Author Topic: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?  (Read 13042 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« on: December 04, 2014, 08:01:57 PM »
I remember coming across some lines in the liturgy that kind of sounded like that but I don't remember what answer I was given.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2014, 08:07:13 PM »
What are "the Jews"? 
Quote
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 08:09:17 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 08:11:20 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 08:14:05 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.
St. Paul says it, anyway.

II Thes. 2.14B for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:15:26 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 08:16:56 PM »
In the Bible- lot's of things, usually the Sanhedrin and their followers. In the antisemitic sense, which is what I was asking about- all non-Christian Jews everywhere and at all times.

It seems to be an idea that's been floating around and pops up when some Orthodox ruler or elder is feeling some particular invective against the Jews, but I wouldn't call it a hard and fast dogma. No mention of it in Fr Michael Pomazansky's otherwise conservative Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, for example. What the Jews are or are not directly responsible for is not normally of any concern to Christians who are busy repenting of their own sins.

It links to a larger question of whether collective or national guilt is a real thing. Can one be guilty for some sin other members of your group committed, even if you didn't commit it yourself? This idea also has some currency.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 08:24:36 PM »
I think individual Orthodox (and humans generally) sometimes make strong sounding statements, which may be true, but are not the entirety of the story. I don't think the Orthodox Church "teaches" any one view, if by that we mean official or close to unanimous. Plus, I think it's certainly acceptable to say that, according to Orthodox theologies, all of us could be considered to have fallen with Adam and Eve, as co-participants, and all of us caused the death if Jesus--even if voluntary--whether each of us are an unintended cause, an indirect accomplice, or a direct and active historical participant (though this, also, is but one view, and distorts the whole if taken alone.)

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 08:30:18 PM »
Some Russian theologians argued that Soviet tyranny and the murder and exile of many Orthodox believers in Russia was a consequence of Russia's moral laxity, and in particular the failure of the Russian people to save their ruler from imprisonment and murder. St John Maximovich seemed to have believed and taught this. So there you have collective guilt, but on the part of Russians who are supposedly Orthodox!

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 08:33:48 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Which text in particular are you thinking of? I think generally it's a rhetorical device, e.g. in the Reproaches on the Matins of Great Saturday. The betrayal of the Messiah by His own people is a type of our betrayal of our baptism when we fall into sin. The message is not "it's all the Jews' fault so you don't need to worry about your own status before God", it's more like "don't be like the Jews when they condemned the Savior to death". Sadly, some Orthodox people have taken the former rather than the latter message to heart, e.g. during the 1903 Easter pogroms.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 08:40:27 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:41:38 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 08:45:57 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 08:49:52 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

What were the words you heard, again?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 08:55:07 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 09:07:03 PM »
He was surely brought to death by them of Judaea.
All of them?

Which text in particular are you thinking of? I think generally it's a rhetorical device, e.g. in the Reproaches on the Matins of Great Saturday. The betrayal of the Messiah by His own people is a type of our betrayal of our baptism when we fall into sin. The message is not "it's all the Jews' fault so you don't need to worry about your own status before God", it's more like "don't be like the Jews when they condemned the Savior to death". Sadly, some Orthodox people have taken the former rather than the latter message to heart, e.g. during the 1903 Easter pogroms.
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the idea that current Jesus share some special guilt for His death:
Quote
Why so boastful Israel,
people tainted with blood?
why did you deliver Barabbas from his pains,
yet hand over Christ the Saviour to a Cross?
Quote
What perversity!
Come, most crooked race of Hebrews, tell us,
how could you condemn the Anointed One,
when you knew the temple would be raised again.

This one could be restricted to the followers of the Sanhedrin, but in context it doesn't seem like it:
Quote
Are you not ashamed?
Tell me, do not all those dead he raised up
shame you, for the Giver of life is he,
whom from spiteful envy, Jews, you did to death .

The next two specify those Hebrews who are Law-transgressors, at least:

Quote
Solomon declared it:
like a deep-dug pit the mouth
of Law-transgressing Hebrews.

And where's all the condemnation of the Italian nation for the soldiers that tortured and mocked Christ and Pilate who allowed an innocent man to die? I see other peoples being condemned for their sins, yes, but not for the Crucifixion specifically. We all killed Christ with our sins.

This seems to be an explicit connection to the all Hebrews everywhere:
Quote
To a post they nailed you,
who once your people sheltered
below a cloudy pillar.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWSat-M.htm

And given the fact that Orthodoxy makes such hay out of the liturgies representing both past and continued reality, it's hard to see these condemnations and anything butt extending to current Jews.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWSat-M.htm
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 09:08:50 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 09:12:29 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:12:54 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 09:13:21 PM »
All those references clearly refer to the Jews who were around at the Crucifixion, not to Jews everywhere. The whole context of those passages is clearly situated at the Passion itself. The final passage reproaches the Jews who crucified Christ with betraying the trust given to their ancestors by the pillar of fire. Nothing in those passages is explicitly aimed at Jews living after that time.

The Romans aren't given the same responsibility since they were already Gentiles and unclean. God expected more from the Jews.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 09:14:39 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 09:17:21 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.

Too true. But at St Markella's we had a very interesting character join our congregation. He was an enormous former Hasidic Jew who claims he abandoned Judaism when he found that it taught reincarnation (which is apparently a thing in Hasidic mystical teachings but not part of pre-Hasidic Rabbinical Judaism). But he still wore the sidelocks and a skullcap and got into fierce debates with our house anti-Semites. All round great fun!

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 09:18:03 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2014, 09:19:07 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2014, 09:20:22 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2014, 09:21:35 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2014, 09:23:24 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?
It was a rhetorical question more than anything.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2014, 09:24:40 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2014, 09:28:03 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Bloodlibel specifically is the charge that the Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzo. It springs from the accusation of being culpable for the death of Christ, but is not the only form of Christian antisemitism then or now. And I'd have to see some evidence that it never occurred in the Orthodox world prior to the 17th Century (Gavrill of Belostock).

Um are you asking us to prove a negative? Why don't you look for evidence that the blood libel existed before St Gabriel?
It was a rhetorical question more than anything.

Ah gotcha. The blood libel definitely arose in specific historical circumstances, i.e. accusation against Ashkenazi communities in western and central Europe in the later Middle Ages. It doesn't appear among Christians in contact with Sephardic communities or among Muslims before the 19th century, where we assume it arose from European influence. Assuming the case of St Gabriel was the same kind of blood libel (which is not clear, e.g. no mention in any story of using St Gabriel's blood for matzos), then that seemed to come with contact between Orthodox people and the eastern communities of Ashkenazi Jews who had moved to Poland at the end of the Middle Ages.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2014, 09:28:28 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:28:57 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2014, 09:31:56 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:14 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:35 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

None of which, no matter how luridly interpreted, is blood libel.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2014, 09:33:51 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2014, 09:35:34 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Wasn't every Council in essence also an apology for some portion of what had been seen to be the Church?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2014, 09:36:40 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2014, 09:37:02 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.

It's not true anyway.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2014, 09:38:57 PM »
I don't know much about blood libel or anti-Semitism in Orthodox countries, but just as a comment on using Church history: it could be used to justify all manner of things, if people just point to particular instances/texts/actions and understand them in a very simple and surface-level manner. Arranged marriages for 12 year olds (and younger), destroying churches and such of other religions, cutting off hands, owning slaves, etc. could all be justified by pointing to examples from Christian history of things people--and even saints--did. And such examples shouldn't be ignored or simply explained away. Still, that doesn't mean that it represents some kind of Orthodox teaching or official belief, nor should it justify doing bad things these days. I think the Orthodox Church teaches something akin to replacement theology, which apparently some find to be anti-Jewish, but that's about as far as it goes officially, so far as I know.
Ay. It would be nice to see a denunciation or something like the Vatican has done with their anit-semitic past though.

I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

Wasn't every Council in essence also an apology for some portion of what had been seen to be the Church?

Hm that's an interesting way to look at it. Not sure how it would apply in the case of some global apology for anti-Semitism a la Vatican II.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2014, 09:40:58 PM »
I've always said: don't take your Jewish friends to the parish during Holy Week. The angels dancing on pins above aren't likely going to help much.

Just take your Jew friends to the parish just about any other time, if the parish isn't Russian, Serbian, Romanian, er, I think you get my point.
And not Arabic? I would assume that that would be even worse. Though I think a line can be drawn between specific teachings and general cultural antisemitism which is arguably rooted in Christianity but has had other factors contributing to it.

So why wasn't this a factor in your leaving Orthodoxy? You can PM me if you don't want to get into it here.

Arabic? You mean Antiochian? They are semitiphile hyperverts. Nothing would make them more thrilled than to see a Jew on Easter.
That's good to know. No Antiochian churchs round here, sadly.

It's not true anyway.

Yeah I don't think it's the Arabs in those Antiochian churches that have particular love for the Jews. Some other guy came here and complained about how the Vespers hymn "Now lettest thou thy servant..." was horrible Zionist propaganda since it praised "Israel, thy people". What orthonorm means, I guess, is that for whatever reason Evangelical converts love to join the Antiochians, so lots of parishes will be full of cheerful Christian Zionists.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2014, 09:43:33 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?
By the general implication that Jews are evil (and deserve social sanctions, based on the canons of Toledo).
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2014, 09:43:56 PM »
I don't think the Church has ever apologized for anything. It would imply the Body of Christ was culpable or impure, so I can't see it happening over this issue or any other. With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.

I don't know that things need be like that, as apologies and denunciations can be fairly flexible, and seemingly can come from various motivations. Regarding the flexibility and as it relates to the Church, sometimes apologetic language or a certain tone or demeanor merely signal that you feel bad about something or consider it really unfortunate. To give an example from life, someone involved in some type of accident (especially involving a death), even if they are not in any way at fault, will nonetheless usually feel bad, and will express apologies, well wishes, explain how horrible they feel, and so on. Their response is out of sympathy, even if they (and perhaps everyone) do not believe that they have done anything wrong. (Philosophers dealing with ethics have a term for this, which I forget.)

I don't think the Church would need to say: "The Church/body of christ were anti-Semitic, sorry about that." It would seem to be good just to say: "Some people said and did some unfortunate and destructive things. Other people said and did things that later led others to do horrible things. We feel terrible that that happened. We preach love, humility, and not respecting the persons or favoring a particular person. To the extent that any one of us fell short of that, we apologize." The apology would be for the sins committed by Christians, sometimes bishops or patriarchs and saints, in the name of the Church. That doesn't mean you are saying the Church is stained or was compromised. When Jesus promised that "the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church," that included heresy, worldly powers, incorrect ideas, and personal and corporate sin--but he said the gates wouldn't prevail, he didn't say that the gates couldn't cause serious disruption and chaos.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:46:35 PM by Justin Kissel »

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2014, 09:46:14 PM »
I agree with Jonathan. The "Jews" in the New Testament usually refers to the specific group of Hebrews who were partly responsible for Jesus's death. But then again, aren't we all?

"Jew" today just denotes someone's ethnic lineage (unless one is a convert, which is not common), and even that could mean any number of things. Not all Jews are religious. Not all religious Jews practice Judaism (I'm one such example).

I can't say whether I'd prefer to be in a parish of antisemites or Christian Zionists. I guess the former for my theology, the latter for my safety.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2014, 09:47:02 PM »
Of course he wasn't talking about bloodlibel, if that's what you're asking.
That's what I was asking about, yeah. Although I question whether Paul was talking about Jews and proselytes who didn't persecute Christians, the clauses seem to be linked.

Bloodlibel is a whole other thing. You don't starting hearing about that til the late Middle Ages, and originally only in Western Europe.
Sure, but the people who began it were able to Church history to justify it.

Not sure how. Explain?
St. John Chrysostom is an easy source (yes, I've heard the arguments that it was Judaizers, not Jews that he was writing against. I'm not saying anti-semites have to be intelligent. St. Ambrose advising the emperor not to pay money to rebuild a synagogue that was trashed by rioting monks. And then there's the 633 Council of Toledo which forbade Jews and their children from holding office, among other things. https://suite.io/michel-amyot/3nzr2j5

How does any of that lead to the blood libel?
By the general implication that Jews are evil (and deserve social sanctions, based on the canons of Toledo).

So a pretty tenuous connection, in other words. As I said, the blood libel is not an element of universal anti-Semitism, at least not in the early period. For whatever reason it arose among Christians who had dealings with Ashkenazi Jews in the later Middle Ages and not elsewhere.

The council of Toledo does not have a lot of authority in the Orthodox Church. The Spanish Church was definitely still part of the whole Church at that point, but Toledo made certain decisions that were not universally accepted, most notoriously the insertion of the Filioque in the Creed.

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 09:51:20 PM »
With all those things Justin Kissel mentions, you'd have to show that somehow the Church was directly responsible for them before demanding an apology. A tall order, for sure.
Incorporating liturgies that are, at the very least, easily misunderstood?

Yeah, not good enough. As I said, the context makes it pretty clear that the Jews referred to are the Jews of the story of the Passion. Of course, if you really get into the story you might start thinking it's the Jews you meet every day, but if that makes you feel like smashing a Jewish shop and beating a Jew to death, the Church has pretty clear rules about both those behaviors. But then we're still talking about pogroms, not the blood libel. What's the connection between those instances of anti-Semitism and the blood libel, other than that they're all anti-Semitic?
I don't care what specific notarguments led some kuckledragger in 13th Century Marseille to conclude that the Jews down the road wanted to eat his children. Hatred leads to violence. I'm just saying that Orthodoxy seems to share in the indirect guilt for that fanning that hatred, at least pre-Schism.

And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?
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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 09:52:25 PM »
And I don't accept that those hymns are only referring to the Jews of Christ's day, because everything in the Orthodox liturgy is supposed to be timeless. Why waste time in taunting people who are already burning in Hell?

Wouldn't that then refer to those who mock the Faith and deny Christ, a description which expands far beyond the Jewish people?

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Re: Does the Orthodox Church teach that the Jews killed Jesus?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2014, 09:53:25 PM »

So a pretty tenuous connection, in other words. As I said, the blood libel is not an element of universal anti-Semitism, at least not in the early period. For whatever reason it arose among Christians who had dealings with Ashkenazi Jews in the later Middle Ages and not elsewhere.
See previous post..
The council of Toledo does not have a lot of authority in the Orthodox Church. The Spanish Church was definitely still part of the whole Church at that point, but Toledo made certain decisions that were not universally accepted, most notoriously the insertion of the Filioque in the Creed.
That's good, but they still made Isadore of Seville, the big pusher of those decrees, a Saint.
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