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Author Topic: Orthodoxy in Europe  (Read 3619 times) Average Rating: 0
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cizinec
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« on: May 20, 2005, 01:01:42 PM »

The following is a statement about a speech by Sonja Biserko, the chairman of the Helsinki Committee for Human Rights in Serbia.  This issue sums what this organization and what I believe Europe in general wants for Serbia.

Quote
Biserko also criticised the role of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the society, describing it as a retrograde and nationalist institution with political ambitions.

You don’t have to take b-92’s reporters word for it. 

Take the following article pulled from the HCHRS website.

Quote
A special problem in that relation is the fact that the wars and the devastation they created are to a large degree attributable to the Church itself. But, the church has failed to face this responsibility and shows no signs of readiness to engage in self-examination or look into its own doings.

http://www.helsinki.org.yu/search_text.php?lang=en&idteksta=1310

I encourage everyone to read the entire article, no, the entire website of this organization to find evidence of their accusations.  You’ll end in a magic circle of argument without evidence.  Each allegation uses a previous allegation as proof until you finally arrive at the first allegation you were attempting to investigate.

In 2000, Ms. Biserko said, “Attitudes have changed in Montenegro in the last ten years and it is unlikely that the Serbian opposition can alter this reality by its 'democratic' promises. The authentic Montenegrin institutions which have meanwhile been established -- the Academy, the Church and the Writers' Association -- all play a very important part in shaping this new consciousness.”  She supports more dissection of Yugoslavia and “recognizes” the Macedonian Orthodox Church, as if she has the authority to do so.

From the recent rhetoric of this influential organization, I think you will soon find that the accused culprit of the wars in Yugoslavia was not nationalism, but the Serbian Orthodox Church, and even the Orthodox faith in general.

I can’t emphasize enough how much influence these groups have on our ability to legally practice Orthodoxy throughout the world.  Recently the HCHRS has opposed changes to Serbian law that protect priests from being persecuted on the basis of their homilies.  Another writer for this organization, Bojana Oprijan Ili-ç, writes, “However, he failed to explain what happens if a “most reverend” mounts a pulpit to preach or incite intolerance and ethnic hatred, or to comment political moves made by state authorities. We’ve witnessed scores of such cases over the past decade.”  (http://www.helsinki.org.yu/search_text.php?lang=en&idteksta=1325) Apparently the author is not accustomed to American-style freedom of speech.  Most European countries do not allow all forms of speech, but regulate it. Apparently Bojana Ilic wishes to have the state regulate what the Church can say.  Sound familiar?

I hope that everyone who reads this message will go to the Helsinki.org website and see what they say about Russian Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodoxy, etc.  “It bears stressing that the Greek state is perceived as "an ideal state," notably in the context of place and position of the Orthodox Church in that country.”  This is in the context of saying what is wrong with Serbia.
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2005, 01:20:53 PM »

"Biserko"- what an apt name!
What can I say? On reading this, it is clear to me that this woman is a stupid, upstart, ladder-climbing pseudo-diplomat with too much time on her hands.
Her arguments remind me of Swedish furnature in Ikea stores.......flimsy, cheap, comes apart easily, mass produced and looks like c**p.
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2005, 01:21:10 AM »

And only today, there is another blow to Sweden's credibility as a "human rights defender".

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Sweden found to have breached torture convention
The UN Committee on Torture has found that Sweden breached an international anti-torture accord when it deported a suspected Islamic militant to Egypt despite concerns he may face abuse there.
The Swedish Government says the allegations are "serious" and it would "study them carefully".
In December 2001, Sweden expelled Ahamed Hussein Mustafa Kamil Agiza.
The UN committee, which oversees respect for the International Convention against Torture, says the move went against rules that governments should stop people from being put at risk of torture.
It was acting on a complaint lodged in 2003 on behalf of Agiza, who is serving a prison sentence in Egypt.
"The committee considers at the outset that it was known, or should have been known, to (Sweden) at the time of the complainant's removal that Egypt resorted to consistent and widespread use of torture against detainees," the panel said in its ruling.
Swedish news agency TT quotes Barbro Holmberg, Minister for Migration, as saying: "These are serious criticisms, we will study them carefully to see how they can guide us in the future."
The decision is a blow to Sweden, which normally prides itself on a good human rights record.
Agiza and Egyptian human rights groups claimed he had been tortured regularly since he returned to his homeland.
Agiza, today aged 42, claimed asylum in Sweden in 2000.
- AFP
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1373889.htm

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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 03:28:59 AM »

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Her arguments remind me of Swedish furnature in Ikea stores.......flimsy, cheap, comes apart easily, mass produced and looks like c**p.

haha!  laugh
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 07:12:25 AM »

"Her arguments remind me of Swedish furnature in Ikea stores.......flimsy, cheap, comes apart easily, mass produced and looks like c**p.

Aint that the Bl**dy truth!
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2005, 02:04:52 PM »

I never remember the Helsinki watch wirtting something god about orthodoxy.
 They Helsinki watch is even writting bad things about greece.

I wonder if the ever will write somethng about human rights in Israel or Turekey ??
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ania
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2005, 01:31:24 PM »

Need to defend IKEA... For those of us who are poor, and don't like eating, sleeping, sitting on the floor, IKEA has served me quite nicely.  With the exception of our bar and reed organ, all my furnishings are IKEA, and I have a pretty spankin' apartment, cheep though it is.  :-D
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 03:36:12 PM »

Yes, I do get the feeling that I will be spending some time at ikea in Thessaloniki in the coming months.... you know a matress is nice to sleep on....perhaps a chair - I know I'm real extravagent.
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cizinec
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 03:53:52 PM »

The ICTY continue its attack on Orthodoxy.

They are trying to implicate the Orthodox church in a video showing a priest blessing soldiers who allegedly later film their murder of civilians.



1.  How was the priest to know what they were going to do in the future?
2.  Is this the same film as the one showing executions?  The prosecutors have been known to forget that footage comes from different sources.
3.  Are these troops the same ons shown on the film or different ones?
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2005, 03:57:46 PM »

C'mon, be fair! If the shoe were on the otehr foot... We would be doing the SAME thing if it was an Imam blessing a suicide bomber who walked into an Orthodox Church and blew himself up. Guilt by association. Why is it WRONG when they to do it?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 03:58:14 PM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 04:44:34 PM »

Quote
C'mon, be fair! If the shoe were on the otehr foot... We would be doing the SAME thing if it was an Imam blessing a suicide bomber who walked into an Orthodox Church and blew himself up. Guilt by association. Why is it WRONG when they to do it?

Uhh yea, it's an every day occurance you know with all those Orthodox Priest always blessing suicide bombers... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 05:11:44 PM »

C'mon, be fair! If the shoe were on the otehr foot... We would be doing the SAME thing if it was an Imam blessing a suicide bomber who walked into an Orthodox Church and blew himself up. Guilt by association. Why is it WRONG when they to do it?


Because a suicide bomber is completely different than an armed forces soldier by nature.  Suicide bombers intentionally target civillians EXCLUSIVELY.  Soldiers only do it by exceptions (lilke the above allegations).  Worlds apart.
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 06:09:41 PM »

I didn't SAY that the Imam would know that the person was going to go out and do a suicide bombing, just that we would use it just like the muslims will use this picture.
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 07:39:37 PM »

Funny that Swedes can talk about anything.

Did you ever ask yourselves what they did with their sick, ugly, retarded and non-sweede looking as well as poor before 1980-ties?




Anyway, these women will not be either the first ones or the last ones that attacked Orthodoxy... so, ladies... get a number and get in line...
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2005, 08:20:29 PM »



Notice the date stamp on this video still? According to ICTY's own report there is no date stamp on the next bit of footage showing the abuse.
"
Quote
The next batch of footage showed a group of about six men, hands bound behind their backs piled up in the back of a truck. An armed guard is seen kicking one of the bound men in the head and voices are heard mocking the helpless men as cry-babies (the verb kmeziti was used). No date stamp was visible on this portion of the tape. The bound men were then ordered off the back of the truck by men dressed in black fatigues, some wearing red berets and others in camouflage flak vests. A voice can be heard shouting in frustration that the battery was running low on the video recorder. The bound men were ordered to lie in a ditch by the side of the road and the lorry then drove off.  Perhaps in response to a plea to wait, a voice could be heard telling the bound men that "when you were killing Serbs you didn't wait." http://cij.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewReport&reportID=685&tribunalID=1

So, grab some unrelated pieces of footage, string it together, give it a catchy title which appeals to the unreflective public (e.g. "chilling video") and the kind of "politically correct" people who buy IKEA furnature will believe that it tells a story (present company excluded, ania!).

Emotionalism is a great propaganda tool, isn't it?

C'mon, be fair! If the shoe were on the otehr foot... We would be doing the SAME thing if it was an Imam blessing a suicide bomber who walked into an Orthodox Church and blew himself up. Guilt by association. Why is it WRONG when they to do it?
Priest blesses soldier dressed in black. Unidentified men dressed in black abuse a bound man- obviously the priest has condoned abuse hasn't he? I bet he even took part in it since he is also dressed in black...... Roll Eyes This kind of logic is followed by those who read "Illuminati" with their feet resting on their IKEA coffee table. [/snobbery]
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2005, 02:15:11 AM »

Was the local Orthodox Church in any way involved with the persecution of ethnic Albanians in Yugoslovia? I've wondered about that lately. Please forgive me if the question is unrelated to this discussion.
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2005, 02:22:31 AM »

NO!
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2005, 02:24:59 AM »

So was it just the corrupt government?
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2005, 02:57:44 AM »

Ok...

Kosovo.

Kosovo is southern-most part of Serbia. During early periods of Serbian history Kosovo and parts around it were Serbia. Kosovo is the nucleus of Serbian Land. This is where Serbs came and setlled in early VII century and onwards. Albanians and Serbs have always lived in this area together. Serbs were majority in Kosovo until early 1970es and they still lived with Albaniand in agreement and as good neighbours. In all of the time of the history Serb and Albanians have lived and struggled and died together. There is not one example of Albanians and Serbs warring in the history until late 1980es and onwards. There were disagreements but, those we political confrontation during WWII when some Albanians collaborated with Germans and Italians. But as a whole, Serbs, Monetengrians and Albanians have always lived as friends and more that that. All these peoples are proud and what we call -îasni - Honourable.

Now, during the period of 1950-1990 many Albanians are passing the border of Albania and SFRJ (Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia) in order to escape torture and oppression of Enver Hoxa (a communist leader similar to Stalin) who killed and tortured innocent people because he was an evil dictator. These Albanian Albanians are somewhat different batch of Albanians, not worse, just not used to Serbs as Kosovar Albanians were. Many Albanians in Albania are Orthodox. Even those who are moslem are Honourable people who will go out of their way to help you.

During this period of 1950-1990 when a huge ammount of Albanians settled in Kosovo, some are getting funny ideas that Kosovo should become Republic. At this time 1950-1974 Kosovo was a "Region with some autonomy" but not a republic. It was an internal communist organization that made Kosovo and Vojvodina (North of Serbia) this way in the first place, in order to break Serbia and make it more easy to manage during communist era. Tito was a croat after all.

In 1974 the new Yugoslav constitution was declared. Among new decisions, it was declared that Kosovo and Vojvodina will have greater autonomy (practicaly becoming republics) and that Bosnian Muslims will become "Constutive People" of the SFRJ (until then they were declaring themselves as serbs or croats). These decisions basically broke the spine of Yugoslavia; and made the war that will come 15 years later.

Kosovo Alabanians started asking for the republic more and more. Because of the political structure in Yugoslavia, in Kosovo Albanians have all the power. Serbs can not get jobs, they are being beaten and prosecuted. In period of 1974-1989 2.5 milion Serbs leave Kosovo. Making, first time in history, Albanians majority in Kosovo.

Enter Slobodan Milosevic.
The year is 1989.
He is a nationalistic socialist (National Socializm-if you check you history books you will find another movement that was National Socialist). He declares that now the time has come for Albanians to suffer. Instead of solving the problems the Kosovar way, he sends in Army and Police. Albanians are now prosecuted. During 1990-2000 Albanian people are constatly smashed. Apartheid is the word.

In 1999 this erupts in a full out war.

The rest is, as they say, history..


At no stage did the Orthodox Church talked about prosecution of Albanians or any other peoples in former Yugoslavia.
That is talked that they should be prosecuted.
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2005, 03:25:01 AM »

Thank you for the 411. That's good to know.
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2005, 03:26:29 AM »

What is 411?
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 03:37:10 AM »

"411" is an American slang for "information" because "411" is the number that you can dial on your telephone for information.

"In most of the United States and Canada, 4-1-1 has for decades been the telephone number for local directory assistance. In recent years, it has been used for long distance directory assistance in most areas in the United States. The traditional number is 1-area code-555-1212.
The 411 service is provided by the local telephone company or wireless provider. Premium services such as Infone supplement 411 with detailed searches and concierge services.
Since deregulation, the price of using 411 has increased to about $1.25 in the U.S., compared to $0.50 CDN in most of Canada. Many payphones still have the most basic form of local 411 free of charge, presumably because the customer will pay to call any numbers provided.
411 is also used as a slang term meaning "information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-1-1
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2005, 03:51:27 AM »

Well then thank you for 411 also.
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 03:56:48 AM »

Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2005, 08:37:08 AM »

Most suicide bomber squads are LED AND DIRECTED by Imams.  That's a far cry from blessing a couple of soldiers who may do something bad in the future - *against* your patriarch's directions, not with his blessing.
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2005, 01:45:00 PM »

"If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be always children of God and love one another. We should remember the words of St. Paul: "If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men."

-Patriarch Pavle of Serbia
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