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Author Topic: Thoughts on the Newsweek article  (Read 12833 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: May 17, 2005, 09:11:39 AM »

I thought it very interesting that the entire world was up in arms over the Newsweek article alleging that a Koran was flushed down the toilet as a means of interrogation.

Now, let me get this straight... it creates world outrage (and a typical violent Islamic reaction) when Newsweek publishes (an apparently false) story about flushing the Islamic Holy book down a toilet, but when Albanian Islamic Extremists fire bomb hundreds of Orthodox Churches, it goes unnoticed.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Furthermore, I've heard many (on tv) give the line, "well 'if' they did flush the Koran, it would be despicable".  Hold on, hold on... flushing the Koran is despicable, but State Sponsored destruction of Holy Orthodox buildings and locations is not?

If flushing a Koran down a toilet warranted the reaction that it got from Muslims around the world, than what is the *warranted* reaction for Orthodox Christians who have had more than 300 Churchs destroyed in Kosovo?
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 09:22:40 AM »

I thought it very interesting that the entire world was up in arms over the Newsweek article alleging that a Koran was flushed down the toilet as a means of interrogation.

Now, let me get this straight... it creates world outrage (and a typical violent Islamic reaction) when Newsweek publishes (an apparently false) story about flushing the Islamic Holy book down a toilet, but when Albanian Islamic Extremists fire bomb hundreds of Orthodox Churches, it goes unnoticed.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Furthermore, I've heard many (on tv) give the line, "well 'if' they did flush the Koran, it would be despicable". Hold on, hold on... flushing the Koran is despicable, but State Sponsored destruction of Holy Orthodox buildings and locations is not?

If flushing a Koran down a toilet warranted the reaction that it got from Muslims around the world, than what is the *warranted* reaction for Orthodox Christians who have had more than 300 Churchs destroyed in Kosovo?

You are, of course, absolutely right. Unfortunately in the west right now it's fashionable to bash Christianity in any form and, apparently, particularly if it's Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. If you criticise Islam, however, or any other non-Christian religion then you're an intolerant, despicable bigot - even if your criticism is of the faith alone and not individual believers. Sometimes I think that the only people who are fair game for criticism now are traditional Christians (because, of course, we're all bigots anyway, aren't we?).

James
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 10:33:06 AM »

I pound this to death, but it's really about the perception of reality.  Mass media makes a particular view of the world "real" by repeating it over and over until it becomes hyperreal - a reality that cannot be challenged.

The fact that Newsweek was called on the carpet for it is quite amazing, but many will claim that the original story was correct and that the government forced a retraction.  That's a fairy tale, but Pacifica will sell it in the U.S.
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 11:05:01 AM »

I'm sure the original story was correct. And I have no problem with that.
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 11:22:20 AM »

Tom,

     My point is, even if you think the story is correct, put the two situations in perspective.

Flushing a Koran vs. The destruction of Hundreds of Churches.

James,

The only thing I (slightly) disgree with, is equating opinion against the RCC and the Orthodox Church.  Here is why... much of the backlash against the RCC (at least recently) as a result of the actions of the clergy (molestation scandal).  Thus, the appropriate response would be a critique of the Church and how it handled the situation because the scandal (and hence the criticism) was directly related to the Church.

If you subscribe to the opinion that Serbs are everything we're made out to be, it still does not justify actions  or a negative opinion against the Church. 

There is no parallel between the RCC and the SOC in this regard.  The "bad actors" in the RCC were the clergy.  Whereas if you are going to lay the blame on any Serbs, it would have to be at the hands of Politicians (many of whom are admittedly atheist).
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 03:26:55 PM »

This just in............



Sun Rises in the East...........Infuriates Islamists.






We report the news as it breaks......... :cat:
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 03:47:03 PM »

You know, when I first heard the story, I started to think of the "artistic" depiction of the Blessed Mother in horse dung (here in a NYC museum a few years back).

I thought (for about 1/2 a second) that this was a classic example of the terrible double standard... but then I thought... WAIT A MINUTE.... forget about the piece of crap art (pardon the pun)... what about our Churches...  the  world just doesn't get it.

By the way.  Today's front page in the New York Post...

HOLY SHIITE!
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2005, 04:08:15 PM »


Christos Voskrisye!!!

My dear brothers.  It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion.  How would we as Orthodoxy feel if a beautiful gospel was so publicly defaced? But more. Let us write a combined, concerted letter to all Patriarchs, petitions to come up in defense of all those defaced and destroyed churches in Serbia, Greece, and Kurdistan.  All other places where Orthodoxy has been made to suffer. Perhaps the trouble with us is the fact that, for all these centuries, we have been used to this kind of thing on one or another level. But, as human respect for what belongs to God becomes cold, and dies, we must expect only more persecution.  Let us forget about jurisdictions, nationalities, and call upon our most Pure and Blessed Mother, and the Holy Trinity together, as on truly Catholic, and Apostolic Church and

Gospodi Pomiloi, Prisvitaya Bogoroditsa !
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 02:59:33 AM »

Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran

 KABUL: At least three hundred Ulema in Afghanistan have demanded the US that those responsible for the desecration of the Holy Quran at Guantanamo Bay must be handed over in three days otherwise a Jihad would be launched against the US.

The demand was issued after a gathering at a mosque in the Faizabad city of the Badekshan province. The Ulema said that they want that President Bush must deal with this matter in the most sincere way possible and must hand over those responsible for this incident to a Muslim country.

After the revelation of an incident of the desecration of the Holy Quran in a US magazine protests are going on in Afghanistan in which 16 people have been killed while more then 100 have been injured.

Source: http://www.geo.tv/main_files/world.aspx?id=76649

My Comments: ha ha ha.....................................(Ive said enough about Islam on this forum - I've made my position quite clear I believe).

Peace.
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 03:48:04 AM »

James,

The only thing I (slightly) disgree with, is equating opinion against the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Here is why... much of the backlash against the RCC (at least recently) as a result of the actions of the clergy (molestation scandal). Thus, the appropriate response would be a critique of the Church and how it handled the situation because the scandal (and hence the criticism) was directly related to the Church.

If you subscribe to the opinion that Serbs are everything we're made out to be, it still does not justify actions or a negative opinion against the Church.

There is no parallel between the RCC and the SOC in this regard. The "bad actors" in the RCC were the clergy. Whereas if you are going to lay the blame on any Serbs, it would have to be at the hands of Politicians (many of whom are admittedly atheist).

I actually wasn't thinking of the child molestation scandals at all when I wrote about the RCC. I was actually thinking more of such things as the liberal western media attacking Pope Benedict for being too conservative, the ludicrous hoo-hah in the EU about a certain Catholic politician's belief that homosexuality was sinful etc. In this sense I would equate (but not in others - you're quite right that many of the issues are a little different) the attitude to Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, because it seems to stem from the idea that strict adherence to the Christian faith = bigotry. In a 'tolerant' society the only fair targets are 'bigots', hence carte blanche to villify traditional Christianity. Why this attitude doesn't extend to the likes of fundamentalist Muslims, however, is beyond me. After all, in their case the charge of bigotry is more easily justified.

I'm not disagreeing at all with your words on the current attitude to the Serbian Church, I was just taking more of a birds eye view of it. It seems to me that westerners now get great joy from ridiculing Christianity and dredging up every sordid little scandal they can find in either the RC or Orthodox Church as if by showing that we have sinners amongst us somehow invalidates our faith. I don't see them doing the same thing with other religions - very little appeared to have been made of the Hindu leader accused of murder not long ago, ditto the Tibetan Buddhist monks who murdered one another a few years back, ditto the reports of child abuse in certain mosques, and you could have sneezed and missed the news report this morning of a Theravada Buddhist monk's suicide after being accused of rape. Contrast this with the furore over RC child abuse scandals, the situation in Greece or Jerusalem, or the apparent support of certain Orthodox clergy for the likes of Karadzic (with very little evidence that I've seen). I'm not suggesting that any of these things are justifiable in any way, but is it too much to ask that all religions be treated even-handedly and that people cease to draw conclusions about Christianity based on the reprehensible actions of a few bad eggs?

James
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 06:58:20 AM »

Hi all!

Newsweek is/was certainly guilty of bad journalism. It violated the first thing that they teach you (it used to be the first thing you learned; it was the first thing I was taught back in Introduction to Journalism, which i took during my sophomore year in high school) in journalism school: Get it first, but first get it right.

I read the following about Pope Benedict XVI's first meeting with the media back on April 23:

Quote
True to his previous role as chief guardian of Catholic orthodoxy and moral teaching, Benedict lectured the journalists on the need to possess "clear references of the ethical responsibilities" and to engage in a "sincere search for the truth and the safeguarding of the centrality and the dignity of the person."

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11300-2005Apr23.html

I think that Newsweek would do well to take the Pontiff's wise comments to heart.

But, of course, the foregoing cannot excuse the violence & mayhem that we witnessed in the Islamic world following Newsweek's initial account.

Vasilisa, you posted:

Quote
It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion.

You are, of course, quite right.

But I share my Orthodox Christian friends' disgust at the double-standard in which an alleged desecration of the Koran is frontpage news & causes a global hullabaloo, while the destruction & desecration of Christian houses of God in Kossovo and elsewhere barely makes page 7 (below the fold).  In this regard, I would also cite the world's ignoring of the Palestinians' torching & destruction of the ancient synagogue in Jericho on October 9, 2000 & the pogrom at Joseph's tomb in Nablus two days before (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2000/Temporary+Evacuation+of+Joseph-s+Tomb+by+the+IDF+a.htm).

I often wonder what is it that makes certain people and/or groups so prone to believing, and acting on the basis of, rumors and isolated reports. Back in August 1969, a deranged (he was found to be mentally unbalanced) Australian Christian (Protestant) tourist set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque here in Jerusalem (see http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_alaqsa_fire_1969.php[url] & [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dennis_Rohan). The structure of the Mosque suffered far more damage than it otherwise would have due to the fact that local Muslims attempted to interefere with the Israeli firemen who were called out, and tried to prevent them from reaching the scene & from putting out the blaze. A rumor went out to the effect that the Israeli firetrucks were filled with gasoline, which the Israeli firemen intended to spray on the fire. Shocked

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 09:29:17 AM »

My dear brothers. It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion. How would we as Orthodoxy feel if a beautiful gospel was so publicly defaced?

Huh? Where have you been? That happens all the time. But who cares? Our Faith does not depend on a copy of a book!


Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran

KABUL: At least three hundred Ulema in Afghanistan have demanded the US that those responsible for the desecration of the Holy Quran at Guantanamo Bay must be handed over in three days otherwise a Jihad would be launched against the US.

God, in the Old Testament, through the actions of the old covenant Israel, shows us how we are to defend our faith. It is time that we started to do that. I am tired of this stuff. Bring it on Mofo! Just GIVE us a reason you horrid, smelly, sticky pieces of camel dung.
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 09:33:12 AM »

James,

Yes, I agree with you completely.

MBZ,

Welcome back friend... I haven't heard from you in a while.

It is ironic that you came into this discussion because I decided to get up on my soap box (at the office) and talk about this issue (Of course, we have no Muslims so it was made easy... we've got 1 Orthodox Jew, 7 Conservative Jews, 3 RCs, 1 Lutheran and Me, the big OC).

When I raised the issue of what was going on in Kosovo vs. the Koran, and one of the partners here raised the synagogue at Jericho and Joseph's tomb. He also mentioned that while under Palestinian control, Jews weren't allowed to visit the Wailing Wall.

Of course, none of this stuff is worth outrage. I've also read stories about terrorists hiding bombs inside of "carved out" Korans (both in Afghanistan and Iraq). Again, I guess ripping out pages 1-97 in the Koran is okay, so long as you are using it for a bomb that will kill infidels.

What a joke.
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 10:06:16 AM »

I just better not comment. I really really really dislike moslems as a religion, idea and mode of existance. Take this whatever way you want, but just think, I did not say what I really wanted.
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 10:19:59 AM »

I am tired of this stuff. Bring it on Mofo! Just GIVE us a reason you horrid, smelly, sticky pieces of camel dung.

You’re not being careful with your words here. You could probably pick up a couple of covered Afghani women (who have never shaven nor bathed) with that kind of sweet talk. Here in the west, foul odour is to be considered something offensive; but imagine if one of your God’s majestic names was Al-Muqqit (properly translated “The stinky One” or “The smelly One”). Within this context, you could not possibly take insult to such a title, but rather you would feel undeserving of it - you would insist that your stinking and smelling qualities are far below any reasonably high standard such that you are unworthy to be ascribed such a title.

As for Camel excrement - we know that Muhammed considered camel urine a great thing, to be slurped up regularly for its non-existent medically advantageous qualities. If camel urine was part of a healthy diet, we would have to assume that some of that “good stuff” got in the solids as well.

Conclusion:

“you stinky piece of camel dung” <--- Translates ---> “You majestic, glorious, wonderful, beneficial person, MWA MWA MWA”

......I think I need to start on a book: “A westerners guide to dealing with REAL (arab) Muslims”

Peace.

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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 10:38:31 AM »

Somehow, I think that the media thinks that Christianity is a mere old hat philosophy (and unfortunately, it has become so in many "sects" of the faith. Thank God not in Holy Orthodoxy), and that Islam is a legitimate religion. They are taken in by the long beards, flowing garments, brimless hats, prayer beads, and firey dedication that the muslims seem to have in their home countries (uh, can we say Orthodox Rip-off?), and respect or fear that above the endless interpretation and refuation of the Bible. No one wants to criticize Islam because they will actually rise up in tamdum and kill to get their point across. We on the other hand are expected to "take it" and shut up about it. Kinda like that guy Jesus, right? True, Christ was a Revolutionary that said "Be wary as serpents and harmless as doves." But He Himself used a cat-o-nine tails to get the thieves out of the temple. I think it's about time that the same example take place here. Get them away from our places of worship. Let them have their practices. But do not let them interfear with ours. And they have for too long. Mayhaps Charles Martel did a disservice by haulting the Muslim conquest in Gaul. Maybe if the scars left by the invaders were deep enough they would not be so complacent in the West.

Sorry. Just frustrated. Tired of the enemy winning ground.


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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 10:42:04 AM »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/16/AR2005051601440.html

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 11:24:20 AM »

Quote
Why this attitude doesn't extend to the likes of fundamentalist Muslims, however, is beyond me. After all, in their case the charge of bigotry is more easily justified.

I can think of a good reason. The Marxist leftists of the 60's had a motto and that was 'bring it all down man.' They pledged to work within different institutions to see to it that there would be radical change. Alot of these people can be found in newsrooms like the New York Times that have nothing better to do than undermine society. There is a good possibility that the leftists have a "hands off" policy on exposing the blunders of radical Islam. It's not necessarily that they are in bed together in my opinion but more of "I'll do anything to support the enemy of my enemy", of course being America haters it works out for both them and the islamo-facist in dirty night robes. These people are extremely delusional, making the white Christian male and capitalism their number one target. What they don't understand is that one-day they could be caught in the cross hairs of radical Islam and then their eyes will be opened to see the truth of their own self-loathing and hatred. To get a better understanding of these connections I would recommend Michael Savage's new book "Liberalism is a mental disorder." 
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2005, 11:35:21 AM »

Ian,

  I was sent the Washington Post article by a friend (and other member here). I think this is code for the beginning of the end for Kosovo being in Christian hands.

  I also believe Kosovo will be used as trading block with the Serbian part of Bosnia (Republika Srpska). Although this "trade" would be a geographical victory for Serbia, it would be a HUGE loss for all of Orthodoxy.

   I think most Serbs have resigned themselves to the fact that the world is going to steal Kosovo, the heartland of Serbia, and give it to Albanian Muslims.

   The funniest part of the article was this line here...

Sporadic violence has erupted between the majority Albanian and minority Serbian populations, most recently in March, as the region's status has remained in limbo.

Now is this supposed to be serious journalism??? The last major "incident" in Kosovo is when Albanians went on a rampage destroying approximately 40 Churches and over 500 Serbian homes.

Yes, I see how this is "sporadic violence". Nobody wants to talk about the reality of Kosovo. Here is the reality...

Orthodox Christian Serbs live like caged animals. They are shuttled to schools in military convoys. Power is routinely "cut off" by Albanians, seeking to starve and freeze them. Both the clergy and laity pray under military guard. The monastics are continually threatened. All of this, under the "peace" imposed by NATO.

When Kosovo is stolen from Serbia, eventually all Serbs will be forced out (the way my family was forced out 50 years ago). Only the clergy will remain, under a regime that will be as oppressive as the Ottoman rulers were for 500 years. The West will have "liberated" the Kosovo Albanians and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2005, 12:01:52 PM »

I really really dislike moslems... did I say that.... ohhhhhh
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2005, 12:03:53 PM »

......I think I need to start on a book: “A westerners guide to dealing with REAL (arab) Muslims”

Peace.



I like the Serge Trifkovic book "Sword of the Prophet".
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2005, 12:10:15 PM »

Yes, I see how this is "sporadic violence".  Nobody wants to talk about the reality of Kosovo.  Here is the reality...

Orthodox Christian Serbs live like caged animals.  They are shuttled to schools in military convoys.  Power is routinely "cut off" by Albanians, seeking to starve and freeze them.  Both the clergy and laity pray under military guard.  The monastics are continually threatened.  All of this, under the "peace" imposed by NATO.

When Kosovo is stolen from Serbia, eventually all Serbs will be forced out (the way my family was forced out 50 years ago).  Only the clergy will remain, under a regime that will be as oppressive as the Ottoman rulers were for 500 years.  The West will have "liberated" the Kosovo Albanians and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

SouthSerb,
Since I'm STILL somewhat confused of the situation, can you give some numbers?  I keep hearing "Albanians bad, Serbs good, etc.", but isn't there the Orthodox Church in Albania?  How many are Orthodox vs Muslim?  Who is who, how many and which country have they moved from?  Thanks.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2005, 12:23:03 PM »

Elisha,

  I'm actually shooting from the hip here because I had this discussion with a Serbian friend on the phone today (who claimed to be looking it up while we spoke).

  He told me that 70% of Albania is Muslim, 20% Orthodox and 10% Catholic.  I'll try to very his numbers.

  Yes, there is an Orthodox Church of Albania, presently headed by a Greek, His Beatitude Anastasios and there is a BIG difference between the various Albanian religious groups.

  First and foremost, the Albanians in Kosovo are predominantly Muslim. Second, those who don't prescribe to their vision for Kosovo, are treated just like Serbs. It has been well documented that hundreds (if not thousands) of Albanian "moderates" were murdered by the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army aka "Terrorists R Us").

   You have a small and not very vocal minority of Kosovo Albanians that want to remain with Serbia. However, descent is not tolerated at all. It is reminds me of a story I read about a Serbian reporter who lived in Pristina. Viewed by Serbs (generally as traitor). Constantly wrote stories against Milosevic and Serbia.

   One day he wrote about the drug trafficking of the KLA and the prostitution ring they run. He was found two days after the story ran, with his penis cut from his body and stuffed in him mouth (I apologize for the disgusting detail) but I'm trying to make a point.

  So, to make a very long story short, while there are non-Muslim Albanians (moreso in Albanian proper than Kosovo) you hardly hear about them because they have been terribly suppressed.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2005, 12:33:38 PM »

Ah well, being a minority in a "moslem land".... you might as well be dead....

Somehow, whenever they are in minority they cry 'coz they don't have rights and the country gets bombed by loving christians from the west;
and whenever they're in majority... they have oil so who cares about anybody else.. hm..
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2005, 12:35:55 PM »

optxogokcoc,

Cynical, but very true.
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2005, 01:10:16 PM »

Ah brother, thats me... a cynic...

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.... I love it.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2005, 01:17:36 PM »

SouthSerb,
Thanks for the numbers.  I already generally understood the Muslim attitude/hyprocrisy though.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2005, 01:39:21 PM »

Very disturbing to see NATO taking the side of those that did dirty work for Hitler in that region during WWII. The Islamist can never go about things in a peaceful manner, they have never strayed far from their religions ethos of 'striking' the non-believers and conquering by force whenever possible. Now we have to listen to these big crybabies throwing a fit over the 'supposed' defilement of their precious Koran. It's mysterious that these same people had nothing to say when their buddies went on a head-cutting crusade recently. To them a book has more value than human life, but then again we are dealing with a bunch of sub humans that have nothing better to do with their time than commit acts of violence and burn American flags. Maybe the sensible people over at the UN & NATO can give them a 9-5 since they have no problem taking the side of these troublemakers....Let them deal with the problem they are getting themselves in. I can't wait until it backfires and the islamist take over parts of Europe, then we will see how far talking and peace accords gets the degenerates at NATO with the Islamists. 
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2005, 03:03:28 PM »

Testimony Given today before Foreign Relations Committie
by Father Irenej Dobrijevic

news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2005/May_18/2.html
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2005, 03:50:15 PM »

but imagine if one of your God’s majestic names was Al-Muqqit (properly translated “The stinky One” or “The smelly One”). Within this context, you could not possibly take insult to such a title, but rather you would feel undeserving of it - you would insist that your stinking and smelling qualities are far below any reasonably high standard such that you are unworthy to be ascribed such a title.

As for Camel excrement - we know that Muhammed considered camel urine a great thing, to be slurped up regularly for its non-existent medically advantageous qualities. If camel urine was part of a healthy diet, we would have to assume that some of that “good stuff” got in the solids as well.

“you stinky piece of camel dung” <--- Translates ---> “You majestic, glorious, wonderful, beneficial person, MWA MWA MWA”

Incredible I find it. Forgive me ‘Ekhristos Anesti’ that some of us that call ourselves by such high Christian names can descend to the level of the very correctly so-called western media controllers and Hollywood who reams out more disinformation than anyone can be expected to absorb in a lifetime. These ‘controllers’ are indeed the ones who destroyed almost successfully the fabric of Soviet society in the 50’s and 60’s as was stated by ‘Nacho’.
Far be it from me to boast about my achievements, but I can tell you now that I have it on the best authority that every muslim woman needs to shave everywhere - always. Everyone must wash after every act of intimacy and at other times during the day. My degree in sociology might have become a little dusty with the years, and living as I do on the Siberian steppe I might be slightly out of touch, but I tell you now the name of Allah - Al-Muqit, means, ‘The Protector The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer’: Nisa v 85.
See http://muttaqun.com/99names.html

Now, please don’t any of you misunderstand me, I am Orthodox. I have been even in the Soviet times, and it appears to me that yes ‘Ian Lazurus’, it is for us to shut! That in the end is what our Holy Savior did, even when they killed him. Wrong is wrong, and right is right ‘and never the twain shall meet’ upon this planet as we know it. But such hate speech as that will bring us no closer to peace, tranquility or safety.

Christos Voskresye!!

XB!
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2005, 04:22:14 PM »

It's mysterious that these same people had nothing to say when their buddies went on a head-cutting crusade recently. To them a book has more value than human life, but then again we are dealing with a bunch of sub humans that have nothing better to do with their time than commit acts of violence and burn American flags.

Ahem! Pardon me. From where I sit, the head-cutting episodes were staged by
A) Security forces from the West of the Atlantic or
B) Security agents from an Eastern Mediteranean country -
specificaly to delude the world into thinking  that muslims are so evil. I live in a country that is very multi pluralistic, and to say what our Australian friend said would land us in court for 'hate speech'. I am Othodox to the core, but pray tell me where is it written that our Savior told us it was OK to hate people? Are we not to pray for the salvation of ALL souls. Christ hates sin, but loves sinners.
I'm digressing from this topic, but I feel it is only fair to put things into perspective. I also condemn the wanton destruction of our Orthodox churches in Serbia, and I pray for peace. But, we as people of The Way are not promised peace in this world, until the 'Kingdom without end' is established by our Lord after the Judgement. Let us not set ourselves up for judgement, but pray that we may obtain Mercy on That Day.   
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2005, 04:38:26 PM »

Quote
Ahem! Pardon me. From where I sit, the head-cutting episodes were staged by
A) Security forces from the West of the Atlantic or
B) Security agents from an Eastern Mediteranean country -

You've got to be kidding me. Do a google search and find the video clips out there & tell me then those head-cuttings were staged. I don't beleive that for one minute. I don't think the families of these victims would say the same either. To me that's just "true" Islam coming out and peaking it's head. On another point, has there been a land or country in history that had a choice in converting? Not that I'm aware of, it's always been divide and conquer for those people. I find it very disturbing the "forces" at work today in the world today. I guess you can call it hate but someone needs to stand up and make sure the rest of us are protected from these violent people.

Quote
I live in a country that is very multi pluralistic, and to say what our Australian friend said would land us in court for 'hate speech'

Well I'm sad to hear liberalism has destroyed free speech in Australia. Of course it's only hate speech if a christian is saying what is obviously true to the rest of us, but nope those muslims can get away with just about anything under the sun and they have nothing to say about that. I'm just merely saying what the average guy in the street is thinking. 


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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2005, 04:50:03 PM »

Brigidsboy,

     Thanks for the link.

Kolya,

     Your point (about not hating) is well taken, I sincerely get it, but I think you are missing the context of this discussion.  I was simply putting forth actual fact about how Islam reacted to "the purported flushing of their holy book" vs. how everyone else has reacted to the destruction of Orthodox Churches.

      When you said

Quote
I also condemn the wanton destruction of our Orthodox churches in Serbia, and I pray for peace.

It almost appears as though you are diminishing the government sponsored acts of destroying Orthodox Houses of worship with "hate speech".  True hate is strong word, but at the end of the day, it is a word.  True hate has manifested its ugly head all over Kosovo with the degredation of our Churches.

Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive.  Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2005, 06:12:24 PM »

Brigidsboy,

 Thanks for the link.

Kolya,

 Your point (about not hating) is well taken, I sincerely get it, but I think you are missing the context of this discussion. I was simply putting forth actual fact about how Islam reacted to "the purported flushing of their holy book" vs. how everyone else has reacted to the destruction of Orthodox Churches.

 When you said



It almost appears as though you are diminishing the government sponsored acts of destroying Orthodox Houses of worship with "hate speech". True hate is strong word, but at the end of the day, it is a word. True hate has manifested its ugly head all over Kosovo with the degredation of our Churches.

Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive. Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.

SouthSerb relax, I'm on your side. the Russians and Serbs work very closley here, and we know what is going on. My heart goes out to all Orthodox Serbs who are affected by these atrocities. But what to do? How do you stop a Tsunami of hate? Jesus told us he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Some of us live closer to the frontlines than others. Some of us will lose everything to follow our Lord. some of us will be martyred for our faith.
I agree, we must not keep silent about this, but must protest to the powers that be to help us stop this carnage. But will they listen? Have they ever listened?
I'm only trying to put a practical, balanced view out on this based on Christian Principles. St Seraphim of Sarov was a big man. One day he was attacked by robbers. He even had an ax in his hand. Yet he put it down and did not try to defend himself. I don't live in Kosovo, so I can not judge anyone for their actions. Each must do what they fel is best.
I pray for Serbia. May God have Mercy on His children,


You've got to be kidding me. Do a google search and find the video clips out there & tell me then those head-cuttings were staged. I don't beleive that for one minute. I don't think the families of these victims would say the same either. To me that's just "true" Islam coming out and peaking it's head. On another point, has there been a land or country in history that had a choice in converting? Not that I'm aware of, it's always been divide and conquer for those people. I find it very disturbing the "forces" at work today in the world today. I guess you can call it hate but someone needs to stand up and make sure the rest of us are protected from these violent people.

Well I'm sad to hear liberalism has destroyed free speech in Australia. Of course it's only hate speech if a christian is saying what is obviously true to the rest of us, but nope those muslims can get away with just about anything under the sun and they have nothing to say about that. I'm just merely saying what the average guy in the street is thinking.
 

I never said the beheadings were faked. I only questioned who actually was weilding the knife. There ARE others in this world who would go to great lengths to discredit muslims. Why would they make their own reputations worse? Who has the most to gain from this outrage? Follow the money.
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2005, 08:12:32 PM »

...There ARE others in this world who would go to great lengths to discredit muslims. Why would they make their own reputations worse? Who has the most to gain from this outrage? Follow the money.

And all the Jews who worked in the Twin Towers stayed home from work on Sept 11th. Right?  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2005, 03:02:55 AM »



And all the Jews who worked in the Twin Towers stayed home from work on Sept 11th. Right? Tongue

Like I said, follow the money. I'm not blaming any politcal/relgious/racial group. Put it down to whoever wants to run the world. (They don't have a face, but they are a body of people with their own agenda - and it's not Christian) They recently concluded a meeting in Germany; I'm not saying much more. Believe it, or ignore it at your own peril. Somebody is definitely not telling the truth about a lot of atrocities all over the world. And likewise, nobody's news is trustworthy either. One has to keep reading between the lines. Very frustrating!

Bottom line - someone wants the world to hate muslims, and wants muslims to hate the West.
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2005, 04:43:53 AM »

[Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive.  Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.]

Some of you are forgetting that not too long ago when the Muslim extremists took over the Orthodox section of the 'Holy Church of the Nativity' and not only desecrated it but used Bibles for toilet paper!  Seems like these fanatics have double standards when it comes to desecration of another religions property.

Don't forget the hundreds of pictures of Orthodox Icons with the saints eyes scratched out!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2005, 07:31:55 AM »

[Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive. Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.]

Some of you are forgetting that not too long ago when the Muslim extremists took over the Orthodox section of the 'Holy Church of the Nativity' and not only desecrated it but used Bibles for toilet paper! Seems like these fanatics have double standards when it comes to desecration of another religions property.

Don't forget the hundreds of pictures of Orthodox Icons with the saints eyes scratched out!

Orthodoc


Dear Orthdoc,
I don't think anybody here is trying to deminish the horror of what is happening on Kosovo. We stand boldly by your side to denounce this abominable crime against not only the Holy Orthodox Church, but against humanity.
What I am saying is, "What do you want us to do?"
I live in far off Africa. Most others live in America or Australia. What do we do to stop this hate campaign against God's church? What is happening is from the father of lies, the devil. He hates the true church with a perfect hatred.
Did Christ say being a Christian was going to be an easy ride? On the contrary. But singling out a segment of society to hate back is un-christlike. They - the evil perpertrators - are being used by satan to persecute the church. And NATO just stands by with its hands behind its back. This only goes to show they are also on satan's side.
Kosovo at this point in time is the front line of the great Cosmic Battle that has raged since lucifer lost his position in heaven.
I cry with you. I pray for the victims. There is at this one point in time only one way out. Flee!
That is what Christians through out the centuries have been doing, and the time will come, we know not when, that all of us will have to flee our homes, because anti-christ will reign for a season before the return of our Lord.
Anti-christ already has his people on the ground. They are the "faceless" ones I was speaking of in a previous post. They will use, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Atheists and even so called "Christians" to get at God's True Church. Be prepared for the worst. The world does not love us, and they do not see our plight in the same way as the Holocaust.
God bless you.
PS:  [And further guys 'n gals, I'm not 'hiiting' on anybody here. We're all "sheeple" to be used as pawns for the Money'd, 'Faceless' ones.]
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2005, 08:21:11 AM »

Hi all!

I saw this in today's Boston Globe (I've underlined what I think his strongest points are):

Quote
Why Islam is disrespected

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | May 19, 2005

It was front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don't lash out in homicidal rage when their religion is insulted. They don't call for holy war and riot in the streets. It would be unthinkable for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif, the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged Koran-flushers -- ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" -- was any reader surprised?

The Muslim riots should have been met by outrage and condemnation. From every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at Newsweek.

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.

Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world's dysfunctional political culture?

No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States."

Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet's Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to ''converge on our nation's capital for a rally against terrorism" -- and having only 50 people show up.

Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can't get the time of day.


Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.

Link: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/19/why_islam_is_disrespected/

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2005, 12:20:54 PM »



I like the Serge Trifkovic book "Sword of the Prophet".

Thank you!  A Serbian friend told me about this book over Pascha, but since we were having a bit of fun with vodk.... water, and my shortterm memory is shot, I could remember the name.  Now I can order it from Amazon. 
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« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2005, 12:57:09 PM »

This whole thing just disgusts me, and makes me want to crawl into a hole far away from TV, newspapers, internet, etc.  It's just all so STUPID.
I realize there God has a plan for us.  We are here to suffer for him in one way or another, be it by physical torture at some religious extemist's hand, or living our lives biting our tongues and praying "
Oh Lord and master of my life, Take from the the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power and idle talk. Give rather the spirit of HUMILITY, chastity, patience and love to thy servant. Yea oh Lord and King, grant me to see MY OWN transgressions and not to judge my brothers, For thou art blessed unto ages of ages. Amen!" not just during Great Lent, but every time you are presented with such an chance to blast people. 
Chrisitianity, and particularly Orthodoxy, as the religion of Truth, is going to be more persecuted than any other religion.  We took this burden upon ourselves at our baptism.  We can't just be Christian to our fellow Orthodox, we have to be Christian to EVERYBODY. We are supposedly the religion of Love.  If we are not willing to tolerate a little media hazing, or the media ignoring us (I'm not saying be inactive, don't get me wrong), or being badmouthed, we are in the wrong religion.

Anyway, I think I am going to retreat back into my hangover-induced fog now.



 I am myself a violent pacafist, I think anyone who wants to start a war should be beaten over the head with a heavy stick.
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2005, 01:42:39 PM »

If we are not willing to tolerate a little media hazing, or the media ignoring us (I'm not saying be inactive, don't get me wrong), or being badmouthed, we are in the wrong religion.

If it were only being ignored, hazed or badmouthed it be a lot easier to take.

Oh, and about you and your "Serbian friend" dabbling in Vodk... water... nah, don't believe it one bit.  Everyone knows, Serbs only drink Slivo...water.
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« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2005, 03:07:57 PM »



If it were only being ignored, hazed or badmouthed it be a lot easier to take.

Oh, and about you and your "Serbian friend" dabbling in Vodk... water... nah, don't believe it one bit. Everyone knows, Serbs only drink Slivo...water.

It would be easier to take, but whoever said it would be easy?  I of course say that as someone who's never had any SERIOUS problems from people regarding religion, so who am I to say how much people can take?  But that's my 3 cents anyway.

BTW, the Serbian friend was in a Russian house, no Slivo available.  No rakia either.  He's a respectful lad who would not want to offend the resident priest by not drinking his vodk... water. :-)
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Kolya
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Snow in Red Square.


« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2005, 04:15:31 AM »

Hi MBZ,
Thanks for popping by. Your input is always appreciated. Smiley
Give me a call when you're passing by this way again in transit to CT, and we'll put some meat on the coals and pop a few cans. What say you?

Go with care
Kolya
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Treat others as you would like to be treated!
observer
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Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2005, 11:17:44 AM »

I often wonder about the role of islamic violence.  I read many yrs ago a prophecy (which could be nonsense) from the Athos that said that Islam was the leopard in Daniel. Islam would take on the whole world and be destroyed.  Is Islam a hornets nests?  Are some people stirring up the hornets so that all 'decent' people will unite to  destroy them?  Then the Temple Mount will be be retaken by the Zionists etc.   Ho! Ho! a Jewish plot?  No not necessarily - there is a difference between Torah Jews and Zioniists.  And are Zionists being used to bring about a final solution?  I just watch events, have done for a number of yrs.  Let's see what Turkey does. They want to join the EU, but they not ready as long as the Islamic fascists hold sway there.   Just my observations as 'observer" - I get a nagging feeling that we are looking in the wrong direction.  Yes Islam is a threat but not THE threat.
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Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
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