted with their children, having well known mistresses, etc, over the centuries.  Decide, celibate or not.

Yes i think it is a good idea to suggest ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite.]I'm awaiting my blasting now.

No one is going to blast you. Everyone doesn't have to agree with me! I, also, think that if Rome decided to ordain married men to the priesthood that would be a good thing. However, I do think it is rather typically naive at best to think that having a married clergy will solve the problem of pedopilia in the Roman Catholic Church. Marriage has not cured pedophilia and never will. It is an entirely separating issue. And if you take a look at statistics, most pedophiles are married heterosexual men.  I just don't see having a married parish clergy as the "cure all" for Rome's ills. It might help, it might not. I am not really sure. I know it has not created paradise or perfection in the Orthodox Church.  We had an Orthodox parish about 30 miles from here (jurisdiction unnamed) where the married priest committed pedophilia on a young boy just a couple years ago. And the last I read about the Orthodox Church in Greece, it was ridden with all sorts of sexual scandals: pedophilia, homosexuality and fornicating priests and bishops.  So I am not so sure we can really lecture Rome in this regard. Our system is not  without its problems either. Any history of the Orthodox Church in Russia mentions the tension between the married parish clergy and the celibate monastic clergy. Even our monastic literature often bemoans the fact that monasteries can become places where ambitious men compete with one another to become bishops.  And one final note, has anyone given any thought to how much money it would cost the RCC to have married parish priests? If the priest didn't use any birth control like he is supposed to, he could easily have half to an entire dozen children. He'd have to have a housing allowance. He probably would not want or be able to live at the rectory. The possibility of having a daily Mass with family responsibilities would be vastly curtailed. Since most Orthodox Churches don't have a daily Liturgy (or in America, daily services for that matter), we don't tend to think of these things. But Roman Catholics do, and I am not too convinced they care for us lecturing them on how to fix their church.
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« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2005, 10:11:32 PM »

[ÂÂ  And one final note, has anyone given any thought to how much money it would cost the RCC to have married parish priests? If the priest didn't use any birth control like he is supposed to, he could easily have half to an entire dozen children. He'd have to have a housing allowance. He probably would not want or be able to live at the rectory. The possibility of having a daily Mass with family responsibilities would be vastly curtailed. Since most Orthodox Churches don't have a daily Liturgy (or in America, daily services for that matter), we don't tend to think of these things. But Roman Catholics do, and I am not too convinced they care for us lecturing them on how to fix their church.

Actually Tikhon, I have thought about this quite abit and agree with you.  I was involved in a start up and reviewed many of the budgetting issues related to getting a church off the ground- of which the priest's salary is a key factor...  and reviewed how other faiths do it for learning... and then I realized, in the RC church, the priests aren't married, don't even need life insurance as they have no heirs... No money to put children they don't have through college... it is  huge difference which has ramifications right down to the parish sustainability level.  Some OCA priests I know have a 'lay job' to supplement their income as the parishes they serve are often very small (meaning less than 100 families). On the other hand, the GOA  typically have a history of parishes with several hundred families, so most clergy expect to find a position in a parish like this that can support them.  The model for a 'small parish' , like a start up, or one in a remote area, where the priest may need to supplement income doesn't really exist as a mainstream... and the GOA parishes typically have as goals all of the ethnic programs which take even more time.. leaving less time for a lay job... Net,  married vs. non-married clergy completely changes the entire dynamics of parish support.  The plus side may be that a married clergy structure may attract more into the priesthood.  The minus side is that the salary structure is completely different and totally dependent on having large churches that can support the priest and his family... As for the scandalous activities... that is everywhere, in both churches and has nothing to do with whether the priests are married. The one point is that I was told by someone who has a RC clergy in the family that the RC church prefers homosexual men in the clergy...as this way they don't have to worry about the creation of out of wedlock babies...I don't know how widespread this is, but it was apparently true in one locale....     

In XC, Kizzy


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« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2005, 11:05:23 PM »

Tikhon:  You are right, we don't care for it.  Well, at least I don't.  Catholicism is full of self-loathers.

Kizzy:  To make matters worse contributions from parishiners have plumeted ever since the massive dissent from teachings on contraception in the 70 on.  So long as this remains an issue, married priest's are going to remain out of the picture.

There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.
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« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2005, 11:05:58 PM »

Tikhon:  You are right, we don't care for it.  Well, at least I don't.  Catholicism is full of self-loathers.

Kizzy:  To make matters worse contributions from parishiners have plumeted ever since the massive dissent from teachings on contraception in the 70 on.  So long as this remains an issue, married priest's are going to stay out of the picture.

There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.
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« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2005, 11:11:21 PM »

The one point is that I was told by someone who has a RC clergy in the family that the RC church prefers homosexual men in the clergy...as this way they don't have to worry about the creation of out of wedlock babies...I don't know how widespread this is, but it was apparently true in one locale....

Kizzy,

I realize this is what you were told but nothing could be further from the truth.  What a ludicrous thought!

Rob
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« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2005, 11:17:59 PM »

Quote
There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.

yes, i have a friend who is devoutly RC and who would become a priest in an instant if he could be married first and have a family (since he feels he is called to both to some extent, and is trying to figure out which God wants him to do) - when he and i have talked about differences between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church (my background before becoming Orthodox and his present faith) and married priests came up, as a joke he said he would become Orthodox, get married, become a priest, then return to the RCC and be an RC priest but married (said he read in a book that being married and ordained in another confession that allows it is the only way RC priests can wind up also being married)...he's a silly guy and he meant no harm by it, and of course he said he would never really do it caz he knows how disrespectful it would be to both faiths, but it was a funny moment for us in our talks about our faiths. Smiley 
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« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2005, 11:35:43 PM »

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yes, i have a friend who is devoutly RC and who would become a priest in an instant if he could be married first and have a family (since he feels he is called to both to some extent, and is trying to figure out which God wants him to do) - when he and i have talked about differences between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church (my background before becoming Orthodox and his present faith) and married priests came up, as a joke he said he would become Orthodox, get married, become a priest, then return to the RCC and be an RC priest but married (said he read in a book that being married and ordained in another confession that allows it is the only way RC priests can wind up also being married)...he's a silly guy and he meant no harm by it, and of course he said he would never really do it caz he knows how disrespectful it would be to both faiths, but it was a funny moment for us in our talks about our faiths. Smiley

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2005, 12:41:14 AM »

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.


Ahem! <clearing throat>  Unless this friend lives in Eastern Europe, he cannot be ordained as a married man in an Eastern Catholic parish in the USA. The answer to why this is, is kind of long and complicated, and, from what I have read, resulted more from protests by Irish bishops in the US in the 19th century than it did from Rome purposely creating a double standard.  I don't think the Irish bishops wanted Eastern Rite Catholics in the USA at all. Period. I'm not sure of all the reasons for their negativity, but I know it was there. I think allowing Eastern Rite Catholicism to exist in the USA, both requiring mandatory celibacy of Eastern Rite clergy was Rome's way of creating a compromise and a peaceful solution at the time.
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2005, 01:13:57 AM »

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.


Ahem! <clearing throat>  Unless this friend lives in Eastern Europe, he cannot be ordained as a married man in an Eastern Catholic parish in the USA. The answer to why this is, is kind of long and complicated, and, from what I have read, resulted more from protests by Irish bishops in the US in the 19th century than it did from Rome purposely creating a double standard.  I don't think the Irish bishops wanted Eastern Rite Catholics in the USA at all. Period. I'm not sure of all the reasons for their negativity, but I know it was there. I think allowing Eastern Rite Catholicism to exist in the USA, both requiring mandatory celibacy of Eastern Rite clergy was Rome's way of creating a compromise and a peaceful solution at the time.

Not anymore.  The US Eparchies are starting to restore married clergy at the beheast of the last Pope.  The Eparchy of Parma is just one such example.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2005, 02:44:24 AM »

Not anymore.  The US Eparchies are starting to restore married clergy at the beheast of the last Pope.  The Eparchy of Parma is just one such example

WOW! Well, that is excellent news. I wish the Byzantine Catholics many years and blessings in this endeavor.
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