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Author Topic: Pope pledges to end Orthodox rift  (Read 9374 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 29, 2005, 10:28:39 AM »

Pope pledges to end Orthodox rift

BARI, Italy (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI visited the eastern port of Bari on his first papal trip Sunday and pledged to make healing the 1,000-year-old rift with the Orthodox church a "fundamental" commitment of his papacy.

Benedict made the pledge in a city closely tied to the Orthodox church. Bari, on Italy's Adriatic coast, is considered a "bridge" between East and West and is home to the relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, a 4th-Century saint who is one of the most popular in both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Benedict referred to Bari as a "land of meeting and dialogue" with the Orthodox in his homily at a Mass that closed a national religious conference. It was his first pilgrimage outside Rome since being elected the 265th leader of the Roman Catholic Church on April 19.

"I want to repeat my willingness to assume as a fundamental commitment working to reconstitute the full and visible unity of all the followers of Christ, with all my energy," he said to applause from the estimated 200,000 people at the Mass.

Words aren't enough, he said, adding that "concrete gestures" were needed even from ordinary Catholics to reach out toward the Orthodox.

"I also ask all of you to decisively take the path of spiritual ecumenism, which in prayer will open the door to the Holy Spirit who alone can create unity," he said.

Benedict has said previously that reaching out to the Orthodox and other Christians would be a priority of his papacy, and his call to ordinary Catholics to take the charge as well built on that agenda.

Although a brief, three-hour visit, the trip was Benedict's inaugural pastoral pilgrimage and showed he was following in the much-traveled footsteps of his predecessor, Pope John Paul II.

The most-traveled pope in history, John Paul made 104 foreign pilgrimages and 146 pastoral visits in Italy during his 26-year papacy. John Paul visited Bari in 1984.

Benedict, 78, has said he is looking forward to attending the World Youth Day celebrations in Cologne, in his native Germany, this August -- a trip John Paul had hoped to make himself.

He also has told residents of Castel Gandolfo, the lakeside papal residence in the hills south of Rome, that he would spend the summer months there. The Holy See distinguishes between pastoral visits to Italian cities and visits to Castel Gandolfo, which is Vatican property.

Polish bishops have said they also want Benedict to visit the late pope's homeland.

Benedict flew by helicopter to Bari, near the "heel" of boot-shaped Italy, and waved to the crowds from a white "popemobile," before celebrating the seaside, open-air Mass to close the conference on the Eucharist.

Wearing his bishop's miter and white vestments with Swiss Guards standing at attention at the foot of the altar area, Benedict blessed the faithful, many of whom waved the Vatican's yellow and white flags or white baseball caps handed out by organizers to shield them from the sun.

Security in the city was tight, with the town center and seaside boulevard leading to the Mass site closed to regular traffic. Hundreds of police patrolled the streets, coastal waters were closed to private vessels and the Italian navy ship San Giusto was anchored nearby, officials said.

In his greetings at the start of the Mass, Archbishop Francesco Cacucci of Bari referred to the city's Orthodox ties, saying the arrival of St. Nicholas' bones in 1057 "built a bridge between the East and West that neither time nor divisions have ever demolished."

"Even in these days, many brothers of the eastern churches have been united with us, encouraging us to continue with renewed commitment and enthusiasm on the path of prayer and ecumenical dialogue," the archbishop said.

In a bid to improve relations, the Vatican's top ecumenical official, Cardinal Walter Kasper, proposed this week at the Bari conference to hold a synod, or meeting of Catholic and Orthodox bishops, news reports said.

Father Vladimir Kuciumov, rector of the Russian Orthodox Church in Bari, said Benedict had already made a good start toward improving relations with the Orthodox in some of his inaugural homilies and speeches.

"We hope for the best," he said in a telephone interview Sunday. "We still have to see, but there is a hope to improve our relations."

The Italian media had been speculating that Benedict would use his first pilgrimage in Italy to weigh in on a pressing national issue: upcoming referendums on voiding parts of a new law that restricts assisted fertility treatment in Italy. Italian bishops have urged voters to stay home so the referendums fail to reach quorum.

It seemed more likely though, that Benedict would use an audience with the Italian Bishops' Conference on Monday to make any reference to the issue.



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Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

 
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2005, 01:02:24 PM »

I think one of our patriarchs should publish a list of things that the Roman Catholic Church would have to change before we could have unity.  Sort of like Luther's 95 (?) Thesis.
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2005, 01:22:31 PM »

Quote
Originally Quoted by Landon77:

I think one of our patriarchs should publish a list of things that the Roman Catholic Church would have to change before we could have unity.  Sort of like Luther's 95 (?) Thesis.

Luther's 95 theses are unfortunately thought to challenge key doctrines of the Catholic faith.  On the contrary, the 95 theses primarily attack abuses--in particular, those related with indulgences and salvation.  Luther even declares anathema anyone who does not believe indulgences to be apostolic and holy. 

But this said, I do believe that the Orthodox would be crazy not to create a list of what they believe the Western Church should concede to before any union.  However, I doubt any union is likely to take place soon.  Catholics are not going to give up Papal Infallibility, Papal Authority, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc., and most Orthodox would never think of accepting these; although, some Eastern Catholics have decided to acquiesce while maintaining their Orthodox beliefs.  I think the pope's true plan is to suck in the Orthodox Church little by little by bringing them into the Western Church through Eastern Catholicism.  Evil

But that's just what I think. 
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2005, 01:26:03 PM »

And I think StGeorge is absolutely correct in at least the last two paragraphs above. Vatican I's "catch-22" needs to be addressed first...before anything else.

But that's just what I think (too).

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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2005, 01:29:10 PM »

Eastern Catholics have not maintained Orthodox belief--hence why they are called Catholics. They only use a form of worship that is prevalent in the Eastern Orthodox communion, but have Catholic beliefs.
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2005, 02:20:16 PM »

The Bishops should meet at a decent tavern and have a few brews and brats during their discussions.

Also set up the fine for all whiners, cause the world is full of them.

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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2005, 02:34:32 PM »

Tis a good idea. To rally an old call, "Imbibe!!!" lol.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2005, 04:31:01 PM »

I'd really like to believe otherwise, but I'm strongly inclined to think too much water has gone under the bridge for the entire Latin church to simply return - at least on a legitimate basis.

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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2005, 04:39:50 PM »

Quote

Words aren't enough, he said, adding that "concrete gestures" were needed even from ordinary Catholics to reach out toward the Orthodox.


ISTM that there is no change in tactics really. "Reach out" seems to imply that they stay where they are and pull us in. I could be wrong though. It might be suggesting they reach out and take hold of the hand being extended to pull them out of the mire they're stuck in Wink Grin

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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2005, 04:49:12 PM »

I've got it!  I know how there can be unity!    Grin  The Pope and all his bishops join the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America.  They would do this by making all the changes that the current members of the WR Vicariate have been more than willing to make to be a part of the Orthodox Church.    Afro
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2005, 09:34:58 PM »

More post Vatican II nebulous nonsense. What hubris!
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2005, 12:22:33 AM »

I'd really like to believe otherwise, but I'm strongly inclined to think too much water has gone under the bridge for the entire Latin church to simply return - at least on a legitimate basis.

In my endeavour to become Orthodox, I have had this same thought.  And it is the same thought I have for those of the Protestant faith as well.
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2005, 08:54:40 AM »

Scooter,

Christ is Risen!

Yes, I think that the future is individual conversions - or perhaps small corporate conversions (like a parish from say, the Anglo-Catholics or Old Catholics going over to Orthodoxy.)  There is just too much now regarded as integral to Roman Catholicism which would have to be abandoned - I can't see the Vatican doing that.

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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2005, 10:58:35 AM »

[Words aren't enough, he said, adding that "concrete gestures" were needed even from ordinary Catholics to reach out toward the Orthodox.]

Depends upon what these gestures are.  If he thinks, like his  predecessor that the return of a few stolen relics or Holy items will make the Orthodox Catholics so grateful they will be willing to compromise on doctine or dogma, he really doesn't understand at all.

We shall see just what he means by 'gestures'.

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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2005, 11:57:45 AM »

Some are not afraid and have the acorns to make the first gesture, and there are others who are afraid of their own shadow.

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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2005, 01:56:48 PM »

Let them start with a nice "gesture": the undoing of something that they should have never done; the removal of the Uniat Churches.
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2005, 02:04:14 PM »

Let them start with a nice "gesture": the undoing of something that they should have never done; the removal of the Uniat Churches.

That isn't about to happen considering now that they have moved their headquarters to Kiev they are now pushing into area of Ukraine where the Unia does not exist.  just like I predicted here last year and was attacked for stating it.

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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2005, 02:37:48 PM »

The RC 'organically' has evolved into a total different beast. If we ever do re-unite, it will be a work of the Holy Spirit. I'm probably one of the few here that believes the RC still has grace, but not a "bull's-eye" if you know what I mean. They seriously have to do allot of work fixing their own mess first. They should start by getting rid off that god-awful Novus Ordo and go back to the traditional Latin mass (maybe throw in a few more icons, more incense.. Wink). They should seriously stop with all the bad statues/art/icons that look like they came from the 99-cent store. Stop allowing any moron to stand up on the alter serving communion to others. Stop your parishioners from doing cheesy things like clapping in the middle of the mass. Do something about your church architecture, nobody with good taste and a decent understanding of how a church should look and smell wants to walk into a church that happens to look like a gymnasium also. Stop your priest from sounding like they just got done with a funeral, it's ok to talk and sound like an 'average joe.' Hmmm, what else? Oh yea, throw out all those liberal homo-Leninist priest that have been hiding out in your church that have caused you so much trouble. There is nothing worse you can do to betray Christ than keeping those home wreckers around. Clean your whole house of anyone that intentionally goes out of his or her way to pervert the gospel of Christ. When you do that, that will speak volumes on your willingness to embrace a more traditional Christianity like Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2005, 03:11:00 PM »

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They should seriously stop with all the bad statues/art/icons that look like they came from the 99-cent store.

Those tacky statues look around .99$, but they're really like 40$.

It's almost as bad as trying to buy a Catholic bible. For a cheap hardcover Jerusalem Bible, it costs 60$. For a Calfskin KJV w/apocrypha, it costs $99. I'll take the KJV, thank you; and buy the JB at a used book store (coincidentally, I got la Bible de Jerusalem for 27$ at the Canadian Bible Society).

What's worse is the $100 missals that probably only cost 10-20$ to produce. It's price gouging to the extreme.
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2005, 03:27:09 PM »

Politics are politics, be they secular or religious, they both have their agendas, the "mites" of both sides will have little input, for the bishops are trusted by their flocks to make those decisions.

I do not have the patience needed and have little time for repetative rhetoric as seen here and other places.

Let the OC & RC chess game begin.

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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2005, 06:20:37 PM »

Some are not afraid and have the acorns to make the first gesture, and there are others who are afraid of their own shadow.
You must think very little of the Orthodox, James, if you think that fear is holding us back.
It is the old Rome which lacks "acorns" if she fails to correct her doctrinal errors- it doesn't take "acorns" to perform an empty gesture for the sake of appearances. That's like committing fornication and going to confession saying you missed Mass on Sunday. No "acorns" needed.
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« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2005, 09:47:38 PM »

That discussion is between the Hierarchs, and many Orthodox can't agree on what or if they are errors.

I find it interesting that the MP welcomes a German and denies a Pole, nothing like a little ethnic prejudice to spice things up.

It is going to be interesting, Moscow vs Constantinople, the who's and what's.

I hate spitting contests, but this will be interesting.


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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2005, 10:55:00 PM »

I wouldn't be so sure that ethnic tensions were the sole reason for the MP's coldness towards Rome.  John Paul II seemed IMO to push a little too hard for the tastes of the MP... he wanted to paint himself as the hero reaching out to the evil intolerant Russians. 
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2005, 11:31:23 PM »

I wouldn't be so sure that ethnic tensions were the sole reason for the MP's coldness towards Rome. John Paul II seemed IMO to push a little too hard for the tastes of the MP... he wanted to paint himself as the hero reaching out to the evil intolerant Russians.

You are right.  It had nothing to do with ethnic tensions.  It started with a pope that signed an agreement regarding the former UGCC and then refusing to support that agreement once his Eastern Rite subjects turned their backs on it six weeks into the agreement.  A pope that remained silent while those subjects were retaking the parishes by force rather than giving the paishioners the freedom to vote on where they wanted to be.  Up until that point relations were good.  Of course using the Kazan Icon a a bribe into Russia didn't do much to endear him to the Russians. 

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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2005, 10:48:21 AM »

I think the one thing which has turned a lot of Orthodox off who were willing to go for this ecumenism stuff with good will and with right intentions (quite unlike the closet branch-theorists and syncretists who are enamored with the worldly power and glories of the RCC), is that it's pretty clear that the Vatican has no intention of seriously examining itself and where the Latin Church departed from the "straight and narrow".  In other words, they have no intention whatsoever of "revising the books" and returning to their Orthodox roots, and thus providing a proper basis for re-union.  They're willing to portray this as much as possible (the Pope perhaps "opting" to give his potential fellow Patriarchs a lot of autonomy - but that's the key; "opting to"), at least in some regards (though certainly not in matters liturgical or doctrinal - it seems they still believe that all the Orthodox are concerned about is the Papacy, and that's it), but there is no substance.

- The Pope has no intention of agreeing with St.Photios and the rest of the Orthodox Church that the substance of their filioque dogma (at least as it was often taught and held, historically) was erroneous, and that it was schismatic and a violence against the unity of the Church for Rome to alter the Creed.

- No intention of declairing Vatican I to not simply not in fact be an Ecumenical Council, but to have formulated an outright heresy ("Papal Infallibility", and dogmas pertaining to the absolute authority of the Pope), nor the supposed "infallible definitions" of the Popes on the "Immaculate Conception" and the "Assumption."

- No intention of breaking out of the Frankish "Augustine only" narrowness (and a surprisingly incomplete St.Augustine, if you've ever actually read his works; he's really not so "out there" as some sectarian "Orthodox" polemics try to portray him), and the left overs of barren scholasticism, in favour of the breadth of the Patristic witness (including the Western Fathers, who are plentiful and well worth reading by all, not least of all by their descendents in blood, if not religion.)

etc. etc.

Besides the heretical ways of thinking it has spawned in it's extremes, the ecumenical movement has failed to show any positive fruit in terms of bringing anyone closer to Orthodoxy, most particularly the Roman Catholic Church.

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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2005, 11:23:25 AM »

What does it matter? The Church is inside of us.
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2005, 12:20:43 PM »

What does it matter? The Church is inside of us.

The go become a Protestant and join your local "Christian" church since it is just a "Jesus and me" thing for you.
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2005, 01:29:14 PM »

The go become a Protestant and join your local "Christian" church since it is just a "Jesus and me" thing for you.

Christ's response:

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and is now here where true worshipers will neither worship on this mountain nor in Jerusalem at the temple. But true worshipers will worship in spirit and in truth."

Standard Orthodox (and any Organized Religion) Response:

That's not what He meant. What He meant was The (insert church name here) IS the Spirit and Truth. Now, DO WHAT I SAY!!!! I MUST HAVE OBEDIENCE!!
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2005, 01:39:12 PM »

Tom- I often wonder why you are Orthodox.  Would you like to share that with the rest of us or just continue being a jerk?  Frankly, your comments about the Orthodox Church are rude.   Anyone who even pretends to call himself an Orthodox Christian and still speak like you do should be ashamed of himself. 

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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2005, 01:45:55 PM »

Tom- I often wonder why you are Orthodox. Would you like to share that with the rest of us or just continue being a jerk?

Thanks for your support. Now, what do you find wrong with what I posted? What do you disagree with? Tell me how you would refute the Protestant position?
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2005, 02:03:54 PM »

I always find it amusing when supposed Orthodox people who truly believe that Orthodoxy is the Truth tell Tom that he should go join a Protestant Church and call him a jerk.

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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2005, 02:40:46 PM »

Tom, I think Christ meant that one can't tie worship to one specific locale, especially the Old Covenant land of ethnic Israel (or its Samaritan offshoot). I don't think Christ meant that there was not going to be an empirical visible Body (of people) called the Church in which there is succession in time and space from the apostles and continuity of apostolic doctrine. Christ's statements elsewhere seem to indicate that He does have in mind a visible community of believers against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

I do agree with you, however, that this visible Body can't necessarily for all time be tied to one specific "see"--whether that be Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria or Jerusalem--as it's theoretically possible that in a given location entire congregations may apostasize. Patriarchs of each have certainly embraced heresy at one time or another. I just don't believe that there will (or can) be a complete a universal apostasy involving a discontinuous break with the historic apostolic church.
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« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2005, 06:58:17 PM »

Christ said those who worship in spirit and in TRUTH. And hey, ya know, since lots of people are believing lots of different things, most of which are not true and some of which are damaging to the self, some of them aren;t worshipping in truth, but in falsehood. We've got the Truth, Tom, you and I and all Orthodox Christians who come to worship not only in spirit, but in Truth.

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« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2005, 07:51:25 PM »

What does it matter? The Church is inside of us.
This isn't the only possible rendering of Luke 17:21. The original reads:
"++-Ã +¦+¦ +¦-ü++-Ã -â+¦++ +¦+¦++-Ã  -ë+¦+¦ ++ +¦+¦++-Ã  +¦+¦+¦+¦ +¦+¦++-Ã  +¦+¦-ü ++ +¦+¦-â+¦+++¦+¦+¦ -ä++-Ã  +++¦++-Ã  +¦++-ä++-é -Ã ++-ë++ +¦-â-ä+¦++" and is translated in the King James Version as:
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
However, the second part of the passage "+¦+¦++-Ã  +¦+¦-ü ++ +¦+¦-â+¦+++¦+¦+¦ -ä++-Ã  +++¦++-Ã  +¦++-ä++-é -Ã ++-ë++ +¦-â-ä+¦++" can also be rendered as:
"For behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is in your (plural) midst",
that is, the Church exists among it's members, not inside of each one individually.
This may sound pedantic, but the difference is great. One rendering says the Church is inside of me, while the other says that the Church fills the spaces between it's members, that is, the Church is outside of me.
Perhaps Our Lord left it ambiguous because He meant both, and that we should not over-emphasise one to the detriment of the other?
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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2005, 08:15:41 PM »

By those statements I believe that Christ was pointing to the fact that heresy seperates us from Him.  For example: the life of Saint Agathon
Quote
Once, monks who had heard of his discernment came to St. Agathon to see if they could make him lose his temper. They asked him, "Are you Abba Agathon, a fornicator and a proud man?"

"Yes, that is true," the monk replied.

"Are you the Agathon who is always talking nonsense?" the monks inquired.

"I am," the saint agreed.

"Are you Agathon the heretic?" the monks persisted.

St. Agathon said, "I am not a heretic."

They asked the saint why he agreed with them when they accused him of vices, but then denied this last charge. Agathon replied, "I accepted the first accusations, since that was beneficial for my soul. But heresy is separation from God, and I do not wish to be separated from God."

From the lives of the Saints on www.oca.org under March 2nd
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« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2005, 08:30:11 PM »

See, constructive dialogue and explanations. Isn't that good?

choirfriend and ozgeorge and DT - Thanks!

And, of course, props to my brother Shultz!
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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2005, 10:27:23 PM »

The RC 'organically' has evolved into a total different beast. If we ever do re-unite, it will be a work of the Holy Spirit. I'm probably one of the few here that believes the RC still has grace, but not a "bull's-eye" if you know what I mean. They seriously have to do allot of work fixing their own mess first.

Nacho, I also believe this.   I read the posted statement on the Pope's intentions for working toward unity... I think it is a good intention... Better than him saying "up your nose Orthodox, we don't need you, you heretics..."... if you get my drift.  His intention is the right one.    The article mentioned a council of RC/EO bishops and I think that is the right approach.  Any change that happens in the RC church will not happen because we held an icon to their head...and made them say, 'we were wrong all these years'..  but will only come if we can help them 'recoup' what they lost spiritually... and  this would evolve like it was their intention all along... They can make changes if in continuing dialogue on the church Fathers a 'renewal' spirit of the faith is brought forth and they focus on how to renew the faith... and renewal  is also one of the Pope's goals. The focus should be on the teachings of the Holy Fathers... not on 'don't do this and don't do that...'  the focus should be a spiritual prayerful one going back to our common routes.     It is right to want the RC church to change , but the EO church as  'the true church' should be able to lead this from within discussion as Christ would have, without a vindictive spirit.    While many would rejoice in hearing the RC church admit its wrong doings,  it would be better to find a way for them to change without also insisting that they say they were wrong... we should help shift the focus back to the beginning.... If they were to do this with full spirit, then little by little, the rest of the change would follow as a natural outcome, slowly.And this would be the best way, with the strongest foundation and least turmoil....    The EO church must work to help them find the true faith and the discovery should be a rejoicing moment,  not a 'Ha ha you were wrong, so there...'   If the vindictive attitude dissipates, and the focus shifts to where it should be, then all things through God and the Holy Spirit would be possible.   
I am hopeful that the Mother Church will accept the offered hand of its wayward child and lead it down the right path in harmony and not discord...

In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2005, 01:28:33 PM »

"not...because we held an icon to their head"
that's funny!
great line, Kizzy
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« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2005, 02:58:58 PM »

Hello,

As a Roman Catholic I don't see re-union ever happening.  I realize that is a decidedly pessimistic statement but the fact is that the Roman Catholic Church has changed too much over the years/centuries for it to realistcally be able to re-unify with the Orthodox Church.  The various movements (Charismatic, for one) that have developed in the Roman Catholic Church would preclude this from happening.  Not to mention the various dissenting groups (and the bishops who support these groups) is another signficant factor prohibiting a real re-union.  Hate to say it but once the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak, you can't go back.  Maybe, just maybe, if the Roman Catholic Church were to return to orthodoxy and get its house in order then there could be a real discusion about unity.  Until that happens, though, these discussion are a useless exercise.

Peace,

Rob
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« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2005, 03:10:51 PM »

Hello,

As a Roman Catholic I don't see re-union ever happening.  I realize that is a decidedly pessimistic statement but the fact is that the Roman Catholic Church has changed too much over the years/centuries for it to realistcally be able to re-unify with the Orthodox Church.  The various movements (Charismatic, for one) that have developed in the Roman Catholic Church would preclude this from happening.  Not to mention the various dissenting groups (and the bishops who support these groups) is another signficant factor prohibiting a real re-union.  Hate to say it but once the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak, you can't go back.  Maybe, just maybe, if the Roman Catholic Church were to return to orthodoxy and get its house in order then there could be a real discusion about unity.  Until that happens, though, these discussion are a useless exercise.

Peace,

Rob


Are you sure you are Roman Catholic? Smiley (Joke)

Very true. Very very true.
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« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2005, 03:34:24 PM »




Are you sure you are Roman Catholic? Smiley (Joke)

Very true. Very very true.

Sadly, it doesn't do any good to bury your head in the sand.  I have been Roman Catholic for 12 years and it has been a struggle, especially when you have bishops turning a blind eye to priestly abuses of young men, advocating the homosexual agenda and supporting the ordination of women.  I have often considered/been tempted to convert to the Orthodox Church but have been deterred by the problems that exist within Orthodoxy and its presence in the United States.  Of course, the problems within Orthodoxy are of a different nature but they exist all the same.  Trust me, I am not a happy Roman Catholic.  However, I belong to a great parish with a holy priest and I really try to focus on the truths of the faith rather than the nonsense that happens in the United States.  At the same time, I can't help but wonder if what we are experiencing, as Roman Catholics, isn't due to the fact that we are separated from the Orthodox Church, which would lend a stabilizing force in maintaining tradition.

You have no idea how difficult it is being a faithful Roman Catholic.  From my vantage point, the grass is definitely greener on the other side of the fence.  I may convert to Orthodoxy some day but I want to make sure that it's for the right reasons and not just because I'm running away from the problems in the Roman Catholic Church.  That day may not be so far away.

Peace,

Rob
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« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2005, 04:18:06 PM »

That is a fair comment.

A very fair comment.

I don't know. I have a comment that will require a lot of letters to explain what exactly I mean... So, I won't go there..

But will say, I think that it is hard to be a Christian in this world full stop. And especially in every part of this world (I know it sounds illogic-well it is illogic-what I mean is to say for every part of this world satan finds the way to use the "elemets" against us. Having said this, I really think that "developed world" is the best trap satan thought of by far.

So, USA being the leader of this world, is especially hard area for a Christian to live. (Although, it seems that the rest of the world is trying to keep up and make lives of Christian as harsh as possible....).

In the end, I can not imagine what it is that what you are going through but, honestly, may God bless you. And all od us.
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« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2005, 06:05:13 PM »

Please feel free to share the thoughts you hesitated to.  It may spur additional, and warranted discussion.

My comments didn't really mean so much the U.S. itself the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S.  Yes, there are a lot of trapfalls here with all of the freedom and pushing the limits of decency but it seems as though much of the Roman Catholic Church has just followed that decent blindly when it should have been fighting the cultural decay with every fiber of its being.  You simply don't hear of this abherremt garbage happening in the Orthodox Church here.  Perhaps, if the Roman Catholic Church had more of the Orthodox mindset of "being in the world but not of the world" then none of the priestly sexual abuse crisis would have happened.  Do you know that there is a Roman Catholic priest, Fr. Andrew Greeley, who writes smutty romance novels in which sexual scenes are explained with incredible description?  This is a Roman Catholic priest!  An auxiliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Detroit has often held Mass for openly homosexual people - he even has a mitre with the purple gay triangle on it.  Yet, nothing is done to take these men to task or reign them in.  That's what I'm talking about.  The Roman Catholic Church has run amock in the U.S.

On the other hand, the U.S. provides wonderful opportunity for grace.  What an opportunity to fight Satan and hedonism by thumbing our noses at the cultural climate of the U.S.  So, while I wish this country were more holy, it's more the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has dropped the ball than the pitfalls that exist here.  All countries have temptations and the U.S. is no different.
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« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2005, 08:10:04 PM »

You simply don't hear of this abherremt garbage happening in the Orthodox Church here.
As much as I have always had this perception.. it is true you don't hear of it, but it does exist.   In fact there were several mega 'S.A' lawsuits in the GOA for which it is now working to pay.   Apparently they were discussed at the last big clergy laity. Perhaps the GO church deals with it better than the RC, I don't know.   The point is, that the OC is usually not on the radar screen of the mainstream media, so it is not taken apart in the media limb by limb as it goes through an issue...and can deal with it's issues without having to answer to Times magazine....  unlike the RC church where every issue is analyzed in the press..., misquoted, etc....  and who knows how much of what we read is accurate. Not that I don't believe the issues exist, I do, but I do believe that reading things in the popular press always has some  margin of reporter error or bias...  Interestingly in Greece there has been a huge shakeup in the church trying to get rid of clergy who have gone down the 'wrong path'.  I quote below a NYT article from February, just as an example that there is 'good and bad' everywhere...I don't believe the RC church is uniquely filled with evil clergy...

In XC, Kizzy


"Greek Church Struggles to Quell Raft of Scandals Involving Clergy
February 5, 2005

The New York Times

By ANTHEE CARASSAVA


 
ATHENS, Feb. 4 - Greece's top Orthodox clerics scrambled this week to salvage the church's credibility as scandal after scandal has emerged with clergymen implicated in drug dealing, antiquities theft, trial rigging and lewd conduct.
 
On Friday, the Athens bishop was suspended for six months as an investigation proceeded into accusations that he embezzled $2.9 million and tried to rig a court case in which he was fighting for control of a monastery.
 
The suspension was just one of the latest chapters in a tale of corruption that has scandalized all of Greece, a country where 97 percent of the people belong to the Greek Orthodox Church and the government enforces church law and pays priests' salaries.
 
The suspension, of Metropolitan Panteleimon of the Attica region, which includes Athens, was announced live on television, a day after church leaders appealed to the faithful to report improprieties and help root out corruption and strengthen the institution. The punishment was the harshest ordered against a high church official in two decades.
 
On Thursday, the Holy Synod of church leaders gave another bishop a week to answer allegations made by his predecessor that he was arrested last year during a drug bust in a "bar of ill-repute" in central Greece.
 
"This is no doubt the worst crisis in decades," said the Rev. Epifanios Economou, spokesman for the Greek Church. "We are determined, however, to act fast and decisively. Our greatest priority at this point is to restore faith and trust in the church, not to see people losing it."
 
The suspension of Metropolitan Panteleimon came 48 hours after a radio station broadcast excerpts of what it said were taped telephone conversations between the prelate, his lawyer and a senior judge in an attempt to win a favorable ruling in the case involving control of the monastery.
 
Although he questioned the authenticity of the tape, the metropolitan, who is the equivalent of a high-level bishop, publicly confirmed that he had in fact spoken to the judge about the case. Adding to the controversy, the judge was suspended by Greece's highest court last month on accusations of taking large bribes to free convicted drug dealers from jail.
 
Four other judges face similar disciplinary action, and at least nine other legal officials are under investigation for involvement with lawyers and priests suspected of promoting prostitution, helping get drug dealers acquitted and influencing church elections.
 
Among the clerics implicated is a former monk who was arrested Friday while en route to a prosecutor's office in the port city of Piraeus, to testify in connection with charges of antiquities smuggling. The former monk, Archimandrite Iakovos Giosakis, also faces embezzlement charges in connection with his work as a priest in Chicago.
 
The Synod suspended him from his religious duties on Thursday, when it asked the government to amend its ecclesiastic laws and allow the church to take tougher action on its own against its wayward clergymen.
 
Under the country's Constitution, the state can enforce laws in church affairs. Theodore Roussopoulos, spokesman for the conservative New Democracy Party that rose to power last March vowing to stamp out widespread cronyism and corruption, said the administration would support every effort toward reform."


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« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2005, 08:53:28 PM »

(This post is made as an answer to Rosborn)

Wow, that is bad.

Maybe you can suggest how RCC that prides herself on the "centralized rule" can have that sort of things occuring?

I think that Orthodox Church is facing a problem in the new world where we have a mixed population of "cradle" and converts; where "cradle" Orthodox, in a lot of cases do not wish to do anything "churchy" in english. I think that compromize should be found  one way or another, because this situation should be solved soon. Orthodox problems are more of technical problems (so to speak). Calendar issue, Parallel Hiearchy and of course - how to treat the question of ecumenism. Also we have issues with some of the hiearchs doing bad things-simonial things.

In all of these I have my view but, I am not opposed to other views (this is, in my case a very recent developement).


Now, what I wanted to say is that I am sort of an eclusivist - Orthodoxy containts all of the truth and no one else can be and should be even compared.

(Many of my views were developed from reading. I was not able - due to work - to go to the Church for most of the year, every year for the last 4 years. I lived in Saudi Arabia so... That is to say that since I turned towards Orthodoxy I went to the Church (obviously) only when I was on leave. So I have aquired many Zealot like characteristics, that now in the real world have to be purged and refined. I am saying this, so that what I am going to say next does not seem too strange. Also, I am only a cathecumen, who lacks Church experience and love towards anything non-Orthodox. But, that is all being refined now, and who knows, I might one day actually admit that there are good people outside OC   Smiley )

So, I tend to safeguard the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.

Of late, listening to many members of the others communities I started to think that, well, satan is doing everything that will hurt everybody, just the way he always did. The target remains the same, only weapon and tactics have changed.

So, it is not enough that he has succed to divide the Christendom into this rather "pathetic" picture of "free for all" "comedy" of basic doctrines of our faith, but he has to do even more. It does not matter what satan does, God will always find the way to get the people towards Himself. This is why satan now attacks all, the way he does. If you notice, all of us have been attacked by means of introduction of new things. Now new things are not necessarily bad, but new things that are so wrong are. I mean RCC is being attacked one way, Anglicans the other, Lutherans third... and so on. In all of the "traditional" western communities the attack is against that tradition. In all evangelical communities, the attack is making them look like... I don't even know what they resemble anymore. Now Orthodoxy, well we have our own little issues, but I tend to think that they are nothing like the rest.

One thing that brought me to Orthodoxy was the fact that, even for all those attacks of the last 2000 years, and especially last 600, Orthdoxy did not change. We were hit and hit hard. We do suffer some consequences of that hit but as a whole Orthodox Church did not change. No new doctrines to make turks or communists happy was introduced, even both of those did try to force the Church to do so.

I guess, my point is that the separation from Orthodoxy is manifested in all non-Orthodox communities the same way. It is just the degree of separation that influences how big the manifestation will be. This manifestation being introduction of "let make the world happy" (you can use TV instead of the word World).

In the end, I think that all this was going to happen. All this has to happen. Satan is making an parody of values and morality in the world. Nothing is sacred anymore, everything is open for our deliberation. We are gods. We can do anything we want. Just yesterday one of the friends friends friend commented that she does not believe in God because that is "so not cool". I just crossed myself, and told her that she is a moron. I know I should have not done it, but the other option was me smashing her head in.. and that just is "so not cool"

The fact that we have "instant information- just add buttons" of this information age, is making all this rotting just more visible. The civilization is killing herself.

One of my great friends, who is enviromental scientist for Australian Government said to me ages ago:"We do not need God to destroy this planet, we will do so in 50 years, if this rape continues-even without increase of tempo or population". This world is empty, always was. To use the words of Brad Pitt in the movie fight club:"All these people that work the jobs that they do not like, so they can buy the things that they do not need".

So, I do not think that what you feel is nothing new. It was felt by many and is and will be.

The question remains, what are we to do?

I say, pray and fast and do more of this that we ever did.
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2005, 09:49:35 PM »

(This post is made as an answer to Rosborn)

Wow, that is bad.

Maybe you can suggest how RCC that prides herself on the "centralized rule" can have that sort of things occuring?


It is bad but is also the reality that we faithful Roman Catholics have to live under.

I have no suggestion.  The reality in Rome is not the reality in the U.S. which, again, is why I lurk on this forum and always keep studying Orthodoxy.  My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism.  I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church.  That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups.  This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S.   The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR.  And so forth.  It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert.  You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions.  That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church.  I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

I will answer the remainder of your excellent post tomorrow.

Peace,

Rob
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« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2005, 12:55:51 AM »

I think there is room in Catholicism for some flexibility on dogmatic issues.  It has to be recalled that before the schism there was a great deal of doctrinal difference between West and East, but it existed for hundreds of years before and communion was maintained.  Even in Catholicism there's a great deal of theological variety.  John Paul II was a phenomenologist, Benedict is a Thomist.  General trends aside, no one system has a monopoly.

While I don't think any of the Catholic dogmas are going to (or should!) change, thier interpritation has a dynamic, and in some ways very economic, character (one need only look at how Catholic ecclesiology has developed since VaticanII).  And I think that the pre-scism Church can serve as a model for restoring unity.
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« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2005, 06:04:44 AM »

 
Quote
My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism. I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church. That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups. This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S. The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR. And so forth. It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert. You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Greek Church (in America) is in full communion with the OCA as thus compromise a single church (with seperate administrations). The ROCOR is not an off shoot of the OCA (nor vice versa). The short version of the story is that Moscow was in charge of all the Orthodox parishes in the United States in terms of administration until the Russian Revolution (which left Moscow unable to continue its administration of the U.S.). That left each old world jurisdiction to pick up the care of their communities in America. The Russian administration that was left over here formed what was then called the Metropolia (and is now known as the OCA). The ROCOR was made up primarily of the immigrants fleeing the Soviet Union immediantly following the revolution - but was created to serve the worldwide Russian community (including those in America) not just America (like the OCA). Because of that overlap the situation exists in America of OCA and ROCOR, but with the exception of extremists (on either side) both see eathother as Orthodox. The ROCOR has always maintained communion with at least some of the other local Churches (and has always been in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem). So in the end the Greek Church, the OCA and ROCOR are all the same Orthodox Church - the difference comes down to local custom.

This problem exists to a lesser extent in the RCC even today actually. For example there are Byzantine Catholic Churches in every big city in America, yet they have their own administration and bishops, seperate from the local Latin Catholics. Also in times past in America there was a large amount of ethnic tension between French, Irish, German and Polish Catholics - many towns (even small ones!) having a parish for each. Give the Orthodox 100 years and they will all be melting pot Americans similar to the RCC.

Quote
That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

Such a statement as the RCC has no grace needs some qualification and context. God can work miracles and bestow His grace wherever He wills. Such a statement though (in such strong terms) is a safe guard against espousing the branch theory which denies the article of the creed "in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church." The statement shouldn't be taken as a condemnation of the RCC to the point that there is nothing good and redemptive within her. Most Catholics (and to an extent high-church protestants) who come to Orthodoxy already have a deep love and veneration for the Mother of God, the saints, the fathers, liturgical prayer etc. Baptism into Orthodoxy isn't a rejection of the RCC, but it is a fulfiment of it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 06:10:46 AM by Silouan » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2005, 07:02:21 PM »



It is bad but is also the reality that we faithful Roman Catholics have to live under.

I have no suggestion. The reality in Rome is not the reality in the U.S. which, again, is why I lurk on this forum and always keep studying Orthodoxy. My biggest "problem" with Orthodoxy is jurisdictionalism. I live within the realm of three different jurisdictions (Greek Orthodox, ROCOR and OCA) and I truly fear converting to any one of the three because I am concerned that by converting I will find myself outside of the true Orthodox Church. That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups. This may seem silly to you but the Greek Orthodox Church really isn't all that different than the Roman Catholic Church in her problems and administration here in the U.S. The OCA is an off shoot of ROCOR. And so forth. It's confusing and not a little unsettling for a potential convert. You see, I know what I have in Roman Catholic Church but I don't know what I will have in any one of these Orthodox jurisdictions. That and the fact that so many of the on-line Orthodox presences see no grace in the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know if I can subscribe to that.

I will answer the remainder of your excellent post tomorrow.

Peace,

Rob

Quote
That really isn't a problem in Roman Catholicism because there is only one Roman Catholic Church - the rest being splinter groups.
In my reading and experience SSPX is far from a being just a splinter group. The last membership estimate I saw showed 150,000 active faithful as of 1988. However there are undoubtedly more as that statistic is 17 years old and their is no official way of becoming a member of SSPX unless you are clergy so it is very difficult to count the laity. SSPX also has three seminaries.  While I admit that SSPX is quite small compared to the millions of RC faithful worldwide it is far from being just a splinter group. The members are devoted and SSPX is growing. Most RCs who take their faith seriously, sadly very few, will immediately have some idea who SSPX is and I think many "conservative" RCs feel more than a bit of sympathy or attraction to these "hardliners." They cause more than a bit of discomfort for the American RC church, particularly since the Society is so active in the U.S., and are like that intelligent annoying student who often proves the teacher wrong.
The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.
I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.
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« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2005, 08:05:27 PM »

I think that Orthodox Church is facing a problem in the new world where we have a mixed population of "cradle" and converts; where "cradle" Orthodox, in a lot of cases do not wish to do anything "churchy" in english. I think that compromize should be found one way or another, because this situation should be solved soon. Orthodox problems are more of technical problems (so to speak). Calendar issue, Parallel Hiearchy and of course - how to treat the question of ecumenism. Also we have issues with some of the hiearchs doing bad things-simonial things.


Truth is, all religious bodies have problems because they are run by human beings.

Quote
In all of these I have my view but, I am not opposed to other views (this is, in my case a very recent developement).

We all need to learn more about each other.  The more we learn the more we can be accepting of the position of another.


Quote
Now, what I wanted to say is that I am sort of an eclusivist - Orthodoxy containts all of the truth and no one else can be and should be even compared.

I used to feel the same way about the Roman Catholic Church.  Now, I feel that the fullness of the truth is somewhere locked between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.  Combined, though it is unlikely, the two could be a force to truly change the world.

Quote
(Many of my views were developed from reading. I was not able - due to work - to go to the Church for most of the year, every year for the last 4 years. I lived in Saudi Arabia so... That is to say that since I turned towards Orthodoxy I went to the Church (obviously) only when I was on leave. So I have aquired many Zealot like characteristics, that now in the real world have to be purged and refined. I am saying this, so that what I am going to say next does not seem too strange. Also, I am only a cathecumen, who lacks Church experience and love towards anything non-Orthodox. But, that is all being refined now, and who knows, I might one day actually admit that there are good people outside OC Smiley )

I hope so! <smile>

Quote
So, I tend to safeguard the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.

That the way it should be.  If you are Orthodox then you should safeguard the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church.  However, you should also respect those who are Roman Catholic because they also believe the Roman Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth.  You see, when I became Roman Catholic 12 years ago I had no idea that the Orthodox Church even existed.  I was not raised in any faith as a child and spent brief period of time in the Episcopal Church.  For obvious reason I left the Episcopal Church.  I read a book about denomination in the United States written by Huston Smith.  In the book he wrote that the Roman Catholic Church was the original Christian church.  After my experience in the Episcopal Church I wanted to be in the original Christian Church.  So, I became Roman Catholic.  Prior to my conversion I read a lot of vintage and historical books about the Roman Catholic Church.  I loved what I read and assumed that the modern Roman Catholic Church was like the historic Church.  It didn't take long for me to realize that it simply wasn't so.

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Of late, listening to many members of the others communities I started to think that, well, satan is doing everything that will hurt everybody, just the way he always did. The target remains the same, only weapon and tactics have changed.

Satan is at the root of all evil, including breaking up the Church.

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So, it is not enough that he has succed to divide the Christendom into this rather "pathetic" picture of "free for all" "comedy" of basic doctrines of our faith, but he has to do even more. It does not matter what satan does, God will always find the way to get the people towards Himself. This is why satan now attacks all, the way he does. If you notice, all of us have been attacked by means of introduction of new things. Now new things are not necessarily bad, but new things that are so wrong are. I mean RCC is being attacked one way, Anglicans the other, Lutherans third... and so on. In all of the "traditional" western communities the attack is against that tradition. In all evangelical communities, the attack is making them look like... I don't even know what they resemble anymore. Now Orthodoxy, well we have our own little issues, but I tend to think that they are nothing like the rest.

True.  Orthodoy's issues revolve around trying to maintain the truth not in adopting innovative ideas.  Yet, the Orthodox Church does struggle with certain modern notions like artificial contraception.

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One thing that brought me to Orthodoxy was the fact that, even for all those attacks of the last 2000 years, and especially last 600, Orthdoxy did not change. We were hit and hit hard. We do suffer some consequences of that hit but as a whole Orthodox Church did not change. No new doctrines to make turks or communists happy was introduced, even both of those did try to force the Church to do so.

Again, this is true.  However, things like artificial contraception and allowing up to three marriages is not in keeping with historic Christianity.  Don't get me wrong, annulments in the Roman Catholic Church are out of control and many Catholics use artificial contraception but the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church condemns these things

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I guess, my point is that the separation from Orthodoxy is manifested in all non-Orthodox communities the same way. It is just the degree of separation that influences how big the manifestation will be. This manifestation being introduction of "let make the world happy" (you can use TV instead of the word World).

No doubt.  Yet, the Roman Catholic Church is as old as the Orthodox Church and was never exactly like the Orthodox Church.  Therefore, there was always "some" degree of separation between the two bodies.

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In the end, I think that all this was going to happen. All this has to happen. Satan is making an parody of values and morality in the world. Nothing is sacred anymore, everything is open for our deliberation. We are gods. We can do anything we want. Just yesterday one of the friends friends friend commented that she does not believe in God because that is "so not cool". I just crossed myself, and told her that she is a moron. I know I should have not done it, but the other option was me smashing her head in.. and that just is "so not cool"

She is a moron but you still need to pray for her.  I'm sure she'll turn around some day, especially when confronted with a crisis.

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The fact that we have "instant information- just add buttons" of this information age, is making all this rotting just more visible. The civilization is killing herself.

At the same time the internet has been very instrumental in leading people to the truthy of Orthodoxy.  Really, it's all in how you use the information age.

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One of my great friends, who is enviromental scientist for Australian Government said to me ages ago:"We do not need God to destroy this planet, we will do so in 50 years, if this rape continues-even without increase of tempo or population". This world is empty, always was. To use the words of Brad Pitt in the movie fight club:"All these people that work the jobs that they do not like, so they can buy the things that they do not need".

I am an environmental scientist myself (a geologist) and I could disagree with your friend more.  God created the earth and I think it takes a real lack of humility to think that we can destroy what God has created.  The earth is very resiliant.  Still, we have to be good stewards of what God has given us.

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So, I do not think that what you feel is nothing new. It was felt by many and is and will be.

True.  The early Christians were certain that they were living in the end times.

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The question remains, what are we to do?

Remain faithful.

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I say, pray and fast and do more of this that we ever did.

Absolutely!  We need to pray and fast - like never before.

Fixed quotes. John
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« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2005, 08:15:54 PM »

In my reading and experience SSPX is far from a being just a splinter group. The last membership estimate I saw showed 150,000 active faithful as of 1988. However there are undoubtedly more as that statistic is 17 years old and their is no official way of becoming a member of SSPX unless you are clergy so it is very difficult to count the laity. SSPX also has three seminaries. While I admit that SSPX is quite small compared to the millions of RC faithful worldwide it is far from being just a splinter group. The members are devoted and SSPX is growing. Most RCs who take their faith seriously, sadly very few, will immediately have some idea who SSPX is and I think many "conservative" RCs feel more than a bit of sympathy or attraction to these "hardliners." They cause more than a bit of discomfort for the American RC church, particularly since the Society is so active in the U.S., and are like that intelligent annoying student who often proves the teacher wrong.

I would question those numbers.  The SSPX communities in my area are very small in number, much like the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.  The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
 
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The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.

I believe I have already said as much.  Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day.  It is not pretty and it is very frustrating.  That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own.  Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception.  As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism.  I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.

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I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.

I'll grant you that.  The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world.  It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about.  However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church.  As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church.  However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth.  If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.

Fixed quotes. John
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« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2005, 09:04:46 PM »



I would question those numbers. The SSPX communities in my area are very small in number, much like the parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
 

The point I am trying to make is that things are not kneat and clean in the RC church.

I believe I have already said as much. Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day. It is not pretty and it is very frustrating. That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own. Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception. As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism. I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.


I will grant you that the events of the Twentieth century and the disorganized missionary endeavors of the Orthodox Church on this continent have resulted in problems but as I see it these problems pale in comparison to the false doctrines espoused in the RC church.

I'll grant you that. The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world. It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about. However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church. As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church. However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth. If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.



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I would question those numbers.

This is where I got my numbers http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:qgXyZWEBvfkJ:www.adherents.com/Na/i_s.html+adherents.com+Society+of+St.Pius+X&hl=en

According to SSPX  http://www.sspx.org/ in the U.S. they have:

50 priests

4 deacons

12 brothers

61 seminarians

24 sisters

850 Third Order members

103 chapels

16 priories

3 houses of formation

4 retreat houses

23 schools & 1 college

1 publishing house: Angelus Press
 

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The SSPX tend to be comprised of zealots and hold views that are even more hardline than many Orthodox, with regard to grace existing outside of their body.
What specifically are you referring to? I admit I have never met an SSPX priest to discuss such things but I have an older sister who is in SSPX and they very much believe that they are a part of the Roman Catholic church and that the RC church everywhere has the Mysteries. At least that is what I have heard.

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I believe I have already said as much. Listen, I live the Roman Catholic experience every day. It is not pretty and it is very frustrating. That being said, Orthodoxy has modern issues of its own. Prior to very recent history the Orthodox Church did not allow artificial contraception. As far as I am concerned, this is caving to modernism. I'm not trying to start an argument just stating the truth.
What jurisdiction said artificial contraception is okay? OCA? AA? I can't think of any other jurisdiction making such a statement and have a hard time believe these two jurisdictions would make such a statement. Having said that there are, from what I have been told by a female relative, Protestant, who has had artificial contraception told me that there are methods that now exist that do not necessitate loss of life, death of embryos, for it to work and that is what she used.
I don't think any Orthodox jurisdiction should say artificial contraception is okay as that can be taken as blanket statement for methods that do result in loss of life and it just seems irresponsible to disagree with the RC chuch on this. The RC church always seems to have explored these issues for us Wink

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I'll grant you that. The Roman Catholic Church has, in many ways, embraced the secular world. It is a sad and sorry state and one that I am not happy about. However, I am called to follow Christ regardless of the problems within the Roman Catholic Church. As I have said before, I may embrace the Orthodox Church. However, I have to do so out a conviction that it alone possesses the fullness of truth. If I convert to Orthodoxy because I am running away from the Roman Catholic Church I will probably end up an unhappy convert because I will see the faults of Orthodoxy, few as they may be, and think I am no better of than I was when I was Roman Catholic.
I pray that you will see the light soon. I think you should ask yourself do I believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? that the Holy Spirit has some origin or eternal procession from the Son the same as the Father? do I believe in created Grace? that St.Peter is the Rock of the Church? that the Papacy is somehow guarded from every fallilng into error in matters of faith? etc. I went through a lot of what you are stuggling with particularly when I read various essays by RC apologists. I studied and I came to the conclusion most, if not all of the quotes supporting these heretical teachings were taken out of context and that there is no basis for these teachings in Holy Tradition. If you come to the conclusion that you believe what the Orthodox Church teaches then I think it is safe to say that you are not just running from the chaos of the American RC church.
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« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2005, 09:14:51 PM »

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What specifically are you referring to? I admit I have never met an SSPX priest to discuss such things but I have an older sister who is in SSPX and they very much believe that they are a part of the Roman Catholic church and that the RC church everywhere has the Mysteries. At least that is what I have heard.


There are many SSPX who do not believe that the pope is the "real" pope.  In other words, they are sedevacantists.

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What jurisdiction said artificial contraception is okay? OCA? AA? I can't think of any other jurisdiction making such a statement and have a hard time believe these two jurisdictions would make such a statement.  Having said that there are, from what I have been told by a female relative, Protestant, who has had artificial contraception told me that there are methods that now exist that do not necessitate loss of life, death of embryos, for it to work and that is what she used.

Well, I know of at least one OCA priest who said that he has counceled his parishioners to use artificial comtraception.  I have spoken with an Antiochian Orthodox woman who said that her parish allows the use of artificial contraception.  Two different jurisdictions in which parish priests allow their parishioners to use artificial contraception.  I know that ROCOR is steadfast against this but I don't know about the rest of the jurisdictions.  Listen, I'm not trying to stir things up.  I'm merely stating what I have learned.  Heck, there are even Orthodox apologists on the internet who say that the use of artificial contracpetion is okay if you're married.  I'm only repeating what I have been told.

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I don't think any Orthodox jurisdiction should say artificial contraception is okay as that can be taken as blanket statement for methods that do result in loss of life and it just seems irresponsible to disagree with the RC chuch on this. The RC church always seems to have explored these issues for us Wink

Well, this is one area in which the Roman Catholic Church has held firm and that is admirable.

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I pray that you will see the light soon. I think you should ask yourself do I believe in the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? that the Holy Spirit has some origin or eternal procession from the Son the same as the Father? do I believe in created Grace? that St.Peter is the Rock of the Church? that the Papacy is somehow guarded from every fallilng into error in matters of faith? etc. I went through a lot of what you are stuggling with particularly when I read various essays by RC apologists. I studied and I came to the conclusion most, if not all of the quotes supporting these heretical teachings were taken out of context and that there is no basis for these teachings in Holy Tradition. If you come to the conclusion that you believe what the Orthodox Church teaches then I think it is safe to say that you are not just running from the chaos of the American RC church.

See the light soon?  I'm here talking about it with you aren't I.  If I didn't care or weren't seeking the truth I wouldn't even be here.  Sheesh, I hope that counts for "something".

Ditto
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« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2005, 09:34:11 PM »

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There are many SSPX who do not believe that the pope is the "real" pope.  In other words, they are sedevacantists.
I believe that these people are no longer in SSPX but have moved on into the SSPV which is sedevacantist. At the SSPX website they have Pope Benedict's photo and a prayer for him posted.

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Well, I know of at least one OCA priest who said that he has counceled his parishioners to use artificial comtraception.  I have spoken with an Antiochian Orthodox woman who said that her parish allows the use of artificial contraception.  Two different jurisdictions in which parish priests allow their parishioners to use artificial contraception.  I know that ROCOR is steadfast against this but I don't know about the rest of the jurisdictions.  Listen, I'm not trying to stir things up.  I'm merely stating what I have learned.  Heck, there are even Orthodox apologists on the internet who say that the use of artificial contracpetion is okay if you're married.  I'm only repeating what I have been told.
Let me try to clarify something that I am confused about: did you mean artifical insemination? I got mixed up in my last post and should have wrote artificial insemination where I wrote artificial contraception.
I am not trying to argue with you about this either but as far as I can tell no Orthodox jurisdiction condones artificial insemination anymore than the RC chuch condones it. There are RC priests and apologists for ariticial insemination the same as there are Orthodox for it.

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See the light soon?  I'm here talking about it with you aren't I.  If I didn't care or weren't seeking the truth I wouldn't even be here.  Sheesh, I hope that counts for "something".
What I was referring to is the moment when you know beyond any doubt that the Orthodox Church is the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. This is what happened to me over a year ago. It was like someone opened a door and a brilliant light shown in and I knew for sure that the Orthodox Church is the True Church. Various others have had a similar experience. One man mentioned in Fr.Seraphim's God's Revelation to the Human Heart had an experience identical to mine.

That was all I meant.
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« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2005, 09:44:11 PM »

Dear Rosborn,

thank you for a wide and comprehensive answer.

I think that talking and understanding without a "blind need" to argue is the most productive way of conversing. I have found that arguments "over the net" are not as productive as we tend to disregard "humanity of the letters".

I wish however to take a second to say a bit more about two things that you have brought up, understandably.


These are artificial contraception and "three marriages".

It is fair to say that by using economy ("management of the created cosmos" or "dealing with creation") Curch is able to "contradict herself".
You are right when you see these as modernist inovations, however we understand them not as modernist but as "houshold management" issues.
It is very important to notice that Contraception is not "positive" also anything but one marriage should not be considered as positive.

Artificial contraception:
Church does not suggest that un-maried people should use it. I have from time to time heard that some single people who are engaged in "pre-marital activities of sexual nature" think that it is OK to use contraception. NO! Church has always maintained that SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE IS NOT ALLOWED. And indeed many still practice this, even though it seems that as a part of modern culture this is not necessary. But we will all give answers and it is not my place to comment on this. Artificial Contraception is not encouriged. It is, however, allowed in certain cases for a "Triangle of Marriage" (being God, Husband and Wife) to come onto use of it. Again, just because it is possible this is not a standard thing and as such is not encouriged. But using the Oikonomia (Economy) Priest and Married couple can come to this solution if there is a need (ussually health reasons-and ussually very very rare).

Three Marriages:
This is a unfortunate term. You have to understand that this is not the norm. This does not mean:" Hey brother it is ok.. you do nothave to take care of your wife.. you do not have to love her.. you still have 2 goes". NO. Orthodox believe that only in love we exist. Faith without love is dead. Theology without love is dead. Life without love is dead. Marriage without love is also dead.
This is why, again using Economy, and after great consideration there is a chance have a divorce granted. Now, the Church states that it will allow up to 3 marriages. This does NOT mean that this will happen likely and easy and to everyone. This is not the rule, rather exemption. Not everyone will be grated this.

Divine Economy goes a long way in Orthodox Church. It is nothing new. So on this point I have to disagree woth you. It is not an inovation. It was always there.

Using divine Economy, Orthodox will allow for even Abortion. Now again this is not the rule, but it can happen. The condition for this (and generally for any case warranting use of Economy) HAS TO BE, buy it nature, A GRAVE CONDITION. Just the fact that Orthodox will say that some things CAN happen, DOES NOT mean that they are OK to happen.

Inovations that I have in mind would be:
Numbering Sacraments the way Latin West does,
Use of some Icons that are of dubious (read incorrect) Iconography (such as that Icon of Most Holy Trinity where God the Father is represented as an old man),
New calendar (even though this is not wrong it does bring anachronism to the Church),
Tendency of some modern Orthodox Scholars to use western methodology to "describe" Orthodox Theology (really, why bother?)... and so on.
Anachronism of Jurisdictional Management in the West (USA, Australia...).

Some of these are nothing we can do for they have been acknowledged and dealt with, and some are being dealt with... some are yet to be dealt with. These are just examples that pop to my mind.


Having said all this, you are free to disagree. Also you are free to remain Roman Catholic. I am rather impressed by your oppeness and honesty.

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« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2005, 10:08:13 PM »

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Having said all this, you are free to disagree. Also you are free to remain Roman Catholic. I am rather impressed by your oppeness and honesty.

Thank you.  I am here to learn and I am indeed open to Orthodoxy.

Peace,

Rob

Ditto
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« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2005, 10:10:51 PM »

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Artificial contraception:
Church does not suggest that un-maried people should use it. I have from time to time heard that some single people who are engaged in "pre-marital activities of sexual nature" think that it is OK to use contraception. NO! Church has always maintained that SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE IS NOT ALLOWED. And indeed many still practice this, even though it seems that as a part of modern culture this is not necessary. But we will all give answers and it is not my place to comment on this. Artificial Contraception is not encouriged. It is, however, allowed in certain cases for a "Triangle of Marriage" (being God, Husband and Wife) to come onto use of it. Again, just because it is possible this is not a standard thing and as such is not encouriged. But using the Oikonomia (Economy) Priest and Married couple can come to this solution if there is a need (ussually health reasons-and ussually very very rare).

Sorry I got mixed up in my last posts and did not respond.
Artificial Contraception is never allowed in the Orthodox Church unless one of the spouses may die. This condition almost never exists so it is extremely rare as sin_valdimirov pointed out. When it comes to a couple complaining about having too many children then that is not a valid condition. Keep your pants on!

Quote
Using divine Economy, Orthodox will allow for even Abortion. Now again this is not the rule, but it can happen. The condition for this (and generally for any case warranting use of Economy) HAS TO BE, buy it nature, A GRAVE CONDITION. Just the fact that Orthodox will say that some things CAN happen, DOES NOT mean that they are OK to happen.

By definition there is no case when the termination of life is okay. The only case in which an "abortion" can take place is if the child can be proven to be dead inside the womb and that does not fit our common definition of abortion anyway.

Quote
Use of some Icons that are of dubious (read incorrect) Iconography (such as that Icon of Most Holy Trinity where God the Father is represented as an old man),
This is a common belief amongst Orthodox and it is unfounded. There is no prohibition of depicting God the Father, though I personally think it can be abused. Here is a good essay on this issue http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm
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« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2005, 10:21:26 PM »

Rosborn, I am here also to learn, my learning process goes the weird way though Grin I say something and the realize that it could be wrong.. then do some research and so on... Whatever the case may be, I do not think (I did just 2 days ago though) that stating what we believe (that is contradictory to our views) is bad. That is to say, I, now, do not mind hearing what others have to say, and especially Roman Catholics and Anglicans. (Oriental Orthodox have enjoyed this "priviledge" from before Grin).
So, as far as I am concern hit it away.  Smiley

Sabas, I was under impression that another time (apart from the one you mention) when Abortion could be approved is when Mothers life is in danger, and in this case only mother can make a decision, is this the case or did I misread?
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« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2005, 11:32:16 PM »

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Sabas, I was under impression that another time (apart from the one you mention) when Abortion could be approved is when Mothers life is in danger, and in this case only mother can make a decision, is this the case or did I misread?
I have not read any official statements regarding this specific case though I have read various OCA priests who argue that in these delicate situations the mother can choose. Of course this is not official Church teaching but the counsel of priests. I respect the priesthood and do not want to set myself up as an authority as I am just a layman trying to help others with what I have heard and read. I would say that in the case of a woman who is certain to die if she gives birth but it is likely the child will live that the woman should give her life for her child. In the case of a woman who is certain to die if she gives birth and it is certian that the child would die in childbirth, though I know of no case in which you can be certain of this, that the woman should choose though I would think the mother should die with her child. These are just my opinions and I am in no place to judge others.
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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2005, 08:36:52 AM »

I am way late on this, but i would just like to add my two cents.  I honestly think that the ultimate intent by the RC church is to make us see the "errors of our ways" and join them...they said reach out, not return to. Not happening, imo. You think the Catholics (as in Pope, cardinals, etc) are going to give up all that they have amassed over the last thousand years or so? Yah right. The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2005, 04:46:18 PM »

The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now. 

So typical and inaccurate. And how would this work? Orthodox don't even allow priests to marry. (Read me carefully). We ordain MARRIED men. There is a difference. Are we to encourage the Roman Catholic Church to allow men who are ALREADY ordained as priests and who have taken vows of celibacy to brake those vows and get married? Think this through. It just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we Orthodox might suggest to Rome that it consider ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? The Latine Rite already has married deacons. Married priest would be a logical outgrowth of this.  Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2005, 05:40:29 PM »

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Now we see the pickle that Rome has gotten herself into.  I mean, if (and it's next to slim; we'll at least the last time I stepped in to a Catholic church) Rome did allow married men to become priests, do we honestly think that all those single priests are going to take it lying down.  Well, that's what happens when you mess with "Tradition" (and I'm saying it like the Jews in the opening theme song of "Fiddler on the Roof.").
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rosborn
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2005, 09:16:35 PM »

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Tikhon29605
Now we see the pickle that Rome has gotten herself into. I mean, if (and it's next to slim; we'll at least the last time I stepped in to a Catholic church) Rome did allow married men to become priests, do we honestly think that all those single priests are going to take it lying down. Well, that's what happens when you mess with "Tradition" (and I'm saying it like the Jews in the opening theme song of "Fiddler on the Roof.").

Actually, in faithful and orthodox dioceses in the Roman Catholic Church we are seeing a great abundance of young men committing themselves to the celibate life as Roman Catholic priests.  Young men are embracing this calling and defedning this practice.  Besides, I don't see all that much complaining from the Orthodox sideconcerning monks and bishops.  Obviously, as our Lord and Savior indicated, there is a place and role for unmarried men and women in the Kingdom of God.
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2005, 09:27:35 PM »

I agree with Rosborn.

The celibacy of the RC priesthood is the last of the problems and issues.
It was there before the split and each to their own.



We have much much bigger fish to fry.
(well, not us really, but those who  work in the "fish and chips" shop).

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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2005, 12:01:15 AM »

I am way late on this, but i would just like to add my two cents.  I honestly think that the ultimate intent by the RC church is to make us see the "errors of our ways" and join them...they said reach out, not return to. Not happening, imo. You think the Catholics (as in Pope, cardinals, etc) are going to give up all that they have amassed over the last thousand years or so? Yah right.

I think the situation isn't nearly as grave as you make it out to be.  You might want to consider reading John Paul II's Ut Unum Sint.  It addresses some of those issues.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 12:01:41 AM by ManSpider » Logged

aurelia
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« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2005, 09:00:36 AM »

Typical of what exactly?

Pardon me for not being as clear as I should have been. I did not intend to imply that those who have already taken their vows should be able to up and marry, nor am I unaware that the Orthodox ordain married men as opposed to letting ordained men get married.ÂÂ  You act like i fell off the turnip truck.

However, i still think that if the RC had the same sort of system as the Orthodox, that there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of the...how do i put this nicely...scandal of child and other molestation that seems to be so prevalent in the RC church.ÂÂ  And before you attack me on that, i do realize that it is some bad apples spoiling the bunch, not the norm.ÂÂ  I think it is total hippocracy that they can go on about the sanctity of celibacy when they're have been popes having their protraits painted with their children, having well known mistresses, etc, over the centuries.ÂÂ  Decide, celibate or not.

Yes i think it is a good idea to suggest ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite.

I'm awaiting my blasting now.


The first right step by them would be to allow priests to marry...you'd get rid of a lot of the problems they are having now.ÂÂ  

So typical and inaccurate. And how would this work? Orthodox don't even allow priests to marry. (Read me carefully). We ordain MARRIED men. There is a difference. Are we to encourage the Roman Catholic Church to allow men who are ALREADY ordained as priests and who have taken vows of celibacy to brake those vows and get married? Think this through. It just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we Orthodox might suggest to Rome that it consider ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? The Latine Rite already has married deacons. Married priest would be a logical outgrowth of this.ÂÂ  Just my thoughts.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 01:39:51 PM by aurelia » Logged
Tikhon29605
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« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2005, 07:24:35 PM »

However, i still think that if the RC had the same sort of system as the Orthodox, that there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of the...how do i put this nicely...scandal of child and other molestation that seems to be so prevalent in the RC church.  And before you attack me on that, i do realize that it is some bad apples spoiling the bunch, not the norm.  I think it is total hippocracy that they can go on about the sanctity of celibacy when they're have been popes having their protraits painted with their children, having well known mistresses, etc, over the centuries.  Decide, celibate or not.

Yes i think it is a good idea to suggest ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite.]I'm awaiting my blasting now.

No one is going to blast you. Everyone doesn't have to agree with me! I, also, think that if Rome decided to ordain married men to the priesthood that would be a good thing. However, I do think it is rather typically naive at best to think that having a married clergy will solve the problem of pedopilia in the Roman Catholic Church. Marriage has not cured pedophilia and never will. It is an entirely separating issue. And if you take a look at statistics, most pedophiles are married heterosexual men.  I just don't see having a married parish clergy as the "cure all" for Rome's ills. It might help, it might not. I am not really sure. I know it has not created paradise or perfection in the Orthodox Church.  We had an Orthodox parish about 30 miles from here (jurisdiction unnamed) where the married priest committed pedophilia on a young boy just a couple years ago. And the last I read about the Orthodox Church in Greece, it was ridden with all sorts of sexual scandals: pedophilia, homosexuality and fornicating priests and bishops.  So I am not so sure we can really lecture Rome in this regard. Our system is not  without its problems either. Any history of the Orthodox Church in Russia mentions the tension between the married parish clergy and the celibate monastic clergy. Even our monastic literature often bemoans the fact that monasteries can become places where ambitious men compete with one another to become bishops.  And one final note, has anyone given any thought to how much money it would cost the RCC to have married parish priests? If the priest didn't use any birth control like he is supposed to, he could easily have half to an entire dozen children. He'd have to have a housing allowance. He probably would not want or be able to live at the rectory. The possibility of having a daily Mass with family responsibilities would be vastly curtailed. Since most Orthodox Churches don't have a daily Liturgy (or in America, daily services for that matter), we don't tend to think of these things. But Roman Catholics do, and I am not too convinced they care for us lecturing them on how to fix their church.
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« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2005, 10:11:32 PM »

[ÂÂ  And one final note, has anyone given any thought to how much money it would cost the RCC to have married parish priests? If the priest didn't use any birth control like he is supposed to, he could easily have half to an entire dozen children. He'd have to have a housing allowance. He probably would not want or be able to live at the rectory. The possibility of having a daily Mass with family responsibilities would be vastly curtailed. Since most Orthodox Churches don't have a daily Liturgy (or in America, daily services for that matter), we don't tend to think of these things. But Roman Catholics do, and I am not too convinced they care for us lecturing them on how to fix their church.

Actually Tikhon, I have thought about this quite abit and agree with you.  I was involved in a start up and reviewed many of the budgetting issues related to getting a church off the ground- of which the priest's salary is a key factor...  and reviewed how other faiths do it for learning... and then I realized, in the RC church, the priests aren't married, don't even need life insurance as they have no heirs... No money to put children they don't have through college... it is  huge difference which has ramifications right down to the parish sustainability level.  Some OCA priests I know have a 'lay job' to supplement their income as the parishes they serve are often very small (meaning less than 100 families). On the other hand, the GOA  typically have a history of parishes with several hundred families, so most clergy expect to find a position in a parish like this that can support them.  The model for a 'small parish' , like a start up, or one in a remote area, where the priest may need to supplement income doesn't really exist as a mainstream... and the GOA parishes typically have as goals all of the ethnic programs which take even more time.. leaving less time for a lay job... Net,  married vs. non-married clergy completely changes the entire dynamics of parish support.  The plus side may be that a married clergy structure may attract more into the priesthood.  The minus side is that the salary structure is completely different and totally dependent on having large churches that can support the priest and his family... As for the scandalous activities... that is everywhere, in both churches and has nothing to do with whether the priests are married. The one point is that I was told by someone who has a RC clergy in the family that the RC church prefers homosexual men in the clergy...as this way they don't have to worry about the creation of out of wedlock babies...I don't know how widespread this is, but it was apparently true in one locale....     

In XC, Kizzy


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« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2005, 11:05:23 PM »

Tikhon:  You are right, we don't care for it.  Well, at least I don't.  Catholicism is full of self-loathers.

Kizzy:  To make matters worse contributions from parishiners have plumeted ever since the massive dissent from teachings on contraception in the 70 on.  So long as this remains an issue, married priest's are going to remain out of the picture.

There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.
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« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2005, 11:05:58 PM »

Tikhon:  You are right, we don't care for it.  Well, at least I don't.  Catholicism is full of self-loathers.

Kizzy:  To make matters worse contributions from parishiners have plumeted ever since the massive dissent from teachings on contraception in the 70 on.  So long as this remains an issue, married priest's are going to stay out of the picture.

There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.
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« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2005, 11:11:21 PM »

The one point is that I was told by someone who has a RC clergy in the family that the RC church prefers homosexual men in the clergy...as this way they don't have to worry about the creation of out of wedlock babies...I don't know how widespread this is, but it was apparently true in one locale....

Kizzy,

I realize this is what you were told but nothing could be further from the truth.  What a ludicrous thought!

Rob
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« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2005, 11:17:59 PM »

Quote
There are some exceptions however.  When Lutheran, Anglican, (and I would presume Orthodox) pastors convert they can join the priesthood even though they are married.  In my diocese (arch-diocese of Cincinnati), there are presently three married priests.

yes, i have a friend who is devoutly RC and who would become a priest in an instant if he could be married first and have a family (since he feels he is called to both to some extent, and is trying to figure out which God wants him to do) - when he and i have talked about differences between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church (my background before becoming Orthodox and his present faith) and married priests came up, as a joke he said he would become Orthodox, get married, become a priest, then return to the RCC and be an RC priest but married (said he read in a book that being married and ordained in another confession that allows it is the only way RC priests can wind up also being married)...he's a silly guy and he meant no harm by it, and of course he said he would never really do it caz he knows how disrespectful it would be to both faiths, but it was a funny moment for us in our talks about our faiths. Smiley 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 11:18:35 PM by Donna Rose » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2005, 11:35:43 PM »

Quote
yes, i have a friend who is devoutly RC and who would become a priest in an instant if he could be married first and have a family (since he feels he is called to both to some extent, and is trying to figure out which God wants him to do) - when he and i have talked about differences between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church (my background before becoming Orthodox and his present faith) and married priests came up, as a joke he said he would become Orthodox, get married, become a priest, then return to the RCC and be an RC priest but married (said he read in a book that being married and ordained in another confession that allows it is the only way RC priests can wind up also being married)...he's a silly guy and he meant no harm by it, and of course he said he would never really do it caz he knows how disrespectful it would be to both faiths, but it was a funny moment for us in our talks about our faiths. Smiley

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.
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Tikhon29605
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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2005, 12:41:14 AM »

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.


Ahem! <clearing throat>  Unless this friend lives in Eastern Europe, he cannot be ordained as a married man in an Eastern Catholic parish in the USA. The answer to why this is, is kind of long and complicated, and, from what I have read, resulted more from protests by Irish bishops in the US in the 19th century than it did from Rome purposely creating a double standard.  I don't think the Irish bishops wanted Eastern Rite Catholics in the USA at all. Period. I'm not sure of all the reasons for their negativity, but I know it was there. I think allowing Eastern Rite Catholicism to exist in the USA, both requiring mandatory celibacy of Eastern Rite clergy was Rome's way of creating a compromise and a peaceful solution at the time.
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2005, 01:13:57 AM »

If your friend wants to, he could petition his bishop to switch over to an Eastern Catholic Church, they allow married priests. To be allowed to switch rites, I think you have to be going to an EC parish for at least a year.


Ahem! <clearing throat>  Unless this friend lives in Eastern Europe, he cannot be ordained as a married man in an Eastern Catholic parish in the USA. The answer to why this is, is kind of long and complicated, and, from what I have read, resulted more from protests by Irish bishops in the US in the 19th century than it did from Rome purposely creating a double standard.  I don't think the Irish bishops wanted Eastern Rite Catholics in the USA at all. Period. I'm not sure of all the reasons for their negativity, but I know it was there. I think allowing Eastern Rite Catholicism to exist in the USA, both requiring mandatory celibacy of Eastern Rite clergy was Rome's way of creating a compromise and a peaceful solution at the time.

Not anymore.  The US Eparchies are starting to restore married clergy at the beheast of the last Pope.  The Eparchy of Parma is just one such example.
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Tikhon29605
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2005, 02:44:24 AM »

Not anymore.  The US Eparchies are starting to restore married clergy at the beheast of the last Pope.  The Eparchy of Parma is just one such example

WOW! Well, that is excellent news. I wish the Byzantine Catholics many years and blessings in this endeavor.
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