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Offline Inquirer

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Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« on: November 05, 2014, 12:00:31 PM »
A splinter from this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,61999.new.html#new

Tony: we can argue till cock's crow over Revelation. I don't find your arguments convincing, and you don't find ours convincing. So I say leave it at that. The issue of the Church is much more important--if we are right about this, then you must admit that your personal interpretations cannot be authoritative. And if you are right, then we must leave our false churches that teach an antigospel.

We know that there is Apostolic Succession, because it happens directly in Acts 1: Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. Numerous other Bishops pop up in the New Testament, such as Timothy and Titus (cf. 1 Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5; Paul even tells Titus to "rebuke with all authority" in Titus 2:15). And we know that the Bishops of the 4th century are their successors because of the comprehensive histories of Eusebius of Caesarea, Irenaeus, and others, that trace the Apostolic lineage in the Sees of Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople. However, your argument is that they became un-Bishops because they were corrupt and bought their offices. I responded to that supposition in a previous post, where I said that throughout Scripture, we see that God only takes back the Offices he bestows on his chosen ones when He says so, NOT simply whenever they become corrupt.

In order for me to be convinced that I am wrong and you are right, you need to make solid arguments about these three points:

1. Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is obvious and easy to interpret, and is our primary or only authority? How do you square this point with 2 Pet 1:20, which seemingly forbids private interpretations?

2. What is "the Church" that Jesus mentions in Mt 16:18-19 and Paul mentions in 1 Tim 3:15? If it is not the visible hierarchy of the Catholic/Orthodox, then what is it? How does one obey the Church as Paul exhorts us, if it does not include some visible authority figure? If the Church that we Catholics/Orthodox belong to became corrupt and contrary to the Gospel around the 4th century, then does that not mean that the gates of hell have prevailed against it?

3. Where in Scripture does it say that Bishops lose their authority on account of some sin or another? How do you square that with Mt 23:2-3, where Jesus tells us that the Pharisees should be obeyed because they sit in the seat of authority, despite all the sins that Jesus enumerates immediately thereafter?
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2015, 08:12:04 AM »
Sorry I have taken so long. I started writing a response and just got overwhelmed. I decided to put this off for a little while and other priorities ended up making it a lot while.

I have notes from responding to the other stuff here, which I plan to write up and post in the future. But I thought it necessary to address your interpretation of 2Peter 1:20 first. I have done so in an article which I have posted on my website. Please see it: http://theloveofthetruth.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/32258645/the_roman_catholic_and_so-called_orthodox_perversion_of_2peter_1.20_exposed_and_refuted.docx

Tony
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 08:12:55 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2015, 08:56:42 AM »
We know that there is Apostolic Succession, because it happens directly in Acts 1: Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. Numerous other Bishops pop up in the New Testament, such as Timothy and Titus (cf. 1 Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5; Paul even tells Titus to "rebuke with all authority" in Titus 2:15). And we know that the Bishops of the 4th century are their successors because of the comprehensive histories of Eusebius of Caesarea, Irenaeus, and others, that trace the Apostolic lineage in the Sees of Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Yes Matthias was actually an APOSTLE not just an overseer over a certain congregation. Because Judas apostatized, they needed to fill the gap in order to complete their mission to go into all nations and preach the Good News. Acts actually gives us the criteria that one required to meet to be numbered with the Twelve.

[1:21] Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, [1:22] beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection.”—ASV2

After the Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them. That’s why those who they ordained in the Assemblies before they left us were called “OVERSEERS” NOT Apostles.

Tony
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 08:57:20 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2015, 08:59:39 AM »
1. Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is obvious and easy to interpret, and is our primary or only authority? How do you square this point with 2 Pet 1:20, which seemingly forbids private interpretations?

1. "[24:15] Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)."-- Matthew MKJV

The Word of God wants "whoever reads" it to understand it.

"[8:15] But those on the good ground are the ones who, in an honest and good heart, having heard the Word, keep [it] and bring forth fruit with patience."--Luke MKJV

"[13:23] But that sown on the good ground is this: he who hears the Word and understands; who also bears fruit and produces one truly a hundredfold; and one sixty; and one thirty."—Matthew MKJV

Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.

"[12:4] But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, to the end time. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."—Daniel LITV

"[12:4] “But you, Dani’ĕl, hide the words, and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall diligently search and knowledge shall increase.”"—Daniel ISR98

In the end time, which is now, if we are diligently searching, in this time of increased knowledge, we can understand the words of Daniel which were previously sealed. Actually the Book of Revelation which is based much on Daniel unseals them (Revelation 22:10). It actually makes sense those who have an honest and good heart would be running to and fro, diligently searching, when there is this benefit of increased knowledge in the last days, instead of being wicked lazy servants (Matthew 25:26), keeping the Lord's commandment to seek (Matthew 6:33; 7:7).

Even children can understand the Scriptures which can make them wise to salvation (2Timothy 3:15). Actually this is how one knows he has an honest and good heart when he humbles himself like a child, which is how we enter the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:4; Mark 10:15; Luke 18:17).

"[3:3] that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. [3:4] In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, [3:5] which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets."—Ephesians NIV

Paul told the Ephesians that he was writing to them in a way that when they read it they could understand. He wrote this to the whole Assembly, not just leaders.

With the exception of 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, all of Bible’s NT Scripture is written to the Christian in general, not the leaders: Romans 1:7; 1Corinthians 1:2 ; 2Corinthians 1:1 ; Galatians  1: 2 ; Ephesians 1:1 ; Philemon 1:1 ; Colossians 1:1-2; 1Thessalonians 1:1; 2Thessalonians 1:1 ; 1Peter 1:1; 2Peter 1:1; Revelation 1:4.

"[1:3] Blessed [is] the [one] reading, and those hearing the Words of this prophecy, and keeping the things having been written; for the time [is] near.
[...]
22:7  Behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed [is] the one keeping the Words of the prophecy of this Book.
"—Revelation LITV

Revelation, the Word of God, which is written to Christians in general says that one who reads it is blessed, and one who keeps what it says is blessed. How can someone be blessed in reading something they can't understand? And how can someone keep what is written therein if they cannot understand it? Remember Revelation itself is not a sealed book as we have seen.

There are some things in the Scriptures that are difficult to understand, which can be easily perverted to teach evil, as 2Peter 3:15-18 tells us. But we are not told that it is impossible for anyone to understand these things, just to be on our guard since we now know this ahead of time. Therefore if we keep ourselves honest and good in heart and diligently study we can even understand these things.

God is not bound by teachers (1John 2:27), although he certainly does use them. But if the whole world goes apostate he can still communicate his truth to those few who are faithful.

It seems to me quite pointless for God to have left us with the NT if we cannot understand it unless some special men explain it to us. Why not just leave us with completely oral tradition through this supposed “apostolic succession” if it’s so reliable? I'm quite sure God wrote these things so that even if the establishment went astray, those who are faithful could still have the living voice of the Apostles which are preserved for us to test everything and hold on to that which is good (1Thessalonians 5:21), and continue on fighting the good fight of faith.

"When the apostles and prophets approached their deaths they did not give successors to take their places. Instead, they left their inspired writings. Peter said, "Moreover I will endeavor that even after my death you may often have occasion to call these things to mind." (2 Pet. 1:15). This would have been an excellent opportunity for Peter to tell us that he was leaving a successor through which we could recall the things of Christ, if indeed that was the truth regarding it. However, he said "This, beloved, is now the second epistle that I am writing to you wherein I stir up your pure mind to remembrance, that you may be mindful of what I formerly preached of the words of the holy prophets and of your apostles, which are the precepts of the Lord and Savior." (2 Pet. 3:1-2). Thus, Peter plainly declared that the things of Christ would be recalled through his writings. The inspired writings, therefore, are the only infallible succession that we have from the apostles and prophets.

The apostle Paul also demonstrated this fact. He said, "For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come." (2 Tim. 4:6; Catholic Edition RSV). Again, this would have been a wonderful opportunity for an apostle to teach that unerring guidance was to be handed down through their successors. He was writing to the young man Timothy who had received his spiritual guidance from him. Surely, if successors were to be ordained, he would have mentioned it to him so that he would know where to obtain unerring guidance. Or, if perhaps he had made Timothy his successor, surely he would have instructed him regarding it in order that he and others would know about it. However, there is no hint whatsoever of successors as this apostle approaches death. On the contrary, he points Timothy, as well as all men, to the sacred writings which the inspired men left us:

"For from thy infancy thou hast known the Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instructing in justice; that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:15-17).
"--David J. Riggs

Tony
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2015, 09:12:47 AM »
3. Where in Scripture does it say that Bishops lose their authority on account of some sin or another? How do you square that with Mt 23:2-3, where Jesus tells us that the Pharisees should be obeyed because they sit in the seat of authority, despite all the sins that Jesus enumerates immediately thereafter?

3. Now Scripture is not the only authority for a believer, we should follow Assembly government, but when all authority goes south, even if it's just us alone, we "must obey God rather than men," (Acts 5:29) and, "come out from among them and be separate and touch not the unclean thing." (2Corinthians 6:17)

The Word of God is the primary authority as per Matthew 15 & Mark 7. Not traditions of men. Any tradition that nullifies the Word of God is not to be followed. “To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, [it is] because no light [is] in them.”-- Isaiah 8:20 The Scriptures contain the infallible Words of God. Can anything any man says be equal to greater than those words unless they are truly speaking by the Prophetic Spirit. The Words of the Prophetic Spirit are superior to everything. Everything must be tested by the Prophetic Spirit. The Spirit can speak through people today, because the NT says there can be prophets, and we are not to despise prophecy. But we must test all new prophecies against the former in Scripture to see if they add to or take away from the Word of God. If they contradict God’s Word, they are not God’s Word. It doesn’t matter how great of an authority that person is because Paul even said if he, the other fellow Apostles, an angel from heaven, or anyone, contradicted the Good Message which he had taught the Galatians; that they were to let him be anathema! (Galatians 1) That’s how serious this is! If Paul said that even of himself, the other Apostles, and angels, how much more does this not apply to any other church leadership that comes afterward?! Really THINK about that and let that settle in your mind, what the IMPLICATIONS of such a statement are! Paul surely did not see the stature of men as a full proof against apostasy, even himself, and the Apostles! He had his saints trust FOREMOST IN THE WORD OF GOD, “THE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS!” (Jude 1:3)

Scripture gives someone criteria for being a bishop. If they don’t meet it then they are disqualified from being one (Titus 1:5-9).

Clement spoke about the Church not rightly ousting their bishops for a good enough reason.

Chap. XLIV. — The Ordinances of the Apostles, That There Might Be No Contention Respecting the Priestly Office.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office103 of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions,104 that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them,105 or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate106 those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.107 Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that ye have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.


It stands to reason that Clement then believed there were reasons for which to do so would be justified. His whole contention about them doing these things to people who were blameless and carried out their duties correctly. If it were absolutely 100% wrong to do this, even when they were not blameless, and unrepentant, then Clement would have worded it differently and made his statement in a completely absolute way. He would have said it was unacceptable whatever, but he didn’t. And this would have been a good time for Clement to mention it if it was.

Yes Jesus said the Scribes and the Pharisees sat in Moses’ seat, teaching the Law of Moses. They were the government of THAT region during THAT time. We are told to obey the civil government (Romans 13; 1Peter 2:13-17) as long as it doesn’t cause us to disobey God (Examples: Exodus 1:8-2:3; Daniel and the three children’s civil disobedience to the forced idolatry of the state; Maccabees and Antiochus; Acts 5:29; Mark of the Beast in Revelation; Martyrdom of Polycarp 9 & 10). Which Peter himself said they would not do to these same people in defiance (Acts 5:29). Therefore one was to obey them and keep the Law of Moses and any other laws that didn’t contradict the Law of God. But Christ said not to follow after their ways because they said but did not do the Law of Moses because of their hypocritical traditions which were against the Law of Moses.

Tony
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2015, 09:22:57 AM »
However, your argument is that they became un-Bishops because they were corrupt and bought their offices. I responded to that supposition in a previous post, where I said that throughout Scripture, we see that God only takes back the Offices he bestows on his chosen ones when He says so, NOT simply whenever they become corrupt.

I would argue that God did just that when he broke the shackles of the Church on the lay people by waking people up to the truth and to expose and refute the Church, and to give us the Scriptures in our languages, and by taking away its political control by raising up armies against her.

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2015, 09:26:04 AM »
Your 2nd point might take me some time to respond to.

Tony
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony

I rather admire your audacity in calling the Body of Christ "the Mother of Whores." I forgive you on my own behalf only.

When do you think that the "Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state"? Surely it could not have been earlier than Saint Constantine the Great's Edict of Milan (A.D. 313)? 

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2015, 11:29:05 AM »

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony

I rather admire your audacity in calling the Body of Christ "the Mother of Whores." I forgive you on my own behalf only.

When do you think that the "Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state"? Surely it could not have been earlier than Saint Constantine the Great's Edict of Milan (A.D. 313)? 

If it really was the Assembly, the Body of Christ... Surely if the majority of those who had the name of the people of God apostatized and joined hands with the enemy, "Mother of Whores" would be a fitting title for such a group.

Of course even before this, earlier, we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more. It was said that a "Great Falling Away" would occur before the Anti-Christ stepped on the scene.

Tony
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Offline Nathanael

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2015, 11:30:35 AM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.

Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
We know that there is Apostolic Succession, because it happens directly in Acts 1: Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. Numerous other Bishops pop up in the New Testament, such as Timothy and Titus (cf. 1 Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5; Paul even tells Titus to "rebuke with all authority" in Titus 2:15). And we know that the Bishops of the 4th century are their successors because of the comprehensive histories of Eusebius of Caesarea, Irenaeus, and others, that trace the Apostolic lineage in the Sees of Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Yes Matthias was actually an APOSTLE not just an overseer over a certain congregation. Because Judas apostatized, they needed to fill the gap in order to complete their mission to go into all nations and preach the Good News. Acts actually gives us the criteria that one required to meet to be numbered with the Twelve.

[1:21] Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, [1:22] beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection.”—ASV2

After the Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them. That’s why those who they ordained in the Assemblies before they left us were called “OVERSEERS” NOT Apostles.

Tony

It is not quite that simple. First a matter of definitions

"The word "apostle" has two meanings, the broader meaning of a messenger and the narrow meaning of an early Christian apostle directly linked to Jesus. The more general meaning of the word is translated into Latin as 'missio', and from this word we get 'missionary.'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle

"A bishop (English derivation from the New Testament Greek ἐπίσκοπος, epískopos, "overseer", "guardian") is an ordained or consecrated member of the Christian clergy who is generally entrusted with a position of authority and oversight." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

So who are the early Christian apostles directly linked to Jesus and what became of them? We know of the twelve, so I will just talk about the 70 disciples  whom Jesus appointed himself as missionaries or apostles to go out two by two (Mark 10:1-24). They were:

Archaicus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17

Agabus. Reference to in Acts 11:28; 21:10

Amplias, appointed by St. Andrew as bishop of Lydda of Odyssopolis (Diospolis) in Judea. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:8.

Ananias, who baptized St. Paul. He was the bishop of Damascus. He became a martyr by being stoned in Eleutheropolis. Reference to in Acts 9:10-17; 22:12

Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia. Reference to in Romans 16:17

Apelles, bishop of Heraclea (in Trachis). Reference to in Romans 16:10

Apollos. He was a bishop of several places over time: Crete (though this is questioned), Corinth, Smyrna, and Caesarea. Reference to in Acts 18:24; 19:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12; 3:4-22; 4:6; 16:12, Titus 3:13

Aquila. He was martyred. Reference to in Acts 18:2, 18, 26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19; 2 Timothy 4:19

Archippus. Reference to in Colossians 4:17; Philemon 2

Aristarchus, bishop of Apamea in Syria. He was martyred under Nero.
“Aristarchus, whom Paul mentions several times, calling him a ‘fellow laborer,’ became bishop of Apamea in Syria.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 19:29; 20:4; 27:2; Colossians 4:10; Philemon 24

Aristobulus, bishop of Britain. “… the brother of the apostle Barnabas, preached the gospel in Great Britain and died peacefully there.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Romans 16:14

Artemas, bishop of Lystra in Lycia. Reference to in Titus 3:12

Aristarchus, bishop of Hyracania in Asia. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Barnabas. “A Jew of the Tribe of Levi, was born in Cyprus of wealthy parents. He is said to have studied under Gamaliel with Saul of Tarsus, who was to become Paul the apostle. Originally named Joseph, he was called Barnabas (Son of Consolation) by the apostles because he had a rare gift of comforting people’s hearts. He sought out Paul when everyone else was afraid of him, bringing him to the apostles. It was Barnabas whom the apostles first sent to Antioch with Paul. Their long association was broken only when Barnabas was determined to take his cousin Mark, whom Paul did not trust just then, on a missionary journey. The three were later reconciled. Many ancient accounts say Barnabas was the first to preach in Rome and in Milan, but he was martyred in Cyprus, then buried by Mark at the western gate of the city of Salamis.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 4:36; 9:27; 11-15; 1 Corinthians 9:6; Galatians 2:1,9,13; Colossians 4:10

Caesar, bishop of Dyrrhachium (in the Peloponnese of Greece)

Carpus, bishop of Berroia (Verria, in Macedonia. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:13

Clement, bishop in Sardis. Reference to in Philippians 4:3

Cephas, bishop of Iconium, Pamphyllia.

Cleopas, was with the Lord on the road to Emmaus. Reference to in Luke 24:18; John 19:25

Crescens, later bishop of Galatia. He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:10

Crispus, bishop of Aegina, Greece. Reference to in Acts 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:14

Epaphras. Reference to in Colossians 1:7; 4:12; Philemon 23

Epaphroditus, bishop of the Thracian city of Adriaca. Reference to in Philippians 2:25; 4:18

Epaenetus, bishop of Carthage. Reference to in Romans 16:5

Erastus. He served as a deacon and steward to the Church of Jerusalem. Later he served in Palestine. Reference to in Acts 19:22; Romans 16:23; 2 Timothy 4:20

Euodias(Evodius), first bishop of Antioch after St.Peter. He wrote several compositions. At the age of sixty-six, under the Emperor Nero, he was martyred. Reference to in Philippians 4:2

Fortunatus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17

Gaius, bishop of Ephesus. Reference to in Acts 19:29; 20:4; Romans 16:23; 1 Corinthians 1:14; 3 John 1

Hermas, bishop in Philipopoulis. He wrote The Shepherd of Hermas. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Hermes, bishop of Dalmatia. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Herodion, a relative of the Apostle Paul, bishop of Neoparthia. He was beheaded in Rome. Reference to in Romans 16:11

James, brother of the Lord (also called "the Less" or "the Just"). He was a (step-)brother to Jesus, by Jesus' father Joseph, through a previous marriage. James was the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Acts 12:17; 15:13; Epistle of James

Jason, bishop of Tarsus. Traveling with Sosipater to Corfu, the two were able, after an attempt made at their lives by the king of Corfu, to convert his majesty. Reference to in Acts 17:5-9

Justus, brother to the Lord and bishop of Eleutheropolis. He was the half-brother of Christ (as was Sts. James, Jude, and Simon) through Joseph's previous marriage to Salome. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 1:23; 18:7; Colossians 4:11

Linus, bishop of Rome. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:21

Lucius, bishop of Laodicea. Reference to in Acts 13:1; Romans 16:21

Luke the Evangelist. He is the author of the Gospel of Luke, and the founder of Iconography (Orthodox Icon-writing). Reference to in Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24

Mark the Evangelist (called John). He wrote the Gospel of Mark. He also founded the Church of Alexandria, serving as its first bishop. Reference to in Acts 12:12, 25; 15:37-39; Colossians 4:10; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24; 1 Peter 5:13
Mark

Narcissus, ordained by the Apostle Philip as bishop of Athens, Greece. Reference to in Romans 16:11

Nicanor, one of the original seven deacons. He was martyred on the same day as the Promartyr Stephen. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Olympas, beheaded with St. Peter under Nero. Reference to in Romans 16:15

Onesimus. Onesimus preached the Gospel in many cities. He was made bishop of Ephesus, and later bishop of Byzantium (Constantinople). He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in Colossians 4:9; Philemon 10
Onesiphorus, bishop of Colophon (Asia Minor), and later of Corinth. He died a martyr in Parium. Reference to in 2 Timothy 1:16; 4:19

Parmenas, one of the original seven deacons. He preached throughout Asia Minor, and later settled in Macedonia. He was a bishop of Soli. He died a martyr in Macedonia. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Patrobus, bishop of Neapolis (Naples). Reference to in Romans 16:14

Philemon. He, with his wife Apphia, and the apostle Archippus, were martyred by pagans during a pagan feast. Reference to in Philemon 1

Philip the Deacon (one of the original seven). He was born in Palestine, and later preached throughout its adjoining lands. In Acts, he converts a eunuch (an official) of Candace, queen of Ethiopia, to Christ. He was later made bishop by the apostles at Jerusalem, who also sent him to Asia Minor. Reference to in Acts 6; 8; 21:8

Philologus, ordained bishop of Sinope (near the Black sea) by the Apostle Andrew. Reference to in Romans 16:15

Phlegon, bishop of Marathon, in Thrace. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Prochorus, one of the original seven deacons. He was made bishop of Nicomedia by St. Peter. He was later banished with the Apostle John (John the Theologian) to the Island of Patmos. In Antioch, he died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Pudens (Pastorum). He was an esteemed member of the Roman Senate, then received Sts. Peter and Paul into his home, and was converted to Christ by them. He was martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Quadratus, bishop of Athens. He was author of the Apologia. He was stoned, but survived. Soon-after, he died of starvation in prison.

Quartus, bishop of Beirut. Reference to in Romans 16:23

Rufus, bishop of Thebes, Greece. Reference to in Mark 15:21; Romans 16:13

Silas (Silvanus), bishop of Corinth. Reference to in Acts 15:22-40; 16:19-40; 17:4-15; 18:5; 2 Corinthians 1:19; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Peter 5:12

Simeon, son of Cleopas. “Simeon, son of Cleopas (who was the brother of Joseph, the betrothed of the Virgin Mary), succeeded James as bishop of Jerusalem.” Orthodox Study Bible. He was martyred through torture and crucifixion, at the age of one-hundred. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3
Sosipater, ordained bishop of Iconium by the Apostle Paul, his relative. With St. Jason, he converted the king of Corfu. Reference to in Romans 16:21
Sosthenes. “… became bishop of Caesarea.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 1 Corinthians 1:1

Stachys, ordained by St. Andrew to be bishop of Byzantium. Reference to in Romans 16:9

Stephen the Promartyr and Archdeacon (one of the original seven deacons). Reference to in Acts 6:5-7:60; 8:2 (Acts 6:5-8:2); 11:19; 22:20

Tertius, bishop of Iconium (after Sosipater). He wrote down St. Paul's letter to the Romans. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:22

Thaddaeus. He was baptized by John the Baptist (John the Forerunner). He later preached, and founded a Church in Beirut. Reference to in Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18

Timon, one of the original seven deacons, and later bishop of Bostra (in Arabia). He was thrown into a furnace, but emerged unharmed. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Timothy. He accompanied St. Paul often, and both 1 and 2 Timothy are addressed to him. He was ordained bishop of Ephesus by St. Paul. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 16:1; 17:14, 15; 18:5; 19:22; 20:4; Romans 16:21; 1 and 2 Timothy

Titus. “Among the more prominent of the seventy was the apostle Titus, whom Paul called his brother and his son. Born in Crete, Titus was educated in Greek philosophy, but after reading the prophet Isaiah he began to doubt the value of all he had been taught. Hearing the news of the coming of Jesus Christ, he joined some others from Crete who were going to Jerusalem to see for themselves. After hearing Jesus speak and seeing His works, the young Titus joined those who followed Him. Baptized by the apostle Paul, he worked with and served the great apostle of the gentiles, traveling with him until Paul sent him to Crete, making him bishop of that city. It is said that Titus was in Rome at the time of the beheading of St. Paul and that he buried the body of his spiritual father before returning home. Back in Crete, he converted and baptized many people, governing the Church on that island until he entered into rest at the age of ninety-four.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 2 Corinthians 2:13; 7:6-14; 8:6-23; 12:18; Galatians 2:1-3; Epistle to Titus

Trophimus, disciple of St. Paul, and martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 20:4; 21:29; 2 Timothy 4:20

Tychicus. “… succeeded him (Sosthenes, as bishop) in that city (of Caesarea).” Orthodox Study Bible. He delivered St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Colossians. Reference to in Acts 20:4; Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 4:7; 2 Timothy 4:12; Titus 3:12

Urbanus, ordained by the Apostle Andrew as bishop of Macedonia. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:9

Zenas (called 'the lawyer'), bishop of Diospolis (Lydda), in Palestine. Reference to in Titus 3:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventy_disciples#The_first_list_and_other_lists

Please note that many of them later became deacons and bishops, while some did not. But, all of them were true apostles sent out by the Lord Himself. Given the first definition, that of a missionary, I would think that there are many others that the Lord has called over the centuries to do just that. You say "After the (Twelve) Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them." As I showed you above, you were wrong to restrict the function of missionary or apostle to the original twelve. You are also wrong to say that Christ Himself no longer called folks to become missionaries. What a slap in the face of so many good Christian men and women!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 11:37:58 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2015, 11:46:36 AM »

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony

I rather admire your audacity in calling the Body of Christ "the Mother of Whores." I forgive you on my own behalf only.

When do you think that the "Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state"? Surely it could not have been earlier than Saint Constantine the Great's Edict of Milan (A.D. 313)? 

If it really was the Assembly, the Body of Christ... Surely if the majority of those who had the name of the people of God apostatized and joined hands with the enemy, "Mother of Whores" would be a fitting title for such a group.

Of course even before this, earlier, we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more. It was said that a "Great Falling Away" would occur before the Anti-Christ stepped on the scene.

Tony

You have not answered my question: WHEN did His Body, the Church, apostatized and became the "Mother of Whores"? Also, there is no "of course" in your statement that even before the radical transformation of His Holy Church into the Mother of Whores, "we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more." I am aware of heresies in the centuries leading up the First Ecumenical Council in the Fourth Century, Arianism being the most troublesome, but the Body of Christ refuted them all. Tell me please also how the Church that got her act together in A.D. 325 by agreeing to the Nicene Creed, could be an apostate church. Or, perhaps the Church apostatized later? Tell us O enlightened one, when did that happen?

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2015, 11:53:50 AM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.



Nathanael,

Thanks for the input. You may very well be right. Christ did say the Way is narrow and few would find it (Matthew 7:14). And his statement in Luke 18:8 indicates that it will only be more so as time goes on and we get closer to the last of days. God has given us a solution for that problem. It's called repentance/a change of heart, which God has commanded all men everywhere to do.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2015, 12:05:27 PM »

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony

I rather admire your audacity in calling the Body of Christ "the Mother of Whores." I forgive you on my own behalf only.

When do you think that the "Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state"? Surely it could not have been earlier than Saint Constantine the Great's Edict of Milan (A.D. 313)? 

If it really was the Assembly, the Body of Christ... Surely if the majority of those who had the name of the people of God apostatized and joined hands with the enemy, "Mother of Whores" would be a fitting title for such a group.

Of course even before this, earlier, we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more. It was said that a "Great Falling Away" would occur before the Anti-Christ stepped on the scene.

Tony

You have not answered my question: WHEN did His Body, the Church, apostatized and became the "Mother of Whores"? Also, there is no "of course" in your statement that even before the radical transformation of His Holy Church into the Mother of Whores, "we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more." I am aware of heresies in the centuries leading up the First Ecumenical Council in the Fourth Century, Arianism being the most troublesome, but the Body of Christ refuted them all. Tell me please also how the Church that got her act together in A.D. 325 by agreeing to the Nicene Creed, could be an apostate church. Or, perhaps the Church apostatized later? Tell us O enlightened one, when did that happen?

Christ's Body never apostatized. A great number just apostatized from the Body, and because of strength in numbers made a claim to be Christ's Body and the remnant who were being silenced with banishment and death were called Beelzebub, a fitting title, for that is what they called their Lord too, and it is an honor to suffer with him.

Just because you have some doctrines right doesn't mean that you are of God. Just because someone agrees to the deity of the Messiah doesn't mean they are of God if they mix the Faith with the world.

Really I don't understand what about the Way being narrow which few find is so hard for you people understand. Yet you stand by your numbers.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2015, 12:50:45 PM »
Quote
Yet you stand by your numbers
No, we stand on history, and the teaching of everyone all the way back to the apostles and those they trained. You stand on your own. You are your own Pope.

PP
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2015, 01:32:36 PM »
Quote
Yet you stand by your numbers
No, we stand on history, and the teaching of everyone all the way back to the apostles and those they trained. You stand on your own. You are your own Pope.

PP

I'm sure you do. And I'm sure I am. My Pope/Father is in heaven thank you very much!

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2015, 01:50:49 PM »
Quote
Yet you stand by your numbers
No, we stand on history, and the teaching of everyone all the way back to the apostles and those they trained. You stand on your own. You are your own Pope.

PP

I'm sure you do. And I'm sure I am. My Pope/Father is in heaven thank you very much!
And the Church says the same thing about our Father. So who is correct?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2015, 02:22:53 PM »
Quote
Yet you stand by your numbers
No, we stand on history, and the teaching of everyone all the way back to the apostles and those they trained. You stand on your own. You are your own Pope.

PP

I'm sure you do. And I'm sure I am. My Pope/Father is in heaven thank you very much!
And the Church says the same thing about our Father. So who is correct?

"[8:42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [...] [14:15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. [...] [18:36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."--John KJV

"[2:21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"--1Peter KJV

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Papist

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2015, 02:38:10 PM »
So I'm guessing the pure of heart who correctly interpret the scriptures are those who agree with TheLoveOfTheTruth? Interesting...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 02:38:18 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2015, 03:09:17 PM »
So I'm guessing the pure of heart who correctly interpret the scriptures are those who agree with TheLoveOfTheTruth? Interesting...

And very, very sad. We see this fragmentation of personality so often today, no doubt deriving from the fragmentation of society that we also see. Pray for people like TLotT as they have suffering in their futures.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2015, 03:11:35 PM »
So I'm guessing the pure of heart who correctly interpret the scriptures are those who agree with TheLoveOfTheTruth? Interesting...

Thanks for commenting Papist!

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2015, 03:14:10 PM »
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2015, 03:16:20 PM »
So I'm guessing the pure of heart who correctly interpret the scriptures are those who agree with TheLoveOfTheTruth? Interesting...

And very, very sad. We see this fragmentation of personality so often today, no doubt deriving from the fragmentation of society that we also see. Pray for people like TLotT as they have suffering in their futures.

Porter, don't I know it! (1Thessalonians 3:4) Pray God gives me the strength to count it all joy.

Shalom,

Tony

"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2015, 03:19:31 PM »
So I'm guessing the pure of heart who correctly interpret the scriptures are those who agree with TheLoveOfTheTruth? Interesting...

And very, very sad. We see this fragmentation of personality so often today, no doubt deriving from the fragmentation of society that we also see. Pray for people like TLotT as they have suffering in their futures.

Porter, don't I know it! (1Thessalonians 3:4) Pray God gives me the strength to count it all joy.

Shalom,

Tony

No, I won't pray that, as I know what it involves -- a spiral of faux-martyrly hubris. I will pray instead that you be relieved of the burden of yourself and find brothers who will help bear it, and the rest of the years of your life peaceful and quiet ones.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Papist

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2015, 03:22:36 PM »
a spiral of faux-martyrly hubris.

It's an epidemic.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2015, 03:23:35 PM »
Quote from: Porter ODoran
the rest of the years of your life peaceful and quiet ones.

It'd be nice but things are heating up.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2015, 03:34:07 PM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.



Nathanael,

Thanks for the input. You may very well be right. Christ did say the Way is narrow and few would find it (Matthew 7:14). And his statement in Luke 18:8 indicates that it will only be more so as time goes on and we get closer to the last of days. God has given us a solution for that problem. It's called repentance/a change of heart, which God has commanded all men everywhere to do.

Tony
If the Way is narrow and few will find it, how do you know that you have found it and are not deceived like the rest of us? All Christianity calls for repentance and a change of heart. Surely that cannot be the only qualification or it isn't a very narrow and hidden Way.
God bless!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2015, 03:34:51 PM »

Now since the so-called Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state, she actually left the true remnant Assembly of God who was willing to obey God rather than men and keep herself pure, chaste, unspotted from the world, holding fast the faithful Word, and thus became the Mother of Whores prophesied of in the Book of Revelation. Therefore since she was the civil worldly government of the regions that she controlled she was to be obeyed in everything that did not cause one to disobey God and his Word. And therefore a good Christian soldier who has no business of entangling himself in the affairs of this world is not to try and stay in such a corrupt system and play politics and reform it. The directive of God is merely to "come out of her my people that you are not partakers of her sins and plagues." It's really as simple as that.

Tony

I rather admire your audacity in calling the Body of Christ "the Mother of Whores." I forgive you on my own behalf only.

When do you think that the "Church prostituted itself by marrying itself to the pagan Roman state"? Surely it could not have been earlier than Saint Constantine the Great's Edict of Milan (A.D. 313)?  

If it really was the Assembly, the Body of Christ... Surely if the majority of those who had the name of the people of God apostatized and joined hands with the enemy, "Mother of Whores" would be a fitting title for such a group.

Of course even before this, earlier, we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more. It was said that a "Great Falling Away" would occur before the Anti-Christ stepped on the scene.

Tony

You have not answered my question: WHEN did His Body, the Church, apostatized and became the "Mother of Whores"? Also, there is no "of course" in your statement that even before the radical transformation of His Holy Church into the Mother of Whores, "we can see the seeds of apostasy coming in more and more." I am aware of heresies in the centuries leading up the First Ecumenical Council in the Fourth Century, Arianism being the most troublesome, but the Body of Christ refuted them all. Tell me please also how the Church that got her act together in A.D. 325 by agreeing to the Nicene Creed, could be an apostate church. Or, perhaps the Church apostatized later? Tell us O enlightened one, when did that happen?

Christ's Body never apostatized. A great number just apostatized from the Body, and because of strength in numbers made a claim to be Christ's Body and the remnant who were being silenced with banishment and death were called Beelzebub, a fitting title, for that is what they called their Lord too, and it is an honor to suffer with him.

Just because you have some doctrines right doesn't mean that you are of God. Just because someone agrees to the deity of the Messiah doesn't mean they are of God if they mix the Faith with the world.

Really I don't understand what about the Way being narrow which few find is so hard for you people understand. Yet you stand by your numbers.

Tony

Now, we are starting to see a glimmer of light in this nightmarish history that you  have produced. At this time, I am going to shut up so that you can read the following three books by Reformed, Evangelical and Protestant theologians. We will resume after you have read them, OKay?

Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom by Peter J. Leithart

Peter J. Leithart is an American author, minister, theologian and president of Trinity House Institute for Biblical, Liturgical, & Cultural Studies in Birmingham, Alabama. Leithart blogs at Peter J. Leithart, which is hosted by the journal First Things. He previously served as Senior Fellow of Theology and Literature as well as Dean of Graduate Studies at New Saint Andrews College. He was selected by the Association of Reformed Institutions of Higher Education to be one of the organization's 2010-2012 Lecturers.

The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity by Andreas J. Kostenberger and Michael J. Kruger

Andreas J. Köstenberger is Senior Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) in Wake Forest, North Carolina. He is editor of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (JETS) and founder of Biblical Foundations, an organization that "exists to strengthen the biblical foundations of the family, the church, and society.

Michael J. Kruger is President and the Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, NC. He is ordained in the Presbyterian Church in America and also serves (part-time) as Pastor of Teaching at Uptown PCA in downtown Charlotte.

Returning to First Century Theology [Kindle Edition] by L. Hudson Turner

L. Hudson Turner attended Dallas Theological Seminary where he received a ThM in Christian Education and a PhD in New Testament Studies. He joined the staff of Campus Crusade for Christ in 1981 and was a part of that organization's International School of Theology-Asia in the Philippines for 12 years, teaching mostly New Testament courses and serving as the Academic Dean for his last 7 years there. In 2005 he became a teaching fellow with the International Institute for Christian Studies and taught two years at Kaduna State College of Education in Nigeria and three years in the Department of Philosophy and Religion at Minzu University in Beijing.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 03:36:34 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2015, 03:36:08 PM »
"[8:42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:
Orthodox Christians love Christ.

for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [...] [14:15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. [...]
The whole goal of the Orthodox Christian life is to keep Christ's commandments.

[18:36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."--John KJV
In pointing out the historical symphony between Church and Empire in the Eastern Christian world and misidentifying it as a fornication between the Church and the heathen state, you overlook the tradition of monasticism that has always served to remind us exactly that Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

"[2:21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"--1Peter KJV
You don't understand us very well if you think we don't follow His steps.

Tony
On the subject of monasticism, you do realize that you post here with a variant of the name of one of our greatest monastic fathers?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2015, 03:37:44 PM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.



Nathanael,

Thanks for the input. You may very well be right. Christ did say the Way is narrow and few would find it (Matthew 7:14). And his statement in Luke 18:8 indicates that it will only be more so as time goes on and we get closer to the last of days. God has given us a solution for that problem. It's called repentance/a change of heart, which God has commanded all men everywhere to do.

Tony
If the Way is narrow and few will find it, how do you know that you have found it and are not deceived like the rest of us? All Christianity calls for repentance and a change of heart. Surely that cannot be the only qualification or it isn't a very narrow and hidden Way.

Very few call for true repentance.  

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2015, 03:38:48 PM »
Quote from: Porter ODoran
the rest of the years of your life peaceful and quiet ones.

It'd be nice but things are heating up.

Tony

Let me guess -- God has called you to post these things to multiple internet forums.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2015, 03:42:42 PM »
Quote from: Porter ODoran
the rest of the years of your life peaceful and quiet ones.

It'd be nice but things are heating up.

Tony

Let me guess -- God has called you to post these things to multiple internet forums.

No, I actually don't feel much like posting here. But I felt I should at least finish with this one before I stop, at least for some time again, since I said I would. If you haven't noticed this is an old resurrected thread. I haven't been here for some time.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2015, 03:44:09 PM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.



Nathanael,

Thanks for the input. You may very well be right. Christ did say the Way is narrow and few would find it (Matthew 7:14). And his statement in Luke 18:8 indicates that it will only be more so as time goes on and we get closer to the last of days. God has given us a solution for that problem. It's called repentance/a change of heart, which God has commanded all men everywhere to do.

Tony
If the Way is narrow and few will find it, how do you know that you have found it and are not deceived like the rest of us? All Christianity calls for repentance and a change of heart. Surely that cannot be the only qualification or it isn't a very narrow and hidden Way.

Very few call for true repentance.  

Tony
So you are capable of discerning that Orthodox Christians do not call for true repentance whereas you have confidence that you do?  And you also say that there is no possiblity of any self-deceit on your own part? This is most interesting...
God bless!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2015, 05:27:29 PM »
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 05:27:42 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Nathanael

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
Quote
Anyone with an honest and good heart can understand the Word of God.
The problem is that a good heart have just 0.0001% of the world population.



Nathanael,

Thanks for the input. You may very well be right. Christ did say the Way is narrow and few would find it (Matthew 7:14). And his statement in Luke 18:8 indicates that it will only be more so as time goes on and we get closer to the last of days. God has given us a solution for that problem. It's called repentance/a change of heart, which God has commanded all men everywhere to do.

Tony
Changing heart is a lifelong process. It has nothing to do with a "newborn-experience".
Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2015, 01:12:37 AM »
All known wilfull sins unto death have to stop in initial repentance and faith for one to get into Christ. But after that there is still refinement to be done in moving on toward perfection.

Mike and I are not in agreement on some of the more minor issues of the faith. However, within the realm of man's free will and ability, and repentance and faith proven by deeds, we are pretty much in 100% agreement. He's a BIG reason why I woke up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/holdingfirmly

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2015, 01:56:57 AM »
Calling one's whole remainder of life "still refinement" is a bit blind, if I may say. They are going to be dreary and anxious decades for you if you're sure God was done saving you x-number of years ago.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2015, 08:23:53 AM »
Calling one's whole remainder of life "still refinement" is a bit blind, if I may say. They are going to be dreary and anxious decades for you if you're sure God was done saving you x-number of years ago.

Romans 6 & 8

1John

Hebrews 6 & 10

Revelation 1-3

If we (humans) have free will and no sinful nature that we are born with, what is stopping us from obeying God? If we're not obeying God then I can only think of one reason for that, it's because we don't want to bad enough--it's our fault. Therefore what excuse is there? None. And if there is no excuse then disobedience while claiming the Name of God is mocking him and causing his Name to be spoken evil of among the Gentiles. And we know that God is not mocked.

Tony

P.S. I believe true Christians are saved, are being saved, and will be 100% saved (safe) in the end if they endure to that point.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 08:25:53 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2015, 09:14:22 AM »
We know that there is Apostolic Succession, because it happens directly in Acts 1: Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. Numerous other Bishops pop up in the New Testament, such as Timothy and Titus (cf. 1 Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5; Paul even tells Titus to "rebuke with all authority" in Titus 2:15). And we know that the Bishops of the 4th century are their successors because of the comprehensive histories of Eusebius of Caesarea, Irenaeus, and others, that trace the Apostolic lineage in the Sees of Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Yes Matthias was actually an APOSTLE not just an overseer over a certain congregation. Because Judas apostatized, they needed to fill the gap in order to complete their mission to go into all nations and preach the Good News. Acts actually gives us the criteria that one required to meet to be numbered with the Twelve.

[1:21] Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, [1:22] beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection.”—ASV2

After the Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them. That’s why those who they ordained in the Assemblies before they left us were called “OVERSEERS” NOT Apostles.

Tony

It is not quite that simple. First a matter of definitions

"The word "apostle" has two meanings, the broader meaning of a messenger and the narrow meaning of an early Christian apostle directly linked to Jesus. The more general meaning of the word is translated into Latin as 'missio', and from this word we get 'missionary.'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle

"A bishop (English derivation from the New Testament Greek ἐπίσκοπος, epískopos, "overseer", "guardian") is an ordained or consecrated member of the Christian clergy who is generally entrusted with a position of authority and oversight." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

So who are the early Christian apostles directly linked to Jesus and what became of them? We know of the twelve, so I will just talk about the 70 disciples  whom Jesus appointed himself as missionaries or apostles to go out two by two (Mark 10:1-24). They were:

Archaicus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17

Agabus. Reference to in Acts 11:28; 21:10

Amplias, appointed by St. Andrew as bishop of Lydda of Odyssopolis (Diospolis) in Judea. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:8.

Ananias, who baptized St. Paul. He was the bishop of Damascus. He became a martyr by being stoned in Eleutheropolis. Reference to in Acts 9:10-17; 22:12

Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia. Reference to in Romans 16:17

Apelles, bishop of Heraclea (in Trachis). Reference to in Romans 16:10

Apollos. He was a bishop of several places over time: Crete (though this is questioned), Corinth, Smyrna, and Caesarea. Reference to in Acts 18:24; 19:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12; 3:4-22; 4:6; 16:12, Titus 3:13

Aquila. He was martyred. Reference to in Acts 18:2, 18, 26; Romans 16:3; 1 Corinthians 16:19; 2 Timothy 4:19

Archippus. Reference to in Colossians 4:17; Philemon 2

Aristarchus, bishop of Apamea in Syria. He was martyred under Nero.
“Aristarchus, whom Paul mentions several times, calling him a ‘fellow laborer,’ became bishop of Apamea in Syria.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 19:29; 20:4; 27:2; Colossians 4:10; Philemon 24

Aristobulus, bishop of Britain. “… the brother of the apostle Barnabas, preached the gospel in Great Britain and died peacefully there.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Romans 16:14

Artemas, bishop of Lystra in Lycia. Reference to in Titus 3:12

Aristarchus, bishop of Hyracania in Asia. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Barnabas. “A Jew of the Tribe of Levi, was born in Cyprus of wealthy parents. He is said to have studied under Gamaliel with Saul of Tarsus, who was to become Paul the apostle. Originally named Joseph, he was called Barnabas (Son of Consolation) by the apostles because he had a rare gift of comforting people’s hearts. He sought out Paul when everyone else was afraid of him, bringing him to the apostles. It was Barnabas whom the apostles first sent to Antioch with Paul. Their long association was broken only when Barnabas was determined to take his cousin Mark, whom Paul did not trust just then, on a missionary journey. The three were later reconciled. Many ancient accounts say Barnabas was the first to preach in Rome and in Milan, but he was martyred in Cyprus, then buried by Mark at the western gate of the city of Salamis.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in Acts 4:36; 9:27; 11-15; 1 Corinthians 9:6; Galatians 2:1,9,13; Colossians 4:10

Caesar, bishop of Dyrrhachium (in the Peloponnese of Greece)

Carpus, bishop of Berroia (Verria, in Macedonia. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:13

Clement, bishop in Sardis. Reference to in Philippians 4:3

Cephas, bishop of Iconium, Pamphyllia.

Cleopas, was with the Lord on the road to Emmaus. Reference to in Luke 24:18; John 19:25

Crescens, later bishop of Galatia. He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:10

Crispus, bishop of Aegina, Greece. Reference to in Acts 18:8; 1 Corinthians 1:14

Epaphras. Reference to in Colossians 1:7; 4:12; Philemon 23

Epaphroditus, bishop of the Thracian city of Adriaca. Reference to in Philippians 2:25; 4:18

Epaenetus, bishop of Carthage. Reference to in Romans 16:5

Erastus. He served as a deacon and steward to the Church of Jerusalem. Later he served in Palestine. Reference to in Acts 19:22; Romans 16:23; 2 Timothy 4:20

Euodias(Evodius), first bishop of Antioch after St.Peter. He wrote several compositions. At the age of sixty-six, under the Emperor Nero, he was martyred. Reference to in Philippians 4:2

Fortunatus. Reference to in 1 Corinthians 16:17

Gaius, bishop of Ephesus. Reference to in Acts 19:29; 20:4; Romans 16:23; 1 Corinthians 1:14; 3 John 1

Hermas, bishop in Philipopoulis. He wrote The Shepherd of Hermas. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Hermes, bishop of Dalmatia. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Herodion, a relative of the Apostle Paul, bishop of Neoparthia. He was beheaded in Rome. Reference to in Romans 16:11

James, brother of the Lord (also called "the Less" or "the Just"). He was a (step-)brother to Jesus, by Jesus' father Joseph, through a previous marriage. James was the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Acts 12:17; 15:13; Epistle of James

Jason, bishop of Tarsus. Traveling with Sosipater to Corfu, the two were able, after an attempt made at their lives by the king of Corfu, to convert his majesty. Reference to in Acts 17:5-9

Justus, brother to the Lord and bishop of Eleutheropolis. He was the half-brother of Christ (as was Sts. James, Jude, and Simon) through Joseph's previous marriage to Salome. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 1:23; 18:7; Colossians 4:11

Linus, bishop of Rome. Reference to in 2 Timothy 4:21

Lucius, bishop of Laodicea. Reference to in Acts 13:1; Romans 16:21

Luke the Evangelist. He is the author of the Gospel of Luke, and the founder of Iconography (Orthodox Icon-writing). Reference to in Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24

Mark the Evangelist (called John). He wrote the Gospel of Mark. He also founded the Church of Alexandria, serving as its first bishop. Reference to in Acts 12:12, 25; 15:37-39; Colossians 4:10; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 24; 1 Peter 5:13
Mark

Narcissus, ordained by the Apostle Philip as bishop of Athens, Greece. Reference to in Romans 16:11

Nicanor, one of the original seven deacons. He was martyred on the same day as the Promartyr Stephen. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Olympas, beheaded with St. Peter under Nero. Reference to in Romans 16:15

Onesimus. Onesimus preached the Gospel in many cities. He was made bishop of Ephesus, and later bishop of Byzantium (Constantinople). He was martyred under the Emperor Trajan. Reference to in Colossians 4:9; Philemon 10
Onesiphorus, bishop of Colophon (Asia Minor), and later of Corinth. He died a martyr in Parium. Reference to in 2 Timothy 1:16; 4:19

Parmenas, one of the original seven deacons. He preached throughout Asia Minor, and later settled in Macedonia. He was a bishop of Soli. He died a martyr in Macedonia. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Patrobus, bishop of Neapolis (Naples). Reference to in Romans 16:14

Philemon. He, with his wife Apphia, and the apostle Archippus, were martyred by pagans during a pagan feast. Reference to in Philemon 1

Philip the Deacon (one of the original seven). He was born in Palestine, and later preached throughout its adjoining lands. In Acts, he converts a eunuch (an official) of Candace, queen of Ethiopia, to Christ. He was later made bishop by the apostles at Jerusalem, who also sent him to Asia Minor. Reference to in Acts 6; 8; 21:8

Philologus, ordained bishop of Sinope (near the Black sea) by the Apostle Andrew. Reference to in Romans 16:15

Phlegon, bishop of Marathon, in Thrace. Reference to in Romans 16:14

Prochorus, one of the original seven deacons. He was made bishop of Nicomedia by St. Peter. He was later banished with the Apostle John (John the Theologian) to the Island of Patmos. In Antioch, he died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Pudens (Pastorum). He was an esteemed member of the Roman Senate, then received Sts. Peter and Paul into his home, and was converted to Christ by them. He was martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 6:5

Quadratus, bishop of Athens. He was author of the Apologia. He was stoned, but survived. Soon-after, he died of starvation in prison.

Quartus, bishop of Beirut. Reference to in Romans 16:23

Rufus, bishop of Thebes, Greece. Reference to in Mark 15:21; Romans 16:13

Silas (Silvanus), bishop of Corinth. Reference to in Acts 15:22-40; 16:19-40; 17:4-15; 18:5; 2 Corinthians 1:19; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:1; 1 Peter 5:12

Simeon, son of Cleopas. “Simeon, son of Cleopas (who was the brother of Joseph, the betrothed of the Virgin Mary), succeeded James as bishop of Jerusalem.” Orthodox Study Bible. He was martyred through torture and crucifixion, at the age of one-hundred. Reference to in Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3
Sosipater, ordained bishop of Iconium by the Apostle Paul, his relative. With St. Jason, he converted the king of Corfu. Reference to in Romans 16:21
Sosthenes. “… became bishop of Caesarea.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 1 Corinthians 1:1

Stachys, ordained by St. Andrew to be bishop of Byzantium. Reference to in Romans 16:9

Stephen the Promartyr and Archdeacon (one of the original seven deacons). Reference to in Acts 6:5-7:60; 8:2 (Acts 6:5-8:2); 11:19; 22:20

Tertius, bishop of Iconium (after Sosipater). He wrote down St. Paul's letter to the Romans. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:22

Thaddaeus. He was baptized by John the Baptist (John the Forerunner). He later preached, and founded a Church in Beirut. Reference to in Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18

Timon, one of the original seven deacons, and later bishop of Bostra (in Arabia). He was thrown into a furnace, but emerged unharmed. Reference to in Acts 6:5
Timothy. He accompanied St. Paul often, and both 1 and 2 Timothy are addressed to him. He was ordained bishop of Ephesus by St. Paul. He died a martyr. Reference to in Acts 16:1; 17:14, 15; 18:5; 19:22; 20:4; Romans 16:21; 1 and 2 Timothy

Titus. “Among the more prominent of the seventy was the apostle Titus, whom Paul called his brother and his son. Born in Crete, Titus was educated in Greek philosophy, but after reading the prophet Isaiah he began to doubt the value of all he had been taught. Hearing the news of the coming of Jesus Christ, he joined some others from Crete who were going to Jerusalem to see for themselves. After hearing Jesus speak and seeing His works, the young Titus joined those who followed Him. Baptized by the apostle Paul, he worked with and served the great apostle of the gentiles, traveling with him until Paul sent him to Crete, making him bishop of that city. It is said that Titus was in Rome at the time of the beheading of St. Paul and that he buried the body of his spiritual father before returning home. Back in Crete, he converted and baptized many people, governing the Church on that island until he entered into rest at the age of ninety-four.” Orthodox Study Bible Reference to in 2 Corinthians 2:13; 7:6-14; 8:6-23; 12:18; Galatians 2:1-3; Epistle to Titus

Trophimus, disciple of St. Paul, and martyred under Nero. Reference to in Acts 20:4; 21:29; 2 Timothy 4:20

Tychicus. “… succeeded him (Sosthenes, as bishop) in that city (of Caesarea).” Orthodox Study Bible. He delivered St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Colossians. Reference to in Acts 20:4; Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 4:7; 2 Timothy 4:12; Titus 3:12

Urbanus, ordained by the Apostle Andrew as bishop of Macedonia. He died a martyr. Reference to in Romans 16:9

Zenas (called 'the lawyer'), bishop of Diospolis (Lydda), in Palestine. Reference to in Titus 3:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventy_disciples#The_first_list_and_other_lists

Please note that many of them later became deacons and bishops, while some did not. But, all of them were true apostles sent out by the Lord Himself. Given the first definition, that of a missionary, I would think that there are many others that the Lord has called over the centuries to do just that. You say "After the (Twelve) Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them." As I showed you above, you were wrong to restrict the function of missionary or apostle to the original twelve. You are also wrong to say that Christ Himself no longer called folks to become missionaries. What a slap in the face of so many good Christian men and women!

I suppose I may be able to agree with you on this point that there are apostles in the sense of sent ones/delegates/emissaries/ambassadors/missionaries. But as far as I know this is not really the main job of a bishop/overseer. The bishop oversees a particular assembly. Apostles are sent to preach the Gospel everywhere.

That said, does this mean you agree that the office of Apostle, such as THE 12 + 2 (Paul and Barnabas) Apostles does not continue? Or do you believe this was succeeded too? And if so how?

I still need to look deeper into the info you gave and check the sources to say what basis there is for this list of names.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2015, 09:40:41 AM »
We know that there is Apostolic Succession, because it happens directly in Acts 1: Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot. Numerous other Bishops pop up in the New Testament, such as Timothy and Titus (cf. 1 Tim 1:3 and Titus 1:5; Paul even tells Titus to "rebuke with all authority" in Titus 2:15). And we know that the Bishops of the 4th century are their successors because of the comprehensive histories of Eusebius of Caesarea, Irenaeus, and others, that trace the Apostolic lineage in the Sees of Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Yes Matthias was actually an APOSTLE not just an overseer over a certain congregation. Because Judas apostatized, they needed to fill the gap in order to complete their mission to go into all nations and preach the Good News. Acts actually gives us the criteria that one required to meet to be numbered with the Twelve.

[1:21] Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, [1:22] beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection.”—ASV2

After the Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them. That’s why those who they ordained in the Assemblies before they left us were called “OVERSEERS” NOT Apostles.

Tony

So who are the early Christian apostles directly linked to Jesus and what became of them? We know of the twelve, so I will just talk about the 70 disciples whom Jesus appointed himself as missionaries
....
Please note that many of them later became deacons and bishops, while some did not. But, all of them were true apostles sent out by the Lord Himself. Given the first definition, that of a missionary, I would think that there are many others that the Lord has called over the centuries to do just that. You say "After the (Twelve) Apostles died, the office of Apostle died with them." As I showed you above, you were wrong to restrict the function of missionary or apostle to the original twelve. You are also wrong to say that Christ Himself no longer called folks to become missionaries. What a slap in the face of so many good Christian men and women!

I suppose I may be able to agree with you on this point that there are apostles in the sense of sent ones, delegates, emissaries, ambassadors, or missionaries. But as far as I know this is not really the main job of a bishop/overseer. The bishop oversees a particular assembly. Apostles are sent to preach the Gospel everywhere.

That said, does this mean you agree that the office of Apostle, such as THE 12 + 2 (Paul and Barnabas) Apostles does not continue? Or do you believe this was succeeded too? And if so how?

I still need to look deeper into the info you gave and check the sources to say what basis there is for this list of names.

Tony

Of course there were apostles throughout history. Here is a partial list of saints who are called equal-to-the-apostles:

Mary Magdalene (1st century)
Photine, the Samaritan Woman at the Well (1st century)
Thekla (1st century)
Abercius of Hieropolis (2nd century)
Helena of Constantinople (ca. 250 – ca. 330)
Saint Nino (ca. 296 – ca. 338 or 340), baptizer of the Georgians
Mirian III of Iberia (died 361), first Christian Georgian monarch
Patrick of Ireland (5th century)
Cyril (827 – 869)
Methodius (826 – 885)
Innocent of Alaska (1797 – 1879)
Nicholas of Japan (1836 – 1912)

In addition, there were many who were missionaries; the first American saint, for example, was St. Herman of Alaska.

The main job of the bishop was, and continues to be, to lead as chief pastor. In the earliest church there was one bishop per congregation in each city as you saw in the list of the 70 Apostles. Within a short time, the Church had grown so that bishops started to deputize priests as pastors of congregations, remaining as the arch-pastor of each parish in his appointed geographic area of responsibility. Indeed. St. Ignatius of Antioch (martyred AD 107) famously said that the church was present whenever one had a bishop surrounded by his people (priests, deacons and laity).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 10:01:02 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2015, 03:04:23 PM »
Even a perfect text is useless to assure truth if you don't have perfect readers.

Who decides who has a pure heart and therefore is reading the perfect inerrant truth without biases and prejudices?

Infallibility of the Pope and Inerrancy of the Bible are the two wings of a bird flying very far away from the Church of Christ. Both immanentize the Providence of the Holy Spirit and, at least for dogma and doctrine, imprison it in only one source.
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Offline biro

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2015, 03:06:16 PM »
All known wilfull sins unto death have to stop in initial repentance and faith for one to get into Christ. But after that there is still refinement to be done in moving on toward perfection.

Mike and I are not in agreement on some of the more minor issues of the faith. However, within the realm of man's free will and ability, and repentance and faith proven by deeds, we are pretty much in 100% agreement. He's a BIG reason why I woke up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/holdingfirmly

Tony

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2015, 03:48:27 PM »
Calling one's whole remainder of life "still refinement" is a bit blind, if I may say. They are going to be dreary and anxious decades for you if you're sure God was done saving you x-number of years ago.

Romans 6 & 8

1John

Hebrews 6 & 10

Revelation 1-3

If we (humans) have free will and no sinful nature that we are born with, what is stopping us from obeying God? If we're not obeying God then I can only think of one reason for that, it's because we don't want to bad enough--it's our fault. Therefore what excuse is there? None. And if there is no excuse then disobedience while claiming the Name of God is mocking him and causing his Name to be spoken evil of among the Gentiles. And we know that God is not mocked.

Tony

P.S. I believe true Christians are saved, are being saved, and will be 100% saved (safe) in the end if they endure to that point.

While I'm not suggesting there's a coherent point in this post, I assume it intended to congeal around a claim that you yourself do not disobey God. Is that something you would say?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2015, 04:04:33 PM »
All known wilfull sins unto death have to stop in initial repentance and faith for one to get into Christ. But after that there is still refinement to be done in moving on toward perfection.

Mike and I are not in agreement on some of the more minor issues of the faith. However, within the realm of man's free will and ability, and repentance and faith proven by deeds, we are pretty much in 100% agreement. He's a BIG reason why I woke up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/holdingfirmly

Tony

I tend not to take my faith direction from people with writing boards on You Tube.
How does one's activity on a YouTube writing board disqualify him from giving faith direction?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2015, 02:22:30 AM »
From the comments I've read in favor of remaining in sin and defending continuing in it by some sort of inability I really don't see how the Orthodox Church is much better than Protestants. Both sound like great swelling words of emptiness. The doctrines might be different, but in the end it's basically the same thing. Both have the old man still alive as can be, body of sin not being done away with, the Christian living a life of failure till the end when they can finally make their death bed confession and then God takes them home and changes their desires in heaven, by the sounds of it. But while their here they'll be fornicating, molesting,lying, cheating, cursing, drinking, etc.--at least occasionally. A far cry from what the 1st and 2nd Century believers believed and did.

Ignatius said that no one making a true profession of faith sins, alluding to what the Emissary John said. If he is correct then nobody who sins is truly professing Christ. That rules out almost everyone today.

I still have work to do, but as far as I know I'm probably not doing anything that will immediately disqualify me from the Kingdom. Unless all divorce and remarriage is truly sin as some of those who take the most extreme view say. But I'm not convinced on that from my studies and those of others, so I'm not about to do something radical that will affect my family in just a drastic way in something doubtful. I've already done that with other things before and it caused problems and then later on I found out I was wrong. Though as Paul said, ultimately we can judge nothing before the time with 100% certainty. I'm certainly not living a worldly life full of lust, constantly struggling. I have some anger problems to deal with. And I also have to learn to have the love I had when I first came to Christ before I started falling away from simplicity in him. It's a lot harder to become loving after you've become a believer having become so by the cross  shedding such love abroad in your heart, and then fallen away from it, and then to come out of that, then it is to do so by coming to Christ as a full fledged heathen man. Prayer could be much better too. I fully confess. But does that mean I should stop speaking the truth in love. I've seen what goes on in the mainstream churches, and I'll continue to remain outside of the system where one actually has a chance of overcoming, and there's less risk of compromising with error and lawlessness.

I clearly seen that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy. I even, by reading the early Fathers honestly can not see that if they were in this time, that they would even allow a forum like this where we can free for all. They'd be too concerned about people (heretics) coming in and sowing seeds of falsehood and leading sheep astray. That's how serious it was for them to guard themselves against false teachers.

Justin Martyr said that after baptism we have to live sinless lives.

Today the Orthodox Church sounds like the Protestants to me, the only difference being, it's according to your doctrines.

Tony
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline biro

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2015, 04:02:02 AM »
"I clearly see that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy."

You've got to be kidding me.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2015, 09:39:46 AM »
From the comments I've read in favor of remaining in sin and defending continuing in it by some sort of inability I really don't see how the Orthodox Church is much better than Protestants. Both sound like great swelling words of emptiness. The doctrines might be different, but in the end it's basically the same thing. Both have the old man still alive as can be, body of sin not being done away with, the Christian living a life of failure till the end when they can finally make their death bed confession and then God takes them home and changes their desires in heaven, by the sounds of it. But while their here they'll be fornicating, molesting,lying, cheating, cursing, drinking, etc.--at least occasionally. A far cry from what the 1st and 2nd Century believers believed and did.

Ignatius said that no one making a true profession of faith sins, alluding to what the Emissary John said. If he is correct then nobody who sins is truly professing Christ. That rules out almost everyone today.

I still have work to do, but as far as I know I'm probably not doing anything that will immediately disqualify me from the Kingdom. Unless all divorce and remarriage is truly sin as some of those who take the most extreme view say. But I'm not convinced on that from my studies and those of others, so I'm not about to do something radical that will affect my family in just a drastic way in something doubtful. I've already done that with other things before and it caused problems and then later on I found out I was wrong. Though as Paul said, ultimately we can judge nothing before the time with 100% certainty. I'm certainly not living a worldly life full of lust, constantly struggling. I have some anger problems to deal with. And I also have to learn to have the love I had when I first came to Christ before I started falling away from simplicity in him. It's a lot harder to become loving after you've become a believer having become so by the cross  shedding such love abroad in your heart, and then fallen away from it, and then to come out of that, then it is to do so by coming to Christ as a full fledged heathen man. Prayer could be much better too. I fully confess. But does that mean I should stop speaking the truth in love. I've seen what goes on in the mainstream churches, and I'll continue to remain outside of the system where one actually has a chance of overcoming, and there's less risk of compromising with error and lawlessness.

I clearly seen that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy. I even, by reading the early Fathers honestly can not see that if they were in this time, that they would even allow a forum like this where we can free for all. They'd be too concerned about people (heretics) coming in and sowing seeds of falsehood and leading sheep astray. That's how serious it was for them to guard themselves against false teachers.

Justin Martyr said that after baptism we have to live sinless lives.

Today the Orthodox Church sounds like the Protestants to me, the only difference being, it's according to your doctrines.

Tony
How exactly would these early Fathers ban internet forums? I'm interested in learning how such a thing might happen.
God bless!

Offline sakura95

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2015, 09:47:02 AM »
From the comments I've read in favor of remaining in sin and defending continuing in it by some sort of inability I really don't see how the Orthodox Church is much better than Protestants. Both sound like great swelling words of emptiness. The doctrines might be different, but in the end it's basically the same thing. Both have the old man still alive as can be, body of sin not being done away with, the Christian living a life of failure till the end when they can finally make their death bed confession and then God takes them home and changes their desires in heaven, by the sounds of it. But while their here they'll be fornicating, molesting,lying, cheating, cursing, drinking, etc.--at least occasionally. A far cry from what the 1st and 2nd Century believers believed and did.

Ignatius said that no one making a true profession of faith sins, alluding to what the Emissary John said. If he is correct then nobody who sins is truly professing Christ. That rules out almost everyone today.

I still have work to do, but as far as I know I'm probably not doing anything that will immediately disqualify me from the Kingdom. Unless all divorce and remarriage is truly sin as some of those who take the most extreme view say. But I'm not convinced on that from my studies and those of others, so I'm not about to do something radical that will affect my family in just a drastic way in something doubtful. I've already done that with other things before and it caused problems and then later on I found out I was wrong. Though as Paul said, ultimately we can judge nothing before the time with 100% certainty. I'm certainly not living a worldly life full of lust, constantly struggling. I have some anger problems to deal with. And I also have to learn to have the love I had when I first came to Christ before I started falling away from simplicity in him. It's a lot harder to become loving after you've become a believer having become so by the cross  shedding such love abroad in your heart, and then fallen away from it, and then to come out of that, then it is to do so by coming to Christ as a full fledged heathen man. Prayer could be much better too. I fully confess. But does that mean I should stop speaking the truth in love. I've seen what goes on in the mainstream churches, and I'll continue to remain outside of the system where one actually has a chance of overcoming, and there's less risk of compromising with error and lawlessness.

I clearly seen that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy. I even, by reading the early Fathers honestly can not see that if they were in this time, that they would even allow a forum like this where we can free for all. They'd be too concerned about people (heretics) coming in and sowing seeds of falsehood and leading sheep astray. That's how serious it was for them to guard themselves against false teachers.

Justin Martyr said that after baptism we have to live sinless lives.

Today the Orthodox Church sounds like the Protestants to me, the only difference being, it's according to your doctrines.

Tony

You never cease to amaze me. St Ignatius also extort one to submit to the Bishop. Or where ever the Bishop is, there's the "Catholic Church".

St Justin Martyr taught that the Eucharist nourishes the flesh and blood of the recipient by transforming them. The Eucharist is also the Body and Blood of Christ.

But these things, you don't believe. So you are cherry picking to say the least.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2015, 10:16:27 AM »
Quote from: TheTrisagion
How exactly would these early Fathers ban internet forums? I'm interested in learning how such a thing might happen.

I never said that. I was saying that if they had a forum like this they would not allow this Free-For-All from what I can tell.

Quote from: sakura95
So you are cherry picking to say the least.

I don't think so. Though I have yet to do a detailed analysis of the ANF.

Tony
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Offline sakura95

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2015, 10:17:37 AM »
Quote from: TheTrisagion
How exactly would these early Fathers ban internet forums? I'm interested in learning how such a thing might happen.

I never said that. I was saying that if they had a forum like this they would not allow this Free-For-All from what I can tell.

Quote from: sakura95
So you are cherry picking to say the least.

I don't think so. Though I have yet to do a detailed analysis of the ANF.

Tony

Read them first before saying anything.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2015, 10:41:06 AM »
Quote from: sakura95
So you are cherry picking to say the least.

I don't think so. Though I have yet to do a detailed analysis of the ANF.

Tony
I don't know how much of the ANF you have read, but most people I have encountered that actually have read and studied them have quickly come to the conclusion of the necessity of a visible Church with apostolic succession. That pretty much narrows your choices down to Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox. I know it did for me. I used to make the same arguments that I see you making on here until I actually started reading them and realized that the Church was not just something that was made up by the evil Emperor Constantine. It existed well before he did and believed the same things that Orthodoxy believes today. After that, it is really just a question of whether you take the red pill or the blue pill. #matrix

God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2015, 09:45:05 PM »
"I clearly see that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy."

You've got to be kidding me.
Would you like to offer something of substance in reply?
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Offline biro

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Re: Con't: What Scripture says about the Church and authority
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2015, 11:57:05 PM »
"I clearly see that the Orthodox Church has watered things down like crazy."

You've got to be kidding me.
Would you like to offer something of substance in reply?

Funny, that's what I think about a lot of your posts.

Would you mind not telling me what to say?
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