Author Topic: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion  (Read 4143 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
(Just wanting to discuss)

(KJV) Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

A lot of times I hear that "adultery" is the only reason a man can put away his wife.  Interestingly, the word "fornication" was used by King James along with several other bible interpretations.   Codex Sinaiticus interpretation used the word "lewdness".   But MANY other bible translations use "fornication".

Of course we can say that the two are the same, but really, they are not.  Fornication of course is not adultery either.

A wife can't "fornicate" if she is married.  This is because if she is married, she can only commit adultery.

So as I was reading some in Deuteronomy (23) the use of the word "fornicate" seems to coincide with this scripture.   Where a man who gets married to a woman that claims she is a virgin later finds out she is not...  He can put her away in this case.   

If this is what Jesus meant, that a man can only put his wife away if he found her to have fornicated before they were married, then there are many people professing Christ in this world who are seemingly divorcing over adultery and should not be.

Anyway, I thought this would make an interesting discussion.

***As a very interesting side note, according to strong's the root word for "fornicate" is pronounced "porneia" OR "Porn-i-ah".   Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 04:13:39 PM »
Porneia is more akin to prostitution than to fornication.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 05:06:48 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,841
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 07:05:13 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

Porter is back!  :)
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 07:24:43 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

I don't know; I think Yesh is onto something here.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,719
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 08:01:15 PM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 08:38:15 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

I don't know; I think Yesh is onto something here.

He is; much like the early reader who notices "rain" in "rainbow."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 09:00:37 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

I don't know; I think Yesh is onto something here.

He is; much like the early reader who notices "rain" in "rainbow."
Porter is back with his witticisms! Yay!  ;D
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 09:09:50 PM »
The serious point is that we American Christians outside the Church are continually in the habit of second-guessing the Fathers and Holy Tradition, regardless of our own ability, but especially if we think we've found something clever -- as tho to do so were not megalomania at all.

Thanks for the welcomes. :)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 09:24:07 PM »
The serious point is that we American Christians outside the Church are continually in the habit of second-guessing the Fathers and Holy Tradition, regardless of our own ability, but especially if we think we've found something clever -- as tho to do so were not megalomania at all.

Thanks for the welcomes. :)

I wouldn't limit your observation about Americans, abilty, cleverness and megalomania to American Christians....

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,839
  • Excelsior
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 09:38:10 PM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

Porter is back!  :)

Yay, it's Homecoming Week!
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Chiere

  • Reserve Grand Champion
  • Penalty Box
  • High Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 712
  • Lugia stares deep into the depths of your soul
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Indianapolis
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 12:06:55 AM »
But the Church teaches that a man is not to divorce his wife for any reason, even fornication or adultery.

To God Be the Glory!

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 12:07:43 AM »
But the Roman Catholic Church teaches that a man is not to divorce his wife for any reason, even fornication or adultery.
Fixed it for you. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 12:25:06 AM »
... Kind of interesting the similarity of that root word & pornography.

It was at about this point you should have realized you were in over your head.

I don't know; I think Yesh is onto something here.

Above I meant Deuteronomy 22.

I think it is very interesting how the word "adultery" is used in other places in Matthew, but in this verse fornication is used.   Both coming from different root words.

The marriage procedure in that day would be (keeping it simple):
1. Betrothal (Actual Marriage / dowry exchanged).
2. Man leaves to build a home/prepare a home.
3. Bridegroom comes and takes his wife back to his home.

The "consummation" would take place after the man takes his bride (bridegroom comes).  If a man found that his bride was not pure (fornication) as stated in Deuteronomy, he could put her away.

I'd be curious why the root words are different between fornication and adultery from these spoken words of our savior.  

Of course I may be reading more into this than I should, but I'm finding this very interesting as it appears to coincide with some ancient teachings.   Also, reading the text directly and understanding Hebrew culture, women can't put away their husbands - period.  
 :-\
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 12:28:22 AM »
But the Church teaches that a man is not to divorce his wife for any reason, even fornication or adultery.
But God told us we can indeed put her away for fornication.  As PtA also stated you meant the RC church.  EO frowns heavily on divorce (at least here in America).  They unfortunately do happen and usually quietly (as far as the church is concerned) after adultery.  It's actually kind of rare for it to happen for attending/practicing EO.

EDIT ***I'd also assume it is frowned on worldwide in any EO church. I just know specifically for America***
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 12:44:41 AM by yeshuaisiam »
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 12:43:25 AM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.

I see.   I am sort of aware yet confused how the two words seem to be used interchangeably.  Such as in Matthew 5:28 the word "emoicheusen" or it seems (to me anyway) to be a committing version (action) of the Moicheia that you stated earlier.

What is interesting here is that Jesus states "any man" or "whosoever" looketh at a woman lustfully has committed adultery in his heart.

It is odd how there are two different root words here.  From what I can see from this angle is that a man (married or not) that looks lustfully at a woman commits adultery.   Yet a married woman fornicates?

It seems sort of like the root words are backwards.   Such as "commits fornication in his heart" (if fornication is a broad spectrum word)...  Adultery just seems so specific to marriage.

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2014, 12:57:52 AM »
You are, for whatever reason, making this too complicated. If Deacon Lance were to draw a diagram, I think it would show "adultery" as a small circle entirely enclosed by a large circle named "fornication." The simple answer as to why our Lord used "fornication" instead of "adultery" here is because he was teaching that for sexual misbehaviors besides adultery a man may divorce his wife or a woman her husband.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline WPM

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,469
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2014, 01:22:26 AM »
My understanding is that evil comes from corrupted desires ... Which also includes sexual desires, ... Its a bit unclear.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 01:22:57 AM by WPM »
Learn meditation.

Offline Chiere

  • Reserve Grand Champion
  • Penalty Box
  • High Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 712
  • Lugia stares deep into the depths of your soul
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Indianapolis
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2014, 04:24:49 AM »
But the Roman Catholic Church teaches that a man is not to divorce his wife for any reason, even fornication or adultery.
Fixed it for you. ;)

Thank you. I should really try to be more specific, and also remember that for most of you, the "Church" is the Orthodox Church, not Roman Catolic. Sorry about that.

To God Be the Glory!

Offline Randa

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2014, 05:31:26 AM »
Porneia means sexual immorality, that includes adultery, fornication, prostitution and anything else God considers sexual immorality (see Leviticus 18:6-29). Porneia is used in the book of Revelation to refer to idolatry, it is also used in the LXX to refer to idolatry, here's a complete list of relevant verses from the LXX:

Genesis 38:24; Numbers 14:33; 2 Kings 9:22; Isaiah 47:10; 57:9; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:2, 9; 13:27; Ezekiel 16:15, 22, 25, 33f, 36, 41; 23:7f, 11, 14, 17ff, 27, 29, 35; 43:7, 9; Hosea 1:2; 2:4, 6; 4:11f; 5:4; 6:10; Micah 1:7; Nahum 3:4.

Here's an exposition of porneia as idolatry, and how that relates to divorce and remarriage, it's a very interesting read:

http://www.eliyah.com/family/divorceremarriage.html

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2014, 02:40:19 PM »
You are, for whatever reason, making this too complicated. If Deacon Lance were to draw a diagram, I think it would show "adultery" as a small circle entirely enclosed by a large circle named "fornication." The simple answer as to why our Lord used "fornication" instead of "adultery" here is because he was teaching that for sexual misbehaviors besides adultery a man may divorce his wife or a woman her husband.

Yes.  I just read it as a man can divorce his wife.... (But not the wife her husband)

Is this a Greek understanding of the two words and do you happen to know if rooting in Hebrew/Aramaic if fornication would be a broad spectrum which adultery was a sub-category?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2014, 02:45:00 PM »
Porneia means sexual immorality, that includes adultery, fornication, prostitution and anything else God considers sexual immorality (see Leviticus 18:6-29). Porneia is used in the book of Revelation to refer to idolatry, it is also used in the LXX to refer to idolatry, here's a complete list of relevant verses from the LXX:

Genesis 38:24; Numbers 14:33; 2 Kings 9:22; Isaiah 47:10; 57:9; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:2, 9; 13:27; Ezekiel 16:15, 22, 25, 33f, 36, 41; 23:7f, 11, 14, 17ff, 27, 29, 35; 43:7, 9; Hosea 1:2; 2:4, 6; 4:11f; 5:4; 6:10; Micah 1:7; Nahum 3:4.

Here's an exposition of porneia as idolatry, and how that relates to divorce and remarriage, it's a very interesting read:

http://www.eliyah.com/family/divorceremarriage.html

Randa, that was an incredible read - that was a large study that person did!
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,117
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2014, 02:54:33 PM »
--
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 03:03:42 PM by jah777 »

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,195
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 03:16:01 PM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.
Just to add to this correct post: z'na is the semitic vorlage of porneia, meaning, as stated here, immoral sexual relationships in general.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2014, 04:30:04 PM »
Yes.  I just read it as a man can divorce his wife.... (But not the wife her husband) ...

St. Mark's account additionally specifies the woman.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:30:23 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2014, 01:07:01 AM »
Yes.  I just read it as a man can divorce his wife.... (But not the wife her husband) ...

St. Mark's account additionally specifies the woman.

Not with permission.  His account only states:
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

From what I read it is talking not in permission for wife to put her husband away, but *if she does*.

Again in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Here all I read is that we do NOT put away a wife or husband - period.

In St. Matthew's book, it records the account of Jesus saying"except in fornication" but only speaks of the wife being put away in this situation.

Not calling anything wrong or right here.  It just seems that the only excuse for divorce would be for female fornication.  :-\
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2014, 01:12:10 AM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.
Just to add to this correct post: z'na is the semitic vorlage of porneia, meaning, as stated here, immoral sexual relationships in general.

Okay, thank you.

It may just be me in the American culture/language (especially southern) but fornication is mostly understood here for "sex without marriage" more so than "adultery".   I've never heard that a woman fornicated against her husband here.   I've heard that a man committed adultery against his wife though.  Also "cheated" is more commonly used.  The religious say "adultery" in a marriage situation almost always - and I've heard of teenagers and college students who fornicate.

That's good to know on the root words and basis of understanding.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2014, 02:47:34 AM »
Yes.  I just read it as a man can divorce his wife.... (But not the wife her husband) ...

St. Mark's account additionally specifies the woman.

Not with permission.  His account only states:
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

From what I read it is talking not in permission for wife to put her husband away, but *if she does*.

Again in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Here all I read is that we do NOT put away a wife or husband - period.

In St. Matthew's book, it records the account of Jesus saying"except in fornication" but only speaks of the wife being put away in this situation.

Not calling anything wrong or right here.  It just seems that the only excuse for divorce would be for female fornication.  :-\

St. Mark is making clear that the teaching (whatever you hold that to be) was applied equally to a wife as to a husband. Your post was trying to make a difference between the sexes.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,184
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2014, 02:49:16 AM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.
Just to add to this correct post: z'na is the semitic vorlage of porneia, meaning, as stated here, immoral sexual relationships in general.

Okay, thank you.

It may just be me in the American culture/language (especially southern) but fornication is mostly understood here for "sex without marriage" more so than "adultery".   I've never heard that a woman fornicated against her husband here.   I've heard that a man committed adultery against his wife though.  Also "cheated" is more commonly used.  The religious say "adultery" in a marriage situation almost always - and I've heard of teenagers and college students who fornicate.

That's good to know on the root words and basis of understanding.

Popular religious idiom in America is as hopelessly confused as popular religious belief. We need the Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Chiere

  • Reserve Grand Champion
  • Penalty Box
  • High Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 712
  • Lugia stares deep into the depths of your soul
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Indianapolis
Re: Greek interpretation - "Fornication" used in Matthew 19 - Discussion
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2014, 09:58:01 AM »
Yesh,

First, the definition of fornication is sex between to individuals not married to each other.  If one or both are married to other people one or both have committed adultery in addition to fornication.  Porneia in Scripture is used as a blanket term for fornication, adultery, incest, sex with prostitues, homosexual sex, and beastiality.  Moicheia refers to adultery alone. 

The Greek word in Matthew is porneia, that is fornication, i.e sexual immorality.  Interestingly, the Latin Canonical tradition insists porneia in this passage only refers to marriage within the forbidden degree, first cousins.  How they justify this in the face of the evidence I cannot explain.  Adultery alone does not qualify for an annulment.  On the other hand, Eastern Canonical tradition has allowed divorce for adultery as well as marriage within the forbidden degree.
Just to add to this correct post: z'na is the semitic vorlage of porneia, meaning, as stated here, immoral sexual relationships in general.

Okay, thank you.

It may just be me in the American culture/language (especially southern) but fornication is mostly understood here for "sex without marriage" more so than "adultery".   I've never heard that a woman fornicated against her husband here.   I've heard that a man committed adultery against his wife though.  Also "cheated" is more commonly used.  The religious say "adultery" in a marriage situation almost always - and I've heard of teenagers and college students who fornicate.

That's good to know on the root words and basis of understanding.

Popular religious idiom in America is as hopelessly confused as popular religious belief. We need the Church.

+1

(Orthodox Church, not Roman Catholic.)

To God Be the Glory!