Author Topic: Pastor John Piper: “Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting God’s Work”  (Read 6966 times)

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Offline wainscottbl

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Oh and now I'm not having the problem. I'm on my phone at this moment.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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I was using Chrome on my phone. My computer has Internet Explorer, which stinks. But but it's a temporary one, so I'm not too worried about it. But yeah I'm on an android so I'm using  Chrome
Your posts aren't showing the problem, which leads me to believe that you're just boasting about having a problem you're not having just so you can dominate this discussion and draw all the attention to yourself. I'm not buying your shtick.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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I'm seriously asking Maria. How can you correct your vision without glasses? I mean I know you're into natural medicine, I'm not sure how glasses cause cancer or whatever.

Responding by PM to avoid derailing this thread.

Anyway, is this article from the OP satire or not?

Yes it is. There is a button ("Show Facts") that you can press that will highlight the parts of the article that are actually true while leaving the made-up ones unhighlighted.
How is this that when you reply to this thread, the "Re:" is removed from the Subject line? ???

It won't let me reply using the full title, because it has over 80 characters (I think). It tells me the title must have 80 or fewer characters. Removing the "Re:" part manually makes this warning go away and allows me to reply.
Are you trying to post from your mobile device? I've never run into this restriction either on my desktop PC or my cell phone.

No, it's my desktop PC, not a mobile device. It's weird that it keeps happening to me but not you.
What browser are you using?

Internet Explorer.
I just tried it on Internet Explorer. Yeah, I'm seeing the same problem. It's an IE thing. I don't get the problem with Waterfox (the 64-bit version of Firefox) or Chrome, though.
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Offline Maria

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I'm seriously asking Maria. How can you correct your vision without glasses? I mean I know you're into natural medicine, I'm not sure how glasses cause cancer or whatever.

Responding by PM to avoid derailing this thread.

Anyway, is this article from the OP satire or not?

Yes it is. There is a button ("Show Facts") that you can press that will highlight the parts of the article that are actually true while leaving the made-up ones unhighlighted.
How is this that when you reply to this thread, the "Re:" is removed from the Subject line? ???

It won't let me reply using the full title, because it has over 80 characters (I think). It tells me the title must have 80 or fewer characters. Removing the "Re:" part manually makes this warning go away and allows me to reply.
Are you trying to post from your mobile device? I've never run into this restriction either on my desktop PC or my cell phone.

No, it's my desktop PC, not a mobile device. It's weird that it keeps happening to me but not you.
What browser are you using?

Internet Explorer.
I just tried it on Internet Explorer Exploder. Yeah, I'm seeing the same problem. It's an IE thing. I don't get the problem with Waterfox (the 64-bit version of Firefox) or Chrome, though.

FIFY
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline wainscottbl

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I was using Chrome on my phone. My computer has Internet Explorer, which stinks. But but it's a temporary one, so I'm not too worried about it. But yeah I'm on an android so I'm using  Chrome
Your posts aren't showing the problem, which leads me to believe that you're just boasting about having a problem you're not having just so you can dominate this discussion and draw all the attention to yourself. I'm not buying your shtick.

They were, so I was showing that it may stop eventually.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



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Offline PeterTheAleut

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I'm seriously asking Maria. How can you correct your vision without glasses? I mean I know you're into natural medicine, I'm not sure how glasses cause cancer or whatever.

Responding by PM to avoid derailing this thread.

Anyway, is this article from the OP satire or not?

Yes it is. There is a button ("Show Facts") that you can press that will highlight the parts of the article that are actually true while leaving the made-up ones unhighlighted.
How is this that when you reply to this thread, the "Re:" is removed from the Subject line? ???

It won't let me reply using the full title, because it has over 80 characters (I think). It tells me the title must have 80 or fewer characters. Removing the "Re:" part manually makes this warning go away and allows me to reply.
Are you trying to post from your mobile device? I've never run into this restriction either on my desktop PC or my cell phone.

No, it's my desktop PC, not a mobile device. It's weird that it keeps happening to me but not you.
What browser are you using?

Internet Explorer.
I just tried it on Internet Explorer Exploder. Yeah, I'm seeing the same problem. It's an IE thing. I don't get the problem with Waterfox (the 64-bit version of Firefox) or Chrome, though.

FIFY
Hey, I actually like IE. Microsoft has done a lot of work to improve their product so that it's right up there with Firefox/Waterfox and Chrome.

That said, I believe Minnesotan and I have identified the root cause of his posting problem, which is all I set out to do with my tangent. I'm therefore not going to drive this tangent any longer.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 03:19:13 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline wainscottbl

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If you run into the problem again, just remember to wax the subject line.  :P
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Pastor John Piper: “Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2015, 05:04:42 AM »
while Piper does indeed oppose cosmetic surgery,. .

That's enough reason to lie about him.  ;) Actually, I believe I read that people thought John Swift's "A Modest Proposal" seriously. For those not in the know, that is where a man (Swift, writing satire) proposes that to end famine, infants should be eaten, explaining the tenderness of their flesh and the whole works of why little babies make good meals. Granted, they may have taken the writer for madman, but they thought he was earnest in his "modest" proposal. Not always easy to spot satire.  ;)

Indeed, since the Chinese have eaten and apparently still do serve meals using aborted babies, that kind of satire could be mistaken.

According to our father among the saints, my beloved St. Epiphanius of Salamis, whose prayers I seek, the Gnostic sect known as the Borborites or "Mud people" in Syria engaged in precisely this practice.  The interpretation of the Gnostic faith and in particular their blasphemous form of the Eucharist made this horror a regular occurrence.  St. Epiphanius expresses great pains at having to describe the Borborites transgressions, but justifies himself on the grounds that Moses commands a murder to be reported.  See Volume I of the Panarion.  Swift being well educated may have been familiar with this work, although I believe St. Epiphanius was rather obscure in Western Europe until the 19th century.

Regarding the root subject matter however Rev. Piper seems to be playing the hypocrite, and dancing with the devil, in that he mentions that which ought not to be mentioned, or even enter into a conversation of morality, while his argument against cosmetic surgery or shavin is negated by his clean cut appearance.  This kimd of half baked thinking is becoming increasingly common in some Fundamentalist circles; these people lamentably cannot form a logically consistent theological argument and thus make their children vulnerable tomapostasy at the hands of atheists, Muslims and others capable of articulating a belief system coherently and without glaring self contradiction.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Pastor John Piper: “Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
while Piper does indeed oppose cosmetic surgery,. .

That's enough reason to lie about him.  ;) Actually, I believe I read that people thought John Swift's "A Modest Proposal" seriously. For those not in the know, that is where a man (Swift, writing satire) proposes that to end famine, infants should be eaten, explaining the tenderness of their flesh and the whole works of why little babies make good meals. Granted, they may have taken the writer for madman, but they thought he was earnest in his "modest" proposal. Not always easy to spot satire.  ;)

Indeed, since the Chinese have eaten and apparently still do serve meals using aborted babies, that kind of satire could be mistaken.

According to our father among the saints, my beloved St. Epiphanius of Salamis, whose prayers I seek, the Gnostic sect known as the Borborites or "Mud people" in Syria engaged in precisely this practice.  The interpretation of the Gnostic faith and in particular their blasphemous form of the Eucharist made this horror a regular occurrence.  St. Epiphanius expresses great pains at having to describe the Borborites transgressions, but justifies himself on the grounds that Moses commands a murder to be reported.  See Volume I of the Panarion.  Swift being well educated may have been familiar with this work, although I believe St. Epiphanius was rather obscure in Western Europe until the 19th century.

Regarding the root subject matter however Rev. Piper seems to be playing the hypocrite, and dancing with the devil, in that he mentions that which ought not to be mentioned, or even enter into a conversation of morality, while his argument against cosmetic surgery or shavin is negated by his clean cut appearance.  This kimd of half baked thinking is becoming increasingly common in some Fundamentalist circles; these people lamentably cannot form a logically consistent theological argument and thus make their children vulnerable tomapostasy at the hands of atheists, Muslims and others capable of articulating a belief system coherently and without glaring self contradiction.
Have you really read the essay in its original form and not with all the satirical BS added to it?
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Offline wgw

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My remark was based on the quotations of him provided in the article linked to in the OP...were those quotations falsified?
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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My remark was based on the quotations of him provided in the article linked to in the OP...were those quotations falsified?
Apparently, some of them were. Have you not been reading how the site linked in the OP added their own fictional interpolations for satire?
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Offline wgw

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My remark was based on the quotations of him provided in the article linked to in the OP...were those quotations falsified?
Apparently, some of them were. Have you not been reading how the site linked in the OP added their own fictional interpolations for satire?

No, I missed that part, I was primarily responding to Maria's cannibalism bit.  But if anyone slandered Rev. Piper in that way, shame on them, and shame on me for commenting on their falsehood.   I fear I have just engaged in "idle talk."
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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My remark was based on the quotations of him provided in the article linked to in the OP...were those quotations falsified?
Apparently, some of them were. Have you not been reading how the site linked in the OP added their own fictional interpolations for satire?

No, I missed that part, I was primarily responding to Maria's cannibalism bit.  But if anyone slandered Rev. Piper in that way, shame on them,
Satire isn't slander.

and shame on me for commenting on their falsehood.   I fear I have just engaged in "idle talk."
Well, you did just talk about something of which you know nothing. ;)
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Offline wainscottbl

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Quote
Satire isn slander




Usually not, but it can be. If it harms the name of the subject of the parody, it can be, if in the eyes of the reasonable person reading it, it injures the name, they not knowing it us satire. I did not until that was pointed out. But all this is a bit of a tangent.

As for the pretended words of the preacher, etc. The question of where and where are we not able to change our God given bodies. There is.truth in the principle. Plastic surgery is often more vanity than a sin against nature like sex change, which the apostolic canons strictly forbid. I suppose you might be able to say unnecessary plastic surgery does that. The canon was written against castration and tattoos, but plastic surgery is often not done.for necessity. But I think that is too unclear about the sins against nature, like cutting the flesh for castration. That is outright evil. But plastic surgery cuts the body in a loosely similar way to castration. It permanently alters the body. But that is why Orthodoxy does.not gave independent.preachers, but declares on these matters by the inspiration nof the Spirit.
 
Here us something from OCA on the issue

https://oca.org/questions/society/cosmetic-surgery


« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:09:48 AM by wainscottbl »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Quote
Satire isn slander




Usually not, but it can be. If it harms the name of the subject of the parody, it can be, if in the eyes of the reasonable person reading it, it injures the name, they not knowing it us satire. I did not until that was pointed out. But all this is a bit of a tangent.

As for the pretended words of the preacher, etc. The question of where and where are we not able to change our God given bodies. There is.truth in the principle. Plastic surgery is often more vanity than a sin against nature like sex change, which the apostolic canons strictly forbid. I suppose you might be able to say unnecessary plastic surgery does that. The canon was written against castration and tattoos, but plastic surgery is often not done.for necessity. But I think that is too unclear about the sins against nature, like cutting the flesh for castration. That is outright evil. But plastic surgery cuts the body in a loosely similar way to castration. It permanently alters the body. But that is why Orthodoxy does.not gave independent.preachers, but declares on these matters by the inspiration nof the Spirit.
 
Here us something from OCA on the issue

https://oca.org/questions/society/cosmetic-surgery
Which of the Apostolic Canons strictly forbids a sex change? ???
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Offline wainscottbl

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Quote
Satire isn slander




Usually not, but it can be. If it harms the name of the subject of the parody, it can be, if in the eyes of the reasonable person reading it, it injures the name, they not knowing it us satire. I did not until that was pointed out. But all this is a bit of a tangent.

As for the pretended words of the preacher, etc. The question of where and where are we not able to change our God given bodies. There is.truth in the principle. Plastic surgery is often more vanity than a sin against nature like sex change, which the apostolic canons strictly forbid. I suppose you might be able to say unnecessary plastic surgery does that. The canon was written against castration and tattoos, but plastic surgery is often not done.for necessity. But I think that is too unclear about the sins against nature, like cutting the flesh for castration. That is outright evil. But plastic surgery cuts the body in a loosely similar way to castration. It permanently alters the body. But that is why Orthodoxy does.not gave independent.preachers, but declares on these matters by the inspiration nof the Spirit.
 
Here us something from OCA on the issue

https://oca.org/questions/society/cosmetic-surgery
Which of the Apostolic Canons strictly forbids a sex change? ???
 

The one that forbids self mutilation, namely castration. I don't have a computer right now and may not for a while, but I'll try to find the canon. The way I found out actually as I was looking up the position on tattoos. Now strictly speaking the canon may not be speaking against today's idea transgenderism, but it did directly forbid castration, I assume because it was common enough practice in the day in certain circles at least. And it is the equivalent of a sex change in the modern world. But being so legalistic with whether it is against the canon to have plastic surgery is nnot the best way to go about it. I think OCA in the link does so best. I noted it more as curious fact, and because unlike in Protestantism these opinions don't have to be just pulled out of a hat by some obscure preacher.
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Offline jah777

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Piper: Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting God’s Work

Protestant Pete:  Didn't Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3)

Piper:  That's not what Jesus was talking about.

Protestant Pete:  That's your opinion.  This is what it means to me.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Piper: Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting God’s Work

Protestant Pete:  Didn't Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3)

Piper:  That's not what Jesus was talking about.

Protestant Pete:  That's your opinion.  This is what it means to me.
That is so bad, but it made me ROFL!  :laugh:
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If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline wainscottbl

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Piper: Women Who Wax Their Private Parts Are Hurting God’s Work

Protestant Pete:  Didn't Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3)

Piper:  That's not what Jesus was talking about.

Protestant Pete:  That's your opinion.  This is what it means to me.

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Offline wgw

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Quote
Satire isn slander




Usually not, but it can be. If it harms the name of the subject of the parody, it can be, if in the eyes of the reasonable person reading it, it injures the name, they not knowing it us satire. I did not until that was pointed out. But all this is a bit of a tangent.

As for the pretended words of the preacher, etc. The question of where and where are we not able to change our God given bodies. There is.truth in the principle. Plastic surgery is often more vanity than a sin against nature like sex change, which the apostolic canons strictly forbid. I suppose you might be able to say unnecessary plastic surgery does that. The canon was written against castration and tattoos, but plastic surgery is often not done.for necessity. But I think that is too unclear about the sins against nature, like cutting the flesh for castration. That is outright evil. But plastic surgery cuts the body in a loosely similar way to castration. It permanently alters the body. But that is why Orthodoxy does.not gave independent.preachers, but declares on these matters by the inspiration nof the Spirit.
 
Here us something from OCA on the issue

https://oca.org/questions/society/cosmetic-surgery
Which of the Apostolic Canons strictly forbids a sex change? ???

Canon I of Nicea prohibits castrated men from being ordained as they are "self murderers"; this was copied from an Apostolic Canon, I forget which one.  Sex changes until they can be done without destroying the reproductive faculty are thus uncanonical (a transman will experience sexual pleasure after his operation, but will not be able in most cases to impregnate a bona fode female, nor will (s)he be able to bear children given the current state of the art.   The penalty however is mere disqualification from holy orders.   The same penalty would also apply to soemone who had a vasectomy.  However, if someone is castrated against their will or is born without reproductive ability they are not debarred from Holy Orders under this canon.
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But the Apostolic Canons were written after the First Ecumenical Council took place... ???

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Quote
Satire isn slander




Usually not, but it can be. If it harms the name of the subject of the parody, it can be, if in the eyes of the reasonable person reading it, it injures the name, they not knowing it us satire. I did not until that was pointed out. But all this is a bit of a tangent.

As for the pretended words of the preacher, etc. The question of where and where are we not able to change our God given bodies. There is.truth in the principle. Plastic surgery is often more vanity than a sin against nature like sex change, which the apostolic canons strictly forbid. I suppose you might be able to say unnecessary plastic surgery does that. The canon was written against castration and tattoos, but plastic surgery is often not done.for necessity. But I think that is too unclear about the sins against nature, like cutting the flesh for castration. That is outright evil. But plastic surgery cuts the body in a loosely similar way to castration. It permanently alters the body. But that is why Orthodoxy does.not gave independent.preachers, but declares on these matters by the inspiration nof the Spirit.
 
Here us something from OCA on the issue

https://oca.org/questions/society/cosmetic-surgery
Which of the Apostolic Canons strictly forbids a sex change? ???

Canon I of Nicea prohibits castrated men from being ordained as they are "self murderers"; this was copied from an Apostolic Canon, I forget which one.  Sex changes until they can be done without destroying the reproductive faculty are thus uncanonical (a transman will experience sexual pleasure after his operation, but will not be able in most cases to impregnate a bona fode female, nor will (s)he be able to bear children given the current state of the art.   The penalty however is mere disqualification from holy orders.   The same penalty would also apply to soemone who had a vasectomy.  However, if someone is castrated against their will or is born without reproductive ability they are not debarred from Holy Orders under this canon.
You are aware that canons are interpreted? You are aware, therefore, that you're interpreting those canons to forbid sex changes and vasectomies? On what authority do you interpret those canons as you do?
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Offline wgw

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My interpretation of course carries no weight since I am not a bishop, and bishops traditionally interpret these canons and apply them (with exactnesss, or economy, and in a manner they deem prudent).  However I believe that any bishop who has need of canonical backing regarding, for example, the ineligibility of voluntarily castrated persons for holy orders, has everything they need in Canon I of Nicea.

As an odd aside, I would note that Canon I seems to be the opening round against Origen, whose sepf castration was noted by his professed admirerer Eusebius of Caesarea, who in turn interestingly was the one bishop out of the 318 who acted with reservations and is historically regarded as indifferent on Arianism or a soft Arian himself.  One cannot help but wonder if people discussing Origen's castration and whether it was coerced, voluntary or semi voluntary had an impact on the creation of this canon.  I would appreciate if anyone knows of any good, extensive, English language resources on the history of Nicene canonical legislation.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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My interpretation of course carries no weight since I am not a bishop, and bishops traditionally interpret these canons and apply them (with exactnesss, or economy, and in a manner they deem prudent).  However I believe that any bishop who has need of canonical backing regarding, for example, the ineligibility of voluntarily castrated persons for holy orders, has everything they need in Canon I of Nicea.

As an odd aside, I would note that Canon I seems to be the opening round against Origen, whose sepf castration was noted by his professed admirerer Eusebius of Caesarea, who in turn interestingly was the one bishop out of the 318 who acted with reservations and is historically regarded as indifferent on Arianism or a soft Arian himself.  One cannot help but wonder if people discussing Origen's castration and whether it was coerced, voluntary or semi voluntary had an impact on the creation of this canon.  I would appreciate if anyone knows of any good, extensive, English language resources on the history of Nicene canonical legislation.
That odd aside was totally unnecessary and contributes nothing to this thread.
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Offline Asteriktos

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That odd aside was totally unnecessary and contributes nothing to this thread.

Besides being inaccurate. But now I am doing an off topic response to an off topic response to an off topic aside 8)

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What about people who get wax removed from their ears?

Wax is wax.  :(
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My interpretation of course carries no weight since I am not a bishop, and bishops traditionally interpret these canons and apply them (with exactnesss, or economy, and in a manner they deem prudent).  However I believe that any bishop who has need of canonical backing regarding, for example, the ineligibility of voluntarily castrated persons for holy orders, has everything they need in Canon I of Nicea.

As an odd aside, I would note that Canon I seems to be the opening round against Origen, whose sepf castration was noted by his professed admirerer Eusebius of Caesarea, who in turn interestingly was the one bishop out of the 318 who acted with reservations and is historically regarded as indifferent on Arianism or a soft Arian himself.  One cannot help but wonder if people discussing Origen's castration and whether it was coerced, voluntary or semi voluntary had an impact on the creation of this canon.  I would appreciate if anyone knows of any good, extensive, English language resources on the history of Nicene canonical legislation.
That odd aside was totally unnecessary and contributes nothing to this thread.

My apologies; I tried to shoot that out to tie into the origins of the general antipathy we seem to have towards mutilation of the body in the Orthodpx Church but did so too indirectly.

But on my main reaponse, discarding the failed aside, the first paragraph, do you grasp my point there?  In other words I presume no authority to interpret and my interpretations have no weight.  However I believe a bishop needing canonical rationale to uphold the non ordination of mutilators of any aprt would logocally go to this canon, which I think can be clearly interpreted as applying to persons who willingly allowed their reproductive capability to be destroyed, which was defined as "self murder."
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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What about people who get wax removed from their ears?

Wax is wax.  :(
What about people who wax eloquent on things they know nothing about. After all, wax is wax. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Arachne

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What about people who get wax removed from their ears?

Wax is wax.  :(
What about people who wax eloquent on things they know nothing about. After all, wax is wax. ;)



Good to see we're back on the right level. :P
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Offline Minnesotan

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This thread has really gotten out of wax.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Maria

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This thread has really gotten out of wax.

Soon there will be no more bee's wax.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pastor John Piper Is At It Again
« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2015, 12:28:14 AM »
Unlike the article about waxing, this article is no joke. John Piper was interviewed about Mark Driscoll's personal problems and described the implosion of Mars Hill as a "tactical defeat for the Gospel", much like the "tactical defeat" Christianity is suffering in the Middle East.

Yikes.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 12:42:34 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Pastor John Piper Is At It Again
« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2015, 12:40:10 AM »
describe the implosion of Mars Hill as a "tactical defeat for the Gospel"
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 12:40:46 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Pope Francis
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