Author Topic: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?  (Read 13035 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« on: December 04, 2014, 08:01:57 PM »
I remember coming across some lines in the liturgy that kind of sounded like that but I don't remember what answer I was given.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 08:07:13 PM »
What are "the Jews"? 
Quote
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 08:09:17 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 08:11:20 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 08:14:05 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.
St. Paul says it, anyway.

II Thes. 2.14B for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:15:26 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 08:16:56 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.

It seems to be an idea that's been floating around and pops up when some Orthodox ruler or elder is feeling some particular invective against the Jews, but I wouldn't call it a hard and fast dogma. No mention of it in Fr Michael Pomazansky's otherwise conservative Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, for example. What the Jews are or are not directly responsible for is not normally of any concern to Christians who are busy repenting of their own sins.

It links to a larger question of whether collective or national guilt is a real thing. Can one be guilty for some sin other members of your group committed, even if you didn't commit it yourself? This idea also has some currency.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 08:24:36 PM »
I think individual Orthodox (and humans generally) sometimes make strong sounding statements, which may be true, but are not the entirety of the story. I don't think the Orthodox Church "teaches" any one view, if by that we mean official or close to unanimous. Plus, I think it's certainly acceptable to say that, according to Orthodox theologies, all of us could be considered to have fallen with Adam and Eve, as co-participants, and all of us caused the death if Jesus--even if voluntary--whether each of us are an unintended cause, an indirect accomplice, or a direct and active historical participant (though this, also, is but one view, and distorts the whole if taken alone.)
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 08:30:18 PM »
Some Russian theologians argued that Soviet tyranny and the murder and exile of many Orthodox believers in Russia was a consequence of Russia's moral laxity, and in particular the failure of the Russian people to save their ruler from imprisonment and murder. St John Maximovich seemed to have believed and taught this. So there you have collective guilt, but on the part of Russians who are supposedly Orthodox!

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 08:33:48 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Which text in particular are you thinking of? I think generally it's a rhetorical device, e.g. in the Reproaches on the Matins of Great Saturday. The betrayal of the Messiah by His own people is a type of our betrayal of our baptism when we fall into sin. The message is not "it's all the Jews' fault so you don't need to worry about your own status before God", it's more like "don't be like the Jews when they condemned the Savior to death". Sadly, some Orthodox people have taken the former rather than the latter message to heart, e.g. during the 1903 Easter pogroms.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 08:40:27 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:41:38 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 08:45:57 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 08:49:52 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

What were the words you heard, again?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 08:55:07 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 09:07:03 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Which text in particular are you thinking of? I think generally it's a rhetorical device, e.g. in the Reproaches on the Matins of Great Saturday. The betrayal of the Messiah by His own people is a type of our betrayal of our baptism when we fall into sin. The message is not "it's all the Jews' fault so you don't need to worry about your own status before God", it's more like "don't be like the Jews when they condemned the Savior to death". Sadly, some Orthodox people have taken the former rather than the latter message to heart, e.g. during the 1903 Easter pogroms.
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the idea that current Jesus share some special guilt for His death:
Quote
Why so boastful Israel,
people tainted with blood?
why did you deliver Barabbas from his pains,
yet hand over Christ the Saviour to a Cross?
Quote
What perversity!
Come, most crooked race of Hebrews, tell us,
how could you condemn the Anointed One,
when you knew the temple would be raised again.

This one could be restricted to the followers of the Sanhedrin, but in context it doesn't seem like it:
Quote
Are you not ashamed?
Tell me, do not all those dead he raised up
shame you, for the Giver of life is he,
whom from spiteful envy, Jews, you did to death .

The next two specify those Hebrews who are Law-transgressors, at least:

Quote
Solomon declared it:
like a deep-dug pit the mouth
of Law-transgressing Hebrews.

And where's all the condemnation of the Italian nation for the soldiers that tortured and mocked Christ and Pilate who allowed an innocent man to die? I see other peoples being condemned for their sins, yes, but not for the Crucifixion specifically. We all killed Christ with our sins.

This seems to be an explicit connection to the all Hebrews everywhere:
Quote
To a post they nailed you,
who once your people sheltered
below a cloudy pillar.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWSat-M.htm

And given the fact that Orthodoxy makes such hay out of the liturgies representing both past and continued reality, it's hard to see these condemnations and anything butt extending to current Jews.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWSat-M.htm
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 09:08:50 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 09:12:29 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:12:54 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 09:13:21 PM »
All those references clearly refer to the Jews who were around at the Crucifixion, not to Jews everywhere. The whole context of those passages is clearly situated at the Passion itself. The final passage reproaches the Jews who crucified Christ with betraying the trust given to their ancestors by the pillar of fire. Nothing in those passages is explicitly aimed at Jews living after that time.

The Romans aren't given the same responsibility since they were already Gentiles and unclean. God expected more from the Jews.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 09:14:39 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 09:17:21 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.

Too true. But at St Markella's we had a very interesting character join our congregation. He was an enormous former Hasidic Jew who claims he abandoned Judaism when he found that it taught reincarnation (which is apparently a thing in Hasidic mystical teachings but not part of pre-Hasidic Rabbinical Judaism). But he still wore the sidelocks and a skullcap and got into fierce debates with our house anti-Semites. All round great fun!

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 09:18:03 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
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"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2014, 09:19:07 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2014, 09:20:22 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2014, 09:21:35 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2014, 09:23:24 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?
It was a rhetorical question more than anything.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2014, 09:24:40 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2014, 09:28:03 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?
It was a rhetorical question more than anything.

Ah gotcha. The blood libel definitely arose in specific historical circumstances, i.e. accusation against Ashkenazi communities in western and central Europe in the later Middle Ages. It doesn't appear among Christians in contact with Sephardic communities or among Muslims before the 19th century, where we assume it arose from European influence. Assuming the case of St Gabriel was the same kind of blood libel (which is not clear, e.g. no mention in any story of using St Gabriel's blood for matzos), then that seemed to come with contact between Orthodox people and the eastern communities of Ashkenazi Jews who had moved to Poland at the end of the Middle Ages.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2014, 09:28:28 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:28:57 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2014, 09:31:56 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:14 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:35 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

None of which, no matter how luridly interpreted, is blood libel.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:51 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2014, 09:35:34 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Wasn't every Council in essence also an apology for some portion of what had been seen to be the Church?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2014, 09:36:40 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2014, 09:37:02 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.

It's not true anyway.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2014, 09:38:57 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Wasn't every Council in essence also an apology for some portion of what had been seen to be the Church?

Hm that's an interesting way to look at it. Not sure how it would apply in the case of some global apology for anti-Semitism a la Vatican II.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2014, 09:40:58 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.

It's not true anyway.

Yeah I don't think it's the Arabs in those Antiochian churches that have particular love for the Jews. Some other guy came here and complained about how the Vespers hymn "Now lettest thou thy servant..." was horrible Zionist propaganda since it praised "Israel, thy people". What orthonorm means, I guess, is that for whatever reason Evangelical converts love to join the Antiochians, so lots of parishes will be full of cheerful Christian Zionists.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?
By the general implication that Jews are evil (and deserve social sanctions, based on the canons of Toledo).
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2014, 09:43:56 PM »
I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

I don't know that things need be like that, as apologies and denunciations can be fairly flexible, and seemingly can come from various motivations. Regarding the flexibility and as it relates to the Church, sometimes apologetic language or a certain tone or demeanor merely signal that you feel bad about something or consider it really unfortunate. To give an example from life, someone involved in some type of accident (especially involving a death), even if they are not in any way at fault, will nonetheless usually feel bad, and will express apologies, well wishes, explain how horrible they feel, and so on. Their response is out of sympathy, even if they (and perhaps everyone) do not believe that they have done anything wrong. (Philosophers dealing with ethics have a term for this, which I forget.)

I don't think the Church would need to say: "The Church/body of christ were anti-Semitic, sorry about that." It would seem to be good just to say: "Some people said and did some unfortunate and destructive things. Other people said and did things that later led others to do horrible things. We feel terrible that that happened. We preach love, humility, and not respecting the persons or favoring a particular person. To the extent that any one of us fell short of that, we apologize." The apology would be for the sins committed by Christians, sometimes bishops or patriarchs and saints, in the name of the Church. That doesn't mean you are saying the Church is stained or was compromised. When Jesus promised that "the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church," that included heresy, worldly powers, incorrect ideas, and personal and corporate sin--but he said the gates wouldn't prevail, he didn't say that the gates couldn't cause serious disruption and chaos.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:46:35 PM by Justin Kissel »
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2014, 09:46:14 PM »
I agree with Jonathan. The "Jews" in the New Testament usually refers to the specific group of Hebrews who were partly responsible for Jesus's death. But then again, aren't we all?

"Jew" today just denotes someone's ethnic lineage (unless one is a convert, which is not common), and even that could mean any number of things. Not all Jews are religious. Not all religious Jews practice Judaism (I'm one such example).

I can't say whether I'd prefer to be in a parish of antisemites or Christian Zionists. I guess the former for my theology, the latter for my safety.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2014, 09:47:02 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?
By the general implication that Jews are evil (and deserve social sanctions, based on the canons of Toledo).

So a pretty tenuous connection, in other words. As I said, the blood libel is not an element of universal anti-Semitism, at least not in the early period. For whatever reason it arose among Christians who had dealings with Ashkenazi Jews in the later Middle Ages and not elsewhere.

The council of Toledo does not have a lot of authority in the Orthodox Church. The Spanish Church was definitely still part of the whole Church at that point, but Toledo made certain decisions that were not universally accepted, most notoriously the insertion of the Filioque in the Creed.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 09:51:20 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 09:52:25 PM »
And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

Wouldn't that then refer to those who mock the Faith and deny Christ, a description which expands far beyond the Jewish people?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2014, 09:53:25 PM »

So a pretty tenuous connection, in other words. As I said, the blood libel is not an element of universal anti-Semitism, at least not in the early period. For whatever reason it arose among Christians who had dealings with Ashkenazi Jews in the later Middle Ages and not elsewhere.
See previous post..
The council of Toledo does not have a lot of authority in the Orthodox Church. The Spanish Church was definitely still part of the whole Church at that point, but Toledo made certain decisions that were not universally accepted, most notoriously the insertion of the Filioque in the Creed.
That's good, but they still made Isadore of Seville, the big pusher of those decrees, a Saint.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2014, 09:54:25 PM »
And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

Wouldn't that then refer to those who mock the Faith and deny Christ, a description which expands far beyond the Jewish people?
Wouldn't what? I'm talking about specific taunts to "blood stained Israel."
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2014, 09:58:11 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion. And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible. And yes Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do", but if you are forgiven for an offense, you are still responsible for that offense. The forgiveness simply means you no longer owe a penalty.

Most serious Orthodox believers just don't think about the Jews very much. They've enough to worry about with leading lives of repentance. I can see why for a Jew what the Orthodox think of Jews is the most important thing in the world, but for most of us it ranks pretty low in importance.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:04:32 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2014, 10:06:46 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Wasn't every Council in essence also an apology for some portion of what had been seen to be the Church?

Hm that's an interesting way to look at it. Not sure how it would apply in the case of some global apology for anti-Semitism a la Vatican II.

It's not the same at all, of course. We've the Body of Christ to discern and look out for -- they have the Vicar of Christ. ;)
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2014, 10:11:19 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion. And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible. And yes Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do", but if you are forgiven for an offense, you are still responsible for that offense. The forgiveness simply means you no longer owe a penalty.

Most serious Orthodox believers just don't think about the Jews very much. They've enough to worry about with leading lives of repentance. I can see why for a Jew what the Orthodox think of Jews is the most important thing in the world, but for most of us it ranks pretty low in importance.

Is this the no true Russian argument?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2014, 10:13:57 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion. And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible. And yes Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do", but if you are forgiven for an offense, you are still responsible for that offense. The forgiveness simply means you no longer owe a penalty.

Most serious Orthodox believers just don't think about the Jews very much. They've enough to worry about with leading lives of repentance. I can see why for a Jew what the Orthodox think of Jews is the most important thing in the world, but for most of us it ranks pretty low in importance.

Is this the no true Russian argument?
How many Russians are we talking about here? Do you meet and talk with a lot of antisemitic Russians? I know it's a cultural stigma, but how many modern Russian Orthodox are repentant of it?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2014, 10:17:12 PM »

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion.
Ok.
And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible.
As do I. I just see now reason to impart "national guilt" on Jews today, not that Orthodoxy necessarily does that.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2014, 10:20:12 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

It seems to me that instead of focusing so much on the past, it would be better instead to condemn those who in the present use Orthodoxy to justify their own hatreds.

I'm talking about Greece's Golden Dawn, Bulgaria's ATAKA, Serbia's "Obraz" and "Nacionalni stroj", etc.

It wouldn't take that much effort to hold another ecumenical council to anathematize people who promote those types of ideologies in the name of Orthodoxy. Such a council would basically amount to an Orthodox Barmen Declaration.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2014, 10:23:42 PM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2014, 10:26:10 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion. And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible. And yes Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do", but if you are forgiven for an offense, you are still responsible for that offense. The forgiveness simply means you no longer owe a penalty.

Most serious Orthodox believers just don't think about the Jews very much. They've enough to worry about with leading lives of repentance. I can see why for a Jew what the Orthodox think of Jews is the most important thing in the world, but for most of us it ranks pretty low in importance.

Is this the no true Russian argument?
How many Russians are we talking about here? Do you meet and talk with a lot of antisemitic Russians? I know it's a cultural stigma, but how many modern Russian Orthodox are repentant of it?

I think what he means is that I'm making a fallacious argument along the lines of "no true (Russian) Orthodox believer is anti-Semitic". I actually didn't say that, though. I'm saying that beliefs about the Jews are of relative unimportance. I know Orthodox in good standing who are anti-Semites, in that they believe in conspiracy theories about the Jews, possibly even the blood libel for all I know (though I never heard them talk about it). I also know Orthodox in good standing who don't buy into any conspiracy theories and are pretty pro-Israel to boot. What precise things you believe about the Jews just aren't a valid test of Orthodoxy. If you believe wrong things about the world that don't touch directly on the faith, you might be ignorant or stupid, but it doesn't necessarily make you un-Orthodox.

What you do with your beliefs is another matter. If you use your anti-Semitism to do violence or cheat or steal from Jews, you put yourself out of the Church by those actions.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2014, 10:30:10 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

It seems to me that instead of focusing so much on the past, it would be better instead to condemn those who in the present use Orthodoxy to justify their own hatreds.

I'm talking about Greece's Golden Dawn, Bulgaria's ATAKA, Serbia's "Obraz" and "Nacionalni stroj", etc.

It wouldn't take that much effort to hold another ecumenical council to anathematize people who promote those types of ideologies in the name of Orthodoxy. Such a council would basically amount to an Orthodox Barmen Declaration.

Focusing on the present makes a certain amount of sense. I don't know about the others, but I know Golden Dawn has anti-Orthodox, neo-pagan roots, so I'm not sure how much its ideology is compatible with Orthodoxy anyway. I think some kind of statement stating that the Church does not dogmatically hold to any particular conspiracy theories could go some way. It might be a good idea for the blood libel, since I talked to a monk who suggested it was a widespread belief still in some Russian Orthodox circles that Jews continue to sacrifice Christian children for the matzos every Passover.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2014, 10:35:15 PM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.
Yes, but Church Councils also issue canons dealing with practical matters of church discipline and order.

I'm with Minnesotan, throw the bums out just like they did with P**** Riot. I don't care if they're peaceful or not. They're living in sin and given the cultural context of the Church, especially in Eastern Europe, it would behoove the bishops to say something about this.

Maybe if I convert I'll bother my bishop to ask for it in 2016 ;D
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2014, 10:43:36 PM »

You seem to be looking for reasons to object. What we mean by "timeless" is that in a mystical sense the Passion takes place at the time it is celebrated on Great Friday, so we can address the actors as if they were really present. It still refers to those actors and not to anyone else. The Jews being referred to are the Jews taking part in the crucifixion.
Ok.
And the point is, however uncomfortable it makes Jews or anyone else today, we do believe the Jews participating in the crucifixion were responsible.
As do I. I just see now reason to impart "national guilt" on Jews today, not that Orthodoxy necessarily does that.

I would definitely say that national guilt for all Jews at all times is not a dogma, and it's not clear what practical consequence that would have even if it were a dogma. If a Jew accepts baptism, he becomes part of the body of Christ along with everyone else. If outside the Church there is no salvation, any added guilt for the crucifixion would not make much difference. If Jewish responsibility for the crucifixion is ever raised at all, it usually is framed as "this is what your ancestors did", not "this is what YOU did".

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2014, 10:45:54 PM »
I'm curious about this Fourth Council of Toledo, though. Some of the canons seem to involve strictly secular, temporal matters, like who gets to hold public office. Is this an early example of the Western Church overreaching itself and taking on secular responsibilities?

Also, I made a mistake earlier. It was the Third Council of Toledo that introduced the Filioque, not the Fourth.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:46:10 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2014, 11:01:35 PM »
What are "the Jews"?  

A race of people descended from Judah/Judea.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 11:02:42 PM by WPM »
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2014, 12:23:44 AM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.



At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:26:58 AM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2014, 12:25:43 AM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.




Where the heck did that one come from? I know all about the Stalin icons, but this is new.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2014, 12:28:59 AM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.




Where the heck did that one come from? I know all about the Stalin icons, but this is new.

This page which is positively full of schlocky and disturbing icons. Scroll about halfway down for the Hitler one. Did you know there were/are Old Believers who venerate Lenin as a Holy Starets? I didn't. And I'm not sure I wanted to know that.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2014, 12:31:35 AM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.


At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.

Please source that abomination of a picture. It is NOT an icon.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2014, 12:36:56 AM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.


At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.

Please source that abomination of a picture. It is NOT an icon.

This page has that one along with "icons" of Lenin, Stalin, etc.. The group that created it was the "Catacomb Church of the True Orthodox Christians" (RCC PTF).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:37:30 AM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2014, 05:23:00 PM »
I think I want to punch a Russian now *sigh*


Anyway, I realized I've been neglecting the OT prophetic angle on some of these passages. The Prophets could certainly be painted as, "anti-Babylonian" or "anti-Edomite" based on some of the things they said. Maybe that's not an excuse, but it does give me a new way to look at it.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2014, 05:35:25 PM »
I think I want to punch a Russian now *sigh*


Anyway, I realized I've been neglecting the OT prophetic angle on some of these passages. The Prophets could certainly be painted as, "anti-Babylonian" or "anti-Edomite" based on some of the things they said. Maybe that's not an excuse, but it does give me a new way to look at it.

Yeah, I'd say that Egyptians, Assyrians, etc., come off a lot worse in the OT than Jews or Israelites do in either the NT or in anything the Church Fathers wrote. That didn't ultimately dissuade the Copts or Assyrians from becoming Christian, though!

None of these things mean that bigotry of any kind is okay, but it seems like people who single out the NT or the Fathers for allegedly contributing to anti-Semitism are protesting too much. People like Daniel Goldhagen who call for the New Testament to be edited or censored have a lot of nerve, especially when they then turn around and attack Christians for historically having attempted censor the Talmud, even though the Talmud contains far more provocative or potentially offensive material in it than the NT does.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2014, 05:37:09 PM »
I think I want to punch a Russian now *sigh*


Anyway, I realized I've been neglecting the OT prophetic angle on some of these passages. The Prophets could certainly be painted as, "anti-Babylonian" or "anti-Edomite" based on some of the things they said. Maybe that's not an excuse, but it does give me a new way to look at it.

Yeah. The passages you quoted from the Liturgy are basically paraphrases of the Prophets.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2014, 05:51:31 PM »
I suppose you could say that, if collective racial guilt is possible, then Jews could be collectively guilty for the crucifixion. But I'm not sure it's wise to consider collective guilt as more than a rhetorical device, e.g. prophets denouncing the sins of Edom obviously don't literally apply to every Edomite. It doesn't seem to be a dogmatic issue, i.e. you don't have to believe all Jews are literally guilty, in order to be Orthodox, which I think is what it would mean if we said "the Orthodox Church teaches that all Jews are guilty of the crucifixion".

The only kind of collective sin I know of that is a dogmatic issue is the collective sin of humanity that was redeemed by the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ, but it's pretty controversial to claim this implies a collective guilt or direct responsibility. The usual understanding is that the sin of Adam is a collective condition of sinfulness, or "falling short". Often it's described as a collective stain or impurity. So you might say, by analogy, that the Jews share a collective stain for the crucifixion, and often this was invoked to explain facts about the Jewish condition, e.g. their exile, loss of the Temple and consequent wanderings and sufferings. But I wouldn't raise that to the level of dogma, making it into something you have to accept completely to be Orthodox.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 05:52:10 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2014, 06:24:46 PM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.


At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.

Please source that abomination of a picture. It is NOT an icon.

This page has that one along with "icons" of Lenin, Stalin, etc.. The group that created it was the "Catacomb Church of the True Orthodox Christians" (RCC PTF).

Just to note, that such groups can do whatever they want with photoshop, a computer and a few crazy followers. I daresay that said group no more represents modern Russians, modern Orthodox and any Christian than does the Westboro Baptist sect represent American Baptists.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2014, 06:37:55 PM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.


At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.

Please source that abomination of a picture. It is NOT an icon.

This page has that one along with "icons" of Lenin, Stalin, etc.. The group that created it was the "Catacomb Church of the True Orthodox Christians" (RCC PTF).

Just to note, that such groups can do whatever they want with photoshop, a computer and a few crazy followers. I daresay that said group no more represents modern Russians, modern Orthodox and any Christian than does the Westboro Baptist sect represent American Baptists.

So rather well?
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2014, 10:50:56 PM »
Heresy and anathemas have to do with important false teaching tearing the Church apart. Is that what's going on with neo-Nazism? ... It's too facile to condemn something small and obviously contemptible. Church Councils are for the perpetuation of the Church.

At the very least, though, you could issue a statement against those who make and venerate icons like this one.


At least in Greece, it's not a small problem. Golden Dawn is the third-largest party there and it only seems to be getting stronger. And I agree about them being basically a neo-pagan organization, however they do pretend to be Orthodox, which makes them dangerous.

Please source that abomination of a picture. It is NOT an icon.

This page has that one along with "icons" of Lenin, Stalin, etc.. The group that created it was the "Catacomb Church of the True Orthodox Christians" (RCC PTF).

Just to note, that such groups can do whatever they want with photoshop, a computer and a few crazy followers. I daresay that said group no more represents modern Russians, modern Orthodox and any Christian than does the Westboro Baptist sect represent American Baptists.

So rather well?
:laugh: ZING

Westboro is too anti-patriotic, though. As Fred Clark points out, today's white American Evangelicalism is first and foremost the Republican Party at prayer.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2014, 05:36:24 PM »
The worst are those secular Jews who are practically atheists but still like to call themselves Jewish because of the minority status it gives them, kind of like Black people who are adopted into wealthy White families.

Regardless, does the Church explicitly teach that the Jews as a collective, timeless whole are guilty and responsible for the death of Christ? And from there, does it teach that they are to be punished and discriminated against?

I know that anti-Semitism obviously exists in the Church, especially among those Slavs who will blame everything and anything they can on the Jews, but is it the product of the Church or is it merely baggage that people bring into the Church?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2014, 05:47:30 PM »
The worst are those secular Jews who are practically atheists but still like to call themselves Jewish because of the minority status it gives them, kind of like Black people who are adopted into wealthy White families.

Regardless, does the Church explicitly teach that the Jews as a collective, timeless whole are guilty and responsible for the death of Christ? And from there, does it teach that they are to be punished and discriminated against?

I know that anti-Semitism obviously exists in the Church, especially among those Slavs who will blame everything and anything they can on the Jews, but is it the product of the Church or is it merely baggage that people bring into the Church?

You don't say? ::) Also racism of other kinds, if your post is an indication.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 05:47:58 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2014, 05:49:52 PM »
The worst are those secular Jews who are practically atheists but still like to call themselves Jewish because of the minority status it gives them, kind of like Black people who are adopted into wealthy White families.

Regardless, does the Church explicitly teach that the Jews as a collective, timeless whole are guilty and responsible for the death of Christ? And from there, does it teach that they are to be punished and discriminated against?

I know that anti-Semitism obviously exists in the Church, especially among those Slavs who will blame everything and anything they can on the Jews, but is it the product of the Church or is it merely baggage that people bring into the Church?

As I suggested above, we can frame the question as follows: Is it a doctrine necessary for salvation to believe that all Jews everywhere and at all times are personally culpable for the Crucifixion? I'm quite sure the answer is "no", since I have never seen this doctrine proclaimed even in the most conservative catechisms, such as Metropolitan Philaret's Longer Catechism. So if I meet an accusation against the "Jews" in some liturgical text, I feel confident that it does not refer to all Jews everywhere, but only the Jews who directly took part in the Crucifixion.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2014, 05:51:24 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2014, 05:55:02 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2014, 06:03:23 PM »
Thank you. So, "Is it anathema to hold that Jews everywhere and always are not culpable ..."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2014, 06:09:27 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:12:00 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2014, 06:28:55 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.

I sympathize with your view; I also don't like the idea of collective guilt, but I'm not sure how much of my distaste is informed by my classically liberal upbringing and education and how much of it is informed by Orthodoxy. Collective guilt is actually found throughout Scripture and the Fathers, as we've seen: the prophets inveigh not only generally against the Gentiles, but against specific nations like the Canaanites and Edomites. The question is, do we interpret these instances as mere rhetoric, or do they mean that an individual can be held guilty simply as a member of some group?

As for the "original sin" debate, I've read enough about it to be wary of declaring either side of the issue "heretical". I recall that St Photios the Great catalogued the un-Orthodox teachings of St Augustine, when giving a justification for his inclusion among the Fathers, but his teachings on original sin were not listed. The concern with St Augustine's teachings on original sin doesn't arise until the 20th century, with critics of "juridical theory" from figures like Met Anthony (Khrapovitsy) of ROCOR and Fr John Romanides. I'm not aware of the Church addressing this matter synodically as yet.

So at this point, I don't believe you are a heretic if you believe all Jews are personally guilty. I also don't believe you are a heretic if you don't believe they are all guilty.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:29:43 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2014, 06:40:49 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.

I sympathize with your view; I also don't like the idea of collective guilt, but I'm not sure how much of my distaste is informed by my classically liberal upbringing and education and how much of it is informed by Orthodoxy. Collective guilt is actually found throughout Scripture and the Fathers, as we've seen: the prophets inveigh not only generally against the Gentiles, but against specific nations like the Canaanites and Edomites. The question is, do we interpret these instances as mere rhetoric, or do they mean that an individual can be held guilty simply as a member of some group?

As for the "original sin" debate, I've read enough about it to be wary of declaring either side of the issue "heretical". I recall that St Photios the Great catalogued the un-Orthodox teachings of St Augustine, when giving a justification for his inclusion among the Fathers, but his teachings on original sin were not listed. The concern with St Augustine's teachings on original sin doesn't arise until the 20th century, with critics of "juridical theory" from figures like Met Anthony (Khrapovitsy) of ROCOR and Fr John Romanides. I'm not aware of the Church addressing this matter synodically as yet.

So at this point, I don't believe you are a heretic if you believe all Jews are personally guilty. I also don't believe you are a heretic if you don't believe they are all guilty.

Yes, I think you are right (which is why I added the "more likely to be").

It's important to keep in mind that Augustine and "Augustinianism" are not the same thing. Gottschalk was condemned prior to the schism for teaching double predestination (which Augustine never actually taught, but Gottschalk and others saw as the logical extension of his theology).

Post-schism figures like Anselm and Calvin thought of themselves as Augustinian, but they were really more "hyper-Augustinian" ("hyper" meaning "beyond"). Augustine himself never taught federal headship or the penal-satisfaction theory, but these ideas arose among Western theologians who saw themselves as carrying on his legacy.

There's been a lot of debate as to whether "Nestorius was actually a Nestorian". I would argue that Augustine was not an Augustinian, at least not in the sense with which the word came to be identified in the post-schism West.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 06:42:52 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2014, 07:02:51 PM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.

I sympathize with your view; I also don't like the idea of collective guilt, but I'm not sure how much of my distaste is informed by my classically liberal upbringing and education and how much of it is informed by Orthodoxy. Collective guilt is actually found throughout Scripture and the Fathers, as we've seen: the prophets inveigh not only generally against the Gentiles, but against specific nations like the Canaanites and Edomites. The question is, do we interpret these instances as mere rhetoric, or do they mean that an individual can be held guilty simply as a member of some group?

As for the "original sin" debate, I've read enough about it to be wary of declaring either side of the issue "heretical". I recall that St Photios the Great catalogued the un-Orthodox teachings of St Augustine, when giving a justification for his inclusion among the Fathers, but his teachings on original sin were not listed. The concern with St Augustine's teachings on original sin doesn't arise until the 20th century, with critics of "juridical theory" from figures like Met Anthony (Khrapovitsy) of ROCOR and Fr John Romanides. I'm not aware of the Church addressing this matter synodically as yet.

So at this point, I don't believe you are a heretic if you believe all Jews are personally guilty. I also don't believe you are a heretic if you don't believe they are all guilty.

Yes, I think you are right (which is why I added the "more likely to be").

It's important to keep in mind that Augustine and "Augustinianism" are not the same thing. Gottschalk was condemned prior to the schism for teaching double predestination (which Augustine never actually taught, but Gottschalk and others saw as the logical extension of his theology).

Post-schism figures like Anselm and Calvin thought of themselves as Augustinian, but they were really more "hyper-Augustinian" ("hyper" meaning "beyond"). Augustine himself never taught federal headship or the penal-satisfaction theory, but these ideas arose among Western theologians who saw themselves as carrying on his legacy.

There's been a lot of debate as to whether "Nestorius was actually a Nestorian". I would argue that Augustine was not an Augustinian, at least not in the sense with which the word came to be identified in the post-schism West.

I take your point about St Augustine not being necessarily "Augustinian", but remember that Fr John Romanides specifically accused the saint of being the originator of what he frankly (pun intended) calls the "heresy" of original sin. All in all it's a thorny topic. For my part, I believe that we all inherit sin through Adam, but by "sin" I don't necessarily mean guilt, but the broader definition of sin as "condition of falling short, separation from God, etc". Whether this condition of sin includes also an element of guilt I cannot say. To make the guilt the most significant aspect of original sin, as Western theology seems to do, seems wrong indeed. But seeing as, with respect to every other sin, guilt plays a part in our consciousness of that sin, why should it not play some role in our consciousness of original sin? Coming to baptism in all humility, faced with the supreme and unearned gift of forgiveness of sins and union with Christ, would it be out of place to feel some personal responsibility not only for one's personal sins, but also for one's original sinfulness as a member of the human race?

Collective guilt is still alive and well and seems to play an important role in our psychology, despite whatever individualist ideologies we hold. Descendants of slavers feel responsibility for the sins of their ancestors, even if they never personally owned a slave. Even whites who have no slaver ancestors can feel responsibility simply by virtue of their race. In that context, a Jew might reasonably feel some responsibility for what his ancestors did to Christ, just as Jews today feel guilty for crimes committed by their Israeli brethren against the Arabs.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:04:01 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2014, 08:07:48 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Even today?  ???

The truth is you, me and every human being killed Jesus, from Adam until His Day of Return, especially when we sin.
Anything and everything else is balderdash and piffle.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2014, 12:24:11 AM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Even today?  ???

The truth is you, me and every human being killed Jesus, from Adam until His Day of Return, especially when we sin.
Anything and everything else is balderdash and piffle.
Agreed. And that's why I bristle at any language (even that in the NT, to my shame) that seems to single out the Jews as being especially guilty (of course, I'm also unfairly judging it based on later European anti-semitism, I realize).
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2014, 12:31:25 AM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.

I sympathize with your view; I also don't like the idea of collective guilt, but I'm not sure how much of my distaste is informed by my classically liberal upbringing and education and how much of it is informed by Orthodoxy. Collective guilt is actually found throughout Scripture and the Fathers, as we've seen: the prophets inveigh not only generally against the Gentiles, but against specific nations like the Canaanites and Edomites. The question is, do we interpret these instances as mere rhetoric, or do they mean that an individual can be held guilty simply as a member of some group?

As for the "original sin" debate, I've read enough about it to be wary of declaring either side of the issue "heretical". I recall that St Photios the Great catalogued the un-Orthodox teachings of St Augustine, when giving a justification for his inclusion among the Fathers, but his teachings on original sin were not listed. The concern with St Augustine's teachings on original sin doesn't arise until the 20th century, with critics of "juridical theory" from figures like Met Anthony (Khrapovitsy) of ROCOR and Fr John Romanides. I'm not aware of the Church addressing this matter synodically as yet.

So at this point, I don't believe you are a heretic if you believe all Jews are personally guilty. I also don't believe you are a heretic if you don't believe they are all guilty.

Yes, I think you are right (which is why I added the "more likely to be").

It's important to keep in mind that Augustine and "Augustinianism" are not the same thing. Gottschalk was condemned prior to the schism for teaching double predestination (which Augustine never actually taught, but Gottschalk and others saw as the logical extension of his theology).

Post-schism figures like Anselm and Calvin thought of themselves as Augustinian, but they were really more "hyper-Augustinian" ("hyper" meaning "beyond"). Augustine himself never taught federal headship or the penal-satisfaction theory, but these ideas arose among Western theologians who saw themselves as carrying on his legacy.

There's been a lot of debate as to whether "Nestorius was actually a Nestorian". I would argue that Augustine was not an Augustinian, at least not in the sense with which the word came to be identified in the post-schism West.

I take your point about St Augustine not being necessarily "Augustinian", but remember that Fr John Romanides specifically accused the saint of being the originator of what he frankly (pun intended) calls the "heresy" of original sin. All in all it's a thorny topic. For my part, I believe that we all inherit sin through Adam, but by "sin" I don't necessarily mean guilt, but the broader definition of sin as "condition of falling short, separation from God, etc". Whether this condition of sin includes also an element of guilt I cannot say. To make the guilt the most significant aspect of original sin, as Western theology seems to do, seems wrong indeed. But seeing as, with respect to every other sin, guilt plays a part in our consciousness of that sin, why should it not play some role in our consciousness of original sin? Coming to baptism in all humility, faced with the supreme and unearned gift of forgiveness of sins and union with Christ, would it be out of place to feel some personal responsibility not only for one's personal sins, but also for one's original sinfulness as a member of the human race?

Collective guilt is still alive and well and seems to play an important role in our psychology, despite whatever individualist ideologies we hold. Descendants of slavers feel responsibility for the sins of their ancestors, even if they never personally owned a slave. Even whites who have no slaver ancestors can feel responsibility simply by virtue of their race. In that context, a Jew might reasonably feel some responsibility for what his ancestors did to Christ, just as Jews today feel guilty for crimes committed by their Israeli brethren against the Arabs.
Here's what it boils down to for me. Based on his ideas of inherited guilt, Calvin said that every baby is a festering pool of evil that is vile in the sight of God and that there are babies in Hell the size of an adult hand. I'm pretty sure one can't blame that on St. Augustine, at the very least.

Everything else, to me, is completely academic since nobody except Christ and the Theotokos resists sin for very long at the outset of their older life. So, the "darkened nous/inherited propensity to sin" idea is really the only thing that has any practical value.

I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2014, 12:39:09 AM »
I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Can we agree that guilt is not of God?
If so, then give up that learned response, clean the eye of your soul and get back to doing better things than listening to propaganda.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2014, 12:52:52 AM »
I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Can we agree that guilt is not of God?
If so, then give up that learned response, clean the eye of your soul and get back to doing better things than listening to propaganda.

America's God now?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2014, 01:00:35 AM »
I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Can we agree that guilt is not of God?
If so, then give up that learned response, clean the eye of your soul and get back to doing better things than listening to propaganda.

America's God now?
What? How did you get that from what Len said?


Len, you're probably right. I'm not sure what to say, to be honest...
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2014, 01:01:20 AM »
Okay. So America's of God now?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2014, 01:11:21 AM »
Okay. So America's of God now?
Len said guilt is not of God. America was only even in the conversation tangentialy.

Porter, I'm not saying this to be mean, but I think you have serious reading comprehension problems. This is far from the first time I've seen you badly misconstrue someone else's post.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2014, 01:22:56 AM »
Gosh Volnutt, it's as tho I was responding to a post of yours. At any rate --

"Guilt is not of God" and so Len must upbraid you for not exculpating America. Is this third try at extracting his logic a charm, in your eyes?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 01:23:10 AM by Porter ODoran »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2014, 01:36:10 AM »
Gosh Volnutt, it's as tho I was responding to a post of yours. At any rate --
It was a conversation involving me.
"Guilt is not of God" and so Len must upbraid you for not exculpating America. Is this third try at extracting his logic a charm, in your eyes?
He wasn't "upbraiding me for not exculpating America" (which I was not even close to doing- black Americans and other non-whites are American too).

He was saying that there is no Godly reason for anybody to feel guilty for being part of a people group that is strongly associated with some historical crime. I'm not sure I agree with him, but I appreciate that he cares.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2014, 01:43:15 AM »
While I'm glad you two evidently are bonding, it's the idea of his post as well as the logic behind it that I'm trying to engage.

I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Can we agree that guilt is not of God?
If so, then give up that learned response, clean the eye of your soul and get back to doing better things than listening to propaganda.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2014, 02:03:37 AM »
What is this "Is it necessary for salvation" talk going around the forum lately? Makes sense from somebody like Yeshuaisiam, whose understanding of "salvation" is entirely different from Orthodoxy's. From others, I'm just confused.

It means this: are you a heretic if you don't believe all Jews are personally responsible for the Crucifixion?

I would argue that you're more likely to be a heretic if you do believe that the Jews (or another ethnicity/race/nation such as the Italians/Romans) are personally responsible for the Crucifixion solely because of their ethnicity.

"Imputed Guilt", for a sin you yourself didn't commit, is a concept foreign to Orthodoxy. It has more in common with radically Augustinian theologies in the west (such as those which teach that since Adam was our "federal head", we are therefore guilty, in a juridical sense, of committing his sin). Calvinists believe in the "federal headship" idea.

If all humans are personally guilty of Adam's sin because they are descended from him, it would also imply that other kinds of ancestral guilt (and national/racial/ethnic guilt) also exist.

But the Orthodox view, if I'm not mistaken, is that we are guilty only of our own sins, yet the reason why we sin is because our nature has become diseased as a result of Adam's fall. No one ethnicity or race is more affected by the Fall than any other.

I sympathize with your view; I also don't like the idea of collective guilt, but I'm not sure how much of my distaste is informed by my classically liberal upbringing and education and how much of it is informed by Orthodoxy. Collective guilt is actually found throughout Scripture and the Fathers, as we've seen: the prophets inveigh not only generally against the Gentiles, but against specific nations like the Canaanites and Edomites. The question is, do we interpret these instances as mere rhetoric, or do they mean that an individual can be held guilty simply as a member of some group?

As for the "original sin" debate, I've read enough about it to be wary of declaring either side of the issue "heretical". I recall that St Photios the Great catalogued the un-Orthodox teachings of St Augustine, when giving a justification for his inclusion among the Fathers, but his teachings on original sin were not listed. The concern with St Augustine's teachings on original sin doesn't arise until the 20th century, with critics of "juridical theory" from figures like Met Anthony (Khrapovitsy) of ROCOR and Fr John Romanides. I'm not aware of the Church addressing this matter synodically as yet.

So at this point, I don't believe you are a heretic if you believe all Jews are personally guilty. I also don't believe you are a heretic if you don't believe they are all guilty.

Yes, I think you are right (which is why I added the "more likely to be").

It's important to keep in mind that Augustine and "Augustinianism" are not the same thing. Gottschalk was condemned prior to the schism for teaching double predestination (which Augustine never actually taught, but Gottschalk and others saw as the logical extension of his theology).

Post-schism figures like Anselm and Calvin thought of themselves as Augustinian, but they were really more "hyper-Augustinian" ("hyper" meaning "beyond"). Augustine himself never taught federal headship or the penal-satisfaction theory, but these ideas arose among Western theologians who saw themselves as carrying on his legacy.

There's been a lot of debate as to whether "Nestorius was actually a Nestorian". I would argue that Augustine was not an Augustinian, at least not in the sense with which the word came to be identified in the post-schism West.

I take your point about St Augustine not being necessarily "Augustinian", but remember that Fr John Romanides specifically accused the saint of being the originator of what he frankly (pun intended) calls the "heresy" of original sin. All in all it's a thorny topic. For my part, I believe that we all inherit sin through Adam, but by "sin" I don't necessarily mean guilt, but the broader definition of sin as "condition of falling short, separation from God, etc". Whether this condition of sin includes also an element of guilt I cannot say. To make the guilt the most significant aspect of original sin, as Western theology seems to do, seems wrong indeed. But seeing as, with respect to every other sin, guilt plays a part in our consciousness of that sin, why should it not play some role in our consciousness of original sin? Coming to baptism in all humility, faced with the supreme and unearned gift of forgiveness of sins and union with Christ, would it be out of place to feel some personal responsibility not only for one's personal sins, but also for one's original sinfulness as a member of the human race?

Collective guilt is still alive and well and seems to play an important role in our psychology, despite whatever individualist ideologies we hold. Descendants of slavers feel responsibility for the sins of their ancestors, even if they never personally owned a slave. Even whites who have no slaver ancestors can feel responsibility simply by virtue of their race. In that context, a Jew might reasonably feel some responsibility for what his ancestors did to Christ, just as Jews today feel guilty for crimes committed by their Israeli brethren against the Arabs.
Here's what it boils down to for me. Based on his ideas of inherited guilt, Calvin said that every baby is a festering pool of evil that is vile in the sight of God and that there are babies in Hell the size of an adult hand. I'm pretty sure one can't blame that on St. Augustine, at the very least.

Everything else, to me, is completely academic since nobody except Christ and the Theotokos resists sin for very long at the outset of their older life. So, the "darkened nous/inherited propensity to sin" idea is really the only thing that has any practical value.

I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Well, I wouldn't say the Orthodox Church teaches that unbaptized children who die in infancy get a free pass to Heaven. There's a reason the Church has long practiced infant baptism. I think for most people the idea that unbaptized children would be severely tormented in Hell simply for original sin seems repugnant, so they prefer to imagine some kind of Limbo where the children don't suffer per se, but we can't put them on the same level as baptized children without undermining baptism itself.

I guess a corollary of this natural repugnance against undeserved punishment of unbaptized infants is a repugnance towards the idea of inherited guilt or collective guilt. I think it does go ahead the moral compass of many people to impute the sins of the fathers to the children. Certainly when you have some other person try to accuse you and make you feel guilty for something you had no part in, it is very irksome (one could bring up "white male guilt" and similar phenomena, though that's getting too close to politics). Christian anti-Semites who go on about Jewish guilt are also for the same reasons rarely going to persuade any actual Jews, just as bashing Catholics and insisting they accept responsibility for every atrocity ever committed by Catholics is very counter-productive.

Yet, I think all this falls into the problem of plucking the beam out of your own eye before picking out the mote in your brother's eye. Maybe collective guilt is reasonable and justified, but the supposedly guilty one has to come to a realization of his own responsibility. You can't force it on others.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2014, 02:07:34 AM »
Why wouldn't the Church accepting infants for baptism so that they can participate in the fullness of the Christian life along with their families be a satisfying reason for the tradition?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2014, 02:39:22 AM »

Well, I wouldn't say the Orthodox Church teaches that unbaptized children who die in infancy get a free pass to Heaven. There's a reason the Church has long practiced infant baptism. I think for most people the idea that unbaptized children would be severely tormented in Hell simply for original sin seems repugnant, so they prefer to imagine some kind of Limbo where the children don't suffer per se, but we can't put them on the same level as baptized children without undermining baptism itself.

I guess a corollary of this natural repugnance against undeserved punishment of unbaptized infants is a repugnance towards the idea of inherited guilt or collective guilt. I think it does go ahead the moral compass of many people to impute the sins of the fathers to the children. Certainly when you have some other person try to accuse you and make you feel guilty for something you had no part in, it is very irksome (one could bring up "white male guilt" and similar phenomena, though that's getting too close to politics). Christian anti-Semites who go on about Jewish guilt are also for the same reasons rarely going to persuade any actual Jews, just as bashing Catholics and insisting they accept responsibility for every atrocity ever committed by Catholics is very counter-productive.

Yet, I think all this falls into the problem of plucking the beam out of your own eye before picking out the mote in your brother's eye. Maybe collective guilt is reasonable and justified, but the supposedly guilty one has to come to a realization of his own responsibility. You can't force it on others.
If the repentant thief on the cross was saved, I don't see why an unbaptized baby wouldn't be. Maybe you can make a case for careless or lazy parents getting their children sent to Hell (but that isn't much easier to accept) but a stillborn baby couldn't possibly be baptized. If we can speculate till the cows come home about the fate of adults who never had a chance to convert or whatever, then we should be able to extend it to those who don't know what conversion and baptism even are.

At the very least, I'd call it a strong argument for truth of The River of Fire.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 02:41:34 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2014, 09:55:21 AM »
Okay. So America's of God now?

Yes, I find God had/has something to do regarding America. So? Others may think not.
The world at that time had no other notions, not even close, to what was started here. If you find another, let me know.

It is clear that any peoples, like America, has blood, shame and madness or can be accused of misdeeds in their struggles but you read me less than accurate.
It is where we teach our children the difference of shame or rightful pride. And why teach children and young people an ethos different from those guys that started this experiment?
If there are teachable moments in the life of a young one, we may teach them things that will affirm the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, or that all are created equal.
What a silly notion! "All are created equal" only works when you further teach them that before God all are equal, as leaving the "God particle" out begets all manner of silliness.
Yeah, to START a country BUILT on ideals and struggle to achieve and live out such is as silly as Orthodoxy. The only difference is that the former is an experiment while the latter is not.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2014, 09:57:02 AM »
While I'm glad you two evidently are bonding, it's the idea of his post as well as the logic behind it that I'm trying to engage.

I do agree with you about the psychological value of collective guilt. I know it's vogue to say this, but I do actually feel kind of guilty about American slavery, whether I should or not.

Can we agree that guilt is not of God?
If so, then give up that learned response, clean the eye of your soul and get back to doing better things than listening to propaganda.

So far I am not engaged in your thought process. Clarity is needed on both our parts?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2014, 12:33:11 PM »
Okay. So America's of God now?

Yes, I find God had/has something to do regarding America. So? Others may think not.
The world at that time had no other notions, not even close, to what was started here. If you find another, let me know.

It is clear that any peoples, like America, has blood, shame and madness or can be accused of misdeeds in their struggles but you read me less than accurate.
It is where we teach our children the difference of shame or rightful pride. And why teach children and young people an ethos different from those guys that started this experiment?
If there are teachable moments in the life of a young one, we may teach them things that will affirm the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, or that all are created equal.
What a silly notion! "All are created equal" only works when you further teach them that before God all are equal, as leaving the "God particle" out begets all manner of silliness.
Yeah, to START a country BUILT on ideals and struggle to achieve and live out such is as silly as Orthodoxy. The only difference is that the former is an experiment while the latter is not.

Thank you for expanding. As I feared, you are assigning a holiness to America of a kind you think ought arbitrarily to excuse her of sins.

I couldn't disagree more with that conclusion, and I think the logic it takes you to reach it is silly. We will certainly all bear some guilt for a system we support or from which we profit -- "Babylon the great is fallen! is fallen!" -- and to liken the founding of America to some sacred experiment, much less the Church, is silly but is also in my opinion to confuse wantonness ("liberty") with virtue -- "Shall we sin, that grace may abound?"

At any rate, to call appeals to conscience "propaganda" and to say "guilt is not of God" are fairly large moral mistakes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2014, 01:45:46 PM »
Why wouldn't the Church accepting infants for baptism so that they can participate in the fullness of the Christian life along with their families be a satisfying reason for the tradition?

OK, but why is full participation in the Christian life so important? They're more than just empty rituals. To say that unbaptized infants will be treated the same as baptized infants implies that baptism serves no function in itself.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2014, 01:52:05 PM »

Well, I wouldn't say the Orthodox Church teaches that unbaptized children who die in infancy get a free pass to Heaven. There's a reason the Church has long practiced infant baptism. I think for most people the idea that unbaptized children would be severely tormented in Hell simply for original sin seems repugnant, so they prefer to imagine some kind of Limbo where the children don't suffer per se, but we can't put them on the same level as baptized children without undermining baptism itself.

I guess a corollary of this natural repugnance against undeserved punishment of unbaptized infants is a repugnance towards the idea of inherited guilt or collective guilt. I think it does go ahead the moral compass of many people to impute the sins of the fathers to the children. Certainly when you have some other person try to accuse you and make you feel guilty for something you had no part in, it is very irksome (one could bring up "white male guilt" and similar phenomena, though that's getting too close to politics). Christian anti-Semites who go on about Jewish guilt are also for the same reasons rarely going to persuade any actual Jews, just as bashing Catholics and insisting they accept responsibility for every atrocity ever committed by Catholics is very counter-productive.

Yet, I think all this falls into the problem of plucking the beam out of your own eye before picking out the mote in your brother's eye. Maybe collective guilt is reasonable and justified, but the supposedly guilty one has to come to a realization of his own responsibility. You can't force it on others.
If the repentant thief on the cross was saved, I don't see why an unbaptized baby wouldn't be. Maybe you can make a case for careless or lazy parents getting their children sent to Hell (but that isn't much easier to accept) but a stillborn baby couldn't possibly be baptized. If we can speculate till the cows come home about the fate of adults who never had a chance to convert or whatever, then we should be able to extend it to those who don't know what conversion and baptism even are.

At the very least, I'd call it a strong argument for truth of The River of Fire.

The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. He would be counted as one of the righteous awaiting deliverance in Hades. Speculation about the fate of those who die outside the boundaries of the Church is usually not a good idea, since it can lead to heresy. I think we can legitimately hope that those who die outside the Church will be saved, but we can't make it a matter of faith.

I recall The River of Fire had more to do with reconciling God's love for all with the final judgment, of which eternal torment in Gehenna is a part. I don't remember Dr Kalomiros arguing that those who die without baptism will certainly be saved, but I might be mistaken.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2014, 02:08:32 PM »


The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. He would be counted as one of the righteous awaiting deliverance in Hades.
I don't see how that changes anything. The point is, somebody was saved without baptism.

Is this some kind of Orthodox Feeneyism where someone who dies without access to water and a priest goes to Hell no matter what they believe about God or what their intentions are?

I recall The River of Fire had more to do with reconciling God's love for all with the final judgment, of which eternal torment in Gehenna is a part. I don't remember Dr Kalomiros arguing that those who die without baptism will certainly be saved, but I might be mistaken.
That it is. But if everybody goes into the presence and love of God when they die and Hell only consists in the rejection of Him (as Kalomiros argues), then I personally think it follows that babies, who are incapable of rejecting God would be forever in the light of His love.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 02:09:37 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2014, 02:17:47 PM »


The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. He would be counted as one of the righteous awaiting deliverance in Hades.
I don't see how that changes anything. The point is, somebody was saved without baptism.

Is this some kind of Orthodox Feeneyism where someone who dies without access to water and a priest goes to Hell no matter what they believe about God or what their intentions are?

I recall The River of Fire had more to do with reconciling God's love for all with the final judgment, of which eternal torment in Gehenna is a part. I don't remember Dr Kalomiros arguing that those who die without baptism will certainly be saved, but I might be mistaken.
That it is. But if everybody goes into the presence and love of God when they die and Hell only consists in the rejection of Him (as Kalomiros argues), then I personally think it follows that babies, who are incapable of rejecting God would be forever in the light of His love.

All the Old Testament saints died without baptism. They were saved by their faith at the Harrowing of Hell, when Christ "went down alive into Hades". A better example would be certain martyrs for Christ who died without baptism; they are traditionally said to have been baptized "with blood". So yes, it's definitely possible, but the only certain examples we have involve unambiguous public confession of faith in Christ followed by a violent death. As I said, we can legitimately hope that others who died outside the Church will be saved, but we can't make it a matter of faith.

Dr Kalomiros is controversial. I would be careful of using his ideas as the authoritative voice of the Church.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 02:19:07 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2014, 02:28:42 PM »

All the Old Testament saints died without baptism. They were saved by their faith at the Harrowing of Hell, when Christ "went down alive into Hades". A better example would be certain martyrs for Christ who died without baptism; they are traditionally said to have been baptized "with blood". So yes, it's definitely possible, but the only certain examples we have involve unambiguous public confession of faith in Christ followed by a violent death. As I said, we can legitimately hope that others who died outside the Church will be saved, but we can't make it a matter of faith.]/quote]Ok.
Dr Kalomiros is controversial. I would be careful of using his ideas as the authoritative voice of the Church.
I know.

Sorry if I gave offense at all.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2014, 05:31:10 PM »
Why wouldn't the Church accepting infants for baptism so that they can participate in the fullness of the Christian life along with their families be a satisfying reason for the tradition?

OK, but why is full participation in the Christian life so important? They're more than just empty rituals. To say that unbaptized infants will be treated the same as baptized infants implies that baptism serves no function in itself.

Whether considered individually or collectively, it is humankind's salvation.

If the Church had decided to refuse baptism to the infants that Christian families' presented (and some Fathers thought they should), then they would have been saying in effect that the kingdom of God relies on man's intellect, or man's ability, or making other false implications like that. The Christ tells us he came to save the world, of whom, it can't be denied, infants and children are a rather large proportion.

In any case, "they'll burn in hell if they aren't baptized" doesn't really avoid the questions you think my comment raises, either.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 05:31:55 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2014, 05:33:05 PM »
The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. ...

This seems excessively legalistic. (And the law under which it would operate as a technicality -- well, where do you find it in the dogma of the Church?)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2014, 05:43:29 PM »
Why wouldn't the Church accepting infants for baptism so that they can participate in the fullness of the Christian life along with their families be a satisfying reason for the tradition?

OK, but why is full participation in the Christian life so important? They're more than just empty rituals. To say that unbaptized infants will be treated the same as baptized infants implies that baptism serves no function in itself.

Whether considered individually or collectively, it is humankind's salvation.

If the Church had decided to refuse baptism to the infants that Christian families' presented (and some Fathers thought they should), then they would have been saying in effect that the kingdom of God relies on man's intellect, or man's ability, or making other false implications like that. The Christ tells us he came to save the world, of whom, it can't be denied, infants and children are a rather large proportion.

In any case, "they'll burn in hell if they aren't baptized" doesn't really avoid the questions you think my comment raises, either.

Are you trying to argue that we can be certain children who die without baptism will be saved, or are you just arguing that they we can hope they can be saved? There's a crucial difference there.

I don't know the context of the Fathers you refer to, but I can certainly understand an argument along the following lines: if lax parents, who do not participate in Church life and who are very unlikely to raise their child in a proper Orthodox manner, bring their child to be baptized, the priest might refuse to perform the baptism since the parents, who are standing in for the child, have insincere faith. So it's analogous to a priest refusing to baptize an adult whose faith is obviously insincere. This is because, while it is better to be baptized than not baptized, it is still better not to be baptized than to be baptized, then fall away from the faith and earn greater condemnation for having spurned one's baptism.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2014, 05:46:54 PM »
The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. ...

This seems excessively legalistic. (And the law under which it would operate as a technicality -- well, where do you find it in the dogma of the Church?)

Where do you find your dogma that we can have any certainty those who die outside the Church will be saved?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #107 on: December 07, 2014, 06:10:27 PM »
The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. ...

This seems excessively legalistic. (And the law under which it would operate as a technicality -- well, where do you find it in the dogma of the Church?)

Where do you find your dogma that we can have any certainty those who die outside the Church will be saved?

Oh! So you're convinced that your rather elaborate technical explanation of pre- and post-Resurrection dispensations is the only way to preserve the integrity of the Church against the fact of saved ancients? I'm not so convinced.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2014, 06:14:01 PM »
Okay. So America's of God now?

Yes, I find God had/has something to do regarding America. So? Others may think not.
The world at that time had no other notions, not even close, to what was started here. If you find another, let me know.

It is clear that any peoples, like America, has blood, shame and madness or can be accused of misdeeds in their struggles but you read me less than accurate.
It is where we teach our children the difference of shame or rightful pride. And why teach children and young people an ethos different from those guys that started this experiment?
If there are teachable moments in the life of a young one, we may teach them things that will affirm the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, or that all are created equal.
What a silly notion! "All are created equal" only works when you further teach them that before God all are equal, as leaving the "God particle" out begets all manner of silliness.
Yeah, to START a country BUILT on ideals and struggle to achieve and live out such is as silly as Orthodoxy. The only difference is that the former is an experiment while the latter is not.

Thank you for expanding. As I feared, you are assigning a holiness to America of a kind you think ought arbitrarily to excuse her of sins.

I couldn't disagree more with that conclusion, and I think the logic it takes you to reach it is silly. We will certainly all bear some guilt for a system we support or from which we profit -- "Babylon the great is fallen! is fallen!" -- and to liken the founding of America to some sacred experiment, much less the Church, is silly but is also in my opinion to confuse wantonness ("liberty") with virtue -- "Shall we sin, that grace may abound?"

At any rate, to call appeals to conscience "propaganda" and to say "guilt is not of God" are fairly large moral mistakes.

I am at a loss to explain how you can draw a conclusion not given and then disagree with that incorrect conclusion!
If by assigning "holiness" to or country, you are right, we do stand apart from the world for reasons given and more. If you find God is either not involved in the lives of people or does not care about what men call politics and peoples en mass, then make your point as I see what is given is empty.
It is not "arbitrary to excuse her sins" and quite truthfully I have no idea what that fully means.
This communist notion of "collective guilt"...how does that work? How far back, in time, does it go? To Adam. Jesus, to Plymoth Rock, the Mexican War was mentioned....return those states? Slavery?o How would your ilk address that? It is absurd and not only on the face of it. Is there a system this side of Heaven that equilibrates the wrongs and rectification done to any group or persons? You call for the ideal of justice, but it is just that, an ideal. You have guilt for supporting....what system? Slavery, and you profited from this? Lucky you! Now go and dissolve those insurance companies that supported the vessels that brought those Africans to this country, taking them away from their paradise. Then distribute that money to their ancestors after you have racially profiled each, since having one drop of African blood makes that individual African. Glad we are getting over the racial divide! Besides, the DAR is already having a tough time admitting the Africans were here before they were.
Wait, you support the "you didn't build that' notion spoken to those that worked to build their businesses?
Now I get it! You drank the kool-aid and liked the taste!
As you cannot discern wantonness from liberty and are equating the two there, I may conclude you have other notions of our great country that must be handled outside this forum, per the rules.
Oh, I, as the founders did, do not bring The Church into the start of this country, but God , faith and His people, in the form of Providence. I see the word you use was "silly" regarding the logic.....good word, but then again, poorly applied.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2014, 06:26:43 PM »
Justice and sin aren't primarily political issues, and, yes, there are proper and blessed ways to handle them "this side of heaven." The Church (whose saints are the [i[true [/i] inspired and blameless ones) can be our teacher.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2014, 06:53:33 PM »
Justice and sin aren't primarily political issues, and, yes, there are proper and blessed ways to handle them "this side of heaven." The Church (whose saints are the [i[true [/i] inspired and blameless ones) can be our teacher.

Oh.
Ok
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Offline WPM

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2014, 06:57:23 PM »
Complete with the idea that man lives forever.  ;)
Learn meditation.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2014, 07:14:07 PM »
Complete with the idea that man lives forever.  ;)

Saints
The contents of The Creed
Marriage
All the virtues.
Loving your enemies
Creation
The Trinity

More foolish notions?
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2014, 09:06:43 PM »
The repentant thief is not a good example since he died before the Resurrection. ...

This seems excessively legalistic. (And the law under which it would operate as a technicality -- well, where do you find it in the dogma of the Church?)

Where do you find your dogma that we can have any certainty those who die outside the Church will be saved?

Oh! So you're convinced that your rather elaborate technical explanation of pre- and post-Resurrection dispensations is the only way to preserve the integrity of the Church against the fact of saved ancients? I'm not so convinced.

Well, the only saints we know of who didn't receive baptism are: 1) Old Testament patriarchs and prophets, and 2) New Testament martyrs who died after making a public confession of Christianity but before they could be baptized. If you wanted to persuade me that unbaptized children will certainly go to Heaven, you will need examples of unbaptized children who become venerated as saints. There might be such examples, but I don't know of any.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #114 on: December 08, 2014, 05:01:07 AM »
Complete with the idea that man lives forever.  ;)
You wanted an answer why people misunderstand you? Snipe comments like this with absolutely no follow up make you look like all you're here to do is troll.

But please, keep on telling us why you think Christianity is absurd but magick is worth looking in to. :laugh: ::)
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #115 on: December 08, 2014, 07:16:17 AM »
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 07:17:02 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.