Author Topic: Question For Chalcedonians  (Read 5812 times)

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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2014, 09:44:34 AM »
Where did I ever say one is saved insomuch that one cannot give up one's salvation? ("Give up" is probably a better term than "loose")

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2014, 09:46:25 AM »
Where did I ever say one is saved insomuch that one cannot give up one's salvation? ("Give up" is probably a better term than "loose")

Tony

OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2014, 09:47:11 AM »
I guess there's a misunderstanding here, because you're very clearly saying that salvation can be lost if you do not obey the ship rules.

I think so.

Tony
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2014, 09:48:19 AM »
I'll get back to you, I have to go now.

Tony
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2014, 09:50:35 AM »
Salvation is not something that we posess and can lose, it is something that we continually strive for throughout our life. Just to take your Ephesians verse. Paul does not say "for by grace were you saved", he says "for by grace ARE you saved". Salvation is in the present tense, because it is aways happening.

Trisagion,

As per my understanding of the Greek it literally says, "By grace you are having been saved." Meaning, by grace you exist in the state of having (already) been saved.

Tony
I am not at all a Greek scholar, so perhaps someone else can give a better answer, but the Greek word is ἐστε which is the second person plural present indicative of εἰμί (the word for "I am").  The word for "saved" is σεσῳσμένοι which translates to "save, resue heal". The actual literal translation would be "For by grace you (plural) are (present tense) rescued through faith..."
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2014, 11:11:58 AM »
Salvation is not something that we posess and can lose, it is something that we continually strive for throughout our life. Just to take your Ephesians verse. Paul does not say "for by grace were you saved", he says "for by grace ARE you saved". Salvation is in the present tense, because it is aways happening.

Trisagion,

As per my understanding of the Greek it literally says, "By grace you are having been saved." Meaning, by grace you exist in the state of having (already) been saved.

Tony
I am not at all a Greek scholar, so perhaps someone else can give a better answer, but the Greek word is ἐστε which is the second person plural present indicative of εἰμί (the word for "I am").  The word for "saved" is σεσῳσμένοι which translates to "save, resue heal". The actual literal translation would be "For by grace you (plural) are (present tense) rescued through faith..."

I'm not an expert in Greek neither, not by a long shot, but most of the super literal translations say, "You are having been saved."

Quote
"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,"--Ephesians 2:8 YLT

I also spoke about this verse with someone who is an expert of Greek recently (Tim Warner) and he told me the same thing. As Young has it here he says that is the literal translation, but it doesn't really sound right in English so to sound good and yet be as literal as possible at the same time, he translates it as "have been saved" in his translation of the NT. Thus when it is translated "are saved" in English, it means you are already saved right now.

Plus you also forgot to mention John who says of the saints that he was writing to that they possessed eternal life already while still enduring. And there are other verses that speak of believers already being saved before the end, those were just examples.

Tony
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 11:13:09 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2014, 11:34:13 AM »
OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).

Yes, OSAS is a lie of the Devil. I reject all Reformed doctrines of "salvation."

1) I'm not saying one who is saved knows God will save that one, that they will endure. I'm saying one who is saved knows they are currently saved/right with God/ransomed from the power of Satan to God.

2) Shepherd of Hermas confirms what the Book of Hebrews says, that there is really virtually only one repentance for the people of God which is supposed to happen at baptism. Yes a second repentance can happen as we see examples of the Judge giving some of the 7 Assemblies in Revelation a chance to repent for doing some wicked deeds, and also Paul mentions a man who was having his father's wife as having been delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit MIGHT be saved, and we know that later he was indeed restored to favor after a genuine repentance. Also the Angel of Repentance offers a chance to some to repent after they have fallen away too. But I've had lot's of chances. My conscience speaks to me that if I do such a deed that is wicked, like break my vows to my wife before God that I will most likely be given over to those twelve women in black in the Shepherd of Hermas which symbolize the fruits of apostasy. There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness, but for heathen repentance is possible till the last day. This was common teaching in the early Church. Tertullian talks about it too (though he went a bit too far I believe). I believe that it is dangerous to not accept Hermas as Scripture because it confirms how narrow the way is and what the correct interpretation of Hebrews 6 and 10 is. AT LEAST people should take it as true if not as Scripture equal with the Bible and heed the warnings. Even certain Orthodox in the Church have had prophecies that they received and people believe them to be from God even though they don't put them in the Bible. Even 1Clement, though not in the Bible, people would agree is true and useful for doctrine. It confirms that Protestants who believe in a priesthood for all believers only are in error. But the Bible alone can prove what I'm saying because it says the Anointed One died for past sins (Romans 3:25; 2Peter 1:9), not past, present and future, so that's how the Hebrews can say what it does.

Tony
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 11:38:17 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2014, 12:05:17 PM »
OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).

Yes, OSAS is a lie of the Devil. I reject all Reformed doctrines of "salvation."

1) I'm not saying one who is saved knows God will save that one, that they will endure. I'm saying one who is saved knows they are currently saved/right with God/ransomed from the power of Satan to God.

2) Shepherd of Hermas confirms what the Book of Hebrews says, that there is really virtually only one repentance for the people of God which is supposed to happen at baptism. Yes a second repentance can happen as we see examples of the Judge giving some of the 7 Assemblies in Revelation a chance to repent for doing some wicked deeds, and also Paul mentions a man who was having his father's wife as having been delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit MIGHT be saved, and we know that later he was indeed restored to favor after a genuine repentance. Also the Angel of Repentance offers a chance to some to repent after they have fallen away too. But I've had lot's of chances. My conscience speaks to me that if I do such a deed that is wicked, like break my vows to my wife before God that I will most likely be given over to those twelve women in black in the Shepherd of Hermas which symbolize the fruits of apostasy. There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness, but for heathen repentance is possible till the last day. This was common teaching in the early Church. Tertullian talks about it too (though he went a bit too far I believe). I believe that it is dangerous to not accept Hermas as Scripture because it confirms how narrow the way is and what the correct interpretation of Hebrews 6 and 10 is. AT LEAST people should take it as true if not as Scripture equal with the Bible and heed the warnings. Even certain Orthodox in the Church have had prophecies that they received and people believe them to be from God even though they don't put them in the Bible. Even 1Clement, though not in the Bible, people would agree is true and useful for doctrine. It confirms that Protestants who believe in a priesthood for all believers only are in error. But the Bible alone can prove what I'm saying because it says the Anointed One died for past sins (Romans 3:25; 2Peter 1:9), not past, present and future, so that's how the Hebrews can say what it does.

Tony

1) This just totally reeks of the sin of presumption. Paul did not know he was saved, until right before he was about to be martyred for Christ. Before then he displays considerable disconfidence in his own salvation. If you walk around believing "if I die right now I will go to heaven", there is absolutely no room for faith or hope. It is prideful.

Besides, this belief just causes a sort of Calvinistic depression in people. What if you're not sure you're saved? Are you to take that to mean you aren't?

2) "There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness" - perhaps, but that's for God to decide and for him to know. You can't say "if I do this sin God will not save me." That is arrogantly believing that you know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways. And what are you supposed to do, if you end up doing that sin? Not beg for forgiveness, just kill yourself? No. Makes no sense.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 12:07:47 PM by Inquirer »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2014, 12:50:11 PM »
OK. So it was a misunderstanding. We are in agreement that "once saved, always saved" is a load of nonsense.

However, I still object to two notions: (1) that you KNOW that God will save your soul (where is there room for hope?), or that (2) you KNOW that God will NOT save your soul if you do something exceedingly heinous (who are you to decide whom God will save or not?).

Yes, OSAS is a lie of the Devil. I reject all Reformed doctrines of "salvation."

1) I'm not saying one who is saved knows God will save that one, that they will endure. I'm saying one who is saved knows they are currently saved/right with God/ransomed from the power of Satan to God.

2) Shepherd of Hermas confirms what the Book of Hebrews says, that there is really virtually only one repentance for the people of God which is supposed to happen at baptism. Yes a second repentance can happen as we see examples of the Judge giving some of the 7 Assemblies in Revelation a chance to repent for doing some wicked deeds, and also Paul mentions a man who was having his father's wife as having been delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit MIGHT be saved, and we know that later he was indeed restored to favor after a genuine repentance. Also the Angel of Repentance offers a chance to some to repent after they have fallen away too. But I've had lot's of chances. My conscience speaks to me that if I do such a deed that is wicked, like break my vows to my wife before God that I will most likely be given over to those twelve women in black in the Shepherd of Hermas which symbolize the fruits of apostasy. There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness, but for heathen repentance is possible till the last day. This was common teaching in the early Church. Tertullian talks about it too (though he went a bit too far I believe). I believe that it is dangerous to not accept Hermas as Scripture because it confirms how narrow the way is and what the correct interpretation of Hebrews 6 and 10 is. AT LEAST people should take it as true if not as Scripture equal with the Bible and heed the warnings. Even certain Orthodox in the Church have had prophecies that they received and people believe them to be from God even though they don't put them in the Bible. Even 1Clement, though not in the Bible, people would agree is true and useful for doctrine. It confirms that Protestants who believe in a priesthood for all believers only are in error. But the Bible alone can prove what I'm saying because it says the Anointed One died for past sins (Romans 3:25; 2Peter 1:9), not past, present and future, so that's how the Hebrews can say what it does.

Tony

1) This just totally reeks of the sin of presumption. Paul did not know he was saved, until right before he was about to be martyred for Christ. Before then he displays considerable disconfidence in his own salvation. If you walk around believing "if I die right now I will go to heaven", there is absolutely no room for faith or hope. It is prideful.

Besides, this belief just causes a sort of Calvinistic depression in people. What if you're not sure you're saved? Are you to take that to mean you aren't?

2) "There is appointed a day in which after someone sins he can have no more forgiveness" - perhaps, but that's for God to decide and for him to know. You can't say "if I do this sin God will not save me." That is arrogantly believing that you know the mind of God. His ways are not our ways. And what are you supposed to do, if you end up doing that sin? Not beg for forgiveness, just kill yourself? No. Makes no sense.

I'm sorry you disagree with the Word.

1) It's not presumption. Presumption would be something like OSAS. If someone has been delivered from bondage to sin, has been given a new life that they are walking in, is overcoming the world, has had their past sins remitted by the Blood, is pronounced justified/made righteous with God, how is that not being in the state of salvation? Yet the end is not yet and there is yet the Kingdom, which we do not yet see, to hope for.

"[23:1] And looking earnestly on the sanhedrin, Paul said, Men, brothers, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day."--Acts MKJV

Was Paul presumptuous here? And yet he also said,

"[4:3] But to me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by a man's day; but I do not judge my own self, [4:4] for I know nothing by myself. Yet I have not been justified by this, but He who judges me is [the] Lord. [4:5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall each one have praise of God."--1Corinthians MKJV

This has nothing to do with being prideful.

I know that I still have growing to do and getting to the end to do and that I must be fully conformed to his image. But I have confidence in God that he is getting me there right now, because when we work out our salvation with fear and trembling it is God energizing us. When one is forgiven it means they have been saved from their sins.

And just because one is not sure one is not saved doesn't mean they aren't either. They could still be saved. Feelings are not enough and are not always accurate (1John 3:20).

2) One should never in any circumstance kill their self, even if they have lost their salvation. Why would you want to go to hell sooner? And if you kill yourself your punishment will be worse for adding to your sin. We should still try to be restored to favour. Hermas gives us a hint that once we have lost it that we are given over to the 12 women in black. It is possible that I could be forgiven but I HIGHLY doubt it BECAUSE OF WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS.

"[12:15] looking diligently lest any fail of the grace of God, or lest any root of bitterness springing up disturb [you], and by it many are defiled, [12:16] (lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. [12:17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he did not find any place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears)."--Hebrews MKJV


I'm certainly not discouraging that one doesn't run to God's mercy seat if they have sinned. I would still do so and hope in his mercy if I sinned. We must understand the goodness and severity of God. Christians do have a higher accountability now though too since we have the truth of Christ, not like those in the OT who didn't know this truth in it's fulness as we do now.

Tony
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 12:59:13 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline Inquirer

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2014, 12:54:45 PM »
None of those quotations say anything close to "if you live faithfully as a Christian, you are guaranteed salvation".

I side with the Church, which has taught immutably that one cannot know if they will be eternally damned or saved until the moment God pronounces judgment upon them. Claiming to know what will happen to your soul the moment you die is presumption. Period.

Edit: in fact, your own quotation speaks against your position.

"[4:3] But to me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by a man's day; but I do not judge my own self, [4:4] for I know nothing by myself. Yet I have not been justified by this, but He who judges me is [the] Lord. [4:5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall each one have praise of God."--1Corinthians MKJV
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 12:57:20 PM by Inquirer »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2014, 01:21:09 PM »
None of those quotations say anything close to "if you live faithfully as a Christian, you are guaranteed salvation".

I side with the Church, which has taught immutably that one cannot know if they will be eternally damned or saved until the moment God pronounces judgment upon them. Claiming to know what will happen to your soul the moment you die is presumption. Period.

Edit: in fact, your own quotation speaks against your position.

"[4:3] But to me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by a man's day; but I do not judge my own self, [4:4] for I know nothing by myself. Yet I have not been justified by this, but He who judges me is [the] Lord. [4:5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall each one have praise of God."--1Corinthians MKJV

So according to you the Church doesn't agree with what the Church in Scripture says.

"[3:7] that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during."--Titus 3:7 YLT

Paul here says the believers HAVE ALREADY BEEN made right with God. So if you are right with God you are saved status. Yet after he says "that [...] we MAY become heirs according to the hope of everlasting life." And then yet again in Galatians 3:29 Paul says to the believers, "and if ye [are] of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs." (YLT)

Therefore you have a contradiction on your hands. Not me though because I believe both and live and speak according to both. I'm not saying we can be like God and know 100% what our judgment will be on that say. But I'm saying that God says that if we repent and believe in his Son and walk in his ways we are AND will be saved. This has nothing to do with knowing the guarantee of the future outcome, which belongs to YHWH.

"[8:16] The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."--Romans MKJV

Spirit bears witness to believers that they are children of God. Only children of God are saved. If someone is not a child of God, what is he? A child of the Devil. Children of the Devil are unsaved. But the children of God must endure till the end to be saved in which they will have 100% certainty having been judged worthy, if indeed they are.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2014, 01:28:32 PM »
Nothing in Scripture says that one will know for certainty that he will be saved if he dies at the moment, except Paul prior to his martyrdom.
Paul also says not to judge, even yourself, because that is God's domain.

You're lopping your own interpretation on Scripture. That's why we need the Church.
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2014, 01:30:11 PM »
Don't the Mormons also know with "100% certainty" that they are going to heaven?  How about the jihadists who blow themselves up? What about the Calvinists who are certained they are the elect?  Saying you know anything, particularly when it comes to faith, really means absolutely nothing.
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2014, 01:37:31 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2014, 01:42:07 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony

No, it's YOUR INTERPRETATION of God's Word. You do not speak Koine Greek fluently like the Fathers did, so I will assume the Fathers' interpretation is right and yours is not, when they are in contradiction.

The Church says salvation is a process of sanctification, becoming like God. Jesus' death justified all mankind and made us the children of God. So when the Bible says "you are saved", it is referring to the one-time Passion and Death of Christ. When it says "you are being saved", it is referring to the ongoing process whereby one works out their salvation in fear and trembling with faith, good works, and recourse to the Sacraments. When it says "you will be saved", it is referring to the final judgment of God that declares you an eternal denizen of Heaven and the New Jerusalem when you die, assuming God wills it.

In summary:
Bible: "You are saved" --> saved from ancestral Sin, thus have the possibility of going to heaven
Bible: "You are being saved" --> you are in the process of sanctification that if God brings to fruition, will result in your eternal salvation
Bible: "You will be saved" --> if God is sufficiently pleased with your sanctification, at your death God will not damn you.

Your interpretation reasonably fits with some of the Bible verses but leaves other verses inexplicable. The Church's interpretation accounts for all of it, because it is the Tradition handed on since the Apostles.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 01:46:41 PM by Inquirer »
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2014, 01:48:22 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony
How do you reconcile your beliefs with St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians where he says in 1:18:
Quote
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
God bless!

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2014, 01:57:20 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony
How do you reconcile your beliefs with St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians where he says in 1:18:
Quote
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


I refer you back to my rescue boat analogy.

Tony
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2014, 01:58:48 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony

No, it's YOUR INTERPRETATION of God's Word. You do not speak Koine Greek fluently like the Fathers did, so I will assume the Fathers' interpretation is right and yours is not, when they are in contradiction.

The Church says salvation is a process of sanctification, becoming like God. Jesus' death justified all mankind and made us the children of God. So when the Bible says "you are saved", it is referring to the one-time Passion and Death of Christ. When it says "you are being saved", it is referring to the ongoing process whereby one works out their salvation in fear and trembling with faith, good works, and recourse to the Sacraments. When it says "you will be saved", it is referring to the final judgment of God that declares you an eternal denizen of Heaven and the New Jerusalem when you die, assuming God wills it.

In summary:
Bible: "You are saved" --> saved from ancestral Sin, thus have the possibility of going to heaven
Bible: "You are being saved" --> you are in the process of sanctification that if God brings to fruition, will result in your eternal salvation
Bible: "You will be saved" --> if God is sufficiently pleased with your sanctification, at your death God will not damn you.

Your interpretation reasonably fits with some of the Bible verses but leaves other verses inexplicable. The Church's interpretation accounts for all of it, because it is the Tradition handed on since the Apostles.

I'm pretty sure you are wrong.

Tony
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Offline Inquirer

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2014, 02:02:16 PM »
It's not presumptuous because God's Word tells us it. If we didn't have God telling us we would be in presumption.

Okay so I need the Church to know that "you are having been saved" means, you are not saved yet wait until judgment day to find out? I mean it's a pretty direct statement. So are you saying you are not right with God? If so why?

Tony

No, it's YOUR INTERPRETATION of God's Word. You do not speak Koine Greek fluently like the Fathers did, so I will assume the Fathers' interpretation is right and yours is not, when they are in contradiction.

The Church says salvation is a process of sanctification, becoming like God. Jesus' death justified all mankind and made us the children of God. So when the Bible says "you are saved", it is referring to the one-time Passion and Death of Christ. When it says "you are being saved", it is referring to the ongoing process whereby one works out their salvation in fear and trembling with faith, good works, and recourse to the Sacraments. When it says "you will be saved", it is referring to the final judgment of God that declares you an eternal denizen of Heaven and the New Jerusalem when you die, assuming God wills it.

In summary:
Bible: "You are saved" --> saved from ancestral Sin, thus have the possibility of going to heaven
Bible: "You are being saved" --> you are in the process of sanctification that if God brings to fruition, will result in your eternal salvation
Bible: "You will be saved" --> if God is sufficiently pleased with your sanctification, at your death God will not damn you.

Your interpretation reasonably fits with some of the Bible verses but leaves other verses inexplicable. The Church's interpretation accounts for all of it, because it is the Tradition handed on since the Apostles.

I'm pretty sure you are wrong.

Tony

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God.

Several such verses like this express hope in salvation upon death, not an express guarantee that one will be saved.

Like I said. You cherry pick a few verses that fit your belief and say that I am contradicting the Word of God when I disagree with your explanation. However, the Church's explanation holds up to all of the verses of Scripture, whereas yours makes no sense in light of several of them.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 02:03:09 PM by Inquirer »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2014, 02:10:08 PM »
It seems to me if what you are saying is true then Paul shouldn't even have known he would be saved when he was almost finished his course and was ready to be martyred. He would have had to wait until judgment time.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2014, 02:15:41 PM »
It seems to me if what you are saying is true then Paul shouldn't even have known he would be saved when he was almost finished his course and was ready to be martyred. He would have had to wait until judgment time.

Tony

Yes, you're right. But this can be easily explained by saying that martyrdom is such an extraordinary act of holiness, that it in itself is an almost certain sign of eternal salvation. Or perhaps Paul had some divine vision which showed him his fate whilst he wrote his last epistle.

In any case we can see that this is something of an exception to the rest of the NT, since at no other point does he express any certitude whatsoever in his own salvation, and in fact expressly commends his readers to not judge themselves but wait for God's judgment.
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2014, 02:26:00 PM »
It seems to me if what you are saying is true then Paul shouldn't even have known he would be saved when he was almost finished his course and was ready to be martyred. He would have had to wait until judgment time.

Tony

Yes, you're right. But this can be easily explained by saying that martyrdom is such an extraordinary act of holiness, that it in itself is an almost certain sign of eternal salvation. Or perhaps Paul had some divine vision which showed him his fate whilst he wrote his last epistle.

In any case we can see that this is something of an exception to the rest of the NT, since at no other point does he express any certitude whatsoever in his own salvation, and in fact expressly commends his readers to not judge themselves but wait for God's judgment.

[9:26] So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as [one who] beats the air. [9:27] But I buffet my body, and lead [it] captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected."--1Corinthians MKJV

Paul ran with "CERTAINTY." He KNEW if he would do the will of God he would receive the "PROMISE." But he wasn't presumptuous to relax himself as if it was a done deal, he kept himself under guard lest he would be rejected because he threw away the promise by sinning because of allowing his lusts to be unbridled. 

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2014, 02:31:46 PM »
"Jesus' death justified all mankind and made us the children of God. So when the Bible says "you are saved", it is referring to the one-time Passion and Death of Christ."

Only righteous people who don't sin are children of God. Righteous people are saved because God says so. Not all mankind is justified and children of God. Only those who have repented and received him are. The Scriptures make it clear the world are children of the Devil under God's wrath, not justified; even though Jesus died for them, they must meet the requirements.

Tony
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #113 on: October 31, 2014, 02:41:18 PM »
"[6:11] and we desire each one of you the same diligence to shew, unto the full assurance of the hope unto the end,"--Hebrews YLT

Greek dictionary also says hope means EXPECTATION.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #114 on: October 31, 2014, 03:12:38 PM »
"[10:9] Because if you confess [the] Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from [the] dead, you will be saved."--Romans LITV

"WILL be saved." Not "might be saved."

"[6:23] For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord."--Romans LITV

"[11:29] For the free gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance."--Romans MKJV


God will not arbitrarily change his mind about our eternal life. He has made a "PROMISE." This is not OSAS and Irresistible Grace by Faith Alone though.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #115 on: October 31, 2014, 03:18:29 PM »
"[3:14] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love [his] brother abides in death. [3:15] Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him."--1John MKJV

"We HAVE passed from death to life." What type of life? Verse 15: The "everlasting life" that murderers don't have because they hate their brother.

Again 1John 5:13.

Now is all this according to OSAS? NO. There is endurance to be done if one once to enter into that life. There is still judgment to come.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2014, 04:08:48 AM »
Something dawned on me last night as I was meditating on the Scriptures about us "being saved." According to what you guys are saying, how do you even know you are "being saved?" How can one even be certain that God is saving them without being "presumptuous?" Maybe many people who believe God is saving them are really deluded and God isn't working with them at all because he isn't pleased with them enough, but because they "believe" and go to church or whatever religious ordinances they do, they think God is "saving" them, but really he might not even be doing that.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2014, 04:16:09 AM »
God died on the Cross, and in His dying He defeated death. It is a mystery, and we should leave it alone.


Selam
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2014, 04:19:41 AM »
"[20:6] Blessed and holy [is] he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years."--Revelation MKJV

Your own horribly inconsistent Amillennialist views also defeat you because you believe this first resurrection is about those who have been baptized into Christ, that have been buried with him in baptism and raised with him in newness of life. But here it says those who partake of the first resurrection the second death has no authority over them. But you say that it does possibly still since we don't know until the supposed second resurrection, or at least until we die, which isn't even then judgment day either by the way.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2014, 04:22:10 AM »
God died on the Cross, and in His dying He defeated death. It is a mystery, and we should leave it alone.


Selam

In some ways I actually agree with you because it seems we are adding much philosophy to this truth which doesn't really appear in Scripture, and doesn't come from revelation, but from men reasoning things out, and probably looking into things that they can't fully grasp.

Tony
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #120 on: November 01, 2014, 05:52:46 AM »
Tertullian said, "No one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end."

Does that mean that no one is a Christian? Or is Tertullian speaking about enduring till the end to show that he indeed without any doubt whatsoever is a Christian?

Ignatius when ready to be martyred said that now he was beginning to be a disciple. Does this mean he or others are not actually disciples? Or is this speaking of 100% certainty once someone bears witness in the arena of martyrdom without a doubt that one has had true faith?

I read some things from Orthodox writers online and it does not seem that they are speaking the same as you guys are.

I really don't see where I'm in error when I admit I have yet to endure and that if I died right now it is possible that I would not be worthy enough for eternal life, and that I have to fear and not become prideful. That I have growing to do. That I have worthiness to prove, especially considering my past deeds of evil. But if someone has been awakened to the truth of Christ and delivered from darkness to light and is living a new life in his Word, how is that not salvation? 

Tony
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 05:54:20 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2014, 09:49:15 AM »
I am done refuting your selective quoting of Scripture.

Here's all you need to know. God did not give us the Bible so we can figure out Christianity on our own. He gave us the Church (1 Tim 3:15), and promised Hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18-19). You can pick some Bible verses and say they fit your view, and they might seem as they do, but you have to ignore or rationalize other verses in order to avoid contradiction. The Orthodox view encompasses ALL of Scripture--and why is that? Because the Catholic/Orthodox WROTE the Bible, and handed on their teachings not just by words on paper, but also by tradition. The Church has sustained those traditions. Protestants have to invent their own understanding of Scripture.

Best wishes and God bless you.
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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #122 on: December 04, 2014, 05:56:09 AM »
I must fess up. When I was saying that I was saved, in the right with God, that God had pardoned me for all my past evils, that my repentance was sufficient, there was a part of me that wasn't 100% certain. But I had been doing quite well in my walk and so I convinced myself that I was, though another part of me was doubting, but I ignored it. I shouldn't have done that. So I confess and apologize for my bearing witness that is possibly false. I know it's probably not doing that much harm to you guys, so I first and foremost do so to God, for it his his name I did come in, and it is him who has authority over repentance, whether or not someone is right with him he knows.

I did this out of pride. Because of my ministry. Not wanting it to look bad. The ministry leader possibly not yet being forgiven for his past sins, and being clear with God for certain. It doesn't look too good, so I wanted it to be true that I was for certain now saved 100% as possible as one can be in this life. It was self-justification. A deadly thing that got me into trouble in the past, and I don't want to repeat this anymore.

Now, my beliefs about salvation still stand. And I believe that you guy's view contradicts not mine--just to be clear.

I also am still convinced that if I was to do that thing which I said before, that I would have no hope for repentance. I'm quite certain, it's strongly etched into my conscience. I believe I would be condemned. I believe God is not mocked and what a man sows he reaps.

This is hard to do because it is so humbling, but it is the right thing to do, which I always want to do, and thus I must do it, if I truly want to, and if I want to be accepted of the Righteous One.

I had asked God that if what I said was wrong, and if he wanted me to confess, then he should torment my conscience with conviction until I confess. In my procrastination, I was just about at the point where I was forgetting about it, and I think my conscience was being seared because I was not obeying it still, but it came to me now, and I realized this. So here I am doing so now, and I thank God for it. Blessed be the Lord.

Tony
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Question For Chalcedonians
« Reply #123 on: December 04, 2014, 05:49:13 PM »
Salvation is not something that we posess and can lose, it is something that we continually strive for throughout our life. Just to take your Ephesians verse. Paul does not say "for by grace were you saved", he says "for by grace ARE you saved". Salvation is in the present tense, because it is aways happening.

Trisagion,

As per my understanding of the Greek it literally says, "By grace you are having been saved." Meaning, by grace you exist in the state of having (already) been saved.

Tony
I am not at all a Greek scholar, so perhaps someone else can give a better answer, but the Greek word is ἐστε which is the second person plural present indicative of εἰμί (the word for "I am").  The word for "saved" is σεσῳσμένοι which translates to "save, resue heal". The actual literal translation would be "For by grace you (plural) are (present tense) rescued through faith..."

The ἐστε isn't the salient bit (as you say, it means "you-all are") -- the σεσῳσμένοι is. Σεσῳσμένοι is a participle, which were very fancy words in Greek, both declining and conjugating -- and having all kinds of uses. This one is in the passive mood and perfective aspect. At any rate -- I suppose a hyper-literal translation of the part in question could look like this: "You-all are ones having been preserved-alive by-means-of the trust" (the "ones" is more than implied, as the participle comprises a plural nominative). In my notes here, I have the whole sentence as: "Since by his favor you have been preserved alive; by means of trust, although this was not on your part: the gift of God is not a result of industry, lest one boast of oneself."
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:19:49 PM by Porter ODoran »
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