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Author Topic: Thoughts on the Newsweek article  (Read 11111 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: May 17, 2005, 09:11:39 AM »

I thought it very interesting that the entire world was up in arms over the Newsweek article alleging that a Koran was flushed down the toilet as a means of interrogation.

Now, let me get this straight... it creates world outrage (and a typical violent Islamic reaction) when Newsweek publishes (an apparently false) story about flushing the Islamic Holy book down a toilet, but when Albanian Islamic Extremists fire bomb hundreds of Orthodox Churches, it goes unnoticed.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Furthermore, I've heard many (on tv) give the line, "well 'if' they did flush the Koran, it would be despicable".  Hold on, hold on... flushing the Koran is despicable, but State Sponsored destruction of Holy Orthodox buildings and locations is not?

If flushing a Koran down a toilet warranted the reaction that it got from Muslims around the world, than what is the *warranted* reaction for Orthodox Christians who have had more than 300 Churchs destroyed in Kosovo?
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 09:22:40 AM »

I thought it very interesting that the entire world was up in arms over the Newsweek article alleging that a Koran was flushed down the toilet as a means of interrogation.

Now, let me get this straight... it creates world outrage (and a typical violent Islamic reaction) when Newsweek publishes (an apparently false) story about flushing the Islamic Holy book down a toilet, but when Albanian Islamic Extremists fire bomb hundreds of Orthodox Churches, it goes unnoticed.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Furthermore, I've heard many (on tv) give the line, "well 'if' they did flush the Koran, it would be despicable". Hold on, hold on... flushing the Koran is despicable, but State Sponsored destruction of Holy Orthodox buildings and locations is not?

If flushing a Koran down a toilet warranted the reaction that it got from Muslims around the world, than what is the *warranted* reaction for Orthodox Christians who have had more than 300 Churchs destroyed in Kosovo?

You are, of course, absolutely right. Unfortunately in the west right now it's fashionable to bash Christianity in any form and, apparently, particularly if it's Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. If you criticise Islam, however, or any other non-Christian religion then you're an intolerant, despicable bigot - even if your criticism is of the faith alone and not individual believers. Sometimes I think that the only people who are fair game for criticism now are traditional Christians (because, of course, we're all bigots anyway, aren't we?).

James
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 10:33:06 AM »

I pound this to death, but it's really about the perception of reality.  Mass media makes a particular view of the world "real" by repeating it over and over until it becomes hyperreal - a reality that cannot be challenged.

The fact that Newsweek was called on the carpet for it is quite amazing, but many will claim that the original story was correct and that the government forced a retraction.  That's a fairy tale, but Pacifica will sell it in the U.S.
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 11:05:01 AM »

I'm sure the original story was correct. And I have no problem with that.
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 11:22:20 AM »

Tom,

     My point is, even if you think the story is correct, put the two situations in perspective.

Flushing a Koran vs. The destruction of Hundreds of Churches.

James,

The only thing I (slightly) disgree with, is equating opinion against the RCC and the Orthodox Church.  Here is why... much of the backlash against the RCC (at least recently) as a result of the actions of the clergy (molestation scandal).  Thus, the appropriate response would be a critique of the Church and how it handled the situation because the scandal (and hence the criticism) was directly related to the Church.

If you subscribe to the opinion that Serbs are everything we're made out to be, it still does not justify actions  or a negative opinion against the Church. 

There is no parallel between the RCC and the SOC in this regard.  The "bad actors" in the RCC were the clergy.  Whereas if you are going to lay the blame on any Serbs, it would have to be at the hands of Politicians (many of whom are admittedly atheist).
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 03:26:55 PM »

This just in............



Sun Rises in the East...........Infuriates Islamists.






We report the news as it breaks......... :cat:
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 03:47:03 PM »

You know, when I first heard the story, I started to think of the "artistic" depiction of the Blessed Mother in horse dung (here in a NYC museum a few years back).

I thought (for about 1/2 a second) that this was a classic example of the terrible double standard... but then I thought... WAIT A MINUTE.... forget about the piece of crap art (pardon the pun)... what about our Churches...  the  world just doesn't get it.

By the way.  Today's front page in the New York Post...

HOLY SHIITE!
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2005, 04:08:15 PM »


Christos Voskrisye!!!

My dear brothers.  It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion.  How would we as Orthodoxy feel if a beautiful gospel was so publicly defaced? But more. Let us write a combined, concerted letter to all Patriarchs, petitions to come up in defense of all those defaced and destroyed churches in Serbia, Greece, and Kurdistan.  All other places where Orthodoxy has been made to suffer. Perhaps the trouble with us is the fact that, for all these centuries, we have been used to this kind of thing on one or another level. But, as human respect for what belongs to God becomes cold, and dies, we must expect only more persecution.  Let us forget about jurisdictions, nationalities, and call upon our most Pure and Blessed Mother, and the Holy Trinity together, as on truly Catholic, and Apostolic Church and

Gospodi Pomiloi, Prisvitaya Bogoroditsa !
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2005, 02:59:33 AM »

Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran

 KABUL: At least three hundred Ulema in Afghanistan have demanded the US that those responsible for the desecration of the Holy Quran at Guantanamo Bay must be handed over in three days otherwise a Jihad would be launched against the US.

The demand was issued after a gathering at a mosque in the Faizabad city of the Badekshan province. The Ulema said that they want that President Bush must deal with this matter in the most sincere way possible and must hand over those responsible for this incident to a Muslim country.

After the revelation of an incident of the desecration of the Holy Quran in a US magazine protests are going on in Afghanistan in which 16 people have been killed while more then 100 have been injured.

Source: http://www.geo.tv/main_files/world.aspx?id=76649

My Comments: ha ha ha.....................................(Ive said enough about Islam on this forum - I've made my position quite clear I believe).

Peace.
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2005, 03:48:04 AM »

James,

The only thing I (slightly) disgree with, is equating opinion against the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Here is why... much of the backlash against the RCC (at least recently) as a result of the actions of the clergy (molestation scandal). Thus, the appropriate response would be a critique of the Church and how it handled the situation because the scandal (and hence the criticism) was directly related to the Church.

If you subscribe to the opinion that Serbs are everything we're made out to be, it still does not justify actions or a negative opinion against the Church.

There is no parallel between the RCC and the SOC in this regard. The "bad actors" in the RCC were the clergy. Whereas if you are going to lay the blame on any Serbs, it would have to be at the hands of Politicians (many of whom are admittedly atheist).

I actually wasn't thinking of the child molestation scandals at all when I wrote about the RCC. I was actually thinking more of such things as the liberal western media attacking Pope Benedict for being too conservative, the ludicrous hoo-hah in the EU about a certain Catholic politician's belief that homosexuality was sinful etc. In this sense I would equate (but not in others - you're quite right that many of the issues are a little different) the attitude to Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, because it seems to stem from the idea that strict adherence to the Christian faith = bigotry. In a 'tolerant' society the only fair targets are 'bigots', hence carte blanche to villify traditional Christianity. Why this attitude doesn't extend to the likes of fundamentalist Muslims, however, is beyond me. After all, in their case the charge of bigotry is more easily justified.

I'm not disagreeing at all with your words on the current attitude to the Serbian Church, I was just taking more of a birds eye view of it. It seems to me that westerners now get great joy from ridiculing Christianity and dredging up every sordid little scandal they can find in either the RC or Orthodox Church as if by showing that we have sinners amongst us somehow invalidates our faith. I don't see them doing the same thing with other religions - very little appeared to have been made of the Hindu leader accused of murder not long ago, ditto the Tibetan Buddhist monks who murdered one another a few years back, ditto the reports of child abuse in certain mosques, and you could have sneezed and missed the news report this morning of a Theravada Buddhist monk's suicide after being accused of rape. Contrast this with the furore over RC child abuse scandals, the situation in Greece or Jerusalem, or the apparent support of certain Orthodox clergy for the likes of Karadzic (with very little evidence that I've seen). I'm not suggesting that any of these things are justifiable in any way, but is it too much to ask that all religions be treated even-handedly and that people cease to draw conclusions about Christianity based on the reprehensible actions of a few bad eggs?

James
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2005, 06:58:20 AM »

Hi all!

Newsweek is/was certainly guilty of bad journalism. It violated the first thing that they teach you (it used to be the first thing you learned; it was the first thing I was taught back in Introduction to Journalism, which i took during my sophomore year in high school) in journalism school: Get it first, but first get it right.

I read the following about Pope Benedict XVI's first meeting with the media back on April 23:

Quote
True to his previous role as chief guardian of Catholic orthodoxy and moral teaching, Benedict lectured the journalists on the need to possess "clear references of the ethical responsibilities" and to engage in a "sincere search for the truth and the safeguarding of the centrality and the dignity of the person."

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11300-2005Apr23.html

I think that Newsweek would do well to take the Pontiff's wise comments to heart.

But, of course, the foregoing cannot excuse the violence & mayhem that we witnessed in the Islamic world following Newsweek's initial account.

Vasilisa, you posted:

Quote
It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion.

You are, of course, quite right.

But I share my Orthodox Christian friends' disgust at the double-standard in which an alleged desecration of the Koran is frontpage news & causes a global hullabaloo, while the destruction & desecration of Christian houses of God in Kossovo and elsewhere barely makes page 7 (below the fold).  In this regard, I would also cite the world's ignoring of the Palestinians' torching & destruction of the ancient synagogue in Jericho on October 9, 2000 & the pogrom at Joseph's tomb in Nablus two days before (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2000/Temporary+Evacuation+of+Joseph-s+Tomb+by+the+IDF+a.htm).

I often wonder what is it that makes certain people and/or groups so prone to believing, and acting on the basis of, rumors and isolated reports. Back in August 1969, a deranged (he was found to be mentally unbalanced) Australian Christian (Protestant) tourist set fire to the Al-Aqsa Mosque here in Jerusalem (see http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_alaqsa_fire_1969.php[url] & [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Dennis_Rohan). The structure of the Mosque suffered far more damage than it otherwise would have due to the fact that local Muslims attempted to interefere with the Israeli firemen who were called out, and tried to prevent them from reaching the scene & from putting out the blaze. A rumor went out to the effect that the Israeli firetrucks were filled with gasoline, which the Israeli firemen intended to spray on the fire. Shocked

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2005, 09:29:17 AM »

My dear brothers. It is despicable to denigrate in any way the holy writ on any religion. How would we as Orthodoxy feel if a beautiful gospel was so publicly defaced?

Huh? Where have you been? That happens all the time. But who cares? Our Faith does not depend on a copy of a book!


Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran

KABUL: At least three hundred Ulema in Afghanistan have demanded the US that those responsible for the desecration of the Holy Quran at Guantanamo Bay must be handed over in three days otherwise a Jihad would be launched against the US.

God, in the Old Testament, through the actions of the old covenant Israel, shows us how we are to defend our faith. It is time that we started to do that. I am tired of this stuff. Bring it on Mofo! Just GIVE us a reason you horrid, smelly, sticky pieces of camel dung.
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« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2005, 09:33:12 AM »

James,

Yes, I agree with you completely.

MBZ,

Welcome back friend... I haven't heard from you in a while.

It is ironic that you came into this discussion because I decided to get up on my soap box (at the office) and talk about this issue (Of course, we have no Muslims so it was made easy... we've got 1 Orthodox Jew, 7 Conservative Jews, 3 RCs, 1 Lutheran and Me, the big OC).

When I raised the issue of what was going on in Kosovo vs. the Koran, and one of the partners here raised the synagogue at Jericho and Joseph's tomb. He also mentioned that while under Palestinian control, Jews weren't allowed to visit the Wailing Wall.

Of course, none of this stuff is worth outrage. I've also read stories about terrorists hiding bombs inside of "carved out" Korans (both in Afghanistan and Iraq). Again, I guess ripping out pages 1-97 in the Koran is okay, so long as you are using it for a bomb that will kill infidels.

What a joke.
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« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2005, 10:06:16 AM »

I just better not comment. I really really really dislike moslems as a religion, idea and mode of existance. Take this whatever way you want, but just think, I did not say what I really wanted.
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« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2005, 10:19:59 AM »

I am tired of this stuff. Bring it on Mofo! Just GIVE us a reason you horrid, smelly, sticky pieces of camel dung.

You’re not being careful with your words here. You could probably pick up a couple of covered Afghani women (who have never shaven nor bathed) with that kind of sweet talk. Here in the west, foul odour is to be considered something offensive; but imagine if one of your God’s majestic names was Al-Muqqit (properly translated “The stinky One” or “The smelly One”). Within this context, you could not possibly take insult to such a title, but rather you would feel undeserving of it - you would insist that your stinking and smelling qualities are far below any reasonably high standard such that you are unworthy to be ascribed such a title.

As for Camel excrement - we know that Muhammed considered camel urine a great thing, to be slurped up regularly for its non-existent medically advantageous qualities. If camel urine was part of a healthy diet, we would have to assume that some of that “good stuff” got in the solids as well.

Conclusion:

“you stinky piece of camel dung” <--- Translates ---> “You majestic, glorious, wonderful, beneficial person, MWA MWA MWA”

......I think I need to start on a book: “A westerners guide to dealing with REAL (arab) Muslims”

Peace.

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« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2005, 10:38:31 AM »

Somehow, I think that the media thinks that Christianity is a mere old hat philosophy (and unfortunately, it has become so in many "sects" of the faith. Thank God not in Holy Orthodoxy), and that Islam is a legitimate religion. They are taken in by the long beards, flowing garments, brimless hats, prayer beads, and firey dedication that the muslims seem to have in their home countries (uh, can we say Orthodox Rip-off?), and respect or fear that above the endless interpretation and refuation of the Bible. No one wants to criticize Islam because they will actually rise up in tamdum and kill to get their point across. We on the other hand are expected to "take it" and shut up about it. Kinda like that guy Jesus, right? True, Christ was a Revolutionary that said "Be wary as serpents and harmless as doves." But He Himself used a cat-o-nine tails to get the thieves out of the temple. I think it's about time that the same example take place here. Get them away from our places of worship. Let them have their practices. But do not let them interfear with ours. And they have for too long. Mayhaps Charles Martel did a disservice by haulting the Muslim conquest in Gaul. Maybe if the scars left by the invaders were deep enough they would not be so complacent in the West.

Sorry. Just frustrated. Tired of the enemy winning ground.


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« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2005, 10:42:04 AM »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/16/AR2005051601440.html

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2005, 11:24:20 AM »

Quote
Why this attitude doesn't extend to the likes of fundamentalist Muslims, however, is beyond me. After all, in their case the charge of bigotry is more easily justified.

I can think of a good reason. The Marxist leftists of the 60's had a motto and that was 'bring it all down man.' They pledged to work within different institutions to see to it that there would be radical change. Alot of these people can be found in newsrooms like the New York Times that have nothing better to do than undermine society. There is a good possibility that the leftists have a "hands off" policy on exposing the blunders of radical Islam. It's not necessarily that they are in bed together in my opinion but more of "I'll do anything to support the enemy of my enemy", of course being America haters it works out for both them and the islamo-facist in dirty night robes. These people are extremely delusional, making the white Christian male and capitalism their number one target. What they don't understand is that one-day they could be caught in the cross hairs of radical Islam and then their eyes will be opened to see the truth of their own self-loathing and hatred. To get a better understanding of these connections I would recommend Michael Savage's new book "Liberalism is a mental disorder." 
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2005, 11:35:21 AM »

Ian,

  I was sent the Washington Post article by a friend (and other member here). I think this is code for the beginning of the end for Kosovo being in Christian hands.

  I also believe Kosovo will be used as trading block with the Serbian part of Bosnia (Republika Srpska). Although this "trade" would be a geographical victory for Serbia, it would be a HUGE loss for all of Orthodoxy.

   I think most Serbs have resigned themselves to the fact that the world is going to steal Kosovo, the heartland of Serbia, and give it to Albanian Muslims.

   The funniest part of the article was this line here...

Sporadic violence has erupted between the majority Albanian and minority Serbian populations, most recently in March, as the region's status has remained in limbo.

Now is this supposed to be serious journalism??? The last major "incident" in Kosovo is when Albanians went on a rampage destroying approximately 40 Churches and over 500 Serbian homes.

Yes, I see how this is "sporadic violence". Nobody wants to talk about the reality of Kosovo. Here is the reality...

Orthodox Christian Serbs live like caged animals. They are shuttled to schools in military convoys. Power is routinely "cut off" by Albanians, seeking to starve and freeze them. Both the clergy and laity pray under military guard. The monastics are continually threatened. All of this, under the "peace" imposed by NATO.

When Kosovo is stolen from Serbia, eventually all Serbs will be forced out (the way my family was forced out 50 years ago). Only the clergy will remain, under a regime that will be as oppressive as the Ottoman rulers were for 500 years. The West will have "liberated" the Kosovo Albanians and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2005, 12:01:52 PM »

I really really dislike moslems... did I say that.... ohhhhhh
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2005, 12:03:53 PM »

......I think I need to start on a book: “A westerners guide to dealing with REAL (arab) Muslims”

Peace.



I like the Serge Trifkovic book "Sword of the Prophet".
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« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2005, 12:10:15 PM »

Yes, I see how this is "sporadic violence".  Nobody wants to talk about the reality of Kosovo.  Here is the reality...

Orthodox Christian Serbs live like caged animals.  They are shuttled to schools in military convoys.  Power is routinely "cut off" by Albanians, seeking to starve and freeze them.  Both the clergy and laity pray under military guard.  The monastics are continually threatened.  All of this, under the "peace" imposed by NATO.

When Kosovo is stolen from Serbia, eventually all Serbs will be forced out (the way my family was forced out 50 years ago).  Only the clergy will remain, under a regime that will be as oppressive as the Ottoman rulers were for 500 years.  The West will have "liberated" the Kosovo Albanians and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

SouthSerb,
Since I'm STILL somewhat confused of the situation, can you give some numbers?  I keep hearing "Albanians bad, Serbs good, etc.", but isn't there the Orthodox Church in Albania?  How many are Orthodox vs Muslim?  Who is who, how many and which country have they moved from?  Thanks.
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« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2005, 12:23:03 PM »

Elisha,

  I'm actually shooting from the hip here because I had this discussion with a Serbian friend on the phone today (who claimed to be looking it up while we spoke).

  He told me that 70% of Albania is Muslim, 20% Orthodox and 10% Catholic.  I'll try to very his numbers.

  Yes, there is an Orthodox Church of Albania, presently headed by a Greek, His Beatitude Anastasios and there is a BIG difference between the various Albanian religious groups.

  First and foremost, the Albanians in Kosovo are predominantly Muslim. Second, those who don't prescribe to their vision for Kosovo, are treated just like Serbs. It has been well documented that hundreds (if not thousands) of Albanian "moderates" were murdered by the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army aka "Terrorists R Us").

   You have a small and not very vocal minority of Kosovo Albanians that want to remain with Serbia. However, descent is not tolerated at all. It is reminds me of a story I read about a Serbian reporter who lived in Pristina. Viewed by Serbs (generally as traitor). Constantly wrote stories against Milosevic and Serbia.

   One day he wrote about the drug trafficking of the KLA and the prostitution ring they run. He was found two days after the story ran, with his penis cut from his body and stuffed in him mouth (I apologize for the disgusting detail) but I'm trying to make a point.

  So, to make a very long story short, while there are non-Muslim Albanians (moreso in Albanian proper than Kosovo) you hardly hear about them because they have been terribly suppressed.
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« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2005, 12:33:38 PM »

Ah well, being a minority in a "moslem land".... you might as well be dead....

Somehow, whenever they are in minority they cry 'coz they don't have rights and the country gets bombed by loving christians from the west;
and whenever they're in majority... they have oil so who cares about anybody else.. hm..
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2005, 12:35:55 PM »

optxogokcoc,

Cynical, but very true.
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2005, 01:10:16 PM »

Ah brother, thats me... a cynic...

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.... I love it.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2005, 01:17:36 PM »

SouthSerb,
Thanks for the numbers.  I already generally understood the Muslim attitude/hyprocrisy though.
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2005, 01:39:21 PM »

Very disturbing to see NATO taking the side of those that did dirty work for Hitler in that region during WWII. The Islamist can never go about things in a peaceful manner, they have never strayed far from their religions ethos of 'striking' the non-believers and conquering by force whenever possible. Now we have to listen to these big crybabies throwing a fit over the 'supposed' defilement of their precious Koran. It's mysterious that these same people had nothing to say when their buddies went on a head-cutting crusade recently. To them a book has more value than human life, but then again we are dealing with a bunch of sub humans that have nothing better to do with their time than commit acts of violence and burn American flags. Maybe the sensible people over at the UN & NATO can give them a 9-5 since they have no problem taking the side of these troublemakers....Let them deal with the problem they are getting themselves in. I can't wait until it backfires and the islamist take over parts of Europe, then we will see how far talking and peace accords gets the degenerates at NATO with the Islamists. 
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2005, 03:03:28 PM »

Testimony Given today before Foreign Relations Committie
by Father Irenej Dobrijevic

news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2005/May_18/2.html
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2005, 03:50:15 PM »

but imagine if one of your God’s majestic names was Al-Muqqit (properly translated “The stinky One” or “The smelly One”). Within this context, you could not possibly take insult to such a title, but rather you would feel undeserving of it - you would insist that your stinking and smelling qualities are far below any reasonably high standard such that you are unworthy to be ascribed such a title.

As for Camel excrement - we know that Muhammed considered camel urine a great thing, to be slurped up regularly for its non-existent medically advantageous qualities. If camel urine was part of a healthy diet, we would have to assume that some of that “good stuff” got in the solids as well.

“you stinky piece of camel dung” <--- Translates ---> “You majestic, glorious, wonderful, beneficial person, MWA MWA MWA”

Incredible I find it. Forgive me ‘Ekhristos Anesti’ that some of us that call ourselves by such high Christian names can descend to the level of the very correctly so-called western media controllers and Hollywood who reams out more disinformation than anyone can be expected to absorb in a lifetime. These ‘controllers’ are indeed the ones who destroyed almost successfully the fabric of Soviet society in the 50’s and 60’s as was stated by ‘Nacho’.
Far be it from me to boast about my achievements, but I can tell you now that I have it on the best authority that every muslim woman needs to shave everywhere - always. Everyone must wash after every act of intimacy and at other times during the day. My degree in sociology might have become a little dusty with the years, and living as I do on the Siberian steppe I might be slightly out of touch, but I tell you now the name of Allah - Al-Muqit, means, ‘The Protector The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer’: Nisa v 85.
See http://muttaqun.com/99names.html

Now, please don’t any of you misunderstand me, I am Orthodox. I have been even in the Soviet times, and it appears to me that yes ‘Ian Lazurus’, it is for us to shut! That in the end is what our Holy Savior did, even when they killed him. Wrong is wrong, and right is right ‘and never the twain shall meet’ upon this planet as we know it. But such hate speech as that will bring us no closer to peace, tranquility or safety.

Christos Voskresye!!

XB!
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2005, 04:22:14 PM »

It's mysterious that these same people had nothing to say when their buddies went on a head-cutting crusade recently. To them a book has more value than human life, but then again we are dealing with a bunch of sub humans that have nothing better to do with their time than commit acts of violence and burn American flags.

Ahem! Pardon me. From where I sit, the head-cutting episodes were staged by
A) Security forces from the West of the Atlantic or
B) Security agents from an Eastern Mediteranean country -
specificaly to delude the world into thinking  that muslims are so evil. I live in a country that is very multi pluralistic, and to say what our Australian friend said would land us in court for 'hate speech'. I am Othodox to the core, but pray tell me where is it written that our Savior told us it was OK to hate people? Are we not to pray for the salvation of ALL souls. Christ hates sin, but loves sinners.
I'm digressing from this topic, but I feel it is only fair to put things into perspective. I also condemn the wanton destruction of our Orthodox churches in Serbia, and I pray for peace. But, we as people of The Way are not promised peace in this world, until the 'Kingdom without end' is established by our Lord after the Judgement. Let us not set ourselves up for judgement, but pray that we may obtain Mercy on That Day.   
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2005, 04:38:26 PM »

Quote
Ahem! Pardon me. From where I sit, the head-cutting episodes were staged by
A) Security forces from the West of the Atlantic or
B) Security agents from an Eastern Mediteranean country -

You've got to be kidding me. Do a google search and find the video clips out there & tell me then those head-cuttings were staged. I don't beleive that for one minute. I don't think the families of these victims would say the same either. To me that's just "true" Islam coming out and peaking it's head. On another point, has there been a land or country in history that had a choice in converting? Not that I'm aware of, it's always been divide and conquer for those people. I find it very disturbing the "forces" at work today in the world today. I guess you can call it hate but someone needs to stand up and make sure the rest of us are protected from these violent people.

Quote
I live in a country that is very multi pluralistic, and to say what our Australian friend said would land us in court for 'hate speech'

Well I'm sad to hear liberalism has destroyed free speech in Australia. Of course it's only hate speech if a christian is saying what is obviously true to the rest of us, but nope those muslims can get away with just about anything under the sun and they have nothing to say about that. I'm just merely saying what the average guy in the street is thinking. 


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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2005, 04:50:03 PM »

Brigidsboy,

     Thanks for the link.

Kolya,

     Your point (about not hating) is well taken, I sincerely get it, but I think you are missing the context of this discussion.  I was simply putting forth actual fact about how Islam reacted to "the purported flushing of their holy book" vs. how everyone else has reacted to the destruction of Orthodox Churches.

      When you said

Quote
I also condemn the wanton destruction of our Orthodox churches in Serbia, and I pray for peace.

It almost appears as though you are diminishing the government sponsored acts of destroying Orthodox Houses of worship with "hate speech".  True hate is strong word, but at the end of the day, it is a word.  True hate has manifested its ugly head all over Kosovo with the degredation of our Churches.

Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive.  Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2005, 06:12:24 PM »

Brigidsboy,

 Thanks for the link.

Kolya,

 Your point (about not hating) is well taken, I sincerely get it, but I think you are missing the context of this discussion. I was simply putting forth actual fact about how Islam reacted to "the purported flushing of their holy book" vs. how everyone else has reacted to the destruction of Orthodox Churches.

 When you said



It almost appears as though you are diminishing the government sponsored acts of destroying Orthodox Houses of worship with "hate speech". True hate is strong word, but at the end of the day, it is a word. True hate has manifested its ugly head all over Kosovo with the degredation of our Churches.

Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive. Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.

SouthSerb relax, I'm on your side. the Russians and Serbs work very closley here, and we know what is going on. My heart goes out to all Orthodox Serbs who are affected by these atrocities. But what to do? How do you stop a Tsunami of hate? Jesus told us he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Some of us live closer to the frontlines than others. Some of us will lose everything to follow our Lord. some of us will be martyred for our faith.
I agree, we must not keep silent about this, but must protest to the powers that be to help us stop this carnage. But will they listen? Have they ever listened?
I'm only trying to put a practical, balanced view out on this based on Christian Principles. St Seraphim of Sarov was a big man. One day he was attacked by robbers. He even had an ax in his hand. Yet he put it down and did not try to defend himself. I don't live in Kosovo, so I can not judge anyone for their actions. Each must do what they fel is best.
I pray for Serbia. May God have Mercy on His children,


You've got to be kidding me. Do a google search and find the video clips out there & tell me then those head-cuttings were staged. I don't beleive that for one minute. I don't think the families of these victims would say the same either. To me that's just "true" Islam coming out and peaking it's head. On another point, has there been a land or country in history that had a choice in converting? Not that I'm aware of, it's always been divide and conquer for those people. I find it very disturbing the "forces" at work today in the world today. I guess you can call it hate but someone needs to stand up and make sure the rest of us are protected from these violent people.

Well I'm sad to hear liberalism has destroyed free speech in Australia. Of course it's only hate speech if a christian is saying what is obviously true to the rest of us, but nope those muslims can get away with just about anything under the sun and they have nothing to say about that. I'm just merely saying what the average guy in the street is thinking.
 

I never said the beheadings were faked. I only questioned who actually was weilding the knife. There ARE others in this world who would go to great lengths to discredit muslims. Why would they make their own reputations worse? Who has the most to gain from this outrage? Follow the money.
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2005, 08:12:32 PM »

...There ARE others in this world who would go to great lengths to discredit muslims. Why would they make their own reputations worse? Who has the most to gain from this outrage? Follow the money.

And all the Jews who worked in the Twin Towers stayed home from work on Sept 11th. Right?  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2005, 03:02:55 AM »



And all the Jews who worked in the Twin Towers stayed home from work on Sept 11th. Right? Tongue

Like I said, follow the money. I'm not blaming any politcal/relgious/racial group. Put it down to whoever wants to run the world. (They don't have a face, but they are a body of people with their own agenda - and it's not Christian) They recently concluded a meeting in Germany; I'm not saying much more. Believe it, or ignore it at your own peril. Somebody is definitely not telling the truth about a lot of atrocities all over the world. And likewise, nobody's news is trustworthy either. One has to keep reading between the lines. Very frustrating!

Bottom line - someone wants the world to hate muslims, and wants muslims to hate the West.
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2005, 04:43:53 AM »

[Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive.  Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.]

Some of you are forgetting that not too long ago when the Muslim extremists took over the Orthodox section of the 'Holy Church of the Nativity' and not only desecrated it but used Bibles for toilet paper!  Seems like these fanatics have double standards when it comes to desecration of another religions property.

Don't forget the hundreds of pictures of Orthodox Icons with the saints eyes scratched out!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2005, 07:31:55 AM »

[Do you need me to forward the links showing Albanian kids urinating on Icons and Church rubble to further prove the difference? To be honest, equating the two (or even diminishing the effect of what is going in Kosovo) is personally offensive. Remember, many of us, have had family members MURDERED by Albanian Muslims, so we have a bit of knowledge about what hate can do.]

Some of you are forgetting that not too long ago when the Muslim extremists took over the Orthodox section of the 'Holy Church of the Nativity' and not only desecrated it but used Bibles for toilet paper! Seems like these fanatics have double standards when it comes to desecration of another religions property.

Don't forget the hundreds of pictures of Orthodox Icons with the saints eyes scratched out!

Orthodoc


Dear Orthdoc,
I don't think anybody here is trying to deminish the horror of what is happening on Kosovo. We stand boldly by your side to denounce this abominable crime against not only the Holy Orthodox Church, but against humanity.
What I am saying is, "What do you want us to do?"
I live in far off Africa. Most others live in America or Australia. What do we do to stop this hate campaign against God's church? What is happening is from the father of lies, the devil. He hates the true church with a perfect hatred.
Did Christ say being a Christian was going to be an easy ride? On the contrary. But singling out a segment of society to hate back is un-christlike. They - the evil perpertrators - are being used by satan to persecute the church. And NATO just stands by with its hands behind its back. This only goes to show they are also on satan's side.
Kosovo at this point in time is the front line of the great Cosmic Battle that has raged since lucifer lost his position in heaven.
I cry with you. I pray for the victims. There is at this one point in time only one way out. Flee!
That is what Christians through out the centuries have been doing, and the time will come, we know not when, that all of us will have to flee our homes, because anti-christ will reign for a season before the return of our Lord.
Anti-christ already has his people on the ground. They are the "faceless" ones I was speaking of in a previous post. They will use, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Atheists and even so called "Christians" to get at God's True Church. Be prepared for the worst. The world does not love us, and they do not see our plight in the same way as the Holocaust.
God bless you.
PS:  [And further guys 'n gals, I'm not 'hiiting' on anybody here. We're all "sheeple" to be used as pawns for the Money'd, 'Faceless' ones.]
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2005, 08:21:11 AM »

Hi all!

I saw this in today's Boston Globe (I've underlined what I think his strongest points are):

Quote
Why Islam is disrespected

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | May 19, 2005

It was front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don't lash out in homicidal rage when their religion is insulted. They don't call for holy war and riot in the streets. It would be unthinkable for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif, the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged Koran-flushers -- ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" -- was any reader surprised?

The Muslim riots should have been met by outrage and condemnation. From every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at Newsweek.

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.

Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world's dysfunctional political culture?

No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States."

Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet's Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to ''converge on our nation's capital for a rally against terrorism" -- and having only 50 people show up.

Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can't get the time of day.


Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com.

Link: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/19/why_islam_is_disrespected/

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2005, 12:20:54 PM »



I like the Serge Trifkovic book "Sword of the Prophet".

Thank you!  A Serbian friend told me about this book over Pascha, but since we were having a bit of fun with vodk.... water, and my shortterm memory is shot, I could remember the name.  Now I can order it from Amazon. 
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« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2005, 12:57:09 PM »

This whole thing just disgusts me, and makes me want to crawl into a hole far away from TV, newspapers, internet, etc.  It's just all so STUPID.
I realize there God has a plan for us.  We are here to suffer for him in one way or another, be it by physical torture at some religious extemist's hand, or living our lives biting our tongues and praying "
Oh Lord and master of my life, Take from the the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power and idle talk. Give rather the spirit of HUMILITY, chastity, patience and love to thy servant. Yea oh Lord and King, grant me to see MY OWN transgressions and not to judge my brothers, For thou art blessed unto ages of ages. Amen!" not just during Great Lent, but every time you are presented with such an chance to blast people. 
Chrisitianity, and particularly Orthodoxy, as the religion of Truth, is going to be more persecuted than any other religion.  We took this burden upon ourselves at our baptism.  We can't just be Christian to our fellow Orthodox, we have to be Christian to EVERYBODY. We are supposedly the religion of Love.  If we are not willing to tolerate a little media hazing, or the media ignoring us (I'm not saying be inactive, don't get me wrong), or being badmouthed, we are in the wrong religion.

Anyway, I think I am going to retreat back into my hangover-induced fog now.



 I am myself a violent pacafist, I think anyone who wants to start a war should be beaten over the head with a heavy stick.
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« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2005, 01:42:39 PM »

If we are not willing to tolerate a little media hazing, or the media ignoring us (I'm not saying be inactive, don't get me wrong), or being badmouthed, we are in the wrong religion.

If it were only being ignored, hazed or badmouthed it be a lot easier to take.

Oh, and about you and your "Serbian friend" dabbling in Vodk... water... nah, don't believe it one bit.  Everyone knows, Serbs only drink Slivo...water.
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« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2005, 03:07:57 PM »



If it were only being ignored, hazed or badmouthed it be a lot easier to take.

Oh, and about you and your "Serbian friend" dabbling in Vodk... water... nah, don't believe it one bit. Everyone knows, Serbs only drink Slivo...water.

It would be easier to take, but whoever said it would be easy?  I of course say that as someone who's never had any SERIOUS problems from people regarding religion, so who am I to say how much people can take?  But that's my 3 cents anyway.

BTW, the Serbian friend was in a Russian house, no Slivo available.  No rakia either.  He's a respectful lad who would not want to offend the resident priest by not drinking his vodk... water. :-)
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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2005, 04:15:31 AM »

Hi MBZ,
Thanks for popping by. Your input is always appreciated. Smiley
Give me a call when you're passing by this way again in transit to CT, and we'll put some meat on the coals and pop a few cans. What say you?

Go with care
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« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2005, 11:17:44 AM »

I often wonder about the role of islamic violence.  I read many yrs ago a prophecy (which could be nonsense) from the Athos that said that Islam was the leopard in Daniel. Islam would take on the whole world and be destroyed.  Is Islam a hornets nests?  Are some people stirring up the hornets so that all 'decent' people will unite to  destroy them?  Then the Temple Mount will be be retaken by the Zionists etc.   Ho! Ho! a Jewish plot?  No not necessarily - there is a difference between Torah Jews and Zioniists.  And are Zionists being used to bring about a final solution?  I just watch events, have done for a number of yrs.  Let's see what Turkey does. They want to join the EU, but they not ready as long as the Islamic fascists hold sway there.   Just my observations as 'observer" - I get a nagging feeling that we are looking in the wrong direction.  Yes Islam is a threat but not THE threat.
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« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2005, 06:35:36 PM »

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[And further guys 'n gals, I'm not 'hiiting' on anybody here. We're all "sheeple" to be used as pawns for the Money'd, 'Faceless' ones.]

I agree and disagree.  Each individual is still responsible for their actions, regardless.  Don't be fooled.  There are plenty of rich Saudis who want to keep up tesions in the middle east and they use their own religion to do it.  It's not a bunch of rich, faceless Westerners.  There are also people who want power, not money, and they'll use their religion to get it.  That includes Islam.  There are also religous zealots, fueled by Satan who raise an army of evil to destroy as much of Christ's church as they can.  These are the Islamo-fascists.  They are the most powerful legacy of Adolf Hitler.  Go to Pristinia and see the new monument to the Skanderberg SS Division, the dedication of which will no doubt be attended by UN and NATO representatives. 

http://www.serbianna.com/press/009.shtml

Quote
The memorial tomb dedicated to the heroes and victims of Nazism during World War II in Pristina has been destroyed. The plates bearing the names of fallen fighters (Serbs, Albanians, Turks and Jews) have been removed and destroyed, and the monument is today covered with graffiti celebrating the Kosovo Liberation Army.

It's too easy to blame the World Bank or "rich people."  It takes away from the fact that we all have free will and our own crosses to carry.

I love to hear the local Pacifica reporters drone on and on about how all world politics is about oil . . . and then get in their big vans and drive all over the countryside. 
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« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2005, 07:27:19 PM »

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I love to hear the local Pacifica reporters drone on and on about how all world politics is about oil . . . and then get in their big vans and drive all over the countryside.

Yea, lol.......It's like the same idiot protestors I see down here at the Capitol all the time that yell about the evils of oil & then I see some of them leave in SUV's. I would like to tell one of these 'earthy green' type people that if it wasn't for oil you would have no gas to make it to your protest.

In regards to the Newsweek fiasco, the thought occured to me that it would be impossible to flush a book down a toilet. I must be missing something here because that doesn't sound plausable to me at all unless they ripped out a few pages at a time.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2005, 06:07:46 AM »

Just my observations as 'observer" - I get a nagging feeling that we are looking in the wrong direction. Yes Islam is a threat but not THE threat.
Ahh! Someone else who can see through the 'smokescreen'!  Cheesy
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2005, 06:38:25 AM »

Christos voskresye!!
Dear brothers and sisters,
Shakespeare said “All the worlds a stage and all the men and women merely players GǪ “
Many things he said are right so if this world is a stage, and these powers, religious, and political, are players, as I might say, then all are playing for their own reasons.  Power, money, reputations, or perhaps simply spite? To fly against everything the rest of the stage respects?  Could not this be what many of these fundamentalists are doing? Spite cause pain, yes. Minds ruled by spite have no cares for as much pain they cause to as many people. Just a thought.  Otherwise so much is without sense.
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2005, 03:20:07 PM »

Hi all!

It's Saturday night here. Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath) is out. Da Boyz are asleep. DW is on the couch watching the Eurovision Song Contest. The hamster is doing her hamster thing & I am surfing through cyberspace.

Cizinec, you posted:

Quote
Each individual is still responsible for their actions, regardless. Don't be fooled. There are plenty of rich Saudis who want to keep up tesions in the middle east and they use their own religion to do it. It's not a bunch of rich, faceless Westerners. There are also people who want power, not money, and they'll use their religion to get it. That includes Islam...It's too easy to blame the World Bank or "rich people." It takes away from the fact that we all have free will and our own crosses to carry.

Well said!

Quote
I love to hear the local Pacifica reporters...

 Huh

Kolya, you posted:

Quote
Thanks for popping by.

You're welcome!

Quote
Your input is always appreciated.

Thankee!

Quote
Give me a call when you're passing by this way again in transit to CT, and we'll put some meat on the coals and pop a few cans. What say you?

Will do (as long as the meat is kosher & the grid on the grill is new)!

Actually, we might be coming to Dromie (from darom, the Hebrew word for "south", the local euphemism for South Africa) next year. DW has a good friend in Jo'burg whose son will be having a bar mitzvah (http://www.jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm) the week before Passover.

I find that of all the SA lagers, I like Windhoek Lager :brew: from Namibia best.

In Genesis 16:11-12, God tells Hagar, who is pregnant with Ishmael:

Quote
Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; and you shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction. And he shall be a wild donkey of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.

I often wonder about how this may apply to Ishmael's descendants, i.e. the Arabs.

Be well!

MBZ



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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2005, 04:22:33 PM »

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I love to hear the local Pacifica reporters Huh

Pacifica is a US public radio network, somewhat similar to NPR, though left of (US) centre, as opposed to NPR, which is slightly right of centre.
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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2005, 10:08:11 PM »

Personally, I'd do a lot more to the Koran than just flush it down a toilet. This story is really only making such big of news because of the reaction in the Muslim world.
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« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2005, 12:13:29 AM »

NPR is slightly right of center?  Pacifica plays Cuban radio here in Houston daily.  I'd call that a tad further than "left of center."  I love to listen to their "news" programming, if only for a great laugh. 

Since we're quoting plays as if it proves something, how about a bit from James Goldman's The Lion in Winter:

"How clear we make it.  Oh, my piglets, we're the origins of war.  Not history's forces nor the times nor justice nor the lack of it nor causes nor religions nor ideas nor kinds of government nor any other thing.  We are the killers; we breed war.  We carry it, like syphilis, inside.  Dead bodies rot in field and stream because the living ones are rotten."

Act One, Scene Five, Eleanor speaking to her children.  I've always loved that little speech, primarily because it takes away the simple ability to find that all the world's ills are caused by some "others" who can be conveniently blamed for our own sicknesses.
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« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2005, 12:33:37 AM »

NPR - the Nationalist Peoples' Radio - right-of-center? I don't think so...  Cheesy

Pacifica must be 'out there'.
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« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2005, 12:46:54 AM »

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NPR - the Nationalist Peoples' Radio - right-of-center? I don't think so...  Cheesy

LoL....yep...geeez, do we have like communist frequenting the board now?
I would call NPR left of left.....sometimes so far left they are almost right sometimes.... laugh
Just take a look at Bill Moyers show and you'll see what I'm talking about. I guess some bias is fine sometimes (example CNN & Fox ), but I don't want to hear some hack yapping 24/7 because they have an agenda.   
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« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2005, 05:16:35 AM »

Hi all!

Thanks for the info on Pacifica. I've been here for 18.5 years & I don't think that it was around when I left the USA.

This was in Friday's Wall Street Journal:

Quote
COMMENTARY

Hypocrisy Most Holy

By ALI AL-AHMED

May 20, 2005

With the revelation that a copy of the Quran may have been desecrated by U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Muslims and their governments -- including that of Saudi Arabia -- reacted angrily. This anger would have been understandable if the U.S. government's adopted policy was to desecrate our Quran. But even before the Newsweek report was discredited, that was never part of the allegations.

As a Muslim, I am able to purchase copies of the Quran in any bookstore in any American city, and study its contents in countless American universities. American museums spend millions to exhibit and celebrate Muslim arts and heritage. On the other hand, my Christian and other non-Muslim brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia -- where I come from -- are not even allowed to own a copy of their holy books. Indeed, the Saudi government desecrates and burns Bibles that its security forces confiscate at immigration points into the kingdom or during raids on Christian expatriates worshiping privately.

Soon after Newsweek published an account, later retracted, of an American soldier flushing a copy of the Quran down the toilet, the Saudi government voiced its strenuous disapproval. More specifically, the Saudi Embassy in Washington expressed "great concern" and urged the U.S. to "conduct a quick investigation."

Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Quran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia. This would seem curious to most people because of the fact that to most Muslims, the Bible is a holy book. But when it comes to Saudi Arabia we are not talking about most Muslims, but a tiny minority of hard-liners who constitute the Wahhabi Sect.

The Bible in Saudi Arabia may get a person killed, arrested, or deported. In September 1993, Sadeq Mallallah, 23, was beheaded in Qateef on a charge of apostasy for owning a Bible. The State Department's annual human rights reports detail the arrest and deportation of many Christian worshipers every year. Just days before Crown Prince Abdullah met President Bush last month, two Christian gatherings were stormed in Riyadh. Bibles and crosses were confiscated, and will be incinerated. (The Saudi government does not even spare the Quran from desecration. On Oct. 14, 2004, dozens of Saudi men and women carried copies of the Quran as they protested in support of reformers in the capital, Riyadh. Although they carried the Qurans in part to protect themselves from assault by police, they were charged by hundreds of riot police, who stepped on the books with their shoes, according to one of the protesters.)

As Muslims, we have not been as generous as our Christian and Jewish counterparts in respecting others' holy books and religious symbols. Saudi Arabia bans the importation or the display of crosses, Stars of David or any other religious symbols not approved by the Wahhabi establishment. TV programs that show Christian clergymen, crosses or Stars of David are censored.

The desecration of religious texts and symbols and intolerance of varying religious viewpoints and beliefs have been issues of some controversy inside Saudi Arabia. Ruled by a Wahhabi theocracy, the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia have made it difficult for Christians, Jews, Hindus and others, as well as dissenting sects of Islam, to visibly coexist inside the kingdom.

Another way in which religious and cultural issues are becoming more divisive is the Saudi treatment of Americans who are living in that country: Around 30,000 live and work in various parts of Saudi Arabia. These people are not allowed to celebrate their religious or even secular holidays. These include Christmas and Easter, but also Thanksgiving. All other Gulf states allow non-Islamic holidays to be celebrated.

The Saudi Embassy and other Saudi organizations in Washington have distributed hundreds of thousands of Qurans and many more Muslim books, some that have libeled Christians, Jews and others as pigs and monkeys. In Saudi school curricula, Jews and Christians are considered deviants and eternal enemies. By contrast, Muslim communities in the West are the first to admit that Western countries -- especially the U.S. -- provide Muslims the strongest freedoms and protections that allow Islam to thrive in the West. Meanwhile Christianity and Judaism, both indigenous to the Middle East, are maligned through systematic hostility by Middle Eastern governments and their religious apparatuses.

The lesson here is simple: If Muslims wish other religions to respect their beliefs and their Holy book, they should lead by example.

Mr. al-Ahmed is director of the Saudi Institute in Washington.

Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB111653650439338424,00.html?mod=opinion&ojcontent=otep

Note where the author writes from, i.e. the USA & not Saudi Arabia. The Bill of Rights is a nifty thing.

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2005, 09:35:39 AM »

I've never considered National Public Radio to be leftist or communist. Good heavens! Its CENTRIST. It is not right wing like Fox News, and it is not reactionary like Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, but to call it "communist" is simply absurd.
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« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2005, 11:19:04 AM »

MBZ,
You said:

Quote
Will do (as long as the meat is kosher & the grid on the grill is new)!

Actually, we might be coming to Dromie (from darom, the Hebrew word for "south", the local euphemism for South Africa) next year.  DW has a good friend in Jo'burg whose son will be having a bar mitzvah (http://www.jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm) the week before Passover.
I find that of all the SA lagers, I like Windhoek Lager  from Namibia best.

You’re on! New grill just for you and the best Kosher Jo’burg can offer!!! (And Windhoek)

Quote
In Genesis 16:11-12, God tells Hagar, who is pregnant with Ishmael:

Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; and you shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.  And he shall be a wild donkey of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.

I often wonder about how this may apply to Ishmael's descendants, i.e. the Arabs. 
I’d stick my neck out here and say that prophesy is spot-on! 

Go well.

Kolya
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2005, 02:33:04 PM »


I've always loved that little speech, primarily because it takes away the simple ability to find that all the world's ills are caused by some "others" who can be conveniently blamed for our own sicknesses.

So, like all hands that point, there three fingers pointing back to one who is pointing, yes?
Very, very interesting thought.
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2005, 03:39:38 PM »

I've never considered National Public Radio to be leftist or communist. Good heavens! Its CENTRIST. It is not right wing like Fox News, and it is not reactionary like Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, but to call it "communist" is simply absurd.

Now THAT is funny! How perceptions are relative, I mean. I hold Mike Savage to be reactionary, Rush far right, Sean mid-right, FOX in the middle, and NPR a big left of center. Oh, and me...I am a cynic.
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2005, 03:43:56 PM »

I see that MBZ quoted a Wall Street Journal piece on Newsweek. They also had a piece last week by a former Newsweek editor who stated that the magazine (and by extension, all of us) should have KNOWN that to a Muslim the words of the Koran, written or spoken in Arabic, are as close to their Eucharist as that concept can be applied. While I have no warm, fuzzy feelings for Islam in general, he had a good point. There was no point is directly insulting them.
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2005, 03:49:31 PM »

Now THAT is funny! How perceptions are relative, I mean. I hold Mike Savage to be reactionary, Rush far right, Sean mid-right, FOX in the middle, and NPR a big left of center. Oh, and me...I am a cynic.

I can somewhat see your point and the reasonings behind your classifications. This is hardly an exact science after all.  I'd actually agree with your classification of Savage, Rush, and Sean (and in that order as well).  However, I wouldn't put Fox in the middle. For me it would be slightly right of center. NPR would be dead center, in my view. And really leftist, to me, would be Molly Ivins and Mother Jones.  Just some thoughts.
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2005, 05:41:39 PM »

You could say Savage is a reactionary but what I like about the guy is that he bashes both the greedy check-pants repubs. and the left. I agree with most of what he says and his motto is that he's for whatever is good for America basically (Borders, language & culture). He always interviews interesting people like Pat Buchanan and recently he has had a few presidents of some of the bigger Unions on talking about how much Nafta & now Cafta are screwing over the middle class in this country. I also enjoy the entertainment value and how he rants about the empty suites & skirts in Washington and the media. I can't really stand listening to Sean, Rush, or the degenerates on Air America because they are just hacks and water carriers for their poltical parties/special interest groups. His latest new idea is outsouring the congress to India since they have no problem with giving into the greedy millionares/billionares that are outsourcing our jobs to slave camps in China & other places on top of flooding our country with illegal immigrants. Also, the Indians would do a better job than the congress is now and we would save a bundle of money.. Grin Another great idea is his oil for illegals program. Since Mexico is so oil rich they should give us one barrel of oil per month for every illegal alien in the country. That would work out to roughly 1/12 of the oil we consume and it would be a fair trade off for the billions in taxes the american people pay for the extra social services used by the illegals. 
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2005, 07:48:47 PM »

Nacho:
     You make a good point about Savage. Despite the fact that he is extremely outspoken, he is most refreshing in that he DOES question agendas, whether it be the agenda of the right or the agenda of the left.  I love how Savage disagrees with President Bush on NAFTA and CAFTA and is not afraid to say so.  I get the impression that Hannity and Limbaugh would NEVER criticize Bush for anything. And anyone, be he right, left or centrist, who says "my President, right or wrong" or "my Party right or wrong" isn't objective at all, but simply a mouthpiece for a preconceived agenda.
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2005, 09:29:16 PM »

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Nacho:
     You make a good point about Savage. Despite the fact that he is extremely outspoken, he is most refreshing in that he DOES question agendas, whether it be the agenda of the right or the agenda of the left.  I love how Savage disagrees with President Bush on NAFTA and CAFTA and is not afraid to say so.  I get the impression that Hannity and Limbaugh would NEVER criticize Bush for anything. And anyone, be he right, left or centrist, who says "my President, right or wrong" or "my Party right or wrong" isn't objective at all, but simply a mouthpiece for a preconceived agenda.

Yea, lol in fact he has been bashing on the prez. quite alot lately. I laugh my a@@ off when he makes fun of people on the right.. He's been making fun of Rush almost on a daily basis and his nickname for him is "Hush Bimbo." He's always making funny little comments like, "well, you won't hear about this from Hush Bimbo because he thinks GWB is the best thing since Jesus Christ himself," or the best is when he'll play a clip from Hush's show & then have little mock takes from it like, "Well, Mr. Cheney & I were smoking cigars on my Gulf Stream jet and we decided that the best thing to do would not to raise the min. wage and let the free market decide on where wages should be (evil laugh haha)."  He also calls Sean Hannity "Pawn Vannity" and he also talks alot of trash about the wishy washy Bill O'Reilly whom he calls the "Leper-Con" lol. He says his job is to "mock the mockers," and it's hilarious because he does it to both the mockers on the right & left. I would probably describe him as a conservative independent, but he also champions alot of the economic values of the old school democrats which is pretty cool. He's really the only guy I can listen to on radio because he tells it like it is for the most part and I love how agressive and funny he can be at times. The best is when he goes off on some hack that is trying to set him up when they call in and he verbally rips them into shreds within seconds.... Cheesy
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2005, 10:17:44 PM »

Nacho:
     You make a good point about Savage. Despite the fact that he is extremely outspoken, he is most refreshing in that he DOES question agendas...

Does he ever question his own agenda to defame the Left at any cost? What if people actually started believing that liberalism is a "mental disorder"?
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« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2005, 12:22:47 AM »

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Does he ever question his own agenda to defame the Left at any cost? What if people actually started believing that liberalism is a "mental disorder"?

...and you don't think it is? Maybe you should read his new book "Liberalism is a mental disorder" to get the proper context of what he means. Also, what is his agenda? His beliefs are allover the map, thus he's very critical of both political parties and how they only serve their own special interest groups that fund them. The only agenda he has is to see to it that America prospers and that the average working american makes a fair wage which is becoming increasingly harder these days when we are 'opened' up for competition in a global market. You should listen to his show to really understand what he's talking about before making judgements about him. So what if he doesn't like far left elements in this country, they are also doing alot that's not good for the average person.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2005, 12:29:09 AM »

So what if he doesn't like far left elements in this country, they are also doing alot that's not good for the average person. Roll Eyes

One could say the same of the right-wing extremism which dominates today's political climate.
In truth, one could describe me as a "moderate conservative". However, I do not like to use the term "conservative" because of how foolish politics has become. Last time I checked, "conservatism" did not denote massive deficit spending and unnecessary war.
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« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2005, 12:30:32 AM »

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One could say the same of the right-wing extremism which dominates today's political climate.

you clearly dont live in NYC.

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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2005, 01:18:39 AM »

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One could say the same of the right-wing extremism which dominates today's political climate.
In truth, one could describe me as a "moderate conservative". However, I do not like to use the term "conservative" because of how foolish politics has become. Last time I checked, "conservatism" did not denote massive deficit spending and unnecessary war.

Hmmm, well you obviously don't listen to Savage at all because he's been saying for a long time the problems with the war and deficit. Also, there are really no true "conservatives" left in government, read some of Pat Buchanan's books especially the one called "Where the Right went wrong." What we have are big spending liberal types that happen to be conservative on some social issues.Also, your comment about "right wing extremism" is just silly, todays so called conservatives are just yesterday's liberals. I agree with you for the most part with what you wrote. I'm very conservative on social issues but centrist on economic issues. I don't care for the extreme capitalism either that permeates this country because it's having devastating effects on the family unit. I guess I would describe myself as somewhat of an old school southern democrat if they are still around. Conservative on social issues, but economically for the working man who are the backbone of this country. If anyone finds a politican like this, please tell me. 

Quote
you clearly dont live in NYC.

We have the same problem in California. Businesses are leaving for Nevada in droves along with alot of middle class type people because of the lawyers and crazy leftists that run Sacramento. Trust me, I see the insanity everyday because I work in the political arena and see it first hand at the capitol. Special intrerest run this state and any politician that goes against them are branded a traitor. 

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« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2005, 02:54:26 AM »

If anyone finds a politican like this, please tell me. 

Roy Moore 2008
http://constitutionparty.com/

What we have are big spending liberal types that happen to be conservative on some social issues.

Hellooooooooo Mr. Bush Smiley

Ironically, the true fiscal conservatives are the Democrats. Just compare Clinton to Bush.
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« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2005, 03:15:13 AM »

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Roy Moore 2008

LoL, that would never happen in a million years but it would be nice.


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Ironically, the true fiscal conservatives are the Democrats. Just compare Clinton to Bush.

Sadly I would have to agree with you about Clinton. He was really good on economic issues (except for NAFTA) and I thought he did a pretty good job when it came to that. Now I wouldn't say the dems of today are fiscal conservatives because I really don't think there are any left in any party. Basically, the dems & repubs spend way too much, and what it really comes down to is where the money will be spent and who's special interest will be served. 
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« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2005, 12:21:56 PM »

Oh oh.......the islamist would have nothing to do with hypocracy now would they? Look at this newstory that just came out.
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=ForeignBureausarchive200505FOR20050523b.html

Saudi's Destroy Bibles, Think Tank Affirms

Taken from CNS News.com

<excerpt>

Saudis Do Destroy Bibles, Think Tank Affirms
By Patrick Goodenough
CNSNews.com International Editor
May 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - A U.S.-based think tank critical of the Saudi government has added its voice to allegations that authorities in the kingdom routinely destroy Bibles.

"As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps Bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia," the Saudi Institute said in an article posted on its website.

"Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Koran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, and is confiscated and destroyed by government officials," it said.

Last week a Christian pastor who worked in Saudi Arabia during the 1990s told the Cybercast News Service it was widely known among underground Christians there that Bibles were confiscated -- and sometimes shredded -- by Saudi customs officials at ports of entry.

The Saudi Embassy in Washington has yet to respond to emailed queries about its policies regarding the Bibles and the shredding allegations.

Saudi Arabia was one of the first governments to protest after Newsweek reported earlier this month that U.S. troops had thrown a Koran into a toilet to fluster Muslim terror suspects being detained by the U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

A statement issued on May 12 said the Saudi government was "following with great concern and apprehension reports that the sanctity of the Holy Koran has been violated on several occasions at Guantanamo Bay."

Following rioting in Afghanistan and protests elsewhere in the Muslim world, Newsweek retracted the report. It said its unnamed government source was no longer certain about his original claim that he saw the Koran flushing mentioned in a military report of abuse at the base.

Home to Islam's two most revered sites, in Mecca and Medina, Saudi Arabia views itself as guardian of the religion. The kingdom is committed to the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology, and non-Wahhabi Muslim traditions are frowned upon.

Human rights campaigners name Saudi Arabia as one of the world's most egregious violators of religious freedom.

<snip>
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« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2005, 12:25:23 PM »

Time to burn Saudi flags, go wild in the streets and go on a jihad?........oh I forgot we don't do that in the west when our holy book is desecrated by the thousands.... Roll Eyes It's so weird seeing these people in action, it's like looking through a warmwhole 1200 years into the past.
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« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2005, 12:42:28 PM »

Didn't see this article posted here yet.

http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2005/May_20/33.html
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« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2005, 01:01:33 PM »

Cizinec,

     You know, it really is sad... I mean it isn't anything I didn't know, but what hypocrites.  Great article, too bad it won't catch on.  Orthodox Holy sites aren't worth a hill of beans to the world.
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« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2005, 03:23:19 PM »

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On the other hand, I also believe that justice demands that Muslims who have burned down or blown up 140 Churches in Kosovo owe Christians throughout the world an apology and that Muslims need to rebuild or at least finance the rebuilding of every one of those Christian churches.

This should not be hard to do. It is something the United Nations might be capable of doing. After all, those Churches were destroyed during the time that Kosovo has been controlled by the United Nations. A just and workable solution to this situation would be to require Christians to replace the Koran for every Guantanamo Bay inmate who had his Koran flushed down the toilet in exchange for the Muslims replacing every Christian church Muslims destroyed in Kosovo and other nations.

 :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:

It will be a cold day in hell when the islamo-fascist stop bombing christian churches and the UN actually does something about rebuilding them. I don't think you can reason with these people at all. When I read what they are doing to our holy places I keep thinking of that famous line by George Orwell who said, "If they come to put a bomb in your mothers house, put a bomb in their mothers' house first."  The only thing that I can say right now is that God watches and waites.......
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« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2005, 03:12:58 PM »

I have an idea for a SNL sketch - although it would be way to PC to do -- would go something like this:

Have Bush sitting down in the morning at breakfast reading the Quran. In walks Dick Cheney and says "Morning Mr. President, what are you reading?" Bush replies, "Well, Dick, gotta read this Quran thing. See what all the fuss is about. Gotta meet with a representative of those Muslim folks from the UN today". Then it is announced that teh representative is here. The Representative comes in and Bush asks a question about the Quran and the representative tells him it is further along in the book. Bush says "Show me where. Oh wait! Don't want to loose my place!" Bush looks around for a bookmark, and he can't find one - so he takes a flat strip of bacon off his plate and uses it as a bookmark.

Then more things like that happen...
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« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2005, 11:13:10 PM »

We keep discussing the pros and cons of the hornets.  Moslem terrorists are being used to undermine Christianity (I believe).  You set nests around the world and then stir them up to sting everyone.  Eventually 'decent' people will take action into their own hands. I heard today that doctors in US have to be sensitive to Moslems.  No using left hand to examine patients, plenty of prayer rugs in waiting room and don't forget that women are second-class.  Norway has 3% population Moslem with 98% crime being committed by them.  Whatever happened to the Vikings?
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« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2005, 12:24:25 AM »

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We keep discussing the pros and cons of the hornets.  Moslem terrorists are being used to undermine Christianity (I believe).  You set nests around the world and then stir them up to sting everyone.  Eventually 'decent' people will take action into their own hands. I heard today that doctors in US have to be sensitive to Moslems.  No using left hand to examine patients, plenty of prayer rugs in waiting room and don't forget that women are second-class.  Norway has 3% population Moslem with 98% crime being committed by them.  Whatever happened to the Vikings?

LoL.....You got caught!! You must have been listening to Michael Savage today when that Doctor called in discussing how he has to be 'seennsssiiitive' to the needs of muslims..... Roll Eyes That's just got to infuriate you when they are demanding special needs on the rest of us. I really like listening to him because you get the scoop of what's really going on in this crazy world of ours. I remember when the whole Kosovo debacle was going on he was the only person in the media who exposed what was really happening and how the deviants at the UN painted UN & NATO insignias on our american jet fighter planes thinking they were sly or something. He still talks about it alot today and how we took the side of the radical islamo-facist thugs. There is no excuse EVER for what the hell we did when we dropped bombs on an Orthodox Country. Notice how they never showed pictures of what happened? They won't show you the thousands of dead innocent Serbs and they won't show you the bridges they bombed to pieces over the Danube. In regards to Norway there is no hope for them at all. Their insane liberalism has caused their own destruction 'within' and now they have to pay the price. Sucks for them... Roll Eyes

Quote
I have an idea for a SNL sketch - although it would be way to PC to do -- would go something like this:

Have Bush sitting down in the morning at breakfast reading the Quran. In walks Dick Cheney and says "Morning Mr. President, what are you reading?" Bush replies, "Well, Dick, gotta read this Quran thing. See what all the fuss is about. Gotta meet with a representative of those Muslim folks from the UN today". Then it is announced that teh representative is here. The Representative comes in and Bush asks a question about the Quran and the representative tells him it is further along in the book. Bush says "Show me where. Oh wait! Don't want to loose my place!" Bush looks around for a bookmark, and he can't find one - so he takes a flat strip of bacon off his plate and uses it as a bookmark.

Then more things like that happen...

Haha.... Grin....That's such a great idea! I doubt it would be done though because we wouldn't want to create any riots half the world away now would we? I would also create a skit on Amnesty International who just came out and said we are the biggest human rights abusers in the entire world. I guess they have nothing to say about all those nice places of torture in the middle east and the slavery of women......to them if you 'mishandle' a Quran or even look at it the wrong way then you should be put before an international tribunal for crimes against humanity... Roll Eyes Maybe their buddies in the ACLU who like to hang out with NAMBLA can give them a hand also. They could all meet in Brussels at the hauge and have one big bath house party and Pinchy Solsberger from the New York Times could cover the event and put it on the front page.... Grin

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« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2005, 12:55:46 AM »

HAHA....I just saw this. Does anyone here read Scrappleface? This is so funny... Grin

http://www.scrappleface.com/

U.S. Blamed for Koran Harm in WTC Collapse
by Scott Ott

(2005-05-27) -- Muslims in Pakistan and Afghanistan rioted today in response to new reports that copies of the Koran were desecrated when two American buildings collapsed after being struck by American airplanes in September of 2001.

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) revealed that fragments of the burned and soiled Korans were discovered in the ruins of the World Trade Center towers in New York City.

A spokesman for the ACLU said the Bush administration did little to prevent the damage to the Islamic holy books, that apparently belonged to Muslims who worked in the office towers until their "unjustified termination" during the morning of September 11, 2001.

"This is just another example of U.S. insensitivity to cultural diversity," said the unnamed ACLU spokesman. "To add insult to injury, anonymous sources say that some of the Koran fragments may have been unceremoniously dumped in a landfill."


------Here's another good one... Cheesy

Baghdad Mosque Closings Spark Weapons Shortage
by Scott Ott

(2005-05-21) -- Since Friday's announcement by a Sunni Muslim cleric that Baghdad's Sunni Mosques would close for three days to protest killings blamed on Iraqi security forces, consumers said they're struggling to find alternate sources for weaponry.

"My children and I stood on line at a back-alley dealer for seven hours just to buy mortar rounds," said one unnamed local resident. "My uncle just called and he's got one rocket-propelled grenade left, and has completely exhausted his family's supply of roadside bombs."

Indeed, industry sources report that the price of all kinds of small armaments jumped 73 percent within minutes of the announcement that the mosques would close.

"When you get an improvised explosive device at the mosque, you can rely on the quality," said one unnamed regular customer. "But a lot of the stuff you buy on the street is shoddy work that might send you to Allah before you get to the crowd of infidels. I think we're going to see a lot of second-rate martyrdom work until the mosques re-open."
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« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2005, 01:17:46 AM »

The thing we need to remember is that Islamic extremists take advantage of the 'non-united' and splintered Christian faith.  One major motivation for the EO and RC to give some semblance of 'unity' if not full unity, is the need to stand together in the face of such an adversary as Islam.  As to The Guantanamo fiasco.. The media looks for what sells magazines... and anything about Islam is  a hot topic... Orthodox Christianity is not on their radar screen...because they are only looking for what will sell mags to lots of people...Betcha right now most reporters  know more about Islam than Orthodox Christianity.   When they used to report on Kosovo, they rarely mentioned 'Orthodox' Christians in the discussion.  Now they got everyone worried about another Jihad.. and people will be buying more magazines for 'chapter 3' of the saga... Today I was listening to the radio and the newscaster  said "The Pentagon now says that there was mishandling of the Quran"  Well what the Pentagon said was that it wasn't flushed.. the guy who said it was never even saw it .. just heard about it... and that there were some accounts that could be broadly  called 'mishandling' of the Quran." So why did the newscaster change the emphasis on the words to completel mislead the listener... even after they played the Pentagon official's report, the newscaster said it wrong again...leaving the listener to believe things were worse than they were! 
Dont' these guys know that there are people waiting with bombs ready to explode with any provocation... !

I am paranoid now... heard that travel this summer will be back to pre -911 levels.. we're going to Greece for the first time in many decades... My trip better not get 'messed up'.. because of these stupid irresponsible reporters...!.
In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2005, 02:03:28 AM »

It is rather ironic that the Bush administration is blaming Newsweek for costing lives with false information while they are the ones who started an entire war on intentionally false information. Derrrrrr.  Afro
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« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2005, 02:15:40 AM »

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It is rather ironic that the Bush administration is blaming Newsweek for costing lives with false information while they are the ones who started an entire war on intentionally false information. Derrrrrr

Uhhh.....what does the war in Iraq have to do with riots in Pakistan and Afghanistan? The people in those two countries were inflamed when that story from newsweek came out about the koran being flushed down the toilet....at no point did Iraq ever come up. I think you need to check your facts before you make such absurd accusations. Newsweek should take all the blame for being such a hack organization that will print anything they think will sell... :flame:
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« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2005, 02:51:12 AM »

Please consider the irony: When Newsweek makes a mistake (the release of this questionable story that inspired rioting) that costs lives, the Bush administration accuses them of bad journalism. When the Bush administration intentionally makes a mistake that costs thousands of lives (the war in Iraq), they call it "patriotism".
Has anyone read any of the recently leaked British intelligence memo which confirms what we should have known all along, that Bush wanted to invade Iraq from the beginning and cherry-picked the intelligence to fit his preconceived conclusions?

"SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL -- UK EYES ONLY

From: Matthew Rycroft

Date: 23 July 2002

S 195 /02

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action..."
http://www.inlander.com/topstory/283392740306786.php
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« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2005, 03:15:29 AM »

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Please consider the irony: When Newsweek makes a mistake (the release of this questionable story that inspired rioting) that costs lives, the Bush administration accuses them of bad journalism. When the Bush administration intentionally makes a mistake that costs thousands of lives (the war in Iraq), they call it patriotism.
Has anyone read any of the recently leaked Brittish intelligence memo which confirms what we should have known all along, that Bush wanted to invade Iraq from the beginning and cherry-picked the intelligence to fit his preconceived conclusions?

Look, I'm no defender of this war either...I had thoughts way back then of this war being a big mistake when something like 85% of the populace and the majority of congress thought it was a great idea. If the president and congress knew the mess that would be involved with Iraq now, I doubt they would have voted to invade at all. It's very silly and immature for you to play the "hindsight" game now. Tony Blair and other leaders of very liberal countries made the same claims that Sadam was building up a nuclear arsenal and weapons of mass destruction. So Mathew, are you ready to claim there was some kind of conspiracy since these countries including the U.N made all the same claims about Iraq?.... :flame: 
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« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2005, 06:24:04 PM »

If the president and congress knew the mess that would be involved with Iraq now, I doubt they would have voted to invade at all.

Did you read the article? The point is that Bush knew the intelligence to be false but presented it to Congress, the American people and the world as a smoke-screen. The memo really is the "smoking gun".
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« Reply #87 on: May 28, 2005, 11:02:06 PM »

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Did you read the article? The point is that Bush knew the intelligence to be false but presented it to Congress, the American people and the world as a smoke-screen. The memo really is the "smoking gun".

So you found one stinkin' report that makes it appear so. I could probably find others that say otherwise. Can you please explain to me since you seem to be an expert in foreign policy how anti-war people like John Kerry and Diane Fienstein who looked at the same intelligence as the prez. came to the same conclusion of Iraq being a threat thus voting for the war? Please also explain how other rational liberal type people like Tony Blair also came to the same conclusion in other countries? Why did the UN also claim that he had all these nuclear stockpiles? Since you know more than all these people I'm really looking forward for you to enlighten us with your vast knowledge of the subject....... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2005, 01:07:54 AM »

Firstly, the point on Tony Blair is that he knew the intelligence to be false also, but agreed to go to war with Iraq as long as we went after Al Qaeda first.
The UN weapons inspectors, including Hans Blix, agreed that Iraq did not have stockpiles of nuclear weapons.
John Kerry, like other members of Congress, trusted the president to present a truthful rationale for war and like other politicians in the aftermath of 9/11, was afraid of sounding "unpatriotic" by opposing the war.
The Constitution Party has been against this war from the very beginning. Why? There is absolutely nothing conservative about it. The only thing that I can compare it to, invading a defenseless nation for frivilous reasons, is fascism or empirialism.
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« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2005, 06:14:12 AM »

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Firstly, the point on Tony Blair is that he knew the intelligence to be false also, but agreed to go to war with Iraq as long as we went after Al Qaeda first.
The UN weapons inspectors, including Hans Blix, agreed that Iraq did not have stockpiles of nuclear weapons.
John Kerry, like other members of Congress, trusted the president to present a truthful rationale for war and like other politicians in the aftermath of 9/11, was afraid of sounding "unpatriotic" by opposing the war.
The Constitution Party has been against this war from the very beginning. Why? There is absolutely nothing conservative about it. The only thing that I can compare it to, invading a defenseless nation for frivilous reasons, is fascism or empirialism.

Mathew, your comment about fascism makes you sound like a moonbat. Fascism would be for us to actually take over Iraq and impose our will on them. Instead, Iraq had a free election where the majority of it's citizens turned out to vote because it was something they have been yearning for a long time. We are training over 100,000 Iraq policemen and soldiers so that soon they will have complete control over their affairs and our military can come home. All in all, it's better for the world and the people of Iraq that Sadam is gone. It's too bad you highlight the negative over the greater good. The military people over in Iraq also see it differently than you also.

Your also wrong about Blix and all the UN resolutions which stated that Sadam did in fact have these weapons. The whole purpose of the 17 UN resolutions against Sadam was for him to give up his stockpiles. He did not comply when he kicked out the UN inspectors on numerous occasions. What's the point of a resolution is it's not going to be upheld? We were just holding up our end of the bargain in the resolutions which stated if there was no cooperation and full compliance that military action would be eventually taken. Your also wrong about Kerry, Feintstein and the majority of the other Dems that agreed and voted for military action. They saw all the same intelligence reports from the CIA that the president saw and came to the same conclusions. Kerry was asked on numerous occasions later  if he regretted the way he voted and he said he did not because he beleived at the time Iraq was a threat from all the intelligence reports he looked over. It was not just coming from the CIA, but other countries like Egypt, Britian, Australia, Spain, etc. had very similiar "claims" that indeed these WMD's were existence. It's best to set aside your emotions and political beliefs when looking at the facts. I was a big supporter of the war also but now I'm indifferent. I basically think that we can't really judge the outcome of all this for another 5 years. If down the road everything is going very well for Iraq then it may have been worth it, but for now I'll just sit on the sidelines.
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« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2005, 03:06:54 PM »

Instead, Iraq had a free election where the majority of it's citizens turned out to vote because it was something they have been yearning for a long time.

Under fascism, "free" elections are held also.

All in all, it's better for the world and the people of Iraq that Sadam is gone.

Is our military and homeland security better of with this war? Our defense budget could have been spent more wisely and our soldiers could be hunting the ones who actually attacked us.

Your also wrong about Blix and all the UN resolutions which stated that Sadam did in fact have these weapons.

Blix has protested the war from the beginning and has attested that Saddam's weapons program was virtually destroyed after the first Gulf War.

They saw all the same intelligence reports from the CIA that the president saw and came to the same conclusions.

The CIA intellgience report was accompanied with a report from the state department that warned that WMD's may not actually exist in Iraq. It should be clear now that the intelligence presented to Congress was intentionally deceptive.
Why else would Colin Powell shout, "I can't read this, this is bull****!" before presenting the intelligence information to the UN?
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« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2005, 10:12:41 PM »

Quote
Under fascism, "free" elections are held also.

Ohh no, I know our horrible 'liberal' democratic western values is so fascistic that I'm shocked the whole country hasn't had an uprising over their suppression of 'choice'..... Roll Eyes We sure are ruling that country with an iron fist just like Britain used to do in territories across the globe... Roll Eyes Seeing how fascist we are, next thing you know there could be American flags flying next the Iraqi flag and maybe even a McDonald's here or there. The horrors of it all is starting to give me the chills. Also, we may actually stay for another one or two years, which make us ultra-fascist bent on controlling every aspect of Iraqi society. I'm surprised we didn't do anything when the american backed Shiate party lost in the election. As fascist we should have raided that place and declared the election results as being not valid.

Quote
Is our military and homeland security better of with this war? Our defense budget could have been spent more wisely and our soldiers could be hunting the ones who actually attacked us.

I will not argue with you on this point. That's a valid criticism that I have also.

Quote
Blix has protested the war from the beginning and has attested that Saddam's weapons program was virtually destroyed after the first Gulf War.

This may be so....but he still tried to get Iraq to cooperate when they were doing the inspections which was a hard thing for them to do because of Sadam's unwillingness.

Quote
The CIA intellgience report was accompanied with a report from the state department that warned that WMD's may not actually exist in Iraq. It should be clear now that the intelligence presented to Congress was intentionally deceptive.
Why else would Colin Powell shout, "I can't read this, this is bull****!" before presenting the intelligence information to the UN?

All in all, there was much more evidence that pointed to existing weapons being there. You are not giving a fair representation of all the facts. I'm looking at everything in context while you are just looking at what you want to see and hear which obviously backs your point of view. Why would the CIA say that the evidence was so overwhelming that it was a 'slam dunk'?  I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There have been much worse wars like us bombing Serbia without even going to the UN. Atleast with this war we spent about a year going to the UN to get them to back their previous resolutions and the few countries who didn't join us also happened to be the same ones caught doing dirty business with Sadam. 



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« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2005, 11:53:49 PM »



 Atleast with this war we spent about a year going to the UN to get them to back their previous resolutions and the few countries who didn't join us also happened to be the same ones caught doing dirty business with Sadam.



Nacho, right-o!  This whole Iraq thing has caught some interesting groups 'red handed'... and in the end the whole financing of Islamic terrorism with the 'food for oil' program'...I'm wondering if in fact someone suspected  this all along and had to find a way to smoke it out...  Not hard to see why  UN support for invading Iraq was tough when some were involved in the crooked schemes...busting that up is probably one of the more important benefits... WMD was one thing, but  the food for oil program was a real eye opener... and I think the more we dig the more will be learned about who is financing Islamic terrorist regimes....
In the end, protecting Christianity will depend on combating Islamic terrorism and sadistic regimes...and those who support them as well. With complete freedom and safety , Christianity can take root in Iraq, though it may take a while.


In XC, Kizzy

 


 

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« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2005, 12:28:08 AM »

America has the rigged the elections of foreign nations in the past, what makes Iraq any different?
As for Blix, he supported the inspections in order to show Saddam to be compliant.
Please look up the quote from Colin Powell. He knew the intelligence to be false.
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« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2005, 01:00:03 AM »

Quote
America has the rigged the elections of foreign nations in the past, what makes Iraq any different?
As for Blix, he supported the inspections in order to show Saddam to be compliant.
Please look up the quote from Colin Powell. He knew the intelligence to be false.

We have rigged elections in the past? Huh I would like to know what ones you would be reffering to. I'm starting to worry about you, have you been reading the moonbat conspiracy theories over at the democraticundergroud? Hmmm, what was that qoute from the movie 6th Sense? Some people only see & hear what they want to... Roll Eyes

Quote
Nacho, right-o!  This whole Iraq thing has caught some interesting groups 'red handed'... and in the end the whole financing of Islamic terrorism with the 'food for oil' program'...I'm wondering if in fact someone suspected  this all along and had to find a way to smoke it out...  Not hard to see why  UN support for invading Iraq was tough when some were involved in the crooked schemes...busting that up is probably one of the more important benefits... WMD was one thing, but  the food for oil program was a real eye opener... and I think the more we dig the more will be learned about who is financing Islamic terrorist regimes....
In the end, protecting Christianity will depend on combating Islamic terrorism and sadistic regimes...and those who support them as well. With complete freedom and safety , Christianity can take root in Iraq, though it may take a while.

Yep.....ain't it one big coincidence that the people who were raking in billions from the food and oil scandal were the same ones against us? I guess they didn't want to give up all that cash and oil they got from thier buddy Sadam... :-";"xx
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« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2005, 01:05:15 AM »



We have rigged elections in the past? Huh


Ummm...yeah. 

Can you guys have a conversation without getting political?  Are you guys so immersed in politics, e.g. listening to talk radio and watching Fox, that you can't even have a conversation without dragging politics into it? 

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« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2005, 01:18:21 AM »

Quote
Ummm...yeah.

Can you guys have a conversation without getting political?  Are you guys so immersed in politics, e.g. listening to talk radio and watching Fox, that you can't even have a conversation without dragging politics into it?

Ummm.....yea.....we can try to do that for you. I'm only here to try to provide an alternative to opinions expressed by Mathew & I don't really see it as being that political by the way. I really don't watch too much TV or Fox for that matter. The only radio show I really listen to is Michael Savage who is really independent when it comes to politics. I think the only show I've been glued to these days is Desperate Housewives (hold your breathe, please don't laugh Cool. Thanks for stopping by though and expressing your opinion.
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« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2005, 01:23:16 AM »

Nacho, discussing politics is against the rules.  I can abide by it...why can't the rest of you? 

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« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2005, 01:54:35 AM »

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Nacho, discussing politics is against the rules.  I can abide by it...why can't the rest of you?

I guess in a strict technical sense that is true but everyone else here seems to be doing it and there are much worse offenders here that bring up parties, names and policies etc.....just look at some of the recent threads. I have refrained from bringing up politician names, party affiliation & policies that I personally disagree with politically speaking. I think it's ok to discuss some stories that of course will have some political overtones such as this Newsweek thread, if you notice I only speak and use descriptions in a very broad general way without trying to name names & poltical parties etc. to keep from being overtly political. I guess you would have to define what you mean as american politics. I guess I have a much looser understanding than you, I think everything except the whole republicans versus democrats is fine. Atleast my understanding of the political ban here was refraining from posting threads and debating anything that particulary pertained to democrats & republicans and thier party platform/policies. If your that sensitive to it, then maybe you should refrain from posting in such threads that from time to time may have some political overtone to it. 
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« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2005, 02:34:35 AM »

"I like President Bush personally. He is a sincere man. I respect his office. But, it is becoming painfully obvious that he has no plan to get our country out of the un-Constitutional, bloody, deadly, mess going on in Iraq. In fact, Mr. Bush and John Kerry both favor putting more troops into Iraq. In his recent press conference, Mr. Bush said our troops would be in Iraq 'as long as necessary,' 'for a while,' until Iraq is 'a free country.' He said Iraqis would provide their own security 'eventually.' I strongly disagree. As President, I would move immediately to withdraw all our troops from Iraq in a way that would provide for the safety of those Iraqis who worked with us during this illegal, wrong-headed war.

"I, like President Bush, hope that the Iraqi people, and all people, will be free from tyranny. But, unlike President Bush, I realize that, Constitutionally, as President, it would not be my job to use our military to spread 'freedom' everywhere in the world. Unlike President Bush, I, as President, would realize that I had been elected President of the United States, not President of the World.

"In 1821, John Quincy Adams said, of America:
'She goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.'
But, ignoring Adams' wise advice, President Bush, using our military, has gone abroad and destroyed the monster Saddam Hussein who posed no threat to the vital national security interests of our country. The result: We are bogged down in a bloody and expensive mess with no end in sight. If elected President, however, I would move immediately to end our involvement in Iraq. I am not one who believes that when you are in a hole you should not be in, you should keep digging."
Michael Peroutka, a real conservative
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« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2005, 02:44:10 AM »

I love how conservatives will quote a president from a completely different era as if what he said applies to today. Iraq which is only hours away today, was months away then.... weapons that weren't even imaginable then are in hands they shouldn't be in today. It is not the same world. I don't know if the Iraq war is good or bad. I do know that I should spend more time repenting of my sins and praying and that American political discussion is banned here - so lets talk about if the UK's role in Iraq is just, not America's.
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« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2005, 03:23:59 AM »

Iraq did not have weapons able to reach the United States.
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« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2005, 03:04:16 AM »

The Defense Dept. just released their "official" guidelines on how to handle a Koran... Roll Eyes

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/koran_sop.pdf

Apparently their are no similar instructions on how to handle a bible.
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« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2005, 05:06:49 AM »

Maybe this is just the closet conservative within me talking, but I definitely would not compare Gitmo to a Soviet goulag.
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« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2005, 12:33:23 PM »

Quote
Maybe this is just the closet conservative within me talking, but I definitely would not compare Gitmo to a Soviet gulag.

Let's see, Amnesty International says Gitmo is very similar to a Soviet style Gulag.
Now for the comparison:
Soviet gulags = almost 20 million murdered
Gitmo = 0 deaths to date so far

Yea, I really see the resemblance it's so striking!  Roll Eyes What will the arm chair theorist at Amnasty think of next. You see, there are people that live in reality and then there are the dreamers that live strictly by theory. Maybe in the cartoon world these people live in there might be a hint of truth to what they are saying but in the real world their actions would wind up getting many of us killed once the islamo-fascist are released and they go on their next rampage of destruction.

By the way I find the DOD guide on how to handle a Koran quite fascinating. Maybe they should also give it to the islamist at Gitmo who have on occasion ripped pages out of it and thrown it around themselves. Also might want to give it to the insurgents in Iraq who have blown up mosque in Iraq desecrating the korans that are inside. They need this vital information also..... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2005, 01:14:35 PM »

I wouldn't be surprised if there have been a few acciental deaths due to torture at Gitmo.
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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2005, 01:27:35 PM »

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if there have been a few acciental deaths due to torture at Gitmo.

Actually, to date there have been no deaths. I wouldn't really call it real torture also. If you want to see real torture take a look at how China treats it's dissidents. The islamist have it really easy getting three warn meals a day and being allowed to partake in daily religious observance. Some of them might even have a higher standard of living coming from some of the mud - huts and caves they were hiding in. Atleast now they get to eat and take showers. Maybe to make them a little more peaceful when can stock all prison cells with Gideon Bible's like they do at hotel chains.
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2005, 03:27:47 PM »

There have been deaths of detainees in Iraq.
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« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2005, 03:54:51 PM »

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There have been deaths of detainees in Iraq.

I believe you are correct sir, but they died from hanging themselves from what I have heard. It's a myth that it's just the U.S. that has had problems with abuse of detainees. It's something that has happened in every country during times of war. Not everyone in our military are going to act accordingly to the rule book, you will always have that 10% that will do things the wrong way.   
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« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2005, 02:34:50 PM »

Some of the pictures coming out of Abu Ghraib were of men tortured to the point of death.
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« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2013, 12:05:40 AM »

Kolya wrote:
But, we as people of The Way are not promised peace in this world, until the 'Kingdom without end' is established by our Lord after the Judgement.
Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

The strongest use I found suggesting that this could be a name for Christians is:

Acts 24:14:
ὁμολογῶ δὲ τοῦτό σοι, ὅτι κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν ἣν λέγουσιν αἵρεσιν οὕτω λατρεύω τῷ πατρῴῳ Θεῷ, πιστεύων πᾶσι τοῖς κατὰ τὸν νόμον καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς προφήταις γεγραμμένοις,
Some protestant translations translate this verse as if "The Way" is a name (eg. capitalizing it), while others don't necessarily give it that meaning in my view:
http://bible.cc/acts/24-14.htm

The Russian Synodal translation makes the verse out to mean:
I admit to you, that by the teaching, which they call a heresy, I really serve God

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm

The New King James Version, which the Orthodox Study Bible is based on, does capitalize "The Way" in each of the verses above, while the normal King James Version does not.
(I don't have the OSB with me to check how it puts the phrase).
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« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2013, 12:58:24 AM »

Kolya wrote:
But, we as people of The Way are not promised peace in this world, until the 'Kingdom without end' is established by our Lord after the Judgement.
Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

The strongest use I found suggesting that this could be a name for Christians is:

Acts 24:14:
ὁμολογῶ δὲ τοῦτό σοι, ὅτι κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν ἣν λέγουσιν αἵρεσιν οὕτω λατρεύω τῷ πατρῴῳ Θεῷ, πιστεύων πᾶσι τοῖς κατὰ τὸν νόμον καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς προφήταις γεγραμμένοις,
Some protestant translations translate this verse as if "The Way" is a name (eg. capitalizing it), while others don't necessarily give it that meaning in my view:
http://bible.cc/acts/24-14.htm

The Russian Synodal translation makes the verse out to mean:
I admit to you, that by the teaching, which they call a heresy, I really serve God

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm

The New King James Version, which the Orthodox Study Bible is based on, does capitalize "The Way" in each of the verses above, while the normal King James Version does not.
(I don't have the OSB with me to check how it puts the phrase).

I am sorry, but Kolya has not posted in around 7 years. I don't think he/she will ever see this Wink
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« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2013, 10:31:21 AM »

Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm
Kolya has not posted in around 7 years. I don't think he/she will ever see this
Gunarr,

It's an open request for anyone. What do you think?
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« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2013, 12:29:52 PM »

Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm
Kolya has not posted in around 7 years. I don't think he/she will ever see this
Gunarr,

It's an open request for anyone. What do you think?

think about what?

all I can think is this is 7 years old thread!
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« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2013, 03:32:38 PM »

Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm
think about what?
Dear Gunarr,

I would like to hear what people think about whether it's true that the Christians in the first century were called People of the Way, or if they gave Christianity the name of The Way.
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« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2013, 01:00:26 AM »

Can anyone please tell me if it is true that first century Christians were called "People of the Way"? I am doubtful about this.

One Protestant website gives these verses as examples, but I think that perhaps the verses need not be interpreted as if "People of the Way" was a title for Christianity.
Quote
a. Saul of Tarsus persecuted those of the Way - Ac 9:2; 22:4
   b. Others spoke evil of the Way - Ac 19:9
   c. At Ephesus there was a riot about the Way - Ac 19:23
   d. Paul confessed to worship God according to the Way - Ac 24:14
   e. Felix the governor gained accurate knowledge about the Way - Ac
      24:22
http://executableoutlines.com/text/ac9_2.htm
think about what?
Dear Gunarr,

I would like to hear what people think about whether it's true that the Christians in the first century were called People of the Way, or if they gave Christianity the name of The Way.

ohhhh

well i will form an opinion at some point... but for now i sleep
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« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2013, 05:35:49 PM »

I dunno. Same reason we act like it was so atrocious when we were persecuted and martyred by the Roman Empire, but don't feel bad at all for the pagans when we turned and did the same to them once we came to power.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2013, 06:03:21 PM »

What this thread is:

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rakovsky
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WWW
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2013, 12:55:36 AM »

What this thread is:

Hey bro, I'm a week behind in answering my emails. I am on a listserv that gets 15 messages per day.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:06:04 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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