Author Topic: When is communion/consecration null?  (Read 12612 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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When is communion/consecration null?
« on: November 04, 2014, 12:19:59 PM »
I was reading this thread - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,62021.msg1114584/boardseen.html#new

To give summary, it's one of those tragic moments in the EO church when communion ends up in less than ideal conditions.  I remember back in the day things such as 2 year old spitting it out, elderly trouble, and 1 simple and plain "missed connection" where the parishoner simply moved "fast" and the spoon hit his bottom lip and it fell (in the cloth).

I totally understand the EO viewpoint on communion being the actual body & blood of Christ and understand exactly the way it is revered.

So at this point I have to say that I totally do not mean ANY disrespect whatsoever.  But some of the practices do not make any sense to me.

1)  I have often bled on the pasture that we have.  Once a barbed wire fence that I was working on got snagged in a tractor's post hole digger about 100 yards away (we were putting up fence and it was drilling new fence post holes).   The wire wrapped around the "corkscrew" and pulled hard and fast.  Needless to say, I was gripping the barbed wire when suddenly it was "JOLTED".  Right through my leather gloves came HORRIBLE pain because the barb was ripped right across both palms - and deeply.   Blood went EVERYWHERE, when I pulled off the gloves.  Pulsing out.  It looked like a bad horror movie.   What seemed like cupfuls pooled on the ground until I could get my shirt off and clasped my hands on my shirt to put pressure on the wound.   Today though, though my blood is in the soil, I simply don't care if a cow poops, pees, or eats grass off it.   I would have been kind of weirded out I suppose if a dog licked up the fresh blood.  So it kind of confuses me that Jesus Christ would be concerned if his blood was spilled on accident (pure accident) without bad intent and he cared about it.   I'm sure many times as a carpenter he sliced and diced himself and people didn't come running scooping up the sawdust and dirt he bled on.  It just doesn't make sense to me to go through all the process such as cutting out carpets and all the like.  Why not just rug doctor it up and pour it on some plants?   It seems borderline idolatry in ways.

2)  Again, no disrespect - seriously.   On the farm and with my own life experience and having children, I can assure everybody that what we eat BECOMES poop.   If we eat the flesh and blood of Jesus, eventually it WILL become poop and be flushed into the nastiest sewage system (or septic) and combined with all types of other poop, pee, toilet paper, shower water, and who knows what else.   It is so nasty, that unlike garbage that we store for a once a week pickup, that we want it "out of there" and gone immediately.  So what exact point of the digestive system is communion no longer consecrated or the bread that is now poop no longer considered the body of Christ?    Yes, this IS a serious question that I believe many avoid because they don't want to "go there".  It is a reality.  If we are to go so far as to ensure that communion is never thrown into the trash or discarded in a disrespectful manner, the reality is that we flush it down a sewer UNLESS it is no longer considered the body & blood of Christ in digested form.  Does Christ ever leave the bread in the digestive track?     This is why also the final comment I made on my last question/statement applies again.  It feels like irony to go to "bizarre" or my opinionated  thought that it may be taken to fanatical/idolatry types of lengths to preserve the consecrated gift (with that attitude/belief) yet go home after a fellowship meal and well... you know.  Flush.

3. The gifts were originally given to the apostles at the last supper (passover meal).  In that setting were they going goofy over every little crumb that may have been missed?  I think we all know the reality is that crumbs we can't even see get away from us.  The same applies to communion.  Crumbs get away.  Why is it that only the ones we see get attention?

4. The blood of Christ inevitably would end up in the sinuses.  It's a reality on anything we drink.  Slight parts end up in the nasal and sinus passages.  Yes, this means if you blow your nose (within a certain time frame) or sneeze, part of the blood of Christ will come out.   Are we to capture the sneeze somehow?  Then why cut out carpet where something was accidently dropped?  It seems a double standard.


These EO practices mentioned in the original thread I posted, I understand them.  But it seems to be a double standard of fanaticism and practicality.   There are even priests who will eat the Eucharist out of vomit.... If they'll do this, why not eat it out of poop or lick a tissue?  It's really not that much grosser in the context of things.

I totally respect the Eucharist, but it seems there is a huge double standard in practical measure.  It's almost like "if it resembles the Eucharist in any way then we have to deal with it".   Why isn't as simple as full intent, or "it went in the toddler's mouth and that's what matters", or "the old man ate the body and blood of Christ and it dabbled out of his disabled mouth".... "It fell on the carpet, pick it up, clean the spot, etc.".   The lengths I've seen people go to, yet they won't deal with the reality that communion is in the sinuses, becomes poop, becomes pee, and the like is baffling.

It almost seems as if a fanatical show or undertaking can be "seen" then we should deal with it.  But the unseen we want to ignore and call it a mystery.   IE -  If it was just barfed up and the piece can be searched for, a priest very well may consume it.  If it was digested, he won't gather up the barf and drink it KNOWING it was in there....

So to summarize, isn't there a moment where the bread ceases to be the body and blood of Christ all in the digestive process (from the initial placing in the mouth to pooping it out)? 

Isn't the bread that a 2 year old who takes the communion chews it up, and spits part of it on the floor (being a child not knowing better), no longer "the body of Christ", but rather we can accept that Christ is now in him and not in the bread?

This is one of those threads where I get concerned the EO church puts the almighty God who formed the entire universe - where the Cherubim and Seraphim sing praises to him - yet this is a tiny box he's placed in through fanatical or idolatry types of belief. (or for show?)   Isn't he bigger than a 2 year old who doesn't even know what he's doing who spits out a tiny part? 
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2014, 12:22:13 PM »
you are not God.


your examples are therefore not parallels.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2014, 12:27:14 PM »
I revere the Body and Blood of the crucified and risen Christ far more than my own since He is God and I am not.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 12:27:38 PM »
it's not the Body and Blood of Christ that suffer through disrespect.
it's us who suffer spiritually when we treat it casually.
when we forget exactly what our Lord and Saviour suffered for us, we start to be casual in our spiritual lives,
praying only when we feel like it and sinning without remorse or repentance.

the outward acts of great reverence remind us again and again of the endless love and compassion of our Creator and Lord.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 12:44:00 PM »
DeniseDenise, I can see how you could formulate that out of my first example, but I had other examples as well.  However, the intent wasn't to make myself God, but to bring to the table that perhaps God doesn't care for accidental blood spillage just as we don't.    That plausibly fanatical acts are not needed.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 12:48:10 PM »
it's not the Body and Blood of Christ that suffer through disrespect.
it's us who suffer spiritually when we treat it casually.
when we forget exactly what our Lord and Saviour suffered for us, we start to be casual in our spiritual lives,
praying only when we feel like it and sinning without remorse or repentance.

the outward acts of great reverence remind us again and again of the endless love and compassion of our Creator and Lord.

I understand, but are the outward acts a double standard?   As per example #2, 99.9% reading this will flush it (yes I did make up that statistic).   I mean we could find a private spot and bury it.

It's about when does it become "null" at what point (consecration) - is the Eucharist no longer the body and blood, but fully absorbed.... Or when the outward reverence stops.

If a small baby partakes and spits up 25 minutes later, isn't Christ fully in them and the bread just bread.  Why go through all the measures when this is a seemingly gray area?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:48:54 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 12:49:23 PM »
DeniseDenise, I can see how you could formulate that out of my first example, but I had other examples as well.  However, the intent wasn't to make myself God, but to bring to the table that perhaps God doesn't care for accidental blood spillage just as we don't.    That plausibly fanatical acts are not needed.


The Church believes in Mysteries.  Just as I do not need to have detailed scientific info on -how- the wine and bread becomes the Body and Blood, I do not need to ponder what happens to it in my system, I believe that it is the Body and Blood.

'make me worthy without condemnation to receive Thy pure, immortal, life-giving and dread Mysteries, for forgiveness of sins and for eternal life, for sanctification and enlightenment and strength and healing and health of soul and body,'

Thus I believe the Body and Blood -goes- where it needs to go to inside me for the above purposes.  

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 12:57:07 PM »
DeniseDenise, I can see how you could formulate that out of my first example, but I had other examples as well.  However, the intent wasn't to make myself God, but to bring to the table that perhaps God doesn't care for accidental blood spillage just as we don't.    That plausibly fanatical acts are not needed.


The Church believes in Mysteries.  Just as I do not need to have detailed scientific info on -how- the wine and bread becomes the Body and Blood, I do not need to ponder what happens to it in my system, I believe that it is the Body and Blood.

'make me worthy without condemnation to receive Thy pure, immortal, life-giving and dread Mysteries, for forgiveness of sins and for eternal life, for sanctification and enlightenment and strength and healing and health of soul and body,'

Thus I believe the Body and Blood -goes- where it needs to go to inside me for the above purposes.  

I completely understand and agree.

My thread point though is when "does that stop".   Because in the thread I posted it refers to people chopping out church carpet and going to extreme lengths. 

When the partaker receives the gifts, as you stated it "goes" where it needs to go.

What I'm trying to understand is that if a 2 year old receives the gifts, chews it, swallows most of it, and savors part of it up in their upper gums, then spits it out later on, did it "go" where it needed to and "it's done" or do folks really need to go chopping out carpet or the like in order to feel better.

Respect of the unknown I fully understand.... If that same child spits up, I'd understand removing it from the spit up and respectfully place it outside.  What I don't understand is a priest thinking "it didn't go where it needed to", and eating it.   I mean if we go to those levels, then it opens the questions/statements I posted big time.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 01:09:09 PM »
The Body and Blood of Christ are not digested normally but instead by the soul.  Once there is becomes fire which either consumes the sins present.  If too much of the soul is stained by sin the fire can be dangerous, but otherwise serves to purify.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 01:44:54 PM »
I was reading this thread - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,62021.msg1114584/boardseen.html#new

To give summary, it's one of those tragic moments in the EO church when communion ends up in less than ideal conditions.  I remember back in the day things such as 2 year old spitting it out, elderly trouble, and 1 simple and plain "missed connection" where the parishoner simply moved "fast" and the spoon hit his bottom lip and it fell (in the cloth).

I totally understand the EO viewpoint on communion being the actual body & blood of Christ and understand exactly the way it is revered.

So at this point I have to say that I totally do not mean ANY disrespect whatsoever.  But some of the practices do not make any sense to me.

1)  I have often bled on the pasture that we have.  Once a barbed wire fence that I was working on got snagged in a tractor's post hole digger about 100 yards away (we were putting up fence and it was drilling new fence post holes).   The wire wrapped around the "corkscrew" and pulled hard and fast.  Needless to say, I was gripping the barbed wire when suddenly it was "JOLTED".  Right through my leather gloves came HORRIBLE pain because the barb was ripped right across both palms - and deeply.   Blood went EVERYWHERE, when I pulled off the gloves.  Pulsing out.  It looked like a bad horror movie.   What seemed like cupfuls pooled on the ground until I could get my shirt off and clasped my hands on my shirt to put pressure on the wound.   Today though, though my blood is in the soil, I simply don't care if a cow poops, pees, or eats grass off it.   I would have been kind of weirded out I suppose if a dog licked up the fresh blood.  So it kind of confuses me that Jesus Christ would be concerned if his blood was spilled on accident (pure accident) without bad intent and he cared about it.   I'm sure many times as a carpenter he sliced and diced himself and people didn't come running scooping up the sawdust and dirt he bled on.  It just doesn't make sense to me to go through all the process such as cutting out carpets and all the like.  Why not just rug doctor it up and pour it on some plants?   It seems borderline idolatry in ways.

2)  Again, no disrespect - seriously.   On the farm and with my own life experience and having children, I can assure everybody that what we eat BECOMES poop.   If we eat the flesh and blood of Jesus, eventually it WILL become poop and be flushed into the nastiest sewage system (or septic) and combined with all types of other poop, pee, toilet paper, shower water, and who knows what else.   It is so nasty, that unlike garbage that we store for a once a week pickup, that we want it "out of there" and gone immediately.  So what exact point of the digestive system is communion no longer consecrated or the bread that is now poop no longer considered the body of Christ?    Yes, this IS a serious question that I believe many avoid because they don't want to "go there".  It is a reality.  If we are to go so far as to ensure that communion is never thrown into the trash or discarded in a disrespectful manner, the reality is that we flush it down a sewer UNLESS it is no longer considered the body & blood of Christ in digested form.  Does Christ ever leave the bread in the digestive track?     This is why also the final comment I made on my last question/statement applies again.  It feels like irony to go to "bizarre" or my opinionated  thought that it may be taken to fanatical/idolatry types of lengths to preserve the consecrated gift (with that attitude/belief) yet go home after a fellowship meal and well... you know.  Flush.

3. The gifts were originally given to the apostles at the last supper (passover meal).  In that setting were they going goofy over every little crumb that may have been missed?  I think we all know the reality is that crumbs we can't even see get away from us.  The same applies to communion.  Crumbs get away.  Why is it that only the ones we see get attention?

4. The blood of Christ inevitably would end up in the sinuses.  It's a reality on anything we drink.  Slight parts end up in the nasal and sinus passages.  Yes, this means if you blow your nose (within a certain time frame) or sneeze, part of the blood of Christ will come out.   Are we to capture the sneeze somehow?  Then why cut out carpet where something was accidently dropped?  It seems a double standard.


These EO practices mentioned in the original thread I posted, I understand them.  But it seems to be a double standard of fanaticism and practicality.   There are even priests who will eat the Eucharist out of vomit.... If they'll do this, why not eat it out of poop or lick a tissue?  It's really not that much grosser in the context of things.

I totally respect the Eucharist, but it seems there is a huge double standard in practical measure.  It's almost like "if it resembles the Eucharist in any way then we have to deal with it".   Why isn't as simple as full intent, or "it went in the toddler's mouth and that's what matters", or "the old man ate the body and blood of Christ and it dabbled out of his disabled mouth".... "It fell on the carpet, pick it up, clean the spot, etc.".   The lengths I've seen people go to, yet they won't deal with the reality that communion is in the sinuses, becomes poop, becomes pee, and the like is baffling.

It almost seems as if a fanatical show or undertaking can be "seen" then we should deal with it.  But the unseen we want to ignore and call it a mystery.   IE -  If it was just barfed up and the piece can be searched for, a priest very well may consume it.  If it was digested, he won't gather up the barf and drink it KNOWING it was in there....

So to summarize, isn't there a moment where the bread ceases to be the body and blood of Christ all in the digestive process (from the initial placing in the mouth to pooping it out)? 

Isn't the bread that a 2 year old who takes the communion chews it up, and spits part of it on the floor (being a child not knowing better), no longer "the body of Christ", but rather we can accept that Christ is now in him and not in the bread?

This is one of those threads where I get concerned the EO church puts the almighty God who formed the entire universe - where the Cherubim and Seraphim sing praises to him - yet this is a tiny box he's placed in through fanatical or idolatry types of belief. (or for show?)   Isn't he bigger than a 2 year old who doesn't even know what he's doing who spits out a tiny part? 

Is that all food does, become poop?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 01:50:44 PM »
Jesus said, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me and I in him." He didn't tell us to examine in such a crassly materialistic way what happens to His Flesh and Blood after we consume it. Somehow I think it enough to know that Holy Communion is the means by which we abide in Christ and Him in us.
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Offline gavaisky

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 02:23:03 PM »
Here is an appropriate quote from St. John Damascene (emphasis mine):

Quote
The body and blood of Christ are making for the support of our soul and body, without being consumed or suffering corruption, not making for the draught (God forbid!) but for our being and preservation, a protection against all kinds of  injury, a purging from all uncleanness: should one receive base gold, they purify it by the critical burning lest in the future we be condemned with this world. (Exact Exposition, Bk. 4 Ch. 13)
Let the mouth too fast from disgraceful speeches and railing. For what does it profit if we abstain from birds and fishes, and yet bite and devour our brethren? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother, and bites the body of his neighbor.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 03:31:39 PM »
What comes out of our bodies after digestion is WASTE. Our bodies take all that is good from the food we eat and excrete what is left.  To suggest that any part of Christ is excreted at all is to say that any part of Christ is at best unneeded (as if our corrupted selves don't need every molecule of Christ) and at worst is a waste product to be cast out.  Whatever happens either physically or metaphysically it does not include the excretion of any part of our Lord.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2014, 03:36:09 PM »
Speculation regarding pooping after consuming the Eucharist.  I think I have seen it all now.  No wonder Protestants want to just call it quits at 'metaphorical'.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2014, 03:37:48 PM »
I think the reason people are so careful about particles has more to do with reverence then actual concern with Christ himself being harmed in some way.  It is an external way to express how serious we take the presence of our Lord.  It is similar to why we treat icons the way we do and are careful around them not just tossing them around letting them get worn.  We could draw icons out of crayon on the back of coloring pages, give them high fives and the Saints portrayed would not actually be effected.  But we don't because we want to show them our respect in the only way we can here on Earth.

Also Christ knows how children are and I have faith that their is something in place for those times when a child, or an adult even, drops a piece or spits it out unnoticed by anyone else.  I don't think God would allow the balance of the Universe to be threatened by a 3 year old.
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Offline Punch

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2014, 03:55:12 PM »
The body and blood of Christ are excreted as good works.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline homedad76

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2014, 04:10:37 PM »
The body and blood of Christ are excreted as good works.

You sir win 23 internets!
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Offline Nephi

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2014, 04:27:02 PM »
NVM
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 07:35:44 PM by Nephi »

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2014, 05:33:10 PM »
I would rather be overly cautious about what is done with the Holy Mysteries than have the Catholic problem where they routinely are worrying about people stealing them for Black Masses or kids in Catholic schools taking the wafers and sticking them under their desks with saliva. It is a lot harder to misplace Orthodox Eucharist given how it is presented.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2014, 05:41:22 PM »
Keep in mind both these threads are dealing with what we do when we actually find it on the ground or witness something happening.  Everyone should understand that, no matter what we do, there is going to be spillage and accidents.  And many times we will not even know that a particle ends up on the ground.  If we are making an honest effort to prevent accidents (or even deliberate abuse) while not putting up obstacles to reception we must have faith that God will understand our human shortcomings.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2014, 09:13:37 PM »
Is that all food does, become poop?

No. It has other uses in the body as well.
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« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 11:24:37 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 01:07:47 AM »
Quote
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11&version=NKJV

This is why we have so much reverence for Holy Communion.  It is also why you should think twice before speaking disrespectfully about it.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2014, 01:14:14 AM »
Keep in mind both these threads are dealing with what we do when we actually find it on the ground or witness something happening.  Everyone should understand that, no matter what we do, there is going to be spillage and accidents.  And many times we will not even know that a particle ends up on the ground.  If we are making an honest effort to prevent accidents (or even deliberate abuse) while not putting up obstacles to reception we must have faith that God will understand our human shortcomings.

Jesus said, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me and I in him." He didn't tell us to examine in such a crassly materialistic way what happens to His Flesh and Blood after we consume it. Somehow I think it enough to know that Holy Communion is the means by which we abide in Christ and Him in us.
 This is partially what I am talking about, but I believe you and I are seeing the glass perhaps half full/half empty way.  

While it is hard to exactly determine when the communion becomes "waste", it is also impossible to determine at exactly which point "He is in us and we in him" except by eating his flesh and drinking his blood.   So while yes, it is crass to consider that the reality is that the materialistic bread does become poop, it matters not - except there are some that will eat the bread out of fresh vomit, or pick up a tiny piece a child spits out.

Once a person consumes the communion, Christ is in them, and he in us.  We understand that.  But as per the other thread and this one, at which point are people just going too far in saying that the bread still contains Christ?  If one can extract what is seemingly bread out of chunks of vomit (never mind the child who was ill ate a bagel for breakfast) why do something like that?  At what point is he "in you", and at what point is "he in you and no longer in the bread".   Because if liquid vomit can't be consumed, but a piece extracted from vomit can, there is just a funky gray area.  If liquid vomit can be cleaned up and placed outside somewhere or buried, then okay I understand that.... But why not vomit less digested with a piece where the piece could very well be consumed?

Why not just use a small carpet machine on a piece a child spit out and extract the wine/blood from the carpet and water a tree rather than tearing out the carpet?

I merely bring in the poop example because I know that nobody would willingly flush the body of Christ down the toilet.  This is very obvious.  So at some level, wouldn't his presence leave the digested bread and become "in us".  If not then it is very literal that his body & blood are being flushed.

Hence if his body and blood are not flushed shouldn't we know when the body & blood leave the bread that is becoming waste in order to perhaps not go to such extreme levels on accidents?

I know this thread sounds silly in ways, but if you really think about it, it's pretty critical when placed up to other practices.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2014, 01:22:46 AM »
Quote
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11&version=NKJV

This is why we have so much reverence for Holy Communion.  It is also why you should think twice before speaking disrespectfully about it.

Yes.  Exactly.  Fully understand it.  In fact I could expand with quotes from many church saints.

Don't take what I said in disrespect, it is not meant to be.  This is dealing with a reality that I have never seen anybody try to face.  There *ARE* known priests who have consumed the bread out of vomit on the floor.  There *ARE* many known churches that cut out carpet in the event particles of the blood land on it.

This deals with at which point does Christ become "in us" an no longer in the bread?  At what process or time frame?  Obviously the priest who consumed it out of vomit believed he still existed in the bread and took extreme measures - or those who saw a child spit it out believed he was still in the bread/wine and cut out carpet.

If measures can be taken such as this, then at what point to measures stop and he is considered "in us" and not in the bread.   Unfortunately I HAD to go there with the poop in order to complete the thought/question that I have with this.  There must be a moment where he leaves the bread and is simply "in us" or else there is a serious problem.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2014, 01:34:02 AM »
Keep in mind both these threads are dealing with what we do when we actually find it on the ground or witness something happening.  Everyone should understand that, no matter what we do, there is going to be spillage and accidents.  And many times we will not even know that a particle ends up on the ground.  If we are making an honest effort to prevent accidents (or even deliberate abuse) while not putting up obstacles to reception we must have faith that God will understand our human shortcomings.

I want to expand more on this because it was kind of where I was thinking.

Of course accidents happen.  Particles end up in places, etc.   (I would not put deliberate abuse in this because that would be an entire other realm.  At that point it's just insane wrong)

Quote
"faith that God will understand our human shortcomings"....
This is very well said.  Things *DO* happen as I've witnessed.   In the event of dropping and spilling which may be different than what I was talking about, I can see the large steps taken.

What I'm curious about is once placed in the partakers mouth if something less than desirable happens to it shouldn't
Quote
"faith that God will understand our human shortcomings"....
really work out?  I mean I'd understand cleaning it up and not discarding it in the trash.  But perhaps bury it or something for the "gray area".  I guess I'm not understanding the consumption out of vomit and carpet surgery etc. FOR SPIT OUT/Vomited out pieces (already in the digestive process and consumed by the partaker).

IF Christ still is in the bread that is unfortunately vomited out by let's say an ill 5 year old to be consumed, I'm just wondering if Christ always remains in that bread and at which point is it no longer revered as bread through the digestive process.

I do like PtA's simple approach, but it works as half full/half empty.  Spit out stuff counts, vomited counts, but when does it leave the bread?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 01:35:08 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2014, 01:37:05 AM »
Yesh, have you even read what Liza, PeterTheAleut and Salpy have posted? Please do, and seriously consider what they have said, before you post another lurid installment of your latest obsession.  :P  >:(
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 01:38:34 AM by LBK »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2014, 01:55:18 AM »
Unfortunately I HAD to go there with the poop in order to complete the thought/question that I have with this.  There must be a moment where he leaves the bread and is simply "in us" or else there is a serious problem.

Just another one of your fetishes.   ::)

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2014, 08:00:53 AM »
Speculation regarding pooping after consuming the Eucharist.  I think I have seen it all now. 

I think the cathars beat OC.net on this one.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2014, 02:59:18 PM »
i had to look that up.
they were french gnostics in 1200s AD.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2014, 03:25:06 PM »
Keep in mind both these threads are dealing with what we do when we actually find it on the ground or witness something happening.  Everyone should understand that, no matter what we do, there is going to be spillage and accidents.  And many times we will not even know that a particle ends up on the ground.  If we are making an honest effort to prevent accidents (or even deliberate abuse) while not putting up obstacles to reception we must have faith that God will understand our human shortcomings.

I want to expand more on this because it was kind of where I was thinking.

Of course accidents happen.  Particles end up in places, etc.   (I would not put deliberate abuse in this because that would be an entire other realm.  At that point it's just insane wrong)

Quote
"faith that God will understand our human shortcomings"....
This is very well said.  Things *DO* happen as I've witnessed.   In the event of dropping and spilling which may be different than what I was talking about, I can see the large steps taken.

What I'm curious about is once placed in the partakers mouth if something less than desirable happens to it shouldn't
Quote
"faith that God will understand our human shortcomings"....
really work out?  I mean I'd understand cleaning it up and not discarding it in the trash.  But perhaps bury it or something for the "gray area".  I guess I'm not understanding the consumption out of vomit and carpet surgery etc. FOR SPIT OUT/Vomited out pieces (already in the digestive process and consumed by the partaker).

IF Christ still is in the bread that is unfortunately vomited out by let's say an ill 5 year old to be consumed, I'm just wondering if Christ always remains in that bread and at which point is it no longer revered as bread through the digestive process.

I do like PtA's simple approach, but it works as half full/half empty.  Spit out stuff counts, vomited counts, but when does it leave the bread?

Yesh,

Once it is consumed through the mouth as Christ commanded us, what happens after that is based on how we live our lives and what God wants to do with it inside us.  The reason why we take extreme measures to keep it consumed through the mouth and not taken out of that same mouth is out of reverence to Christ.  So so long it stays in the mouth and does not come out of it, it's okay.

For toddlers, I've seen priests dip their finger in the blood and just let the toddler taste it.  No matter how little or how big piece of bread or wine we consume is, we believe we have taken the totality of Christ, humanity and divinity, in us.  We do not concentrate on the physically digestive process.  We "consume" the body and blood of Christ and yet Christ is not "consumed".  That is the mystery of the Eucharist that we believe in.  That's how the Church answered against talks that we engage in cannibalism.  We don't.  The mere act only reflects a very intimate union between us and Christ, a consummation of the wedding of the Church and Christ, not some sort of brunch that we use a fork and knife with. 

To speculate beyond this is missing the point.

Think about the marriage between you and your wife.  You are both one body, one soul, one spirit.  You are no longer two.  So what if she is allergic to shrimp, but you're not.  If you eat the shrimp, will she receive an allergic reaction?  If not, how are you both not two bodies, two souls, and two spirits?  If you tell me that I'm "missing the point" on this one, then you should treat the Eucharist the same way.

God bless.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 03:25:54 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Theophania

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2014, 04:59:05 PM »
Yesh doesn't receive Orthodox communion so I wonder why he's fretting about this.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2014, 05:31:01 PM »
Yesh doesn't receive Orthodox communion so I wonder why he's fretting about this.

Indeed.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2014, 02:10:20 PM »
Yesh doesn't receive Orthodox communion so I wonder why he's fretting about this.
Indeed.

Kelly & LBK...   Faith is a complex and deep thing.  I'm in a position where I'm unearthing everything I can about early Christianity and church practice in order to determine where I plug into things.

This thread is not about my position of faith anyway.  This thread merely expands the concept of the thread I posted in the OP. 

While I know it is easy to point fingers at me and my stance on faith rather than truly addressing the question at hand, the issues do exist.

Beautifully written but rather simplistic answers have been given.  Things such as "eaten and never consumed"... (Salpy's answer)  These are nice things and I understand the Eastern Orthodox theology and understanding of these things.  I do understand the Eastern Orthodox communion and the teachings of the mysteries behind it.

Please don't misunderstand this thread either, it is NOT meant in any form of disrespect, but rather a curiosity.    I'll try to re-write as I seriously don't know if my question was unclear, misunderstood, or simply there is no answer (which I am fine with).

So let me put down some of the things I've witnessed, know of, and heard about.

Of course there are both famous and no so famous instances of the partaking out of the vomit.  (these things happen - people do get sick - especially children not knowing better).   In this case I can only imagine that it was still considered to be the body of Christ.

There are instances as described where a small child spits out the communion (Eucharist/Bread) and the carpet was removed in the even the wine/blood was in the carpet as people would not want to walk on it.  Same for the elderly and simple coordination where a parishoner for whatever reason nearly dropped to a knee as the priest was brining the spoon to his mouth....  (Things simply happen)

So it puts things into a quagmire for me because I do not understand at what point the Eucharist in the bread become "in you and you in him".

Okay, I admit digestion is kind of gross, but we have to "go there" to understand exactly "why" somebody would consume out of vomit.   Why would vomit where you can "see the bread" be any different than vomit that is later digested.   At what point do we just "let it go" or is it considered "in you" or "absorbed"?

See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   IF the communion bread no longer could be recognized in the vomit (like a child playing after church 1.5 hours after communion throws up), it is obviously in his system but digested.  Is it "absorbed now" or "in him" where there is no longer the concern about the body & blood of Christ being on the floor?   As it moves through the digestive system - I'm sorry - bread really seriously does become poop.  It moves through your system.  It of course MUST be absorbed at that point or else it is pretty heavy disrespect how 99.9% of us dispose of it.  (Which of course I've never heard of any Christian church worrying about that part).

Basically I'm just wondering at what point is he "absorbed in you and you in him" and you don't worry about taking such measures?

Like the toddler who spits it out 20 seconds later who KNOWS no better.  Is Christ now in him/her and we should not be concerned about the bread on the ground or carpet underneath?  OR 20 minutes later the toddler throws up and small pieces of the bread can be seen is this to be consumed?  OR 1.5 hours later the toddler throws up liquid (sorry I know this is gross) but should precautions be taken?   OR 5 hours later the toddler needs to go #2 is it then absorbed or should measures be taken?

At some point Christ is "in us" and the Eucharist must become "bread again and simply digested", or else we are flushing the body of Christ.   No EO Christian would ever do such a thing (nor any other who believes in the body/blood in the communion).

This is a very tough but logical question and again PLEASE understand, no disrespect implied, in fact, respect implied.  It's completely about respecting the body & blood of Christ.   I've never really heard of a church teaching on when he is in us and we in him.   If the piece in vomit is still him to be consumed, or the piece on the floor (after being in one's mouth), then it is important to understand at what point he is in us.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2014, 02:30:57 PM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2014, 02:45:40 PM »
This is a very tough but logical question and again PLEASE understand, no disrespect implied, in fact, respect implied.  It's completely about respecting the body & blood of Christ.   I've never really heard of a church teaching on when he is in us and we in him.   If the piece in vomit is still him to be consumed, or the piece on the floor (after being in one's mouth), then it is important to understand at what point he is in us.
You ask an interesting question, yesh, but this is not a question limited to the Eucharist. Rather, it is an a paradox that has been argued by philosophers since the time of ancient Greece.  It is called Sorites paradox. We know when the Holy Mystery is not in us (before we partake) and we know when it is in us (after it has been consumed), but the transitional period can not necessarily be defined as "in vs not in" us. It is not for us to be able to conclusively nail down when it is "in" as opposed to "not in" us, just like if we believe that we have lost our wedding band in a tub of mud, we will preserve the entire tub so as not to lose the item that is precious to us. Likewise, if it is possible that something contains the very Body and Blood of Christ (in your example, the vomit), we will preserve it so as not to lose that which is precious.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2014, 03:00:01 PM »
At what point Yesh, did you and your wife become one body, one soul, one spirit in matrimony?  When did that actually happen?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2014, 03:00:18 PM »


Kelly & LBK...   Faith is a complex and deep thing.  I'm in a position where I'm unearthing everything I can about early Christianity and church practice in order to determine where I plug into things.

There is only one 'socket' to plug into in early Christianity.  So this -where- business...when you do already know -where-, is a bit disingenuous sounding.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2014, 03:20:18 PM »
Yesh doesn't receive Orthodox communion so I wonder why he's fretting about this.
Indeed.

Kelly & LBK...   Faith is a complex and deep thing.  I'm in a position where I'm unearthing everything I can about early Christianity and church practice in order to determine where I plug into things.

This thread is not about my position of faith anyway.  This thread merely expands the concept of the thread I posted in the OP. 

While I know it is easy to point fingers at me and my stance on faith rather than truly addressing the question at hand, the issues do exist.

Beautifully written but rather simplistic answers have been given.  Things such as "eaten and never consumed"... (Salpy's answer)  These are nice things and I understand the Eastern Orthodox theology and understanding of these things.  I do understand the Eastern Orthodox communion and the teachings of the mysteries behind it.

Please don't misunderstand this thread either, it is NOT meant in any form of disrespect, but rather a curiosity.    I'll try to re-write as I seriously don't know if my question was unclear, misunderstood, or simply there is no answer (which I am fine with).

So let me put down some of the things I've witnessed, know of, and heard about.

Of course there are both famous and no so famous instances of the partaking out of the vomit.  (these things happen - people do get sick - especially children not knowing better).   In this case I can only imagine that it was still considered to be the body of Christ.

There are instances as described where a small child spits out the communion (Eucharist/Bread) and the carpet was removed in the even the wine/blood was in the carpet as people would not want to walk on it.  Same for the elderly and simple coordination where a parishoner for whatever reason nearly dropped to a knee as the priest was brining the spoon to his mouth....  (Things simply happen)

So it puts things into a quagmire for me because I do not understand at what point the Eucharist in the bread become "in you and you in him".

Okay, I admit digestion is kind of gross, but we have to "go there" to understand exactly "why" somebody would consume out of vomit.   Why would vomit where you can "see the bread" be any different than vomit that is later digested.   At what point do we just "let it go" or is it considered "in you" or "absorbed"?

See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   IF the communion bread no longer could be recognized in the vomit (like a child playing after church 1.5 hours after communion throws up), it is obviously in his system but digested.  Is it "absorbed now" or "in him" where there is no longer the concern about the body & blood of Christ being on the floor?   As it moves through the digestive system - I'm sorry - bread really seriously does become poop.
No, bread does not become poop. Or were you not taught properly how the human body digests food? During the digestion process, the small intestine extracts from the food all the nutrients the body needs to function and absorbs those nutrients into the bloodstream for distribution throughout the entire body. Only what's left of the food after the body takes from it what is needed becomes poop. Poop is merely the waste material produced by the body's digestion process. If, then, the human body consumes ALL of the Body and Blood of Christ and absorbs ALL of it into the bloodstream, wasting none of it, then NONE of the Body and Blood becomes poop.

It moves through your system.  It of course MUST be absorbed at that point or else it is pretty heavy disrespect how 99.9% of us dispose of it.  (Which of course I've never heard of any Christian church worrying about that part).

Basically I'm just wondering at what point is he "absorbed in you and you in him" and you don't worry about taking such measures?

Like the toddler who spits it out 20 seconds later who KNOWS no better.  Is Christ now in him/her and we should not be concerned about the bread on the ground or carpet underneath?  OR 20 minutes later the toddler throws up and small pieces of the bread can be seen is this to be consumed?  OR 1.5 hours later the toddler throws up liquid (sorry I know this is gross) but should precautions be taken?   OR 5 hours later the toddler needs to go #2 is it then absorbed or should measures be taken?

At some point Christ is "in us" and the Eucharist must become "bread again and simply digested", or else we are flushing the body of Christ.   No EO Christian would ever do such a thing (nor any other who believes in the body/blood in the communion).
No, it is the Body and Blood of Christ that is digested, not mere bread and wine.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2014, 03:34:25 PM »
I was reading this thread - http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,62021.msg1114584/boardseen.html#new

To give summary, it's one of those tragic moments in the EO church when communion ends up in less than ideal conditions.  I remember back in the day things such as 2 year old spitting it out, elderly trouble, and 1 simple and plain "missed connection" where the parishoner simply moved "fast" and the spoon hit his bottom lip and it fell (in the cloth).

I totally understand the EO viewpoint on communion being the actual body & blood of Christ and understand exactly the way it is revered.

So at this point I have to say that I totally do not mean ANY disrespect whatsoever.  But some of the practices do not make any sense to me.

1)  I have often bled on the pasture that we have.  Once a barbed wire fence that I was working on got snagged in a tractor's post hole digger about 100 yards away (we were putting up fence and it was drilling new fence post holes).   The wire wrapped around the "corkscrew" and pulled hard and fast.  Needless to say, I was gripping the barbed wire when suddenly it was "JOLTED".  Right through my leather gloves came HORRIBLE pain because the barb was ripped right across both palms - and deeply.   Blood went EVERYWHERE, when I pulled off the gloves.  Pulsing out.  It looked like a bad horror movie.   What seemed like cupfuls pooled on the ground until I could get my shirt off and clasped my hands on my shirt to put pressure on the wound.   Today though, though my blood is in the soil, I simply don't care if a cow poops, pees, or eats grass off it.   I would have been kind of weirded out I suppose if a dog licked up the fresh blood.  So it kind of confuses me that Jesus Christ would be concerned if his blood was spilled on accident (pure accident) without bad intent and he cared about it.   I'm sure many times as a carpenter he sliced and diced himself and people didn't come running scooping up the sawdust and dirt he bled on.  It just doesn't make sense to me to go through all the process such as cutting out carpets and all the like.  Why not just rug doctor it up and pour it on some plants?   It seems borderline idolatry in ways.

2)  Again, no disrespect - seriously.   On the farm and with my own life experience and having children, I can assure everybody that what we eat BECOMES poop.   If we eat the flesh and blood of Jesus, eventually it WILL become poop and be flushed into the nastiest sewage system (or septic) and combined with all types of other poop, pee, toilet paper, shower water, and who knows what else.   It is so nasty, that unlike garbage that we store for a once a week pickup, that we want it "out of there" and gone immediately.  So what exact point of the digestive system is communion no longer consecrated or the bread that is now poop no longer considered the body of Christ?    Yes, this IS a serious question that I believe many avoid because they don't want to "go there".  It is a reality.  If we are to go so far as to ensure that communion is never thrown into the trash or discarded in a disrespectful manner, the reality is that we flush it down a sewer UNLESS it is no longer considered the body & blood of Christ in digested form.  Does Christ ever leave the bread in the digestive track?     This is why also the final comment I made on my last question/statement applies again.  It feels like irony to go to "bizarre" or my opinionated  thought that it may be taken to fanatical/idolatry types of lengths to preserve the consecrated gift (with that attitude/belief) yet go home after a fellowship meal and well... you know.  Flush.

3. The gifts were originally given to the apostles at the last supper (passover meal).  In that setting were they going goofy over every little crumb that may have been missed?  I think we all know the reality is that crumbs we can't even see get away from us.  The same applies to communion.  Crumbs get away.  Why is it that only the ones we see get attention?

4. The blood of Christ inevitably would end up in the sinuses.  It's a reality on anything we drink.  Slight parts end up in the nasal and sinus passages.  Yes, this means if you blow your nose (within a certain time frame) or sneeze, part of the blood of Christ will come out.   Are we to capture the sneeze somehow?  Then why cut out carpet where something was accidently dropped?  It seems a double standard.


These EO practices mentioned in the original thread I posted, I understand them.  But it seems to be a double standard of fanaticism and practicality.   There are even priests who will eat the Eucharist out of vomit.... If they'll do this, why not eat it out of poop or lick a tissue?  It's really not that much grosser in the context of things.

I totally respect the Eucharist, but it seems there is a huge double standard in practical measure.  It's almost like "if it resembles the Eucharist in any way then we have to deal with it".   Why isn't as simple as full intent, or "it went in the toddler's mouth and that's what matters", or "the old man ate the body and blood of Christ and it dabbled out of his disabled mouth".... "It fell on the carpet, pick it up, clean the spot, etc.".   The lengths I've seen people go to, yet they won't deal with the reality that communion is in the sinuses, becomes poop, becomes pee, and the like is baffling.

It almost seems as if a fanatical show or undertaking can be "seen" then we should deal with it.  But the unseen we want to ignore and call it a mystery.   IE -  If it was just barfed up and the piece can be searched for, a priest very well may consume it.  If it was digested, he won't gather up the barf and drink it KNOWING it was in there....

So to summarize, isn't there a moment where the bread ceases to be the body and blood of Christ all in the digestive process (from the initial placing in the mouth to pooping it out)? 

Isn't the bread that a 2 year old who takes the communion chews it up, and spits part of it on the floor (being a child not knowing better), no longer "the body of Christ", but rather we can accept that Christ is now in him and not in the bread?

This is one of those threads where I get concerned the EO church puts the almighty God who formed the entire universe - where the Cherubim and Seraphim sing praises to him - yet this is a tiny box he's placed in through fanatical or idolatry types of belief. (or for show?)   Isn't he bigger than a 2 year old who doesn't even know what he's doing who spits out a tiny part? 

Is that all food does, become poop?
Seems to for our 3 month old son.  ;D

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Andrew
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2014, 05:28:19 PM »
My guess is that the Presence dissipates over time.  As to how much is that time I cant tell, but the presence doesn't last forever in you.
Anyway, I think we are trying to dissect this too much and we are not concentrating on the fact that: We do receive the Body and Blood of Christ at Communion, and that we are fulfilling the need to do this in Remembrance of Him.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 05:30:06 PM by JoeS2 »

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2014, 05:38:49 PM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


The perfect answer.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2014, 11:55:11 PM »
This is a very tough but logical question and again PLEASE understand, no disrespect implied, in fact, respect implied.  It's completely about respecting the body & blood of Christ.   I've never really heard of a church teaching on when he is in us and we in him.   If the piece in vomit is still him to be consumed, or the piece on the floor (after being in one's mouth), then it is important to understand at what point he is in us.
You ask an interesting question, yesh, but this is not a question limited to the Eucharist. Rather, it is an a paradox that has been argued by philosophers since the time of ancient Greece.  It is called Sorites paradox. We know when the Holy Mystery is not in us (before we partake) and we know when it is in us (after it has been consumed), but the transitional period can not necessarily be defined as "in vs not in" us. It is not for us to be able to conclusively nail down when it is "in" as opposed to "not in" us, just like if we believe that we have lost our wedding band in a tub of mud, we will preserve the entire tub so as not to lose the item that is precious to us. Likewise, if it is possible that something contains the very Body and Blood of Christ (in your example, the vomit), we will preserve it so as not to lose that which is precious.

Thank you for the mature and good response.  I'll look into the Sorites paradox some.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2014, 11:56:29 PM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.  

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


The perfect answer.

Honestly it was just an immature response.  Look at the response just above from TheTrisagion.   Communication without attack and sticking to the issue at hand, rather than side-swiping and fight picking.  I appreciate mature responses.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 11:57:56 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2014, 11:58:37 PM »
Maybe because the question was immature.

someones kids ask about it becoming poop....

not a grown person.


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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2014, 11:59:48 PM »
At what point Yesh, did you and your wife become one body, one soul, one spirit in matrimony?  When did that actually happen?

There is not a defined moment, but somewhere during the ceremony and our agreement to be husband and wife.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:00:27 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2014, 12:01:04 AM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.  

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


The perfect answer.

Honestly it was just an immature response.  Look at the response just above from TheTrisagion.   Communication without attack and sticking to the issue at hand, rather than side-swiping and fight picking.  I appreciate mature responses.

Immature? Hardly. The response zeroes in on all that is wrong with your views on the matter.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2014, 12:02:22 AM »
Maybe because the question was immature.

someones kids ask about it becoming poop....

not a grown person.

DeniseDenise, stick to the thread.  It was an immature response.  Oddly many other people who typically discuss things in maturity understood the question.  Others pick fights.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2014, 12:03:40 AM »
So basically...the thread is this.

you are worrying about the longevity of the Body and Blood, of a communion that you chose to no longer partake of, because ....


you are worried about us?

you are worried you made a mistake?


what?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2014, 12:04:27 AM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.  

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


The perfect answer.

Honestly it was just an immature response.  Look at the response just above from TheTrisagion.   Communication without attack and sticking to the issue at hand, rather than side-swiping and fight picking.  I appreciate mature responses.

Immature? Hardly. The response zeroes in on all that is wrong with your views on the matter.

I completely understand it and said it in the context that I understand it.  Mor simply devalued what I said and credited towards lack of knowledge.

I perfectly understand why they'd cut out the carpet, etc., because the EO believes that way.  The thread is in the direction "at what point do you stop cutting out the carpet".
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2014, 12:05:32 AM »
At what point Yesh, did you and your wife become one body, one soul, one spirit in matrimony?  When did that actually happen?

There is not a defined moment, but somewhere during the ceremony and our agreement to be husband and wife.
Okay good...let me take this "not a defined moment" part and expand on it.  At one point does the body and blood of Christ become one body, one soul, and one spirit in you?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2014, 12:06:28 AM »
So basically...the thread is this.

you are worrying about the longevity of the Body and Blood, of a communion that you chose to no longer partake of, because ....


you are worried about us?

you are worried you made a mistake?


what?
Denise, like Mor has done, you are more interested in attacking me.

Do me a favor, plz stay off my threads.  All you do is fight.  It's pointless.  It's the internet.  It's a forum.  Let the grown ups talk about logical theology and come to a ground of understanding (if possible).  I'm asking in light of education on the matter, and you attack me for it.

If you'd like to discuss in maturity, I'd appreciate it.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:13:54 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2014, 12:08:55 AM »
At what point Yesh, did you and your wife become one body, one soul, one spirit in matrimony?  When did that actually happen?

There is not a defined moment, but somewhere during the ceremony and our agreement to be husband and wife.
Okay good...let me take this "not a defined moment" part and expand on it.  At one point does the body and blood of Christ become one body, one soul, and one spirit in you?

That's what I'm asking. :)  I mean if it's not defined I can accept that -  I'm just wondering "at what point" would one stop treating it as the body and blood or if anything is spelled out/written on the matter?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:14:20 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2014, 12:20:56 AM »
At what point Yesh, did you and your wife become one body, one soul, one spirit in matrimony?  When did that actually happen?

There is not a defined moment, but somewhere during the ceremony and our agreement to be husband and wife.
Okay good...let me take this "not a defined moment" part and expand on it.  At one point does the body and blood of Christ become one body, one soul, and one spirit in you?

That's what I'm asking. :)  I mean if it's not defined I can accept that -  I'm just wondering "at what point" would one stop treating it as the body and blood or if anything is spelled out/written on the matter?

You never stop treating it as body and blood.  Once it's in the mouth, and taken, now you become one with Christ.  No one really thinks about what happens after that.  The "digestive" process is how you behave in life.  We think of the spiritual effects of the Eucharist, not the physical or digestive effects.  That is why the question seems misplaced a bit because once we think in that terms, we feel there is no need to ask the poop question.  Remember earlier I wrote, the fact that you and your wife are one flesh, one soul, one spirit does not mean you're going to give her an anaphylactic shock if you eat something she's dangerously allergic to.  This is a spiritual reality, and should be treated as such.  But you can reverence your unity with her by avoiding eating those foods for her, maybe.  In that case, you are practicing reverence to that unity you have with her.

That's pretty much the best analogy I can think of.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:22:05 AM by minasoliman »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2014, 12:28:22 AM »
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Let the grown ups talk about logical theology

God is not limited by the finite human mind.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2014, 12:32:11 AM »

That's what I'm asking. :)  I mean if it's not defined I can accept that -  I'm just wondering "at what point" would one stop treating it as the body and blood or if anything is spelled out/written on the matter?

When does God stop being God?
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2014, 12:40:57 AM »
This whole discussion just seems like an example of overthinking things. That sort of thing went on a lot during the Scholastic era, with theologians saying stuff like "because God can do anything, that means He could have become incarnate as a donkey or a carrot if he wanted".
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 12:41:17 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2014, 03:01:26 AM »
Even if the bread and wine becomes faeces, urine, and semen, what does it matter? Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2014, 06:49:38 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2014, 06:06:21 PM »
Maybe because the question was immature.

someones kids ask about it becoming poop....

not a grown person.

DeniseDenise, stick to the thread.  It was an immature response.  Oddly many other people who typically discuss things in maturity understood the question.  Others pick fights.
Is the problem, though, with the person you think is picking fights or with you for engaging him as if he's picking fights?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2014, 06:11:44 PM »
So basically...the thread is this.

you are worrying about the longevity of the Body and Blood, of a communion that you chose to no longer partake of, because ....


you are worried about us?

you are worried you made a mistake?


what?
Denise, like Mor has done, you are more interested in attacking me.

Do me a favor, plz stay off my threads.
FWIW, Yesh, these are not your threads. Once you submit them to this forum, they become the forum's threads and are therefore open to discussion, any discussion that complies with the rules of this forum. If you don't like that, then you have every freedom to not start new threads. You don't have to try to control "your" threads to make sure the discussion is favorable to your point of view.

All you do is fight.
And you don't?

It's pointless.  It's the internet.  It's a forum.
Yes, it is. It's a forum for open discussion, even for criticism of your point of view.

Let the grown ups talk about logical theology and come to a ground of understanding (if possible).
I find that quite insulting that you would call Denise, one of the members of our forum community, a child. I think you owe her an apology.

I'm asking in light of education on the matter, and you attack me for it.
No one's attacking you, Yesh. IMO, you're just being needlessly defensive.

If you'd like to discuss in maturity, I'd appreciate it.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2014, 06:24:41 PM »
an honest answer, at least the way I see it(I dont know how this is viewed within Orthodoxy, but something i believe i read as a RC)

Once it loses the form of bread and wine beyound a dought(I wouldnt include vomit because of liquid), then it no longer the Body and Blood

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2014, 07:51:10 PM »
See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.  

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


The perfect answer.

Honestly it was just an immature response.  Look at the response just above from TheTrisagion.   Communication without attack and sticking to the issue at hand, rather than side-swiping and fight picking.  I appreciate mature responses.

YiM,

My post wasn't an attack.  You claim to completely understand the Orthodox position, and then you go on to introduce doubt by introducing "IF".  We have no doubt about the Eucharist.  There is no "IF" for us.  If there is an "IF" for you, then either you disagree with our belief (which is fine, it wouldn't be the first time) or you misunderstand our belief.  But for us, there is no "IF".  That's why I didn't address the other issues you raised in your posts.  There's no point if we don't have a solid foundation on which to build.   

I am suspicious of your intentions in this thread.  I thought you were just asking questions based on some YiMmy presuppositions (in other words, business as usual), but in your own posts after the one quoted above, I get the sense that you are actually trying to ridicule our beliefs, and if that's how it is, again, I don't see a point in throwing pearls before swine.   
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2014, 03:06:03 AM »
Quote
Let the grown ups talk about logical theology

God is not limited by the finite human mind.

Uhhhh, rather than the appropriate zinger here, how do you understand God then?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2014, 03:10:47 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(

I find people who react in a manner completely outside of the manner of Christ to be the greater problem.

Christ survived crucifixion and death, he'll manage yesh's possibly sincere questions. LBK, speak to a priest who models his life after Christ's.


Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2014, 03:24:02 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
He's not Orthodox. Why should he be limited by your standards of offense and blasphemy?
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Offline LBK

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2014, 05:36:28 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
He's not Orthodox. Why should he be limited by your standards of offense and blasphemy?

My standards?

Peter, it would be instructive if you ran Yesh's musings on the Eucharist, complete with poop references, past your priest, your Godparent(s), and any other Orthodox person you know and hold in high regard.

Then, you can post on what they have to say.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2014, 07:24:09 AM »

I find people who react in a manner completely outside of the manner of Christ to be the greater problem.


Physician, heal thyself.  ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2014, 09:19:07 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
He's not Orthodox. Why should he be limited by your standards of offense and blasphemy?

My standards?

Peter, it would be instructive if you ran Yesh's musings on the Eucharist, complete with poop references, past your priest, your Godparent(s), and any other Orthodox person you know and hold in high regard.

Then, you can post on what they have to say.
They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards. They would also say that you're far too easily scandalized.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2014, 09:23:08 AM »

I find people who react in a manner completely outside of the manner of Christ to be the greater problem.


Physician, heal thyself.  ::)
Just because he can be quite often hypocritical doesn't mean he's always wrong.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2014, 09:23:42 AM »
Peter, you are again presuming to tell me what to post. I am just as entitled as anyone here to express myself. Others have posted in similar vein to me, yet you have yet again singled me out for particular scrutiny, while leaving everyone else alone.  >:(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2014, 09:28:56 AM »
Peter, you are again presuming to tell me what to post.
Physician, heal thyself. ::)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:06:42 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2014, 09:51:07 AM »
Peter, you are again presuming to tell me what to post.
Physician, heal thyself.

These people have posted positions and views compatible with mine:

I revere the Body and Blood of the crucified and risen Christ far more than my own since He is God and I am not.

Speculation regarding pooping after consuming the Eucharist.  I think I have seen it all now.  No wonder Protestants want to just call it quits at 'metaphorical'.

Quote
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11&version=NKJV

This is why we have so much reverence for Holy Communion.  It is also why you should think twice before speaking disrespectfully about it.

See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


Go after them as well, Peter, if you're going to be consistent.  >:(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2014, 10:07:03 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
He's not Orthodox. Why should he be limited by your standards of offense and blasphemy?

My standards?

Peter, it would be instructive if you ran Yesh's musings on the Eucharist, complete with poop references, past your priest, your Godparent(s), and any other Orthodox person you know and hold in high regard.

Then, you can post on what they have to say.
They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards. They would also say that you're far too easily scandalized.

Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.

It doesn't matter what Yesh's Faith is, or is not....WE are Orthodox, this is an Orthodox site, and supporting any teaching outside of what the Church teaches is scandalous.

There is a sin of omission...which constitutes the missed opportunity of doing good, helping someone, making a positive change....of passing up the chance to better the life of someone else.   Not correcting a grievous error of someone's...especially when it concerns their salvation, is such a sin.
Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2014, 10:12:12 AM »
Peter, you are again presuming to tell me what to post.
Physician, heal thyself.

These people have posted positions and views compatible with mine:

I revere the Body and Blood of the crucified and risen Christ far more than my own since He is God and I am not.

Speculation regarding pooping after consuming the Eucharist.  I think I have seen it all now.  No wonder Protestants want to just call it quits at 'metaphorical'.

Quote
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11&version=NKJV

This is why we have so much reverence for Holy Communion.  It is also why you should think twice before speaking disrespectfully about it.

See one can argue that consuming out of vomit is fanatical, but IF it is still the body of Christ, it is understandable.  Cutting the carpet could be argued as fanatical, but IF it is still the blood of Christ, it is understandable.   

No matter how much you insist that you understand the Orthodox belief, IF you can say IF, as IF that IF was part of our faith, you do not understand the first thing about our belief.


Go after them as well, Peter, if you're going to be consistent.  >:(
None of these quotes ever used the terms "blasphemy" and "offensive" as you have, so no, no one else posted in the same vain as you.

I also directed only one post to you before your reply. You engaged it, thus opening the door for more of this stuff you call scrutiny.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2014, 10:22:32 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(
He's not Orthodox. Why should he be limited by your standards of offense and blasphemy?

My standards?

Peter, it would be instructive if you ran Yesh's musings on the Eucharist, complete with poop references, past your priest, your Godparent(s), and any other Orthodox person you know and hold in high regard.

Then, you can post on what they have to say.
They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards. They would also say that you're far too easily scandalized.

Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.
No, Liza, quite often we should not. God is quite capable of defending Himself. He doesn't need us to defend Him in our own insecurity about what we believe.

It doesn't matter what Yesh's Faith is, or is not....WE are Orthodox, this is an Orthodox site, and supporting any teaching outside of what the Church teaches is scandalous.
Who of us Orthodox is on this thread supporting a teaching outside of what the Church teaches? Yesh is asking questions. I agree that some of his questions are rather crass, that they make assumptions of our faith that are better off not made, that they penetrate too deeply into mysteries that should be left alone and revered. But he is asking questions. Rather than try and shut him up by calling his questions blasphemous and offensive, I think we owe it to him to at least attempt to answer his questions.

There is a sin of omission...which constitutes the missed opportunity of doing good, helping someone, making a positive change....of passing up the chance to better the life of someone else.   Not correcting a grievous error of someone's...especially when it concerns their salvation, is such a sin.
Who here is not attempting to correct Yesh's errors? One can do that without taking such offense at his questions as LBK has shown here.

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?
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Offline LBK

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2014, 10:34:29 AM »
Quote
One can do that without taking such offense at his questions as LBK has shown here.

Peter, I have every right to be offended by graphic speculation by someone who regularly attacks Orthodox belief and practice that the body and blood of Christ our God could find its way into excrement. Your approval or otherwise is irrelevant.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:35:19 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2014, 10:36:56 AM »

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?

I believe you are....


They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards.


LBK is not upholding her standards, but, the those of Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:37:27 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2014, 10:41:29 AM »
Quote
One can do that without taking such offense at his questions as LBK has shown here.

Peter, I have every right to be offended by graphic speculation by someone who regularly attacks Orthodox belief and practice that the body and blood of Christ our God could find its way into excrement. Your approval or otherwise is irrelevant.


I've never denied you that right, LBK. If we're going to talk about rights, though, let me reiterate that I have every right to voice my disagreement with your tactic of calling Yesh's line of questioning blasphemous and offensive, and Yesh has every right to ask those questions you call blasphemous and offensive.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2014, 10:43:04 AM »
Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.
No, Liza, quite often we should not. God is quite capable of defending Himself. He doesn't need us to defend Him in our own insecurity about what we believe.

This is all too often a stupid argument.  God doesn't need us, at all....for anything.  He doesn't need us to worship Him, pray to Him, ask Him for help.  He doesn't need us eating His Body and Blood.  In fact, He doesn't need us to even exist.

In that vein, if that "God doesn't need us to defend Him."  ...then why does the priest filter to whom he gives the Eucharist?  Why don't we commune everyone?  After all, God doesn't need us to protect Him, nor His Gifts to us.

Why do we argue who is canonical and not?  At the root of this, is our belief of what is proper and respectful in the understanding and teachings concerning God.  If we don't need to "defend" Him....then why do we bother separating ourselves from each other for little misunderstandings as to the nature of Christ, the legitimacy of the pope, etc?

Why do we have so many martyrs?  They could have denied God...but, no....they defended Him and His legitimate power over His creation.

You are wrong.  We do need to defend God.  
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2014, 10:43:37 AM »

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?

I believe you are....


They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards.


LBK is not upholding her standards, but, the those of Orthodoxy.

No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2014, 10:50:37 AM »
Quote
No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.

Sorry, Peter, I will not change my position on what I have expressed on the thread topic. You'll just have to deal with it.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2014, 10:54:36 AM »
Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.
No, Liza, quite often we should not. God is quite capable of defending Himself. He doesn't need us to defend Him in our own insecurity about what we believe.

This is all too often a stupid argument.  God doesn't need us, at all....for anything.  He doesn't need us to worship Him, pray to Him, ask Him for help.  He doesn't need us eating His Body and Blood.  In fact, He doesn't need us to even exist.

In that vein, if that "God doesn't need us to defend Him."  ...then why does the priest filter to whom he gives the Eucharist?  Why don't we commune everyone?  After all, God doesn't need us to protect Him, nor His Gifts to us.

Why do we argue who is canonical and not?  At the root of this, is our belief of what is proper and respectful in the understanding and teachings concerning God.  If we don't need to "defend" Him....then why do we bother separating ourselves from each other for little misunderstandings as to the nature of Christ, the legitimacy of the pope, etc?

Why do we have so many martyrs?  They could have denied God...but, no....they defended Him and His legitimate power over His creation.

You are wrong.  We do need to defend God.  

No, Liza, you are twisting my words around. I did not say that we don't need to defend God. I said only that God does not need us to defend Him out of an insecurity about what we believe. I see a few of us getting needlessly defensive of what we mistakenly think is Orthodox, such that I have to think that the defensive posture is motivated by personal insecurity and not by a genuine desire to protect the holy. I don't see anything genuinely threatening in Yesh's questions, so I see no need to confront Yesh's questions as if they pose a direct, frontal attack on our faith. Criticisms that call one's questions blasphemous and offensive usually have the intended consequence of shutting up the questioner. But why is such a tactic necessary in this discussion? Do you feel that your faith is so threatened by Yesh's questions that you need to defend those who would try to shut him up? If so, then how strong is your faith that you feel it so easily threatened?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:58:44 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2014, 10:56:43 AM »
Quote
No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.

Sorry, Peter, I will not change my position on what I have expressed on the thread topic. You'll just have to deal with it.
Sorry, LBK, I will not change my position on what I have expressed on the subject of your criticisms. You'll just have to deal with it, as well.
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Offline LBK

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2014, 10:57:14 AM »
Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.
No, Liza, quite often we should not. God is quite capable of defending Himself. He doesn't need us to defend Him in our own insecurity about what we believe.

This is all too often a stupid argument.  God doesn't need us, at all....for anything.  He doesn't need us to worship Him, pray to Him, ask Him for help.  He doesn't need us eating His Body and Blood.  In fact, He doesn't need us to even exist.

In that vein, if that "God doesn't need us to defend Him."  ...then why does the priest filter to whom he gives the Eucharist?  Why don't we commune everyone?  After all, God doesn't need us to protect Him, nor His Gifts to us.

Why do we argue who is canonical and not?  At the root of this, is our belief of what is proper and respectful in the understanding and teachings concerning God.  If we don't need to "defend" Him....then why do we bother separating ourselves from each other for little misunderstandings as to the nature of Christ, the legitimacy of the pope, etc?

Why do we have so many martyrs?  They could have denied God...but, no....they defended Him and His legitimate power over His creation.

You are wrong.  We do need to defend God.  

No, Liza, you are twisting my words around. I did not say that we don't need to defend God. I said only that God does not need us to defend Him out of an insecurity about what we believe. I see a few of us getting needlessly defensive of what we mistakenly think is Orthodox, such that I have to think that the defensive posture is motivated by personal insecurity and not by a genuine desire to protect the holy. I don't see anything genuinely threatening in Yesh's questions, so I see no need to confront Yesh's questions as if they pose a direct, frontal attack on our faith. Criticisms that call one's questions blasphemous and offensive usually have the intended consequence of shutting up the questioner. But why is such a tactic necessary in this discussion? Do you feel that your faith is so threatened by Yesh's questions that you need to try to shut him up? If so, then how strong is your faith that you feel it so easily threatened?

I look forward to Liza's answer to this, but my answer to the above is:

Is nothing sacred?


And I have no insecurity of faith regarding the Eucharist.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:58:06 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2014, 10:58:29 AM »

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?

I believe you are....


They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards.


LBK is not upholding her standards, but, the those of Orthodoxy.

No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.

PTA, would you be so kind as to list out exactly which of LBK's statements represents "her" standard, versus the Church's standard, concerning the Eucharist?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2014, 11:01:42 AM »
Getting back on topic here, I don't know if this would be considered inappropriate to say, but while we look at food as being nourishing to the body, so does the byproduct of food (fecal matter) expel toxins from the body.  Would it be offensive to say that the Eucharist both indwells us with Christ and expels the sinful toxins from our body?  Or is that just stretching the analogy to an extent that it should not be stretched?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2014, 11:03:45 AM »

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?

I believe you are....


They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards.


LBK is not upholding her standards, but, the those of Orthodoxy.

No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.

PTA, would you be so kind as to list out exactly which of LBK's statements represents "her" standard, versus the Church's standard, concerning the Eucharist?
Liza, would you be so kind as to explain exactly how Yesh's questions meet the Church's standards of blasphemy and offense? Would you be so kind as to explain exactly how LBK is defending the Orthodox faith and not just showing her petty insecurities by calling Yesh's questions blasphemous and offensive?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2014, 11:06:56 AM »

Do it nicely, politely, with love, and not condemnation of the individual, but, do it to assist them in their salvation.
And who here is not doing that, Liza?

I believe you are....


They would say that he's not Orthodox, so he shouldn't be held to your standards.


LBK is not upholding her standards, but, the those of Orthodoxy.

No, LBK is upholding her own standards. The fact that you agree with her and the fact that you think all your opinions representative of the Orthodox faith does not change that.

PTA, would you be so kind as to list out exactly which of LBK's statements represents "her" standard, versus the Church's standard, concerning the Eucharist?
Liza, would you be so kind as to explain exactly how Yesh's questions meet the Church's standards of blasphemy and offense? Would you be so kind as to explain exactly how LBK is defending the Orthodox faith and not just showing her petty insecurities by calling Yesh's questions blasphemous and offensive?

Please give Liza the courtesy of answering her question, Peter.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 11:07:12 AM by LBK »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2014, 11:08:04 AM »
The back and forth is rather unbecoming of all involved parties.  >:(
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2014, 11:41:57 AM »
This is quite a delightfully absurd thread, mostly on OP's part about the Eucharistic Elements. I don't like to get deep when it comes to the Eucharist but I guess I couldn't help it but to answer the OP,

1) Perhaps one would not bother to care about what happens to the blood from the self(body) that was spilled unto the ground or soil. Any creature can do whatever it pleases to it. We can agree that if I bled at a particular spot I couldn't care less as to what would happen to that droplets of blood. However things get different when we are talking about the Eucharist. It is not ordinary Human Blood and Flesh we are talking about here. It is the Blood and Flesh of the Risen Christ Himself, that which is of God. It is disrespectful to simply shrug this Blood and Flesh offered for our Salvation and Spiritual Nourishment off as to be treated lightly as ordinary blood and flesh.

2)Everything we eat becomes poop but the poop itself is not that which was consumed. So, the Eucharistic Elements consumed will not be the poop that will be excreted from the body.

3) and 4) Crumbs get away but need it matter? Those crumbs will nourish the innumerable microorganisms floating around everywhere and I think that's not a bad thing.

Quote
So to summarize, isn't there a moment where the bread ceases to be the body and blood of Christ all in the digestive process (from the initial placing in the mouth to pooping it out)?  

Nobody knows during which moment of the Divine Liturgy the Bread and Wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ so we wouldn't bother with this as well.

Quote
Isn't the bread that a 2 year old who takes the communion chews it up, and spits part of it on the floor (being a child not knowing better), no longer "the body of Christ", but rather we can accept that Christ is now in him and not in the bread?

Well, getting into the Specifics, since the child would've consumed some of the elements anyways, Christ is also in him/her. However the Body and Blood thrown up is not digested at all and is not poop so, it is still the Body and Blood of Christ. Relating to 1), we treat the Body and Blood with outmost reverence so it must be treated with respect in its regurgitated form as well. The Body and Blood of Christ doesn't revert back to Bread and Wine.

Quote
This is one of those threads where I get concerned the EO church puts the almighty God who formed the entire universe - where the Cherubim and Seraphim sing praises to him - yet this is a tiny box he's placed in through fanatical or idolatry types of belief. (or for show?)

The EO and OO doesn't put God into a tiny little box, how would you even know God wouldn't care about how His Body and Blood is treated anyways? The Eucharist is a "Making Present" the Passion of Our Lord so I don't think that is "putting God into a tiny little box", we are in fact demonstrating our outmost reverence to Him through the extremes we are willing to go through regarding the Eucharistic Elements.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 11:44:28 AM by sakura95 »
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2014, 11:42:19 AM »
Getting back on topic here, I don't know if this would be considered inappropriate to say, but while we look at food as being nourishing to the body, so does the byproduct of food (fecal matter) expel toxins from the body.  Would it be offensive to say that the Eucharist both indwells us with Christ and expels the sinful toxins from our body?  Or is that just stretching the analogy to an extent that it should not be stretched?

Yes, I agree. Let's get back on topic.  Let's just agree to disagree on what tactics to use to help answer Yesh's questions.  I assume given the back and forth, that this comes from a heart that we care about what answer is best for Yesh.

In any sense, TheTrisagion, your analogy, I think, is not that far off.  I heard Dr. George Bebawi in his spiritual talks about suffering once mentioned one of therapeutic things to do when you are suffering with evils around you, when you go to the bathroom, pretend you are expelling those evils with them.  It obviously sounded funny, and he relished on the laughs and jokes, but he was also serious.
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2014, 03:46:49 PM »
St. Paul teaches us that our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit.  Christ's body is the resurrected temple.  St. Paul taught that we must contemplate the state of our being when we approach the cup.  If we do so in vanity, he explains, we are guilty of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.  The Eucharist involves spiritual preparation, Fasting, and discernment before you approach it.  It is a sign of the new covenant.  Your loyalty and dedication, your decision to follow the cross.....and in that spirit, you are redeemed.  Christ says that his true followers will worship him in Spirit and in Truth.  The Holy Eucharist is the focal point of Divine Liturgy which is all about right mind, right heart, and as we say in the Liturgy, "Rational worship."  You are worshiping God by partaking of Christ's body and blood with a sincere heart.  Your relationship with God is what cleanses your sins.  The Holy Eucharist is one of seven sacraments by which this is expressed....but yes....as some saints have expressed, The Eucharist is medicine for the soul.  Christ instituted it until his return.  It is the pinnacle expression of our worship activity, and one we should take very seriously....

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2014, 08:51:12 PM »

Seems to for our 3 month old son.  ;D

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2014, 09:19:45 PM »
This whole discussion just seems like an example of overthinking things. That sort of thing went on a lot during the Scholastic era, with theologians saying stuff like "because God can do anything, that means He could have become incarnate as a donkey or a carrot if he wanted".


Over analyzing a mystery can be hazardous to one's faith.  We know what happens at Eucharist and we know why.  To dissect and place this mystery under a microscope only lessens the holiness of this Sacrament.  IMHO....for what it is worth.

Offline Bob2

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2014, 09:34:29 PM »
This whole discussion just seems like an example of overthinking things. That sort of thing went on a lot during the Scholastic era, with theologians saying stuff like "because God can do anything, that means He could have become incarnate as a donkey or a carrot if he wanted".


Over analyzing a mystery can be hazardous to one's faith.  We know what happens at Eucharist and we know why.  To dissect and place this mystery under a microscope only lessens the holiness of this Sacrament.  IMHO....for what it is worth.

Agreed.

That is why I find Punch's answer to be the most spiritually profitable, I fear people probably glossed over it as nothing more than a clever one liner.

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2014, 09:35:10 PM »
The body and blood of Christ are excreted as good works.

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2014, 09:45:12 PM »
The body and blood of Christ are excreted as good works.

I would have preferred he said: Manifested instead of excreted......ugh
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 09:45:52 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2014, 01:13:16 AM »
Why are you overanalyzing this of all things?

Indeed.

I just find the whole idea of Yesh's dissecting the Eucharist in the way he does grossly and completely offensive and blasphemous. We're talking about GOD HIMSELF here, Yesh!  >:(

No, not trying to at all.  It's about the discernment of figuring at which point the eucharist (body & blood) is "in us" and no longer exists within the bread & wine.  The OP thread talked some about cutting out carpet and burning the carpet, which of course some could find offensive.

In this case, consider God created our digestive system in the temples that we have.  There is nothing wrong with the bread & wine digesting.   But it brings an issue with the cutting of carpet or picking out of the vomit as to which part was the Eucharist "digested".

Not trying to be offensive.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2014, 01:22:41 AM »
Scandalized?  When it comes to God, we should all be easily scandalized.
No, Liza, quite often we should not. God is quite capable of defending Himself. He doesn't need us to defend Him in our own insecurity about what we believe.

This is all too often a stupid argument.  God doesn't need us, at all....for anything.  He doesn't need us to worship Him, pray to Him, ask Him for help.  He doesn't need us eating His Body and Blood.  In fact, He doesn't need us to even exist.

In that vein, if that "God doesn't need us to defend Him."  ...then why does the priest filter to whom he gives the Eucharist?  Why don't we commune everyone?  After all, God doesn't need us to protect Him, nor His Gifts to us.

Why do we argue who is canonical and not?  At the root of this, is our belief of what is proper and respectful in the understanding and teachings concerning God.  If we don't need to "defend" Him....then why do we bother separating ourselves from each other for little misunderstandings as to the nature of Christ, the legitimacy of the pope, etc?

Why do we have so many martyrs?  They could have denied God...but, no....they defended Him and His legitimate power over His creation.

You are wrong.  We do need to defend God.  

No, Liza, you are twisting my words around. I did not say that we don't need to defend God. I said only that God does not need us to defend Him out of an insecurity about what we believe. I see a few of us getting needlessly defensive of what we mistakenly think is Orthodox, such that I have to think that the defensive posture is motivated by personal insecurity and not by a genuine desire to protect the holy. I don't see anything genuinely threatening in Yesh's questions, so I see no need to confront Yesh's questions as if they pose a direct, frontal attack on our faith. Criticisms that call one's questions blasphemous and offensive usually have the intended consequence of shutting up the questioner. But why is such a tactic necessary in this discussion? Do you feel that your faith is so threatened by Yesh's questions that you need to try to shut him up? If so, then how strong is your faith that you feel it so easily threatened?

I look forward to Liza's answer to this, but my answer to the above is:

Is nothing sacred?


And I have no insecurity of faith regarding the Eucharist.

LBK, YES!  The Eucharist is sacred!  That's the point of the thread. :)

But unfortunate THINGS happen as spoken in the OP thread I linked.  This involves the consideration at which point we stop needing to be concerned about the Eucharist in the digestive process (okay concerned is a bad word, but in the context of "unfortunate things").  It's just a reality that it digests.  I understand 'eaten and never consumed', but it does digest.  

It's okay if there is no answer to this question.  Sometimes there's simply not a good answer and we make do with what we have...   I was just curious if there was some writing, thought, teaching, or understanding on this matter.   Even opinions.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 01:24:39 AM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2014, 01:28:30 AM »
This whole discussion just seems like an example of overthinking things. That sort of thing went on a lot during the Scholastic era, with theologians saying stuff like "because God can do anything, that means He could have become incarnate as a donkey or a carrot if he wanted".


Over analyzing a mystery can be hazardous to one's faith.  We know what happens at Eucharist and we know why.  To dissect and place this mystery under a microscope only lessens the holiness of this Sacrament.  IMHO....for what it is worth.

I understand.  It's worth. :)  I appreciate the input and your opinion.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2014, 01:39:07 AM »
Worry about the 'spillage' issue...if you must.

but in all honesty, the Eucharist is -meant- to be ingested....so once it makes it to our digestive systems, then worrying about what it does from that point on, is rather futile.

The Body and Blood are where they -should- be, doing what they -should- be doing, and even the prayers say:


"And make me worthy to partake with out condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen...

May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body."


So if that tiny little quantity is healing my soul and body as it should be doing, then why would I worry about the details of precisely HOW it is doing that?
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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2014, 01:48:13 AM »
Worry about the 'spillage' issue...if you must.

but in all honesty, the Eucharist is -meant- to be ingested....so once it makes it to our digestive systems, then worrying about what it does from that point on, is rather futile.

The Body and Blood are where they -should- be, doing what they -should- be doing, and even the prayers say:


"And make me worthy to partake with out condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen...

May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body."


So if that tiny little quantity is healing my soul and body as it should be doing, then why would I worry about the details of precisely HOW it is doing that?

God is in the details.

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2014, 01:49:35 AM »
Worry about the 'spillage' issue...if you must.

but in all honesty, the Eucharist is -meant- to be ingested....so once it makes it to our digestive systems, then worrying about what it does from that point on, is rather futile.

The Body and Blood are where they -should- be, doing what they -should- be doing, and even the prayers say:


"And make me worthy to partake with out condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen...

May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body."


So if that tiny little quantity is healing my soul and body as it should be doing, then why would I worry about the details of precisely HOW it is doing that?

God is in the details.


And thus God is worrying about -precisely- what happens to the Eucharist in my digestive system.....I don't have to.


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2014, 01:52:48 AM »
Worry about the 'spillage' issue...if you must.

but in all honesty, the Eucharist is -meant- to be ingested....so once it makes it to our digestive systems, then worrying about what it does from that point on, is rather futile.

The Body and Blood are where they -should- be, doing what they -should- be doing, and even the prayers say:


"And make me worthy to partake with out condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen...

May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body."


So if that tiny little quantity is healing my soul and body as it should be doing, then why would I worry about the details of precisely HOW it is doing that?

God is in the details.


And thus God is worrying about -precisely- what happens to the Eucharist in my digestive system.....I don't have to.




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Offline minasoliman

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Re: When is communion/consecration null?
« Reply #104 on: November 11, 2014, 01:04:38 PM »
 I did not want to reply to Yesh until he took time to consider my replies to him.  In the meantime, the way I see it is this.  The manner in which we reply to Yesh's questions can be considered not as jumping on Yesh's case, but as coming from a good heart, and I'm glad at least Yesh is recognizing that many people who do not like his question see his question in a way as disrespect to the Eucharist.  Many other people here are giving Yesh the benefit of the doubt and is perhaps trying to come at terms with his thinking to try to help him appreciate why some of us have not even considered the question from the beginning, since it is missing the point of the Eucharist in us.  So I hope at least a bit of empathy on this issue can help us get forward.

Mor's earlier response also was important I think not as an attack to Yesh's person but because all he really was trying to mention was that when these questions are asked, the point of the Eucharist is completely lost.  It's like asking whether we engage in cannibalism.  The answer to both Yesh's and the cannibalism question is the same.  By engaging in the physical sense of "tasting and seeing that the Lord is good", it does not become in us physical nutrients and expelling of wastes, but the means of spiritual union with Christ and the attaining of the divine life, and the "digestion" is not physical, but contemplative and practical, that is living a prayerful life and a life of service and righteousness, while the wastes we remove are our sins.  The Eucharist is also the act of love that Christ offers us since we have been "wedded" to Christ in baptism.  It is why also in the Church, the consummation of marriage (or any sacrament for that matter) is not the physical chamber, but the spiritual chamber, the Eucharist.
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