Author Topic: Time to Man Up  (Read 2679 times)

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Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Time to Man Up
« on: December 06, 2014, 10:45:17 AM »
When will the OCA man up and do something about Fr Robert Arida, Fr Oliver, et al?


Offline hecma925

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 10:53:56 AM »
Why? What did he do?  Is his bishop not taking care of things?  I'm glad there's another thread about it.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 10:58:57 AM »
Fr. Oliver Herbel? What did he do?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2014, 11:05:19 AM »
Fr. Oliver Herbel? What did he do?

I googled his name and apparently the Trad Youth Network have their panties in a wad because he publicly called out Matthew Heimbach. They posted an article on their website sliming Fr. Oliver and it's currently near the top of the Google search results. Other than that, I couldn't find any other instances of people criticizing Fr. Oliver.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 11:06:46 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2014, 11:20:36 AM »
Wow....just...wow.

I had heard the name, but had no idea who he was. I applaud the OCA for kicking his sorry can out the door (Matthew Heimbach, that is)!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 11:21:12 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2014, 11:23:35 AM »
Wow....just...wow.

I had heard the name, but had no idea who he was. I applaud the OCA for kicking his sorry can out the door (Matthew Heimbach, that is)!

He wasn't in the OCA.  He was attending an Antiochian parish.  There's a whole thread on him.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2014, 11:31:34 AM »
Wow....just...wow.

I had heard the name, but had no idea who he was. I applaud the OCA for kicking his sorry can out the door (Matthew Heimbach, that is)!

He wasn't in the OCA.  He was attending an Antiochian parish.  There's a whole thread on him.
Oh, you're right. My mistake.
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Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2014, 11:47:59 AM »
Read Fr Oliver's blog, Red River Orthodox

Fr Robert is encouraging a change in the Church's teachings on homosexuality, family, and the beginning and ending of human life.

Please read this quote from Fr Robert:

"If the Church is to “expand its mission” it can no longer turn away from, ignore or condemn questions and issues that are a priori presumed to contradict or challenge its living tradition. Among the most controversial of these issues are those related to human sexuality, the configuration of the family, the beginning and ending of human life, and care for the environment. If the Church is to “expand its mission” then, in and through the Holy Spirit, it must be able to expand the understanding of itself and of the world it lives in."


He also posted an article on an official OCA website geared for youth and young adults, also doing the same thing. You can read it for yourselves here:

http://holytrinityorthodox.org/articles_and_talks/Never%20Changing%20Gospel.pdf

This is old news for some of you, perhaps not for some of you. There's more, Fr Robert is reportedly communing active "married" homosexuals attending his parish. Please read the following quote:

The quote from Michael Berrigan Clark is as follows:
 
“Gerard, have you been to Holy Trinity (mentioned by Maria McDowell)? This is the OCA cathedral in Boston. So entirely canonical. I am gay… I was married to my husband in a civil ceremony in 2005. When I began attending Holy Trinity later that year I was completely up front with the priest. My husband, Martin, began attending liturgies regularly about two years ago. He was chrismated Holy Saturday earlier this year. Our relationship is not a secret; I have had no negative interactions with either clergy or laity in this parish. Martin and I are not the only gay people in the parish, though after Martin became Orthodox, we are the only Orthodox gay *couple* as far as I know. I don’t think this constitutes “don’t ask don’t tell.” More like “ask or tell whatever you like… we don’t care.” Just saying.”


Now Fr Oliver has not done anything that I know of per se, he is however, by a cursory reading of what he posts on his blog, supportive of Fr Robert. He is also very "ecumenical" leaning, meaning specifically that he doesn't really believe there's substantial differences between how the west and east approaches salvation. You can read his most recent blog post about that topic. He was confronted by a few commentators on his blog about the fundamental beliefs of Orthodoxy and in my opinion, cicumvented answering them. I don't have time to quote everything everyone has said, so some of you will need to read some of these things on your own and come to your own conclusions.


Offline hecma925

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2014, 11:59:37 AM »
Yeah, there's a thread on it.
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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2014, 02:07:09 PM »
I don't have time to quote everything everyone has said, so some of you will need to read some of these things on your own and come to your own conclusions.

Unless our conclusions disagree with your conclusions, in which case we are advocating for same sex marriage in the Orthodox Church no matter what we say. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2014, 02:13:55 PM »
On a related note, I wish somebody out there would stop spreading the word that Orthodoxy is friendly to fascism. It's getting fatiguing fielding leading questions from ultra-rightist acquaintances (don't ask; it's a long story) along the lines of "Well your church agrees with us, doesn't it?"
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2014, 05:20:07 PM »
I've gotten the opposite accusation from my dad, who thinks Orthodoxy is, or was, too sympathetic to Communism. Trying to explain the distinction between the pro-Communist Moscow Patriarchate and the anti-Communist ROCOR usually falls flat, which is funny, since he doesn't think Marxist liberation theologians represent Catholicism, even though, from the point of view of Catholic canon law, they were not even in schism from the Pope, whereas the MP and ROCOR were in schism from each other.

So, yeah, some people refuse to be persuaded.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2014, 05:24:17 PM »
I've gotten the opposite accusation from my dad, who thinks Orthodoxy is, or was, too sympathetic to Communism. Trying to explain the distinction between the pro-Communist Moscow Patriarchate and the anti-Communist ROCOR usually falls flat, which is funny, since he doesn't think Marxist liberation theologians represent Catholicism, even though, from the point of view of Catholic canon law, they were not even in schism from the Pope, whereas the MP and ROCOR were in schism from each other.

So, yeah, some people refuse to be persuaded.

Not to mention, wasn't the Russian Orthodox Church split in half by those who wanted to support the Marxist government and those under St. Tikhon who opposed it?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2014, 05:45:18 PM »
I've gotten the opposite accusation from my dad, who thinks Orthodoxy is, or was, too sympathetic to Communism. Trying to explain the distinction between the pro-Communist Moscow Patriarchate and the anti-Communist ROCOR usually falls flat, which is funny, since he doesn't think Marxist liberation theologians represent Catholicism, even though, from the point of view of Catholic canon law, they were not even in schism from the Pope, whereas the MP and ROCOR were in schism from each other.

So, yeah, some people refuse to be persuaded.

Not to mention, wasn't the Russian Orthodox Church split in half by those who wanted to support the Marxist government and those under St. Tikhon who opposed it?

Not really. They were split between those who saw the schism as purely political, and those who saw it as ecclesiological and dogmatic as well as political.

Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2014, 05:48:35 PM »
@Porter ODoran, I'm sorry but your comment is completely irrelevant to the topic of this tread. It is not related, please bring the tread back to its original topic.

Thank you

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2014, 05:49:48 PM »
@Porter ODoran, I'm sorry but your comment is completely irrelevant to the topic of this tread. It is not related, please bring the tread back to its original topic.

Thank you

You're the one who brought up Fr. Oliver Herbel.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2014, 06:13:07 PM »
Dude, read my original post! Do they not teach reading comprehension in school anymore?

Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2014, 06:16:58 PM »
"Now Fr Oliver has not done anything that I know of per se, he is however, by a cursory reading of what he posts on his blog, supportive of Fr Robert. He is also very "ecumenical" leaning, meaning specifically that he doesn't really believe there's substantial differences between how the west and east approaches salvation. You can read his most recent blog post about that topic."

What in the world does Marxism, Communism, the Moscow Patriarchate, etc have anything to do with Fr Robert's essay and Fr Oliver's support of it, and the lack of any decisive action on the part of the hierarchs of the OCA?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 06:18:53 PM »
You're trying to tell us the discussion isn't taking the course you'd imagined.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 06:27:22 PM »
"Now Fr Oliver has not done anything that I know of per se, he is however, by a cursory reading of what he posts on his blog, supportive of Fr Robert. He is also very "ecumenical" leaning, meaning specifically that he doesn't really believe there's substantial differences between how the west and east approaches salvation. You can read his most recent blog post about that topic."

What in the world does Marxism, Communism, the Moscow Patriarchate, etc have anything to do with Fr Robert's essay and Fr Oliver's support of it, and the lack of any decisive action on the part of the hierarchs of the OCA?

Fr. Oliver merely "supporting" an essay (not even actually writing it!) is hardly grounds for anything.

Also, the aforementioned essay by Fr. Robert has been discussed before on this website, and we've had several threads devoted to it. As many as 50% of the posters here also expressed support for Fr. Robert and think that those who are criticizing him are misrepresenting the point he was actually trying to make in the essay. (Just to be clear, I don't have an opinion on this matter myself, because I'm still in the inquiry stage and not yet Orthodox, so I don't think it's really my place to take sides).

Still, you should expect a lot of pushback on this form when you insult the OCA by claiming it needs to "man up" and discipline two priests for writing/supporting an essay that a good portion of the posters here also agree with, or at least think shouldn't be that big of a deal.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:29:48 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 06:27:26 PM »
My experience with the OCA wasn't so much "don't ask don't tell" as "don't ask, don't print it in the parish bulletin". Several members of the parish including the priest had dinner at our home and came to our gatherings and were clear that we are a couple. No problem for anyone.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 06:27:58 PM »
Tallitot:

Wait, you were part of the OCA? What made you decide to leave and convert (revert?) to Conservative Judaism?

(Sorry if you've been asked this question before. I just hadn't seen you or anyone else bring that up until now).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:29:39 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 06:31:20 PM »
Also, the Michael Berrigan Clark quote should be taken with a huge mound of salt. People can say anything they want to on the Internet. It's not something I'd take seriously in the slightest.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 06:35:24 PM »
Didn't this discussion die put a month ago? Apparently some are simply obsessed with the fact that not all of us are equally obsessed with gay issues and don't see homosexual boogeyman behind any clergyman who doesn't endorse tar and feathering of gay parishioners. There are several forums on which gay issues predominate the discussion. This is not one of them. I for one am glad this one has a broader, even when irreverent, perspective. And few, if ANY,  Orthodox posters here suggest "loosening" our faith' s rules or changing her teachings by the way.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:36:20 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2014, 10:53:03 AM »
I'll say one more thing about this and then I'll be done.

I think it is a judgmental assumption to assume that if this issue is concerning to someone, that that means they are obsessed with homosexuality. No, that is not true. Perhaps for some, yes, but for some of us who are Orthodox (right believing, teaching, glory) Christians, we are concerned about the Truth, and whether or not the Truth is being upheld and taught by the very ones ordained to so such things! What a novel thought! So really this accusation is a red herring and should not be paid attention to.

Another point I would like to address is that I don't agree and frankly I don't care if 50% or 1% or 100% thinks whatever about what Fr Robert meant in his essay. The Church is not a democracy, thanks be to God for that! Had that been the case, we would be iconoclastic Arians today!

Also, quite a few clergy have responded to what Fr Robert wrote, and criticized him for what he was (in my opinion) obviously implying. Over 70 individuals commented on the essay on the Wonder Blog site, most of them were clergy, some OCA clergy, and they criticized Fr Robert and they interpreted what he was saying as that the Church needs to question and change her teachings on the issue of human sexuality, family, and the beginning and ending of life. The clergy association of Houston came out with a response also criticizing Fr Robert and also seeing the same thing in Fr Robert's writings.

If this was an isolated incident, perhaps some commentators here on this site have a legitimate objection. However, this is not the 1st time Fr Robert has written such things. He does have a reputation that preceeds him. Nor is this the only incident in which questions about what the OCA really believes about homosexuality has been questioned by very sane, intelligent, faithful people.

I would also not assume that I personally don't know people who know him or who know people who have attended Fr Robert's parish, nor assume I have no personal experience with some of the other questionable incidences, so please do not assume I am writing purely out of some irrational fear or obsession. You don't know me, you are only reading words on a screen. Rather than dealing with the actual subject at hand, some here have decided to go on ad hominem attacks and throw around red herrings. And what do we say is the reason people do that?

Fr. Arida continues to spread confusion and scandalous ideas. He persists on using a worldly and twisted version of "love" that is a fraud. This "love" abandons a brother to his sin and does nothing to speak the clear and unambiguous truth to him. This "love" preaches a worldly Christ, stripped of His wisdom and authority. This "love" alienates the brother caught up in sin from the eternal truth, wisdom, love, mercy, and righteousness of GOD and prevents true healing from taking place. This "love" cuts off man from this Creator and shuts out the eternal light that must illumine all our hearts and souls, and is the only way in which our humanity can be restored and we can be saved and find real and everlasting joy.
 
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It is not loving to affirm a person in their beliefs or perspectives that run contrary to the blessings offered us in both Christ and His one, holy Church.
 
It is not compassionate to ignore truth in order to affirm a person in lies.
 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2014, 12:18:43 PM »
If you can read a dozen quotes about Christian theology and general virtue, and think you are reading anti-homosexual aphorisms, yes, you might be "obsessed."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2014, 12:23:28 PM »
If you can read a dozen quotes about Christian theology and general virtue, and think you are reading anti-homosexual aphorisms, yes, you might be "obsessed."

QFT. And again, I reiterate, I see few here on this Forum challenging the teachings of the Faith regarding homosexuality.  :(

Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2014, 12:45:56 PM »
@ Porter, nope, remember, words on a screen, you don't know the person writing the words...

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2014, 12:52:22 PM »
@ Porter, nope, remember, words on a screen, you don't know the person writing the words...

And, gosh, here I thought this was an internet forum. Let me ask you -- why are you "writing the words" if you are hoping yourself and your opinions will remain unknowable?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2014, 02:35:41 PM »
Why? What did he do?  Is his bishop not taking care of things?
Actually, no. Fr. Arida got a website shut down for quoting his essay.

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2014, 02:45:44 PM »
I think it is a judgmental assumption to assume that if this issue is concerning to someone, that that means they are obsessed with homosexuality. No, that is not true. Perhaps for some, yes, but for some of us who are Orthodox (right believing, teaching, glory) Christians, we are concerned about the Truth, and whether or not the Truth is being upheld and taught by the very ones ordained to so such things! What a novel thought! So really this accusation is a red herring and should not be paid attention to.

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Another point I would like to address is that I don't agree and frankly I don't care if 50% or 1% or 100% thinks whatever about what Fr Robert meant in his essay. The Church is not a democracy, thanks be to God for that! Had that been the case, we would be iconoclastic Arians today!

Some concern for the truth that is.

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Also, quite a few clergy have responded to what Fr Robert wrote, and criticized him for what he was (in my opinion) obviously implying. Over 70 individuals commented on the essay on the Wonder Blog site, most of them were clergy, some OCA clergy, and they criticized Fr Robert and they interpreted what he was saying as that the Church needs to question and change her teachings on the issue of human sexuality, family, and the beginning and ending of life. The clergy association of Houston came out with a response also criticizing Fr Robert and also seeing the same thing in Fr Robert's writings.

"Another point I would like to address is that I don't agree and frankly I don't care if 50% or 1% or 100% thinks whatever about what Fr Robert meant in his essay. The Church is not a democracy, thanks be to God for that! Had that been the case, we would be iconoclastic Arians today!"

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If this was an isolated incident, perhaps some commentators here on this site have a legitimate objection. However, this is not the 1st time Fr Robert has written such things. He does have a reputation that preceeds him. Nor is this the only incident in which questions about what the OCA really believes about homosexuality has been questioned by very sane, intelligent, faithful people.

I suppose your posts are an accurate reflection of the DC/Baltimore OCF, your parish priest, and the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America, then.

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I would also not assume that I personally don't know people who know him or who know people who have attended Fr Robert's parish, nor assume I have no personal experience with some of the other questionable incidences, so please do not assume I am writing purely out of some irrational fear or obsession. You don't know me, you are only reading words on a screen. Rather than dealing with the actual subject at hand, some here have decided to go on ad hominem attacks and throw around red herrings. And what do we say is the reason people do that?

Do you personally know Fr Robert?  Do you personally know people who know him?  Do you personally know people who have attended Fr Robert's parish? 

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Fr. Arida continues to spread confusion and scandalous ideas. He persists on using a worldly and twisted version of "love" that is a fraud. This "love" abandons a brother to his sin and does nothing to speak the clear and unambiguous truth to him. This "love" preaches a worldly Christ, stripped of His wisdom and authority. This "love" alienates the brother caught up in sin from the eternal truth, wisdom, love, mercy, and righteousness of GOD and prevents true healing from taking place. This "love" cuts off man from this Creator and shuts out the eternal light that must illumine all our hearts and souls, and is the only way in which our humanity can be restored and we can be saved and find real and everlasting joy.

"Another point I would like to address is that I don't agree and frankly I don't care if 50% or 1% or 100% thinks whatever about what Fr Robert meant in his essay. The Church is not a democracy, thanks be to God for that! Had that been the case, we would be iconoclastic Arians today!"
 
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“If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair.” ~ C.S. Lewis
 
"It is not loving to affirm a person in their sin.
 
It is not loving to affirm a person in their rebellion against both God and His created, natural order—not “supernatural,” or “unnatural,” but the way nature was always intended to be, revealed most perfectly in Jesus Christ and the Mother of God and all the Saints.
 
It is not loving to affirm a person in their beliefs or perspectives that run contrary to the blessings offered us in both Christ and His one, holy Church.
 
It is not compassionate to ignore truth in order to affirm a person in lies.
 
It is not compassionate to let people live a life contrary to the author of Life."
 ~ Gabe Martini
 
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/2014/08/orthodox-truth-in-an-age-of-relativism/
 
"Woe to you who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Woe to you who call sin virtue, and virtue sin. Woe to you who call love hatred, and hatred love. Woe to you who call foolishness wisdom, and wisdom foolishness. Woe to you who call falsehood truth, and truth falsehood.
 
“If your proclamation of the Christian Faith is not deemed to be a danger to the social norms of the fallen world... Then examine your Christian Faith and pray for the courage to go all the way. To preach love without discipline is to tell a lie. To preach of heaven without the consequences of hell is to cheat people of the truth. To sugarcoat sin is to be found complicit in its acceptance.” ~ Fr. Benedict Simpson
 
“Nothing can be more cruel than the leniency which abandons others to their sin. Nothing can be more compassionate than the severe reprimand which calls another Christian in one’s community back from the path of sin.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer


Rejoice, O Pillars of Orthodoxy.
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Time to Man Up
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2014, 03:18:26 PM »
It seems that the Pope has to address the same boogeymen over and over... from a wide ranging interview published yesterday in The National Catholic Review, comes this in response to a question regarding fear that the traditional doctrine of the  (Roman) church (regarding homosexuality) will be 'demolished' under his reign," Pope Francis pointed out that “nobody spoke about homosexual marriage in the(October 2014) synod (of Bishops on the Family), it didn’t occur to us. What we spoke about was how a family that has a homosexual son or daughter, how can they educate him/ her, how can they raise her/him, how can this family be helped to move forward in this situation which is a little unprecedented. So in the synod they spoke about the family and homosexual persons in relation to their families, because it is a reality that we encounter many times in the confessional”.  So the synod has to see “how to help this father or this mother who accompanies this son or daughter. That’s what was touched upon in the synod. For this reason someone spoke about positive elements in the first rough draft.   But that draft was relative.”  http://americamagazine.org/content/dispatches/new-interview-pope-francis-says-resistance-comes-open-good-sign

If we and the Romans are afraid to discuss such matters, let history and God be our judge.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 03:19:49 PM by podkarpatska »