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Author Topic: A Few Questions Concerning the Orthodox Faith  (Read 2119 times) Average Rating: 0
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SeanMc
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« on: May 22, 2005, 05:34:47 PM »

1) It is the Roman Catholic position, ever since Thomas Aquinas, that the cross should be worshipped as we worship God, latria worship that is.

What is the Orthodox position on this? It doesn't seem right to me.

2) What is the Orthodox position on the canon of scripture? I've noticed that some Orthodox accept the entire Septuagint, orthers leave books like 4 Maccabees out.

3) Would it be wrong, to accept the local Third Council of Carthage and the Decree of Patriarch Damasus, among others, in determining the canon of scripture, especially since no ecumenical council has been held to deal with this matter?

4)What is the role of the Blessed Virgin in terms of salvation (vis a vis, mediatrix/co-redemptrix docrtine of the RCC)?

5)In looking at Catholicism worldwide, it seems that much syncretism has taken place (like mixing Voodoo ceremonies w/the Mass in Haiti or adapting Catholic doctrine to local beliefs). Does anything like this happen in Orthodoxy? (I hope not)

Well, I suppose that's enough questions.

Thanks.



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TruthSeeker
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2005, 07:18:25 PM »

Good questions.....

I highly doubt that the orthodox worship the cross or consider Mary a co-redeemer.

I have nothing against my catholic brothers and this is not a flame.... but if the orthodox worship the cross and consider Mary a co-redeemer then I am done truthseeking in orthodoxy.



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Donna Rose
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2005, 08:08:41 PM »

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latria worship that is

what is latria worship?

The Orthodox worship only God, in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We *venerate* the Precious and Life Giving Cross, along with the Gospel books and icons of the saints. Veneration, in my understanding, is an act that offers honor and respect to the thing or person being represented, with recognition that its (or his, or her) sanctity comes only from God. The theology of icons is a bit more complex, but on the simplest level veneration of them can be understood in the same light as veneration of the cross and the gospels. I hope that made sense, and I'm open to correction. Smiley
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SeanMc
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2005, 08:28:26 PM »

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what is latria worship?

The Orthodox worship only God, in the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We *venerate* the Precious and Life Giving Cross,

Originally, in English, worship and venerate meant the same thing. That why you read in the Bible how some patriarch worshipped the Pharoah.

In Catholic theology then, there are three types of worship. Latria, that which is due to God alone (ie., adoration). Hyperdulia, that which is given to the Virgin Mary. And Dulia, that which is given to the Saints. I suppose dulia is another word for veneration.
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Tikhon29605
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2005, 08:37:25 PM »

It is the Roman Catholic position, ever since Thomas Aquinas, that the cross should be worshipped as we worship God, latria worship that is.

Are you SURE you have this correct? This sounds like malicious Protestant propaganda against the Roman Catholic Church. They VENERATE the cross the same as we do, but they have enough sense to to worship it with the absolute adoration that is reserved for God alone.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2005, 08:38:36 PM »

but they have enough sense to to worship it with the absolute adoration that is reserved for God alone.

OOPS!  I meant to say "they have enough sense NOT to worship it with the absolute adoration that is due God alone."
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Donna Rose
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2005, 08:45:06 PM »

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In Catholic theology then, there are three types of worship. Latria, that which is due to God alone (ie., adoration). Hyperdulia, that which is given to the Virgin Mary. And Dulia, that which is given to the Saints. I suppose dulia is another word for veneration.

this is very interesting - particularly that the Virgin Mary gets her own word for how she is adored (i cannot wrap my mind or tongue around the idea of "worshipping" anything but the Holy Trinity). I think it is accurate to say that in the Orthodox Church the Theotokos and the saints all receive Dulia - the Theotokos just receives Dulia a LOT more often than most saints (i.e. she is commemorated by name countless times in every service). Grin
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SeanMc
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2005, 08:51:57 PM »

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Are you SURE you have this correct? This sounds like malicious Protestant propaganda against the Roman Catholic Church. They VENERATE the cross the same as we do, but they have enough sense to to worship it with the absolute adoration that is reserved for God alone.


This is what Aquinas says, perhaps I'm misunderstanding:

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Whether Christ's cross should be worshipped with the adoration of "latria"?

Objection 1. It would seem that Christ's cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of "latria." For no dutiful son honors that which dishonors his father, as the scourge with which he was scourged, or the gibbet on which he was hanged; rather does he abhor it. Now Christ underwent the most shameful death on the cross; according to Wis. 2:20: "Let us condemn Him to a most shameful death." Therefore we should not venerate the cross but rather we should abhor it.

Objection 2. Further, Christ's humanity is worshiped with the adoration of "latria," inasmuch as it is united to the Son of God in Person. But this cannot be said of the cross. Therefore Christ's cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of "latria."

Objection 3. Further, as Christ's cross was the instrument of His passion and death, so were also many other things, for instance, the nails, the crown, the lance; yet to these we do not show the worship of "latria." It seems, therefore, that Christ's cross should not be worshiped with the adoration of "latria."

On the contrary, We show the worship of "latria" to that in which we place our hope of salvation. But we place our hope in Christ's cross, for the Church sings:

    "Dear Cross, best hope o'er all beside,
    That cheers the solemn passion-tide:
    Give to the just increase of grace,
    Give to each contrite sinner peace."
    [Hymn Vexilla Regis: translation of Father Aylward, O.P.]

Therefore Christ's cross should be worshiped with the adoration of "latria."

I answer that, As stated above (3), honor or reverence is due to a rational creature only; while to an insensible creature, no honor or reverence is due save by reason of a rational nature. And this in two ways. First, inasmuch as it represents a rational nature: secondly, inasmuch as it is united to it in any way whatsoever. In the first way men are wont to venerate the king's image; in the second way, his robe. And both are venerated by men with the same veneration as they show to the king. If, therefore, we speak of the cross itself on which Christ was crucified, it is to be venerated by us in both ways--namely, in one way in so far as it represents to us the figure of Christ extended thereon; in the other way, from its contact with the limbs of Christ, and from its being saturated with His blood. Wherefore in each way it is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of "latria." And for this reason also we speak to the cross and pray to it, as to the Crucified Himself. But if we speak of the effigy of Christ's cross in any other material whatever--for instance, in stone or wood, silver or gold--thus we venerate the cross merely as Christ's image, which we worship with the adoration of "latria," as stated above (3).
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http://www.newadvent.org/summa/402504.htm
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SeanMc
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2005, 09:14:43 PM »

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prodromos
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2005, 02:07:34 AM »


Originally, in English, worship and venerate meant the same thing. That why you read in the Bible how some patriarch worshipped the Pharoah.

In Catholic theology then, there are three types of worship. Latria, that which is due to God alone (ie., adoration). Hyperdulia, that which is given to the Virgin Mary. And Dulia, that which is given to the Saints. I suppose dulia is another word for veneration.


I think the notes on the seventh ecumenical council in the medieval sourcebook are helpful

The Greek language has in this respect a great advantage over the Hebrew, the Latin and the English; it has a word which is a general word and is properly used of the affectionate regard and veneration shown to any person or thing, whether to the divine Creator or to any of his creatures, this word is proskunhsis; it has also another word which can properly be used to denote only the worship due to the most high, God, this word is latreia. When then the Council defined that the worship of "latria "was never to be given to any but God alone,

it cut off all possibility for idolatry, mariolatry, iconolatry, or any other "latry" except "theo-latry." If therefore any of these other "latries" exist or ever have existed, they exist or have existed not in accordance with, but in defiance of, the decree of the Second Council of Nice.

But unfortunately, as I have said, we have neither in Hebrew, Latin, nor English any word with this restricted meaning, and therefore when it became necessary to translate the Greek acts and the decree, great difficulty was experienced, and by the use of "adoro" as the equivalent of proskunew many were scandalized, thinking that it was divine adoration which they were to give to the sacred images, which they knew would be idolatry. The same trouble is found in rendering into English the acts and decrees; for while indeed properly speaking "worship" no more means necessarily divine worship in English than "adoratio" does in Latin (e.g. I. Chr. xxix. 20, "All the congregation bowed down their heads and worshipped the Lord and the King" [i.e. Solomon]; Luke xiv. 10, "Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee "), yet to the popular mind "the worship of images" is the equivalent of idolatry. In the following translations I have uniformly translated as follows and the reader from the English will know what the word is in the original.

Proskunw, to venerate; timaw, to honour; latreuw, to adore; aspaxomai to salute; douleuw, to serve; eikwn, an image.

The relative force of proskunhsis and latreia cannot better be set forth than by Archbishop Trench's illustration of two circles having the same centre, the larger including the less (New Testament Synonyms, sub vote Latreuw).

To make this matter still clearer I must ask the reader's attention to the use of the words abadh and shachah in the Hebrew; the one abadh, which finds, when used with reference to God or to false gods its equivalent in latreuw; the other shachah, which is represented by proskune. Now in the Old Testament no distinction in the Hebrew is drawn between these words when applied to creator or creature. The one denotes service primarily for hire; the other bowing down and kissing the hand to any in salutation. Both words are constantly used and sometimes refer to the Creator and sometimes to the creature--e.g., we read that Jacob served (abadh) Laban (Gen. xxix. 20); and that Joshua commanded the people not to serve the gods of their fathers but to serve (abadh) the Lord (Josh. xxiv. 14). And for the use of shachah the following may suffice: "And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers and bowed down their heads and worshipped (Hebrew, shachah; Greek, proskunew; Latin, adoro) the Lord and the King" (I. Chr. xxix. 20). But while it is true of the Hebrew of the Old Testament that there is no word which refers alone to Divine Worship this is not true of the Septuagint Greek nor of the Greek of the New Testament, for in both proskunew has always its general meaning, sometimes applying to the creature and sometimes to the Creator; but latreuw is used to denote divine worship alone, as St. Augustine pointed out long ago.

This distinction comes out very clearly in the inspired translation of the Hebrew found in Matthew iv. 10, "Thou shalt worship proskunhseis) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve latreuseis)." "Worship" was due indeed to God above all but not exclusively to him, but latria is to be given to "him only."
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ExOrienteLux
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2005, 03:24:33 PM »

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this is very interesting - particularly that the Virgin Mary gets her own word for how she is adored (i cannot wrap my mind or tongue around the idea of "worshipping" anything but the Holy Trinity). I think it is accurate to say that in the Orthodox Church the Theotokos and the saints all receive Dulia - the Theotokos just receives Dulia a LOT more often than most saints (i.e. she is commemorated by name countless times in every service).

Actually, those three terms (latreia, huperduleia, and duleia/proskunesis) are all used in Orthodox theology, and in the same ways: the Most Holy Trinity alone receives latreia, the Blessed Theotokos is adored with huperduleia, and the Saints, Icons, and Holy Things are given duleia.

XB!
-Philip.
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Donna Rose
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2005, 04:24:52 PM »

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Actually, those three terms (latreia, huperduleia, and duleia/proskunesis) are all used in Orthodox theology, and in the same ways: the Most Holy Trinity alone receives latreia, the Blessed Theotokos is adored with huperduleia, and the Saints, Icons, and Holy Things are given duleia.

did not know this. thank you for the correction.
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