Author Topic: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope  (Read 40859 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2014, 03:50:59 AM »
You're sort of arguing two directions there, aren't you? Starting by saying writings and not persons ought to be accursed, then saying Origen's writings were of use to the Fathers (and so his person and not his writings should be accursed?) ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2014, 03:55:37 AM »
You're sort of arguing two directions there, aren't you? Starting by saying writings and not persons ought to be accursed, then saying Origen's writings were of use to the Fathers (and so his person and not his writings should be accursed?) ...
I'm not saying his person should be accursed because I have no idea what that actually means in this context.

Origen wrote some good things and he wrote some heretical things. Intuitively, it seems like anathematizing the man denies that- along with whatever it might be saying about the state of his soul.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #92 on: December 31, 2014, 04:02:14 AM »
Anathematization of a man after his death I'm not sure the meaning of, but anathemitization of a living teacher seems useful or necessary to me. Imposing complete distance between someone and the Church is just a reflection of a truth, sometimes, it seems to me. Now, if we really wanted to spice up the discussion, we could include St. Paul's statement about someone anathema -- that he was turning him over to the Evil One to be tormented in body (my paraphrase) and learn to repent.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #93 on: December 31, 2014, 04:05:57 AM »
Anathematization of a man after his death I'm not sure the meaning of, but anathemitization of a living teacher seems useful or necessary to me. Imposing complete distance between someone and the Church is just a reflection of a truth, sometimes, it seems to me. Now, if we really wanted to spice up the discussion, we could include St. Paul's statement about someone anathema -- that he was turning him over to the Evil One to be tormented in body (my paraphrase) and learn to repent.
Yeah, you're right. That makes sense.

I should have been more clear. It is posthumous anathamatization that I don't get.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline emanresu

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2014, 08:56:13 AM »
I have not gotten a satisfactory answer to the puzzle of how someone is supposed to know if a statement by the Pope is infallible or not. Most Catholics I know have different numbers and different ideas of which statements were and were not infallible.  What good is infallibility if no one knows when you are being infallible?

There are typically two ways in which a pope can teach infallibly, according to Rome:

1) A solemn pronouncement on a matter of Faith and Morals such as the dogma of the Assumption in 1950:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

You'll note that the definition is usually preceded by a lengthy review of the history of the dogma and usually ends with the solemn: "We Define, We Profess, etc..."

2) If a pope issues an encyclical which supports or reinforces a long held belief of the Church, that teaching is usually considered to be infallible. An example of this would probably be Pope Paul VI issuing Humanae Vitae condeming artificial birth control. Prior to this you had the general consensus of the Church condemning the practice as well as a prior encyclical by Pope Pius XI, Castii Connubii, written in 1930 condemning the practice.

So there really isn't any neat list available detailing all infallible teachings. The above should be used as a guideline.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 08:57:05 AM by emanresu »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2014, 09:52:00 AM »
Anathematization of a man after his death I'm not sure the meaning of, but anathemitization of a living teacher seems useful or necessary to me. Imposing complete distance between someone and the Church is just a reflection of a truth, sometimes, it seems to me. Now, if we really wanted to spice up the discussion, we could include St. Paul's statement about someone anathema -- that he was turning him over to the Evil One to be tormented in body (my paraphrase) and learn to repent.
Yeah, you're right. That makes sense.

I should have been more clear. It is posthumous anathamatization that I don't get.
It is my understanding that there is no such thing as a posthumous anathamatization of a man, rather, the teachings are anathamatized.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2014, 01:38:08 PM »
The Second Council specifically anathematizes (a long dead) Origen, "as well as" his works. (In the West, the practice was quite common, along with posthumous torture and so on, but I'll admit that's another subject.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2014, 01:40:56 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #98 on: December 31, 2014, 06:55:13 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #99 on: December 31, 2014, 07:00:17 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #100 on: December 31, 2014, 07:29:02 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).
Huh? Nestorius was only condemned at the Third Council and Eutyches at the Fourth.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #101 on: December 31, 2014, 07:39:28 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).
Huh? Nestorius was only condemned at the Third Council and Eutyches at the Fourth.

Thanks! It's a mis-citation in the OrthodoxWiki.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #102 on: December 31, 2014, 07:42:27 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).
Huh? Nestorius was only condemned at the Third Council and Eutyches at the Fourth.

Thanks! It's a mis-citation in the OrthodoxWiki.
Ah, ok!
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #103 on: December 31, 2014, 08:06:14 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).

The Second Council of Constantinople is the Fifth a Ecumenical Council.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #104 on: December 31, 2014, 08:20:39 PM »
Thanks; that's it.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #105 on: December 31, 2014, 08:48:08 PM »
Come to think of it, I may be wrong about that. Here's the quote: "If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books ..." -- So if any of these chaps were alive (I assume some were), then the late Origen (and any other departed) may have been included in the anathema of persons more as a matter of grammar than of individual intent.
None of those were alive at the time of the 5th Council, or if Nestorius was he was on his death bed.

You're right, I was looking them up and they'd been dead for some time. However, the quote is not from the Fifth but from the Second Council (Eleventh Canon).

The Second Council of Constantinople is the Fifth a Ecumenical Council.
Oh. I thought he meant Second Ecumenical Council, period. As in Constantinople I.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #106 on: December 31, 2014, 08:50:52 PM »
Yeah, no, it's entirely my fault.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #107 on: January 01, 2015, 03:51:26 AM »
Yeah, no, it's entirely my fault.
So do we anathematize you?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #108 on: January 01, 2015, 11:49:54 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #109 on: January 01, 2015, 12:53:10 PM »
Yeah, no, it's entirely my fault.
So do we anathematize you?

Been there, done that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #110 on: January 02, 2015, 10:15:42 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope.
LOL. Can you show us by what authority and what canon how said "formal  heretic" pope would be deposed?
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2015, 07:37:25 AM »
Isa read the testimony of the doctors of the church on this issue. Its all theoretical as such a thing hasn't happened. Bit the doctors pretty much agree on the issue
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2015, 07:51:09 AM »
It might be helpful at this juncture to ask, as silly as it might sound, what it would take for authority in Orthodoxy to completely collapse.

If every Orthodox bishop on the planet were to simultaneously die in a plane crash would the Apostolic Succession continue in the Presbyters? What if every Presbyter died at the same time as the bishops?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 07:51:29 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2015, 08:23:00 AM »
It might be helpful at this juncture to ask, as silly as it might sound, what it would take for authority in Orthodoxy to completely collapse.

If every Orthodox bishop on the planet were to simultaneously die in a plane crash would the Apostolic Succession continue in the Presbyters? What if every Presbyter died at the same time as the bishops?

That sounds similar to this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,61702.0.html

The bolded statement is worth asking, but your hypothetical is not.



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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2015, 08:27:38 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2015, 08:28:59 AM »
It might be helpful at this juncture to ask, as silly as it might sound, what it would take for authority in Orthodoxy to completely collapse.

If every Orthodox bishop on the planet were to simultaneously die in a plane crash would the Apostolic Succession continue in the Presbyters? What if every Presbyter died at the same time as the bishops?

lol The One World Government would have to found an assassin's order to get rid of all of the evil Bishops.
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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2015, 08:45:30 AM »
Isa read the testimony of the doctors of the church on this issue. Its all theoretical as such a thing hasn't happened. Bit the doctors pretty much agree on the issue

Please quote said "doctors" and try to be specific.

As for it never happening, I'd say that Francis is coming pretty darn close.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2015, 12:12:00 AM »
Isa read the testimony of the doctors of the church on this issue. Its all theoretical as such a thing hasn't happened. Bit the doctors pretty much agree on the issue
yes, all the Orthodox ones and even quite a few of the Ultramontanist ones testify that a heretical bishop of Old Rome is deposed like any other heretical bishop.

Or should be-quite a few, starting with Pope Benedictus VIII, for instance, had a king with an army propping them up on their throne.
And yet Pope John XXIII (the real one, that is, crowned in ) was not the only one deposed.

Pope Eugene IV, the one at the robber council of Florence, was deposed by the Council of Basel on June 25, 1439, for instance.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2015, 04:37:29 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2015, 04:55:54 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world. Especially considering how South Africa was under an apartheid state instituted by the West.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2015, 05:04:42 AM »
Isa read the testimony of the doctors of the church on this issue. Its all theoretical as such a thing hasn't happened. Bit the doctors pretty much agree on the issue

Please quote said "doctors" and try to be specific.

As for it never happening, I'd say that Francis is coming pretty darn close.

How so?

Francis is pretty orthodox in his beliefs even on marriage if you look at his time as archbishop of Buenos Aires. He's just not as good with his words as Pope Benedict was nor as hardcore, I can admit that.

There are numerous catholic theologians who deal with this but I will give three : St Robert Bellarmine, St Alphonsus Liguori  and Francisco De Suarez

Among theologians there are two opinions on the matter that are 98% the same but just differ as to when and how a heretical Pope loses his office, but both opinions agree that a decree of guilt must be rendered by the proper authorities, or by the guilty party himself, in order for the Pope to be considered no longer Pope.

Further Fr. Ballerini added on how the manifest heretic is to be treated as per St Paul :

Quote
“For the person who, admonished once or twice, does not repent, but continues pertinacious in an opinion contrary to a manifest or public dogma - not being able, on account of this public pertinacity to be excused, by any means, of heresy properly so called, which requires pertinacity - this person declares himself openly a heretic. He reveals that by his own will he has turned away from the Catholic Faith and the Church, in such form that now no declaration or sentence of any one whatsoever is necessary to cut him from the body of the Church. (…) Therefore the Pontiff who after such a solemn and public warning by the Cardinals, by the Roman Clergy or even by the Synod, maintained himself hardened in heresy and openly turned himself away from the Church, would have to be avoided, according to the precept of Saint Paul. So that he might not cause damage to the rest, he would have to have his heresy and contumacy publicly proclaimed, so that all might be able to be equally on guard in relation to him. Thus, the sentence which he had pronounced against himself would be made known to all the Church, making clear that by his own will be had turned away and separated himself from the body of the Church, and that in a certain way he had abdicated the Pontificate, which no one holds or can hold if he does not belong to the Church”.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2015, 05:07:24 AM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world. Especially considering how South Africa was under an apartheid state instituted by the West.

Because the way religion was brought to Africa was in many cases not forced upon the natives. South Africa was like this by and large. Racism and apartheid was forced upon us but the Christian faith, we were evangelised and the people accepted. We aren't so touchy that we exclude everything that white people brought because of their past actions. Not everything about them and what they brough was seen as bad.

There are many great stories of catholic missionaries and methodist ones too who were exemplary men. Further the Christian churches were openly against apartheid and aided the fight against racism during apartheid. We understood that what Christianity taught was for us and what apartheid and racial segregation taught was against us and Christianity.

The only church that  was  for apartheid was , not surprisingly, the Dutch reformed church. ::)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:14:44 AM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2015, 02:13:12 PM »
Among theologians there are two opinions on the matter that are 98% the same but just differ as to when and how a heretical Pope loses his office, but both opinions agree that a decree of guilt must be rendered by the proper authorities, or by the guilty party himself, in order for the Pope to be considered no longer Pope.

Here we go again...

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2015, 06:56:00 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world.
Because Orthodox Empires never did anything bad ::)
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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2015, 07:03:10 PM »
But Wandile, what is the "proper authority" that can bring a grievance against the Supreme Pontiff? I thought the Pope was supposed to be judged by no man.

I can understand the idea that God would strike him dead. But a sitting heresy-propagating Pope would seem to be an intractable problem given the Vatican idea of Papal Supremacy.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2015, 07:08:05 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world. Especially considering how South Africa was under an apartheid state instituted by the West.

Because the way religion was brought to Africa was in many cases not forced upon the natives. South Africa was like this by and large. Racism and apartheid was forced upon us but the Christian faith, we were evangelised and the people accepted. We aren't so touchy that we exclude everything that white people brought because of their past actions. Not everything about them and what they brough was seen as bad.

There are many great stories of catholic missionaries and methodist ones too who were exemplary men. Further the Christian churches were openly against apartheid and aided the fight against racism during apartheid. We understood that what Christianity taught was for us and what apartheid and racial segregation taught was against us and Christianity.

The only church that  was  for apartheid was , not surprisingly, the Dutch reformed church. ::)

Really? You need to read some historical documents from that period.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2015, 07:10:19 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world.
Because Orthodox Empires never did anything bad ::)

Of course they did. But the Protestant and Catholic world continues to commit those crimes. (This, from my anti-imperialist leftism,) The 10th century is long gone. For the past 8 centuries Catholic and Protestant empires have been committing atrocities in the name of Christ.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 07:10:51 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2015, 09:14:04 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world. Especially considering how South Africa was under an apartheid state instituted by the West.

Because the way religion was brought to Africa was in many cases not forced upon the natives. South Africa was like this by and large. Racism and apartheid was forced upon us but the Christian faith, we were evangelised and the people accepted. We aren't so touchy that we exclude everything that white people brought because of their past actions. Not everything about them and what they brough was seen as bad.

There are many great stories of catholic missionaries and methodist ones too who were exemplary men. Further the Christian churches were openly against apartheid and aided the fight against racism during apartheid. We understood that what Christianity taught was for us and what apartheid and racial segregation taught was against us and Christianity.

The only church that  was  for apartheid was , not surprisingly, the Dutch reformed church. ::)

Really? You need to read some historical documents from that period.

Tell me about the history of my own country which I've studied for years on end in school and outside of it ::). Nevermind the fact that I actually live here.

Not everything happened the same way and I'm here telling you now... Most of the time in South Africa specifically and Africa in general it didn't happen the way you think. Study the history of Catholicism in Lesotho for starters and then study the history of segregation in South Africa.

Lastly South Africa wasn't colonised by a catholic nation. It was the English (Anglicans) and the Dutch (Protestants)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:24:50 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2015, 09:17:53 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world.
Because Orthodox Empires never did anything bad ::)

Of course they did. But the Protestant and Catholic world continues to commit those crimes. (This, from my anti-imperialist leftism,) The 10th century is long gone. For the past 8 centuries Catholic and Protestant empires have been committing atrocities in the name of Christ.

So I must be orthodox because you guys were better bad people?

Secondly of heard of French, German, English and Belgian etc colonies but never have I heard of  "Catholic Church" , "Anglican Church" or even a "Dutch Reformed" colony. Religions didn't colonise people... People colonised people.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:21:07 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2015, 09:27:26 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world.
Because Orthodox Empires never did anything bad ::)

Of course they did. But the Protestant and Catholic world continues to commit those crimes. (This, from my anti-imperialist leftism,) The 10th century is long gone. For the past 8 centuries Catholic and Protestant empires have been committing atrocities in the name of Christ.

So I must be orthodox because you guys were better bad people?

Secondly of heard of French, German, English and Belgian etc colonies but never have I heard of  "Catholic Church" , "Anglican Church" or even a "Dutch Reformed" colony. Religions didn't colonise people... People colonised people.

Religion inspired the colonization. Anyway, I'm Protestant. I just think history matters, we've had this discussion before.
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Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2015, 09:31:39 PM »
But Wandile, what is the "proper authority" that can bring a grievance against the Supreme Pontiff? I thought the Pope was supposed to be judged by no man.

You are right and the doctors and theologians acknowledge this point. What they are saying is the gospel message that anyone who rejects Christ is judged as by his actions he condemned himself. The authorities are the bishops. They correct the pope who has erred by denying a de fide doctrine. When he refuses correction he has shown himself resolute In denial of the faith and thus he is  already judged as by his actions he condemns himself (Ceases to be a catholic, a christian, a bishop). The bishops or the cardinals announce the heretic to already have been judged.  

Understand that this all relates to formal heresy, not material heresy.

Quote
I can understand the idea that God would strike him dead. But a sitting heresy-propagating Pope would seem to be an intractable problem given the Vatican idea of Papal Supremacy.

Explained above :)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:38:06 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Wandile

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2015, 09:33:04 PM »
Just to clarify Wandile

What would happen if a pope, say Francis of Rome, would come out and say that, for example, the the ordination of women to the clergy should begin immediately?


(while im here, of pure curiosity and unrelated to the thread, which of the 11 offical languages do you speak?)


Then he denies a de fide article and thus is a heretic. He will obviously be corrected by his brother bishops and if he refuses such, he will evidently be a manifest formal heretic. Thereby deposing himself as a bon-catholic cannot be a pope. There would be a new conclave to elect a new pope, and then they will probably hold a council or  the new pope will judge the heretical Francis and have him declared a a formal heretic.
That's the theory of many fathers of how a heretical pope will be dealt with. Ofcourse it has to be admitted that this will result in a huge schism.

IsiZulu and English

IsiZulu? So... Western imperialism... didn't do anything for you then?

I guess so. Most black people speak their native language (Zulu,xhosa,sotho,pedi,Venda etc) and then speak English or Afrikaans as a second language.

What I'm getting at is how someone can be a Protestant or a Catholic and know about the crimes that their 17th century imperial agents committed around the world.
Because Orthodox Empires never did anything bad ::)

Of course they did. But the Protestant and Catholic world continues to commit those crimes. (This, from my anti-imperialist leftism,) The 10th century is long gone. For the past 8 centuries Catholic and Protestant empires have been committing atrocities in the name of Christ.

So I must be orthodox because you guys were better bad people?

Secondly of heard of French, German, English and Belgian etc colonies but never have I heard of  "Catholic Church" , "Anglican Church" or even a "Dutch Reformed" colony. Religions didn't colonise people... People colonised people.

Religion inspired the colonization. Anyway, I'm Protestant. I just think history matters, we've had this discussion before.

No politics encouraged colonisation. Sometimes dressed up in the name of religion to make it seem more noble but it was politics, plain and simple. That's history.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Ebor

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2015, 09:40:21 PM »
I agree with Wandile.  It was politics and acquiring sources of materials that were useful/wanted such as spices, woods, rubber, metals, cloth and fibers, plants, foodstuffs and so forth as well as land. Locations for getting food and water during long voyages was another reason.  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:41:34 PM by Ebor »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2015, 09:59:24 PM »
If by politics you mean "demonic greed," then I'm on board as well.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Remnant and Deposing a Pope
« Reply #134 on: January 04, 2015, 10:36:34 PM »
I agree with Wandile.  It was politics and acquiring sources of materials that were useful/wanted such as spices, woods, rubber, metals, cloth and fibers, plants, foodstuffs and so forth as well as land. Locations for getting food and water during long voyages was another reason. 

They certainly dressed it up as a global missionary effort to make the world submit to St. Peter. The Protestants didn't do that, to their credit they were just looking for a place to express their religion in peace. At least in the American situation, where the Radical Reformation Churches were not protected by the Treaty of Westphalia.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:39:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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