Author Topic: Why the rush to big numbers? Mayan (Greek) Orthodox in Guatemala: 2014 Estimate  (Read 23220 times)

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Offline Sirach

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Why the rush to big numbers?

Initial reports, from a few years ago, of the number of Mayan's who, under the leadership of Father Andrés Girón, entered the Greek Orthodox Church ranged (IIRC) from 150,000 to 500,000.  Now that the smoke has cleared a bit it seems that the number is about 40k.  Still a large number, to be sure, but only 8% of what was initially reported by the Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico (HERE).

According to Jesse Brandow:  How many Mayan Orthodox people are there? "As of 2014, the best estimate from the missionaries involved in the field is 40,000 people who live in about 300 villages."

Source.  Mayan Orthodoxy

Edit.  ETA the word Mayan in the Subject line as there may be non-Mayan Greek Orthodox in Guatemala.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 02:50:57 PM by Sirach »

Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Why the rush to big numbers? Greek Orthodox in Guatemala: 2014 Estimate
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 02:49:45 PM »
The original numbers came from Fr Giron himself. There are still places in the world where reliable demographic data is non-existent.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Sirach

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Interesting.  I listed to the 2012 EFOM Missions Lecture and don't remember Father Girón saying that.  

Is there another source for his use of that number?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 05:18:33 PM by Sirach »

Offline Sirach

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During the Question and Answer portion of the 2012 Hellenic College Holy Cross annual EFOM Missions Lecture Father Girón mentions numbers one time. 

At 15:00, Father Chakos refers to the importance of the elders in the village.  Father Girón gives an example of one particular community wanting to be Orthodox and bringing their request to the village elders.  Part of his response includes this:  "the whole community, that means 150 families... is about, at least, five to seven hundred people."

300 Mayan communities were accepted into the Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Athenagoras of Mexico.  Even if we assume that all those villages have the same number of people, the total number would be only 150,000 to 210,000.  Again, a very impressive number, but not half-a-million.

Source.  HCHC Media.  Missions Week - Q&A

Note:  Father Girón mentions no numbers during the main presentation (HERE).  Father Girón begins speaking at 37:00.

Is there another source for his use of the number 500,000?

Offline Orest

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I think this quote needs to be considered:
Quote
Where are the people in the transition to Orthodoxy?[back to top]At this point, the priests have received the most training in Orthodox theology and liturgical practice, some of them even traveling abroad to find a more immersive experience of Orthodox worship. At the grass roots level, however, most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined. Nevertheless, almost all of the people identify as part of la iglesia ortodoxa (the Orthodox Church), often with a sense of pride and hope because this identity tells them that they "are not alone"—a common refrain among the community leaders. So, overall, the people self-identify as Orthodox and are generally eager to learn, but they are still at the very beginning of a long process of transition
 

"....most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined."
  Sounds to me like a protest movement FROM something which may even be political rather than religious.

Offline Fabio Leite

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I think this quote needs to be considered:
Quote
Where are the people in the transition to Orthodoxy?[back to top]At this point, the priests have received the most training in Orthodox theology and liturgical practice, some of them even traveling abroad to find a more immersive experience of Orthodox worship. At the grass roots level, however, most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined. Nevertheless, almost all of the people identify as part of la iglesia ortodoxa (the Orthodox Church), often with a sense of pride and hope because this identity tells them that they "are not alone"—a common refrain among the community leaders. So, overall, the people self-identify as Orthodox and are generally eager to learn, but they are still at the very beginning of a long process of transition
 

"....most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined."
 Sounds to me like a protest movement FROM something which may even be political rather than religious.

Sounds like it, innit?



Waiting for reality check to sink in that matter for all the involved.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 01:49:17 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline DeniseDenise

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I think this quote needs to be considered:
Quote
Where are the people in the transition to Orthodoxy?[back to top]At this point, the priests have received the most training in Orthodox theology and liturgical practice, some of them even traveling abroad to find a more immersive experience of Orthodox worship. At the grass roots level, however, most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined. Nevertheless, almost all of the people identify as part of la iglesia ortodoxa (the Orthodox Church), often with a sense of pride and hope because this identity tells them that they "are not alone"—a common refrain among the community leaders. So, overall, the people self-identify as Orthodox and are generally eager to learn, but they are still at the very beginning of a long process of transition
 

"....most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined."
 Sounds to me like a protest movement FROM something which may even be political rather than religious.

Sounds like it, innit?



Waiting for reality check to sink in that matter for all the involved.


Maybe you should stop your gleeful popcorning and go volunteer to HELP.


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Fabio Leite

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I think this quote needs to be considered:
Quote
Where are the people in the transition to Orthodoxy?[back to top]At this point, the priests have received the most training in Orthodox theology and liturgical practice, some of them even traveling abroad to find a more immersive experience of Orthodox worship. At the grass roots level, however, most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined. Nevertheless, almost all of the people identify as part of la iglesia ortodoxa (the Orthodox Church), often with a sense of pride and hope because this identity tells them that they "are not alone"—a common refrain among the community leaders. So, overall, the people self-identify as Orthodox and are generally eager to learn, but they are still at the very beginning of a long process of transition
 

"....most people do not fully understand the church that they have joined."
 Sounds to me like a protest movement FROM something which may even be political rather than religious.

Sounds like it, innit?



Waiting for reality check to sink in that matter for all the involved.


Maybe you should stop your gleeful popcorning and go volunteer to HELP.




I've had my time of helping politics to use faith for its purposes, although I didn't know what I was doing either. Thanks but no.

Those involved will have to learn that are being used by revolutionary movements through the painful experience of disappointment and betrayal. Like a woman in denial about her abusive husband, let's see how long it will take until staying is more painful and shameful than leaving.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline DeniseDenise

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The OCMC is not into politics


I have personally spoken to people who work with the churches there..have you?

I know -what- sort of things they are doing to bring the churches into line with Orthodox Praxis.  From someone who is training their priests to serve.  I have heard about the actual real life humans, who spent weeks on end learning to sing for Pascha....not for a political rally.  For Pascha...for Our Lord's Resurrection.

Sure, there are problems. But I am pretty sure that the Russian Missions to Alaska had to -teach- those folks out of their beliefs too and that it wasn't overnight.



Maybe you spend too much time dealing with politics to ever consider other things happen.








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Offline Fabio Leite

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The OCMC is not into politics

I know. It's not from their side.

I have personally spoken to people who work with the churches there..have you?

I've been educated in Latin-American revolutionary culture. Have you? I don't talk to people who have contact with the subject. I'm part of the subject.

I know how it works from inside and I managed to leave at least part of it behind. *If* these groups are faithful to then Fr. Girón's revolutionary vision and if he was succesful in cultivating a revolutionary attitude in them, as soon as they are accepted as legitimate "full" members of Orthodoxy they will start to use its name to defend some form of Bolivarianism or at least "Orthodox" liberation theology, which authors confess openly to be a strategy to put the Church in the service of Marxism.

But, true although unlikely in this particular case, I might be wrong. Let's see.

I know -what- sort of things they are doing to bring the churches into line with Orthodox Praxis.  From someone who is training their priests to serve.  I have heard about the actual real life humans, who spent weeks on end learning to sing for Pascha....not for a political rally.  For Pascha...for Our Lord's Resurrection.

Sure, there are problems. But I am pretty sure that the Russian Missions to Alaska had to -teach- those folks out of their beliefs too and that it wasn't overnight.

Revolutionaries overturned Roman Catholic practices. Given the chance they will do the same to Orthodox ones. A motto of the revolutionary movement is that *everything* can be used for the revolution. The issue is never the issue. The only issue is the revolution.


Maybe you spend too much time dealing with politics to ever consider other things happen.

The reason I do is because there is this great project, in the words of Maduro, of the "Grande Pátria", a unified communist Latin-America, or in the words of the Foro de São Paulo, the Latin-American Communist International, the project of "reconquering in Latin-America all that was lost in Eastern Europe".  

Last Saturday, 10 thousand marched in São Paulo against the local representative of the Foro, the current president. That's just a local instance of a continental problem that is insidious and in Gramscian-style, meant to occupy "trenches" in education, the Church, the media, culture until "the voice of the party is heard from everywhere, invisible, as an omnipotent order". Fr. Girón was completely immersed in this project. The only chance of success in the mission in Guatemala is that he failed in educating these people for the revolution and that OCMC is succesful in purging them from revolutionary ideals.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 02:48:07 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Ok,

tell the people involved in that mission to get informed about these:

Alianza Nueva Nación, Unidad Revolucionária Nacional Guatemalteca, Frente Ampla de Guatemala: Winaq, ANN and URNG

These are all groups in Guatemala more or less related to the Foro de São Paulo. Have any of these revolutionary groups ever been involved with Fr. Girón and/or his communities? If yes, to which degree and how? What kind of relation do the communities have to these groups if any or to similar groups? Are they simpathetic to these groups? Neutral? Against? Do they identify more with their compatriots or with the "excluded" and "minorities" of the world? When they get financial aid from non-Orthodox sources, which sources are these? Who are the "benefactors' who give them medicines, dentures, trips to the doctor, "protection" from violence? What "favors of gratitude" do these other benefectors expect or even demand in return?

Can they even think of any other form of healing the problems of the poor that do not include "revolting against the System" which includes the Church, the meaning of the dogmas (not the dogmas themselves! Revolutionaries work with changing the meaning of the words without changing them. It's good when everybody hears "democracy" and think what normal people think democracy is, while revolutionaries mean by democracy voting in options predetermined by the party).

Do they see themselves as autonomous Children of God or as "the oppressed" in Freirian terms? Do they understand their condition only in terms of class strugle or can they envision a society where individuals can go up and down the social ladder making class strugle meaningless? ?
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline truthseeker32

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This reminds me of how irked I get every time Mormons claim they have 15 million members without telling you only like 20-30 percent of that 15 million are active participants in the faith.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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This reminds me of how irked I get every time Mormons claim they have 15 million members without telling you only like 20-30 percent of that 15 million are active participants in the faith.

Oh, if only we could get the real numbers for global Orthodoxy. "225-300 million" is quite a margin of error! And out of those, how many are actively attending services, seek an Orthodox wedding, etc. How many even believe in God??? Those Russian statistics for atheists who are "Orthodox" were pretty alarming.

Offline truthseeker32

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This reminds me of how irked I get every time Mormons claim they have 15 million members without telling you only like 20-30 percent of that 15 million are active participants in the faith.

Oh, if only we could get the real numbers for global Orthodoxy. "225-300 million" is quite a margin of error! And out of those, how many are actively attending services, seek an Orthodox wedding, etc. How many even believe in God??? Those Russian statistics for atheists who are "Orthodox" were pretty alarming.
Very true. Worldwide Orthodoxy might be at 10% if we are lucky.

Offline Minnesotan

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As a North American, I don't feel like I'm exactly in a position to criticize Latin Americans who engage in liberation theology.

After all, my own country was practically founded by guys who were using the Bible and theological language to justify revolutionary activities. Please note that that doesn't make a supporter of these kinds of things. It's just that the American Revolution was fought and settled long before I was born, and I didn't exactly have any say in the matter. Also, I don't see any real difference between "classical" revolutionists of the American/French/Cromwellian variety and later Marxist ones. Revolution is revolution, after all, and capitalism and communism are but two sides of the same coin. It's not for no reason that John Calvin has been called the first liberation theologian by some. Calvinist nations (such as the Afrikaners, Dutch under Spanish rule, Scots, etc.) historically had very strong tendencies to see themselves as simultaneously "the elect" and "the oppressed"--in other words, they saw themselves as Israel in a Babylon world, the same way proponents of Latin American liberation theology now do.

Engaging in McCarthyism in an attempt to discredit the entire group will do no good. So what if there do happen to be people with Marxist sympathies in that group? That doesn't mean there aren't many more who are just sincerely interested in Orthodox faith and spirituality. Do you think North American converts to Orthodoxy should be required to renounce the American Revolution and everything it stands for before being received? I don't think those kinds of litmus tests are a good idea.

If I had used that kind of logic while looking into Orthodoxy, I would have given up on it pretty quick after learning about those rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk who are using Orthodoxy as a justification for some pretty awful stuff. Fortunately, I don't tend to politicize everything, and I'm not going to let my disgust at what's going on there spoil my view of Orthodoxy as a whole.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 11:19:42 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline Fabio Leite

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The American War of Independence was completely different from the French and subsequent revolutions.  It was not revolutionary in fact, but a conservative war. The people involved did not want to create a new humanity, They did not envision the future as an innevitable paradise and themselves as the representatives of this future perfect society with the rights to commit any crimes in the name of that future. They put themselves under the same laws as the others.

The history of revolutionary movements can be traced back to several medieval heresies and it develops from there until current progressive movements. They basically are people who can't accept the last words of the Creed "the world to come" as something after the eschaton. For them "thy kingdom come" means a social utopia not now but in an undefined future. Morality is redefined by that. Any action that brings about that future is good, anything that prevents it is bad. Thatis why, for example, progressives are ok withpromoting gay marriage inthe West and at the same time support gay killing regimes in the Middle East. Both things help the destruction of their enemies, so both are good.

The American War had nothing of that. It was simply about not wanting an authoritarian ruler over your heads, but it had no major hate against reality or society in a metaphysical way. It did not have any plan of reformulating creation, of creating a new humanity. The word revolution means concepts that are opposites when used regarding the US and the revolutionary movements of the world. And that is one of the saddest things, because Americans tend to think that anyone that uses it is doing what you did, when it's actually against everything that you believe. It's not about self-determination, but about destroying the capacity of sel-determination of individuals for the sake of the "Soviet man", or the "Patria Grande".

I have posted about liberation theology before. It's not even like prosperity theology, just a misguided wrong theology. It's not theology at all. It's a strategy to put the church under the service of communism and their creators *confess* it. The objective is to expand the soviet red priest concept around the world and adapting it to local cultures. I have a catechism written by "Friar" Beto based on liberation theology. He teaches basically what i wrote above. That the kingdom of God is a socialist utopia that will exist here in this world, that the tools for the kingdom of God are unions, social movements and revolutions, and that if someone stops going to church to promote union strikes that is just another wayof serving Christ. Liberation Theology is the voice of the antichrist through and through.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 06:48:28 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Sirach

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Back to the OP for a moment... Can we assume that the number 500,000 was (by accident, or pious wish) somehow arrived at by some unknown person or persons and subsequently left unchecked by the Orthodox hierarchy? 


Offline Minnesotan

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They did not envision the future as an innevitable paradise and themselves as the representatives of this future perfect society with the rights to commit any crimes in the name of that future.

Tell that to any Native American. Do the phrases "Manifest Destiny" and "American Exceptionalism" ring a bell? How about filibusterism (which was a 19th century attempt to "spread American values" through fomenting revolutions in Latin America). Frequently, anti-Catholicism played a strong role in these activities too. It was American Protestants who supported the secularizing Mexican government during the Cristero War. In Latin American countries with large Protestant minorities, frequently these groups were sown by and acted as proxies for American interests. If you want a group that makes Christianity subordinate to a political ideology, well there you go. Look up Efraim Rios Montt (a Pentecostal who was formerly the brutal dictator of Guatemala, and who was personal friends with Falwell and Robertson, while also receiving direct support from the CIA).

Calvinism is hardly conservative, and the radical-individualist ideas of John Locke etc. are even less so. The Puritans and Pietists wanted to "reform" and "purify" society, which is the very definition of immanentizing the eschaton. Many of them were historicists and postmillennialists, which means they believed that by overthrowing the "old" Catholic and Orthodox ways, and inaugurating a "new" way (Protestant, or frequently Protestantism mixed with various secular ideologies), they were literally fulfilling prophecy and ushering in the kingdom of God.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 11:09:25 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Back to the OP for a moment... Can we assume that the number 500,000 was (by accident, or pious wish) somehow arrived at by some unknown person or persons and subsequently left unchecked by the Orthodox hierarchy? 


I think that is a safe assumption.
God bless!

Offline Minnesotan

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Back to the OP for a moment... Can we assume that the number 500,000 was (by accident, or pious wish) somehow arrived at by some unknown person or persons and subsequently left unchecked by the Orthodox hierarchy? 

Yeah, I think it's pretty safe to assume that. The fact that actual missionaries are using the number 40,000 (which seems more realistic to me) makes me think the 500,000 figure was likely made up, perhaps not intentionally (maybe the person just added a zero, either as a slip of the tongue/keyboard or because he didn't remember correctly?)

I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Fabio Leite

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They did not envision the future as an innevitable paradise and themselves as the representatives of this future perfect society with the rights to commit any crimes in the name of that future.

Tell that to any Native American. Do the phrases "Manifest Destiny" and "American Exceptionalism" ring a bell? How about filibusterism (which was a 19th century attempt to "spread American values" through fomenting revolutions in Latin America). Frequently, anti-Catholicism played a strong role in these activities too. It was American Protestants who supported the secularizing Mexican government during the Cristero War. In Latin American countries with large Protestant minorities, frequently these groups were sown by and acted as proxies for American interests. If you want a group that makes Christianity subordinate to a political ideology, well there you go. Look up Efraim Rios Montt (a Pentecostal who was formerly the brutal dictator of Guatemala, and who was personal friends with Falwell and Robertson, while also receiving direct support from the CIA).

Calvinism is hardly conservative, and the radical-individualist ideas of John Locke etc. are even less so. The Puritans and Pietists wanted to "reform" and "purify" society, which is the very definition of immanentizing the eschaton. Many of them were historicists and postmillennialists, which means they believed that by overthrowing the "old" Catholic and Orthodox ways, and inaugurating a "new" way (Protestant, or frequently Protestantism mixed with various secular ideologies), they were literally fulfilling prophecy and ushering in the kingdom of God.

There definitely are revolutionary ideas in the United States and sometimes they come to power - Obama is just the latest example. But the American War of independence was not based on such ideas, although actual revolutionaries might have "surfed the wave".

A good point that you make, but I don't know if you intended to ( :) ) is that revolutionary ideas *always* lead to centralist authoritarian imperialism at least or to actual totalitarian expansionist states like the Soviet Union and the "Patria Grande" now in formation in Latin-America.
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Offline DCBmoreOCF

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Interesting commentaries about the American War of Independence. Some historian argue that it was in fact not a revolutionary war, but a civil war, as we were colonies of Great Britain, and the colonists were British subjects, hence the phrase "Taxation Without Representation" (the colonists resisted the taxes Parliament imposed upon the colonies to pay for the French and Indian War, in which a gentleman by the name of George Washington was an officer of the British Army and was involved with).

I tend to agree that it was more of a civil war at 1st, that took on some revolutionary characteristics as the founding fathers realized that in order to gainer support, it couldn't just be about taxation.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Interesting commentaries about the American War of Independence. Some historian argue that it was in fact not a revolutionary war, but a civil war, as we were colonies of Great Britain, and the colonists were British subjects, hence the phrase "Taxation Without Representation" (the colonists resisted the taxes Parliament imposed upon the colonies to pay for the French and Indian War, in which a gentleman by the name of George Washington was an officer of the British Army and was involved with).

I tend to agree that it was more of a civil war at 1st, that took on some revolutionary characteristics as the founding fathers realized that in order to gainer support, it couldn't just be about taxation.

Possibly, but I'm working with a specific meaning of "revolutionary". There is the broader sense of any abrupt or radical change and the meaning it has in leftist and progressive discourse. In the later, it usually means:

1) Inversion of perception of time: a commitment to a future new world that is not simply new as in a "new house" or even a "new country" but new in a radically ontological way: it's a "new man". It's new in the same sense that of the new creation after Judgment Day, only that instead of having the power of God doing it, it's going to be political, social, cultural power. Normal people know that the present is the effect of the past and that the future is uncertain and will be the result of present actions. Revolutionaries see the future as defined, some in detail like communists some in broader strokes like progressists and that we must redefine the past and control the present to adapt to that future and achieve it even faster. Also, it's not a personal future they have in mind, but the future of all humankind and sometimes of even the planet or the universe;

2) Inversion of Morality: This future new world of social perfection does not happen right now not because it's an illusion, but because evil groups ("the man", "the Jews", "the elite", "the 1%", "the West", "the capitalists", "the white men", "men", "homophobics", "the patriarchate", "the Church", "the traditional thinking in the Church", "the reactionaries") actively conspire to prevent it. So we must find an army of the pure ("the proletariat", "the arians", "the minorities", "the enlightened elite", "the sons of Holy Russia", "the marginals", "criminals", "the perverts", "the vanguard", "nature lovers", "people of 'scientific rational minds' ", "liberals", "progressive") who will fight the conspiracy against the future. Now, because these revolutionaries feel there is some resistance to their actions and ideas, they never blame it on the fact it's reality itself that is 'resisting'. They think it is one of those evil groups. So every action that gives power to the revolution is good. Every action against it is bad.

3) Inversion of Subject-Object: Because morality has been redefined to "what gives us power is good, everything else is bad", my victims are seen as my aggressors. They were trying to prevent "equality", "a more just social order", attacking the armies of the pure obviously as representatives of the evil groups. Every evil action that the revolutionary may commit is good, so the victim is necessarily evil and the real aggressor.

Main corollary: To defeat all the evil groups, the revolutionary group must be stronger than all the evil groups working together. Therefore, it must concentrate power, money beyond imagination, through all means, since any means that helps them is good for that very fact. That is why authoritarian or totalitarian murderous regime are not a "mistake" of revolutionary policies, it is its necessary consequence. Once it is achieved, and since the utopia is impossible, the tendency is that the regime continues indefinetely, "marching toward the future".

The American War of independence had nothing of this. They wanted a radical change, but they just wanted to have their own country and although it may be "revolutionary" in the broad general sense, it is not in the specific meaning I'm using.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 10:54:24 AM by Fabio Leite »
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« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 11:18:01 AM by KostaC »
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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The American War of Independence was completely different from the French and subsequent revolutions.  It was not revolutionary in fact, but a conservative war. The people involved did not want to create a new humanity, They did not envision the future as an innevitable paradise and themselves as the representatives of this future perfect society with the rights to commit any crimes in the name of that future. They put themselves under the same laws as the others.

Quite true.  The points that Minnesotan makes about the "Trail of Tears" and the rule of Andrew Jackson, etc., are not revolutionary by Fabio's definition.  The displacement and/or subjugation of indigenous peoples is a classical feature of the expansion of any empire.  The Russians did the same thing in Siberia, and the Western Europeans in Africa and Southeast Asia (to a limited extent).  The use of those tactics hardly renders a group "revolutionary" in the sense that Fabio is talking about.

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The history of revolutionary movements can be traced back to several medieval heresies and it develops from there until current progressive movements. They basically are people who can't accept the last words of the Creed "the world to come" as something after the eschaton. For them "thy kingdom come" means a social utopia not now but in an undefined future. Morality is redefined by that. Any action that brings about that future is good, anything that prevents it is bad. Thatis why, for example, progressives are ok withpromoting gay marriage inthe West and at the same time support gay killing regimes in the Middle East. Both things help the destruction of their enemies, so both are good.

Yes, the biggest problem that I have with Communism, at least as it was expressed in the Soviet Union, is that it attempts to recreate the promises of the eschaton without Christ.  It is a modern-day retelling of the story of the Tower of Babel. 

(This is why I have said to some dear friends (of the Soviet legacy), who believe in the principles of Communism but are also believing Orthodox Christians -- This system would work if everyone was as noble as you are.  But they aren't.  For that, we must wait until Christ comes back.)

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The American War had nothing of that. It was simply about not wanting an authoritarian ruler over your heads, but it had no major hate against reality or society in a metaphysical way. It did not have any plan of reformulating creation, of creating a new humanity. The word revolution means concepts that are opposites when used regarding the US and the revolutionary movements of the world. And that is one of the saddest things, because Americans tend to think that anyone that uses it is doing what you did, when it's actually against everything that you believe. It's not about self-determination, but about destroying the capacity of sel-determination of individuals for the sake of the "Soviet man", or the "Patria Grande".

It is like the mantra that so many people say, "Change is good."  Not necessarily.  Sometimes change is necessary.  But sometimes there is another appropriate mantra, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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I have posted about liberation theology before. It's not even like prosperity theology, just a misguided wrong theology. It's not theology at all. It's a strategy to put the church under the service of communism and their creators *confess* it. The objective is to expand the soviet red priest concept around the world and adapting it to local cultures. I have a catechism written by "Friar" Beto based on liberation theology. He teaches basically what i wrote above. That the kingdom of God is a socialist utopia that will exist here in this world, that the tools for the kingdom of God are unions, social movements and revolutions, and that if someone stops going to church to promote union strikes that is just another wayof serving Christ. Liberation Theology is the voice of the antichrist through and through.

I am not familiar with liberation theology.  I know that the Roman Catholic Church (in Rome) has greatly opposed it.  But from the way you describe it, it sounds very much like the promises (not the actual reality) that were trumpeted in the Soviet Union.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 10:15:39 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

Offline Fabio Leite

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I am not familiar with liberation theology.  I know that the Roman Catholic Church (in Rome) has greatly opposed it.  But from the way you describe it, it sounds very much like the promises (not the actual reality) that were trumpeted in the Soviet Union.

Here are the words of the fathers of the movement. There are no interpretations of mine. Fr. Girón and his movement were immersed in the Guatemaltecan version of this. It's not I that politicize everything, but I do denounce those who do.

The ex-friar Boff gave the following declaration in an article in the newspaper Jornal do Brasil, April 6th, 1980:

"What we propose is not theology inside Marxism, but Marxism (historical materialism) inside theology".

"The method of the Liberation Theology...is the dialectic method." (Leonardo e Clodovis Boff, Teologia da Libertação no Debate Atual, Vozes, Petrópolis, p. 22).

"Liberation theology starts up from this kind of interpretation of reality: social, radical and dialectic criticism, structuralist." (L. e Clodovis Boff, Da Libertação, Vozes, Petrópolis, 4a edição , p,17).

Boff explains the consequences of all this: "In Liberation Theory, the fundamental issue is not theology, but liberation" (L. Boff e Clodovis Boff , Teologia da Libertação no Debate Atual, Vozes, Petrópolis, 1985, p.17).

"When I speak of liberation I positevely understand this: to end the system of injustice that is capitalism. It is to liberate oneself from capitalism to create in its place a new society, let's say, a socialist society." (Leonardo e Clodovis Boff, Da Libertação, Vozes, Petrópolis, 4a edição , p, 70).

"It is necessary to say clearly and boldly: liberation is the emancipation of the socially oppressed. It is positevely for us to overcome the capitalist system in direction of a new society of the socialist kind" (L e C. Boff, Da Libertação, p. 113).

"If I so express myself it is because, for us, today, the Kingdom of God is positively socialism" (L. Boff e Cl. Boff. Da Libertação, p. 96).

"The therapy presented by this radical critical conscience is not the reform of the (capitalist) system; this would be to treat the symptom without noticing the source producing the disease; we propose a new way of organizing all society over new different fundaments; no more over having capital on the hands of few, but from the work of all, with the participation of all in the means of production and in the means of power; we speak of liberation" (L e Cl. Boff, Da Libertação, pp.16-17.)"
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 03:53:45 PM by Fabio Leite »
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I don't have a problem with some of the quotes.  Others are abhorrent.

If someone (or some country) wishes to jettison capitalism for socialism, I don't have a problem with that.  I myself would prefer some kind of reformed capitalism.  I am far from a libertarian but I am also not a statist.  What I think we both agree on is that any ideology that proposes that capitalism, socialism, communism, etc., will solve the fundamental problems of the human condition, and that is therefore desirable at any cost, is the sort of "revolutionary" ideology that we are discussing here.  And that it has no place in the Church.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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You find no difference between the French Revolution and the American one?
The Americans founders were fleeing state-religions, well read Enlightened and Reformation thinkers (in the best sense, not in the pejorative way many Orthodox use such a word), and took their cues from The Bible, among other readings of the great books. The French launched from the beginining  as well but missed by a little bit, killing about 20% of their own people leading to the eventual stomping out of their state religion!
I am astounded one would write such as you have. I need stop as my passions are causing me to turn!

As a North American, I don't feel like I'm exactly in a position to criticize Latin Americans who engage in liberation theology.
After all, my own country was practically founded by guys who were using the Bible and theological language to justify revolutionary activities. Please note that that doesn't make a supporter of these kinds of things. It's just that the American Revolution was fought and settled long before I was born, and I didn't exactly have any say in the matter. Also, I don't see any real difference between "classical" revolutionists of the American/French/Cromwellian variety and later Marxist ones. Revolution is revolution, after all, and capitalism and communism are but two sides of the same coin. It's not for no reason that
If I had used that kind of logic while looking into Orthodoxy, I would have given up on it pretty quick after learning about those rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk who are using Orthodoxy as a justification for some pretty awful stuff. Fortunately, I don't tend to politicize everything, and I'm not going to let my disgust at what's going on there spoil my view of Orthodoxy as a whole.
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Greek Orthodox Church In Latin America Is Not Very Greek
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

And I'll be darned, what are all those converts doing on Greek property?

Oh, BTW, that Bishop has one heck of a large diocese; he needs our prayers, for sure.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Hope to get down there for a visit soon.
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Offline mike

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

Well, the owner is Orthodox so...
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?
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Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Offline Father H

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Greek Orthodox Church In Latin America Is Not Very Greek
https://www.facebook.com/orthodox.christian.news/posts/1727154270844507

Reminds me of Christ's words:  "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

Well, the owner is Orthodox so...

Is that why her husband went 'gay'?
She practices Orthodoxy as much as a demons work at virtues.
Orthodoxy is not genetic so you cannot get it by being Greek alone, no matter what they say.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

Well, the owner is Orthodox so...

Is that why her husband went 'gay'?
She practices Orthodoxy as much as a demons work at virtues.
Orthodoxy is not genetic so you cannot get it by being Greek alone, no matter what they say.

In the 80s, both she and Bernard Levin were waist-deep in the Rajneeshee cult. The Rajneesh movement, incidentally, was linked to both a bioterror attack (the first and largest in American history) and a later assassination plot, which is rather ironic considering the peace-and-free-love teachings of the group's founder.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 08:58:16 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

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In the 80s, both she and Bernard Levin were waist-deep in the Rajneeshee cult.

Waist-deep, eh?  ;)
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Offline Minnesotan

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In the 80s, both she and Bernard Levin were waist-deep in the Rajneeshee cult.

Waist-deep, eh?  ;)

Well, "Free love" was a major part of Osho's teachings, so....
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Well, if they don't like Fr Giron, they can always contact the HOTCA mission in Guatemala City.  ;D

http://hotca.org/directory/parishes

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Reminds me of Christ's words:  "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

I think of that often when I meet many Eastern Europeans who are completely secular.  ;D
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Offline Opus118

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

Well, the owner is Orthodox so...

Is that why her husband went 'gay'?
She practices Orthodoxy as much as a demons work at virtues.
Orthodoxy is not genetic so you cannot get it by being Greek alone, no matter what they say.

Why you find it necessary to trash talk is a mystery to me.

But to clarify, Michael Huffington was/is bisexual. He became Orthodox on his own as far as I can tell.

Here is a post of his on Huffington":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-huffington/for-what-profits-a-man-if_b_98783.html

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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Imagine HuffPo reporting any religious thingy in a good light!
Few can since they never do.

Well, the owner is Orthodox so...

Is that why her husband went 'gay'?
She practices Orthodoxy as much as a demons work at virtues.
Orthodoxy is not genetic so you cannot get it by being Greek alone, no matter what they say.

Why you find it necessary to trash talk is a mystery to me.
But to clarify, Michael Huffington was/is bisexual. He became Orthodox on his own as far as I can tell.
Here is a post of his on Huffington":
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-huffington/for-what-profits-a-man-if_b_98783.html

I apologize for trash talking you as you were not my intention for harming. It was Rather to indicate the irony, via humor, that the virtuous person she may have been had she stuck with the Greek Orthodox principles would not have landed her in such a situation as having sex with a man that has sex with other men. Of corse there is no guarantee with Orthodoxy but I am under the impression there is a Warentee.
My dear girl, you are to tender for such a place as this but I trust such exposure to the rough and tumble will harden you to the barbarians such as myself which occupy.
Again, my apologies.
Full disclosure: If that rag had any redeeming value, I would be surprised. Now I will read your referenced site
Well I am wrong; this article, though in the negative, except about himself, does have redeeming value. Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 01:34:36 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Why doesn't anyone speak normally anymore?
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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The only normal speak was Adam & Eve and Him.
Down hill ever since  ;D
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