Author Topic: Liturgy of St. James  (Read 2348 times)

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Offline SetFree

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Liturgy of St. James
« on: May 17, 2005, 01:13:20 PM »
I know that some Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions (including the British Orthodox Church),  Use the Liturgy of St. James.  Does this Liturgy still have the Hymn "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence?" And can anyone provide the text for it???  The only version I've heard is the modified Picardy version sung by Fernando Ortega on his album storm.

Also, Is it still about four hours long, and is it ever prayed in English???
Thanks,
Adrian Davila
At His Feet The Six-Winged Seraph, Cherubim, With Sleepless Eye, Veil Their Faces To His Presence As With Ceasless Voice They Cry:ÂÂ  Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!ÂÂ  Lord Most High! --From the Liturgy of St. James (Translated by Gerard Moultrie)

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 08:04:24 PM »
Adrian Davila,

The Eastern Orthodox "version" of this liturgy certainly still has this hymn.  I'm not sure about the Oriental Orthodox version.  I think the Byzantine rendering of this litrugy is paired down a great deal compared to the Oriental usage, if I'm not mistaken, so I can't tell you where to find the Oriental text of the liturgy.

Bob
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Offline Stephen Barrow

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 08:56:42 PM »
Christ Is Risen!

Let all mortal flesh keep silent and in fear and trembling stand, pondering nothing earthly-minded. For the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords comes to be slain, to give himself as food to the faithful.

Before him go the ranks of angels: all the principalities and powers, the many-eyed cherubim and the six-winged seraphim, covering their faces, singing the hymn: Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

This hymn also replaces the Cherubic Hymn at the Liturgy of St. Basil on Holy Saturday.

Offline CopticDeacon

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2014, 07:19:48 AM »
This is super old but I know the British rite still has Let all mortal flesh keep silent.  Not sure about Syriac/Malankara but I think not. Copts haven't used the Liturgy of Saint James in maybe 60 -70 years.
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Offline qawe

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015, 03:14:01 AM »
Copts haven't used the Liturgy of Saint James in maybe 60 -70 years.

Did we previously use this liturgy? Do you have a source for this? Thanks.
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Offline CopticDeacon

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 06:54:11 AM »
Copts haven't used the Liturgy of Saint James in maybe 60 -70 years.

Did we previously use this liturgy? Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

Qawe. I know we did. But I don't know which rite it was closer to. No source as of this moment but if you look in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church's liturgy book it contains every anaphora we used to use because we were the mother church. They were not influenced by HH Pope Shenouda III's decision to limit the liturgies down to 3. Perhaps they were granted autocephaly by then.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 06:55:16 AM by CopticDeacon »
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Offline qawe

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2015, 07:28:52 AM »
Copts haven't used the Liturgy of Saint James in maybe 60 -70 years.

Did we previously use this liturgy? Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

Qawe. I know we did. But I don't know which rite it was closer to. No source as of this moment but if you look in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church's liturgy book it contains every anaphora we used to use because we were the mother church. They were not influenced by HH Pope Shenouda III's decision to limit the liturgies down to 3. Perhaps they were granted autocephaly by then.

I don't think it follows that we used to use all of the Ethiopian liturgies, just because we were the mother church.  Eg we never had the books of Enoch or Jubilees in our Scriptural canon.

And if it was Pope Shenouda's decision to limit it to 3 liturgies (I've read this before too), then why do you say "60-70 years"?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline CopticDeacon

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2015, 07:41:14 AM »
Copts haven't used the Liturgy of Saint James in maybe 60 -70 years.

Did we previously use this liturgy? Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

Qawe. I know we did. But I don't know which rite it was closer to. No source as of this moment but if you look in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church's liturgy book it contains every anaphora we used to use because we were the mother church. They were not influenced by HH Pope Shenouda III's decision to limit the liturgies down to 3. Perhaps they were granted autocephaly by then.

I don't think it follows that we used to use all of the Ethiopian liturgies, just because we were the mother church.  Eg we never had the books of Enoch or Jubilees in our Scriptural canon.

And if it was Pope Shenouda's decision to limit it to 3 liturgies (I've read this before too), then why do you say "60-70 years"?


Because many of those liturgies were seldom used by Pope Kyrillos' VI's time, but still available as a liturgy that a coptic priest can pray. Pope Shenouda III actually made it so that only the 3 church available can be prayed.

I would make a distinction between scriptural canon and liturgical practices.  I just wouldn't clarify them together. I have read in a handful of sources that I haven't seen recently that this is how I have relayed it to you. Some of those sources were written by priests and approved by the bishop of their diocese.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2015, 03:31:44 PM »
Some of the Ethiopian Anaphoras are original compositions and quite late at that, I don't think the Copts ever used those.
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2015, 04:54:15 PM »
The British Orthodox use the 20th-century English composer Ralph Vaughan Williams's adaptation of that hymn. It can be found here in their text of the Liturgy of St. James, if you scroll down to "The Great Entrance". They also use other such later adaptations of traditional hymns, as with "O Word Immortal" (an adaptation of "Only-Begotten Son").

Offline wgw

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 07:21:16 AM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.
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Offline qawe

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2015, 06:45:41 AM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2015, 03:43:04 PM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.

Huh?
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Offline qawe

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2015, 10:30:53 AM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.

Huh?

OK, Mor, I agree it is reconcilable if we understand "Faith - Christian" to be synonymous with Orthodoxy, but I highly doubt that was the poster's intended meaning.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2015, 03:08:52 PM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.

Huh?

OK, Mor, I agree it is reconcilable if we understand "Faith - Christian" to be synonymous with Orthodoxy, but I highly doubt that was the poster's intended meaning.

I'm not sure I understand your intended meaning. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline qawe

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2015, 10:36:47 PM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.

Huh?

OK, Mor, I agree it is reconcilable if we understand "Faith - Christian" to be synonymous with Orthodoxy, but I highly doubt that was the poster's intended meaning.

I'm not sure I understand your intended meaning. 

When someone writes that their faith is Christian and jurisdiction is Orthodox, this implies that the Christian faith is some lowest common denominator collection of ideas.

Whereas the Orthodox position would be Christianity is Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy is Christianity (ie if it is not Orthodox, it is not Christian in the proper sense)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2015, 11:48:32 PM »
I readmit limitation to the three liturgies occurred around the year 1,000.  If you have a source CopticDeacon, or better yet, a reference to an old service book (and still better yet, English translations of the above) I would be thrilled.

Your profile description "Faith - Christian, Jurisdiction - Orthodox" is irreconcilable with Orthodox ecclesiology.

Huh?

OK, Mor, I agree it is reconcilable if we understand "Faith - Christian" to be synonymous with Orthodoxy, but I highly doubt that was the poster's intended meaning.

I'm not sure I understand your intended meaning.  

When someone writes that their faith is Christian and jurisdiction is Orthodox, this implies that the Christian faith is some lowest common denominator collection of ideas.

Whereas the Orthodox position would be Christianity is Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy is Christianity (ie if it is not Orthodox, it is not Christian in the proper sense)
Methinks you're reading far too much into the information wgw has chosen to reveal about himself. Rather than judge wgw on the implications you read into his words, wouldn't it be better to just ask him what he means and withhold judgment until you have received his response? Even better yet: don't make a big deal of it.

Besides, your line of haranguing is off topic.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 11:54:50 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Liturgy of St. James
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2015, 11:58:29 PM »
OK, guys, let's stop talking about faith and jurisdiction, and get back to the OP, which is:

Quote
I know that some Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions (including the British Orthodox Church),  Use the Liturgy of St. James.  Does this Liturgy still have the Hymn "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence?" And can anyone provide the text for it???  The only version I've heard is the modified Picardy version sung by Fernando Ortega on his album storm.

Also, Is it still about four hours long, and is it ever prayed in English???
Thanks,
Adrian Davila