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Offline Inquirer

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When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« on: October 13, 2014, 04:19:31 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 04:28:24 PM »
May God be with you.

I can very much sympathize with your struggle. My wife is Methodist and very against Orthodoxy. The most important thing I can say is to not try to force anything. I obviously don't know your wife, but if she does not have a strong opinion on her faith, would she be opposed to just attending an Orthodox Church?  If she were to get accustomed to it, she may develop different opinions on fasting and such.  Also, while the Church gives us a general fasting rule, that is oftentimes highly tailored to the individual by the priest. I doubt that the priest would tell you or your wife to jump in doing full fasting right off the bat. Some people take a year or two to get used to the fasts. Some take years to hold to the fasting rules, others never.
God bless!

Offline Agabus

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 04:37:18 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Lots of issues here, more than I can probably take on charitably.

But here's some easy enough advice: Pray for her. And for Pete's sake don't go to her and say, "I'm praying for you because we're not on the same page."

Until you get to a place where you aren't thinking of her as an obstacle, you're never going to get anywhere.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 10:42:58 PM »
Prayer and patience.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Maria

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 11:17:08 PM »
Know that I am praying for you and for your wife.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
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Offline Inquirer

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 07:07:44 PM »
May God be with you.

I can very much sympathize with your struggle. My wife is Methodist and very against Orthodoxy. The most important thing I can say is to not try to force anything. I obviously don't know your wife, but if she does not have a strong opinion on her faith, would she be opposed to just attending an Orthodox Church?  If she were to get accustomed to it, she may develop different opinions on fasting and such.  Also, while the Church gives us a general fasting rule, that is oftentimes highly tailored to the individual by the priest. I doubt that the priest would tell you or your wife to jump in doing full fasting right off the bat. Some people take a year or two to get used to the fasts. Some take years to hold to the fasting rules, others never.

Right now we go to a Byzantine-rite Catholic Church. She is happy about it (well, happier than a Novus Ordo Mass).
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline liefern

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 07:17:00 PM »
Idea: When you buy a house, use the parish finder!

http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 07:58:52 PM »
May God be with you.

I can very much sympathize with your struggle. My wife is Methodist and very against Orthodoxy. The most important thing I can say is to not try to force anything. I obviously don't know your wife, but if she does not have a strong opinion on her faith, would she be opposed to just attending an Orthodox Church?  If she were to get accustomed to it, she may develop different opinions on fasting and such.  Also, while the Church gives us a general fasting rule, that is oftentimes highly tailored to the individual by the priest. I doubt that the priest would tell you or your wife to jump in doing full fasting right off the bat. Some people take a year or two to get used to the fasts. Some take years to hold to the fasting rules, others never.

Right now we go to a Byzantine-rite Catholic Church. She is happy about it (well, happier than a Novus Ordo Mass).
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 09:14:58 PM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 09:19:14 PM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 09:36:37 PM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.

Who knew that a hundred years later we'd be kissing icons?   :P

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 12:18:57 AM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.

Who knew that a hundred years later we'd be kissing icons?   :P
It's all that Constantine guys fault. True religion is this, to raise your hands and clap above your head while singing I Could Sing of Your Love Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...
God bless!

Offline hecma925

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 12:31:38 AM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.

Who knew that a hundred years later we'd be kissing icons?   :P
It's all that Constantine guys fault. True religion is this, to raise your hands and clap above your head while singing I Could Sing of Your Love Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...

Just stop, I'm having flashbacks. :P
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Offline Georgii

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 05:53:04 AM »
True religion is this, to raise your hands and clap above your head while singing I Could Sing of Your Love Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...

Somebody say A-men!

... uh ... what, it isn't? ::)
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Offline Inquirer

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 03:03:44 PM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.

Who knew that a hundred years later we'd be kissing icons?   :P
It's all that Constantine guys fault. True religion is this, to raise your hands and clap above your head while singing I Could Sing of Your Love Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...

http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/2014/08/25/the-brown-note-proven-true-seconds-after-gather-us-in-begins/
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 03:49:42 PM »
Oh, well that is good. Orthodoxy wouldn't seem like a strange bizarre new thing then. That has been the part my wife isn't able to deal with. She is used to happy-clappy type churches.

See, I think the "happy-clappy type churches" are "strange bizarre new things".  :P

Nah, that dates back to 150 A.D.

Who knew that a hundred years later we'd be kissing icons?   :P
It's all that Constantine guys fault. True religion is this, to raise your hands and clap above your head while singing I Could Sing of Your Love Forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...

Just stop, I'm having flashbacks. :P

I am too, and oddly enough, it's to my days as a RC attending the Novus Ordo. I never sang along to such banal hymns.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 03:49:56 PM by kelly »
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Offline Clemente

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 04:27:17 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.
My wife is Roman Catholic and I made the jump alone. Of course I would rather that she joined me in the Church. But I am immensely grateful to have entered, even alone, and I think I am a better, more graceful husband because of Orthodoxy.

Fasting is inconvenient for families such as ours, but it is hugely palliative.

Offline NMHS

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2014, 08:05:42 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.
My wife is Roman Catholic and I made the jump alone. Of course I would rather that she joined me in the Church. But I am immensely grateful to have entered, even alone, and I think I am a better, more graceful husband because of Orthodoxy.

Fasting is inconvenient for families such as ours, but it is hugely palliative.

Same here!  Wife is RC and I converted on my own.  Be thankful your Church is 20 minutes away as mine is 2 hours away.   Prayer and patience.  My wife won't convert and I see no "light at the end of the tunnel" as they say.  Probably has more to do with her rough childhood and hispanic culture. 

My children are RC and I wish they were Orthodox but that's another tough touchy subject.  Anyhow, she has become very supportive of this now, comes to Church with me, even bakes for coffee hour.  But, it's taken a few years to get here and I wish I would've taken the advice of "prayer & patience".


Offline scamandrius

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2014, 10:11:53 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.

Inquirer,

I'm going to give the same advice I have given to others in your particular situation:  don't convert.  For the sake of your wife, don't do it.  I have seen, firsthand, of the exact same situation at my parish.  The husband converted to Orthodoxy. The wife didn't.  THey were attending a Melkite Church together but the husband decided that he had to be Orthodox so he went through with it.  This particular person, after his conversion, eventually left our parish to go to a more "orthodox" parish in his opinion, then jumped to the Western Rite Orthodox, then, having his fill of fighting with his wife, went back to going to the Melkite Church with her.  She never had any desire to convert to Orthodoxy and, based on what I observed from her in social situations, she clearly hated what her husband was doing.  I haven't seen or talked to him since.  That whole situation went on for about two years.

Of course, this is only one situation.  I myself am married to a non-Orthodox and though we are raising our son in the Orthodox faith and she comes to church with me.  Before I was married, a friend of mine, who is a divorce attorney, talked with me that after infidelity and financial problems, the single biggest reason for divorce in this country is due to religious differences, inter-Christian and inter-faith both.  I'm not expecting her to convert.  She knows and I have told her on no uncertain terms that I will love her the same regardless of her religious proclivities. 

For the sake of your marriage, I advise you not to go through with your intentions though I certainly can sympathize with your lack of trust in the current Roman pontiff and his assaults on the Tridentine Mass and the refusal of the bishops to really stand up for the use of the Extraordinary Rite.  But, remember, too, Popes come and go.  Who knows what the future will hold.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Inquirer

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 12:37:45 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.

Inquirer,

I'm going to give the same advice I have given to others in your particular situation:  don't convert.  For the sake of your wife, don't do it.  I have seen, firsthand, of the exact same situation at my parish.  The husband converted to Orthodoxy. The wife didn't.  THey were attending a Melkite Church together but the husband decided that he had to be Orthodox so he went through with it.  This particular person, after his conversion, eventually left our parish to go to a more "orthodox" parish in his opinion, then jumped to the Western Rite Orthodox, then, having his fill of fighting with his wife, went back to going to the Melkite Church with her.  She never had any desire to convert to Orthodoxy and, based on what I observed from her in social situations, she clearly hated what her husband was doing.  I haven't seen or talked to him since.  That whole situation went on for about two years.

Of course, this is only one situation.  I myself am married to a non-Orthodox and though we are raising our son in the Orthodox faith and she comes to church with me.  Before I was married, a friend of mine, who is a divorce attorney, talked with me that after infidelity and financial problems, the single biggest reason for divorce in this country is due to religious differences, inter-Christian and inter-faith both.  I'm not expecting her to convert.  She knows and I have told her on no uncertain terms that I will love her the same regardless of her religious proclivities. 

For the sake of your marriage, I advise you not to go through with your intentions though I certainly can sympathize with your lack of trust in the current Roman pontiff and his assaults on the Tridentine Mass and the refusal of the bishops to really stand up for the use of the Extraordinary Rite.  But, remember, too, Popes come and go.  Who knows what the future will hold.

Wow! Not expecting that reply, honestly. Thank you for your frank advice.
"[The Sacred Congregation of Rites'] decisions are made by a crowd of dirty little Monsignori at Rome in utter ignorance of the meaning or reason of anything. To the historian their decisions are simply disgusting nonsense, that people of my kind want simply to ignore." -- Fr. Adrian Fortescue

Offline Tom

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 05:36:14 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other.


As a convert to Orthodoxy from the Roman Catholic Church there is one thing I feel you should consider.  I had to face this when I converted.  Was I leaving Roman Catholicism because I didn't like it, or was I joining Orthodoxy because I fell in love with it?   For myself I had to make sure that I was running to Orthodoxy and not away from something else.  While the Bride of Christ is perfect, local churches can and are full of all the troubles of any human institution. 

Praying for your discernment.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 05:59:06 PM »
Hello all, I am a Roman Catholic strongly considering converting to Orthodoxy on account of a loss of faith in the College of Bishops. I am simply sick and tired of reading in the news over and over again about Bishops undermining Jesus' teachings on sexuality, and punishing faithful Catholics for wanting to worship in the Tridentine rites. I am also baffled at the current tendency for Popes to continuously canonize each other. However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby. Basically her faith is lukewarm.

She has two concerns about Orthodoxy. (1) We live in a rural area. Currently there's a church about 20 minutes away, but she believes that if we buy a house (likely in a different area), there might not be an Orthodox church nearby--and we'll have to re-convert back to Catholicism. I have proposed that we don't move anywhere where there's no Orthodox churches, but she says that it's much more important that we live in a safe area with good schools. (2) She dislikes fasting and think it's pointless. I've explained to her the theological reason for it, but she still says she only refrains from meat on Lenten Fridays because I do so, and she would not be amenable to refraining from oil, fish, etc. on any other days.

Please pray for us and offer any advice you can.

Thank you.

Inquirer,

I'm going to give the same advice I have given to others in your particular situation:  don't convert.  For the sake of your wife, don't do it.  I have seen, firsthand, of the exact same situation at my parish.  The husband converted to Orthodoxy. The wife didn't.  THey were attending a Melkite Church together but the husband decided that he had to be Orthodox so he went through with it.  This particular person, after his conversion, eventually left our parish to go to a more "orthodox" parish in his opinion, then jumped to the Western Rite Orthodox, then, having his fill of fighting with his wife, went back to going to the Melkite Church with her.  She never had any desire to convert to Orthodoxy and, based on what I observed from her in social situations, she clearly hated what her husband was doing.  I haven't seen or talked to him since.  That whole situation went on for about two years.

Of course, this is only one situation.  I myself am married to a non-Orthodox and though we are raising our son in the Orthodox faith and she comes to church with me.  Before I was married, a friend of mine, who is a divorce attorney, talked with me that after infidelity and financial problems, the single biggest reason for divorce in this country is due to religious differences, inter-Christian and inter-faith both.  I'm not expecting her to convert.  She knows and I have told her on no uncertain terms that I will love her the same regardless of her religious proclivities. 

For the sake of your marriage, I advise you not to go through with your intentions though I certainly can sympathize with your lack of trust in the current Roman pontiff and his assaults on the Tridentine Mass and the refusal of the bishops to really stand up for the use of the Extraordinary Rite.  But, remember, too, Popes come and go.  Who knows what the future will hold.

Wow! Not expecting that reply, honestly. Thank you for your frank advice.

Sure thing.  Like I said, I've seen this sort of thing happen enough times that for perspective married converts, they really need to make an informed decision about how converting to Orthodoxy can affect their marriage.  This is especially imperative if only one of the couple wants to do so.  I know of several people who have stayed where they are for the sake of their marriage and kids.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 08:21:02 PM »
I come from a slightly different perspective than scamandrius. I am a (perpetual) catechumen due to my wife's distain for Orthodoxy. I have been attending weekly for 3 years now and I also attend church with my wife at her church before going to DL.  It can be done, but I agree with scamandrius that it is by far the most difficult issue we have had to deal with in our marriage.  I had people (including my priest) tell me that if it is causing problems in my marriage, I need to focus on my marriage rather than converting.  I did that and we are in a bit of a stalemate now.  My wife still does not want me to be chrismated, but she has accepted that I attend and am involved in the church. I pray that she will give me her blessing to allow me to join the Orthodox Church, but if she doesn't, I will continue on my current path.  I can't leave Orthodoxy and return to my previous religious traditions; they are nothing but dry bones and dust for me.  I feel alive in my faith for the first time and I can't let it go.

I say that to say this.  I don't really know what to advise you to do. Every person and every relationship is different and what works for one person isn't going to work for another.  One of my friends basically just up and told his wife that they are going to become Orthodox. She was pulled kicking and screaming into the Church and now she absolutely loves it.  I couldn't in a million years ever see that working for me, but it somehow worked for them.  If you know any Orthodox people or priests that you trust and know your situation, I would discuss it with them.  I spend quite a bit of time talking with my priest and trying to work things out and I will be forever grateful for his counsel and guidance.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 10:24:39 PM »
However my wife does not want to convert. She insists she believes in the Apostolic faith, but she dislikes praying with me and our child, and also finds it annoying that I insist on reading the Bible to our baby.

I agree with the advice on taking your time, leading by example, and not forcing it down her throat. I do think it is important to try pray with her though. If you sense she is resistant to Orthodoxy I wouldn't do any exclusively Orthodox prayers, but something that is in common between RCs and Orthodox, perhaps reading the Psalms, or maybe even as simple as the Lord's Prayer on regular basis before bed. You can always pray in more detail on your own.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 07:52:24 PM »
Consider yourself lucky because then you have less of a burden placed on you to practice your faith. An atheist woman would be the ideal, but the Church won't allow that.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 08:22:43 PM »
Huh?
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 08:31:41 PM »
Oh look!  JamesR is back!  

hilarity will ensue.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 08:31:56 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 09:22:25 PM »
Oh look!  JamesR is back!  

hilarity will ensue.

He was gone?
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 10:01:55 PM »
Oh look!  JamesR is back!  

hilarity will ensue.

He was gone?
Every moment that he is not posting is a moment of lost opportunity.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2014, 12:26:42 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2014, 01:20:53 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2014, 01:25:26 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

I thought it was on account of the angels. 
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2014, 01:57:14 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

You're conflating two Epistles. 
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2014, 02:29:31 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.

What does one have to do with the other? 

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2014, 02:39:17 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.

What does one have to do with the other? 

Plenty. Women teaching men, and all that.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2014, 09:57:52 AM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

I thought it was on account of the angels. 

Shhh, don't tell him! ;)
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2014, 10:03:09 AM »
She does submit to me, a list of the chores I need to do before bed.  :'(
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2014, 01:29:43 PM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.

What does one have to do with the other? 

Plenty. Women teaching men, and all that.

I guess every husband/man is a king and an emperor and a bishop now? 

This is not how one interprets Scripture. 

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2014, 02:16:45 PM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.

Were these females the wife?
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2014, 03:57:20 PM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

Tell that to many a female Orthodox saint who advised kings and bishops, or who stood up to kings and emperors to proclaim the true faith.

They violated the Bible. Just because the Church does something for a long time doesn't mean it overrules Scriptures.

Not saying I agree with this, but Yeshua could certainly use it as a retort.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2014, 04:31:32 PM »
I really don't think that the idea "no woman can ever talk to a man about anything" is quite what St. Paul had in mind.

The Church still went ahead and made many women martyrs saints; many became martyrs precisely because they spoke publicly about their faith.

St. Anna was a prophetess. Says that in the Bible. How can one prophesy unless one speaks? There is such a thing as sign language, but with all respect, I don't think that's what they meant in her case.

Fr. Thomas Hopko says that St. Paul's reference to a woman "remain(ing) silent in the churches" meant that a prophetess was not supposed to speak until the priest was finished with his sermon; interrupting him was rude and disruptive. Also, no one in church, man or woman, is supposed to be speaking unless it is time to pray, sing, or if they are priest or deacon, to say something that is part of the liturgy. If it isn't your turn, then hush. When Father is giving the sermon, we listen. It's okay to laugh at his jokes. When we're done and walk out, you can talk all you want.

"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2014, 05:03:46 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2014, 05:57:49 PM »
A wife should submit to her husband and take his spiritual guidance.   This is why a woman wears a headship veil or covering when she prays.

I thought it was on account of the angels.  

Shhh, don't tell him! ;)

(I'll take the bait, even though the words "because of the angels" has been under scrutiny before)

This is not in context or the correct understanding of 1 Corinthians 11.
I think both of you need to re-read 1 Corinthians 11.  Seriously.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause (^^^^^look up^^^^^^) ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Paul is speaking of the angels here because they are in an order of hierarchy and submission to God.  Paul establishes this hierarchy with the angels.

Paul, draws us a picture creating an image of "headship," invoking angelic hierarchy and their submission for the sake of analogy so that we can see the full picture of the divine order.   In the case of woman, she is in the divine order to be in the submission of men.  

In this scripture in particular, I can't draw if it's "any woman submits to any man".  If I draw conclusively from the other biblical passages which speak of "wives", along with the consideration of Hebrew culture and Jewish roots, I can only conclude that Paul is referencing wives and daughters under their Father's authority.

The "power" on her head, is the power that man has (in particular her husband - Numbers 30:1-15) over her.  Even to the point of being able to erase any oaths that she has made and the daughters of his home.  Just has God has the power over the angels in this hierarchy.

It's not popular in our American culture at all to think this way.

The veil is about headship.   A wife prays covered because she is under her husband.  
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 06:00:28 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2014, 06:04:37 PM »
I really don't think that the idea "no woman can ever talk to a man about anything" is quite what St. Paul had in mind.

The Church still went ahead and made many women martyrs saints; many became martyrs precisely because they spoke publicly about their faith.

St. Anna was a prophetess. Says that in the Bible. How can one prophesy unless one speaks? There is such a thing as sign language, but with all respect, I don't think that's what they meant in her case.

Fr. Thomas Hopko says that St. Paul's reference to a woman "remain(ing) silent in the churches" meant that a prophetess was not supposed to speak until the priest was finished with his sermon; interrupting him was rude and disruptive. Also, no one in church, man or woman, is supposed to be speaking unless it is time to pray, sing, or if they are priest or deacon, to say something that is part of the liturgy. If it isn't your turn, then hush. When Father is giving the sermon, we listen. It's okay to laugh at his jokes. When we're done and walk out, you can talk all you want.

"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

I think Paul meant exactly what he said.   

There is nothing wrong with a woman praying or giving prophecy.  As far as I can discern from the scriptures, if she is married or under her father's home, she is to be covered.   It shows the headship order.  Whether or not this applies to unmarried women on their own is another story, as women like this often didn't exist in Paul's time (and were often prostitutes).

In Hebrew culture, women were either married or under their Father's authority. 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2014, 06:09:54 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2014, 06:14:08 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2014, 06:31:12 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God. If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.

I understand why you'd put that.  MEN must be sure to love their wives as themselves.  This is so important to this order.  I must emphasize this as well (as it is part of the scriptures!!!!).

If they do this (leaving all complexities of women/men aside especially in our modern culture), it should form a great bond where the man deeply loves his wife and treats her well (and healthy), and the wife loves and fully relies on her husband's leadership.

To me this is just the perfect way to be.  I know it's more complex, but that's the synopsis.

You are right though, this opens a doorway into very unhealthy things and emotionally damaging for the woman.   In that case I believe the man would be guilty of a very deep sin knowing his position and authority.  This situations are so sad and awful.  There's not always answers.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 06:31:53 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2014, 07:21:07 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

There is nothing more honorable and desirable than a woman who will submit. A submissive woman is truly something to be proud of. A good submissive woman obeys her husband and accepts his authority, has a meal on the table by dinner time, and a sexy outfit picked out for loving time.

Of course, that's not to say all women HAVE to be like this; I fully support the right of women to choose the type of life they want to live, so I guess I'm a feminist in that regard. But I prefer a woman who chooses to submit.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2014, 07:42:03 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

There is nothing more honorable and desirable than a woman who will submit. A submissive woman is truly something to be proud of. A good submissive woman obeys her husband and accepts his authority, has a meal on the table by dinner time, and a sexy outfit picked out for loving time.

Of course, that's not to say all women HAVE to be like this; I fully support the right of women to choose the type of life they want to live, so I guess I'm a feminist in that regard. But I prefer a woman who chooses to submit.

Heh, James brother you are too much. :)

Of course its submission past that.  It deals in decision making, her going along with her husband, and her accepting some things her husband is convicted on that she may struggle with...  Also loving the way God assigned authority over her.   Her accepting how her husband loves her.

Help meet stuff.

The other stuff you mentioned to each their own.   But physical love would be a perfect epiphany of the mutual love between the husband and wife.

I would agree that a woman should have a say so in how she wants to live.  In context of old Judaism and the arranged marriages, I'm absolutely not comfortable with...  Biblical courtship with the daughter's father's permission sounds better.   Perfect situations of course vary and there are lots of variables in life.... The biblical headship I would see as a perfect thing.
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Offline biro

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2014, 08:01:30 PM »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2014, 01:18:15 AM »
I would agree that a woman should have a say so in how she wants to live.  In context of old Judaism and the arranged marriages, I'm absolutely not comfortable with...  Biblical courtship with the daughter's father's permission sounds better.   Perfect situations of course vary and there are lots of variables in life.... The biblical headship I would see as a perfect thing.

I believe in biblical courtship.   Faith based courtship with the intent on finding a spouse.  So yes, I think in the way I see courtship dating more than one would be bad.

Which one?  Working for 14 years to get the right girl?  The courtship of Dinah in Schechem?  David and Batsheba post-Uriah?  Maybe Hosea and Gomer's courtship is a good example.

You say you believe in "biblical courtship".  What are some examples?
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Offline biro

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2014, 03:42:28 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_courtship

Interesting. Very... interesting.  :-X
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2014, 03:59:58 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.

I think I know what you're saying and I agree with you, but I think we need to be careful with such sweeping generalisations, especially when they are made even after the qualification that the pattern for spousal relationships is that of Christ and the Church.  Otherwise, we end up saying that this:



is the Good-For-Nothing Deadbeat Husband of the Battered Church which is attached to him in an emotionally unhealthy way.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2014, 04:23:59 PM »
To summarize how we've gotten to this point, this thread has been about my wife's less faith compared to mine, and yeshuaisiam posted that she should do what I tell her because the Bible says so.

Didn't particularly think that would be a strong argument and I haven't yet been proven wrong.
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2014, 04:49:13 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.

In most cases, anything is better than divorce. Marriage isn't just about the spouses but the children, and seeing your parents separate and your entire family being torn asunder is traumatizing. Personally, if it were up to me, I'd outlaw divorce except in the most extreme of circumstances such as physical abuse. And if people don't like it, then they should probably stop getting married and taking out their divorce angst on gay people for wanting to marry.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2014, 09:45:35 PM »
I thank God for allowing me to be married to an Orthodox wife for seventeen years before converting; now with my convert zeal I've been driving her mad with theological questions, and she said I should go the the local monastery for three days or so. ::)
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2014, 09:52:33 PM »
To summarize how we've gotten to this point, this thread has been about my wife's less faith compared to mine, and yeshuaisiam posted that she should do what I tell her because the Bible says so.

Didn't particularly think that would be a strong argument and I haven't yet been proven wrong.

I'm sorry if you haven't got the answer you've been asking for here, but 1 Corinthians 7:14 comes to mind.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2014, 01:00:27 AM »
To summarize how we've gotten to this point, this thread has been about my wife's less faith compared to mine, and yeshuaisiam posted that she should do what I tell her because the Bible says so.

Didn't particularly think that would be a strong argument and I haven't yet been proven wrong.

Okay, sorry I may be misunderstanding your op.

You wife believes in apostolic faith and is having trouble with conversion, or is it like a faith crisis in general?  I see the term lukewarm but not too sure what you meant whether it applies to the "flavor"(faith) or just faith in general.

I was answering that she had faith in apostolic Christianity, but was having trouble between "churches" so to say. 
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2014, 04:34:09 AM »
I was answering that she had faith in apostolic Christianity, but was having trouble between "churches" so to say.

And contrary to what most people here will say to you, I think that's understandable.

I too think that apostolic Christianity is obviously the proper Christianity as most of its practices and doctrines can be attested to via the early patristics, Fathers, history, and Bible.

However, I sometimes think that while the Orthodox Church is undoubtedly the *closest* thing to this, that it too has made some changes and adopted some things that aren't entirely in line with the testimony of apostolic Christianity. In particular, divorce is a huge issue for me. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church (excluding that annulment crap) has maintained a more apostolic, biblical approach to divorce than the Orthodox Church has. That's not my only problem, but it's one of the main ones. I feel like the Church has disregarded the Bible in many respects and can't justify itself apart from "we're the Church; we're the boss. The Bible is subject to us."

That said though, I don't think I could ever get myself to apostatize from the Church. Even if I disagree with it and consider it erroneous, I believe that issues need to be resolved from within opposed to resorting to schism, and that Christ will eventually lead us back into the truth.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2014, 03:18:58 PM »
What the Church says about divorce:
1. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
2. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
3. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
4. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
5. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
6. Well, you decided to have a divorce. We will provide loving counsel and help you through this time. We understand that you are human and with repentance and a mind towards your frailties, we will permit you to marry again once you have emotionally healed.

What people hear:
1. You want a divorce?  Go hog wild with it and get married again! We will give you three of those before we call it quits on you.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2014, 08:54:43 PM »
I was answering that she had faith in apostolic Christianity, but was having trouble between "churches" so to say.

And contrary to what most people here will say to you, I think that's understandable.

I too think that apostolic Christianity is obviously the proper Christianity as most of its practices and doctrines can be attested to via the early patristics, Fathers, history, and Bible.

However, I sometimes think that while the Orthodox Church is undoubtedly the *closest* thing to this, that it too has made some changes and adopted some things that aren't entirely in line with the testimony of apostolic Christianity. In particular, divorce is a huge issue for me. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church (excluding that annulment crap) has maintained a more apostolic, biblical approach to divorce than the Orthodox Church has. That's not my only problem, but it's one of the main ones. I feel like the Church has disregarded the Bible in many respects and can't justify itself apart from "we're the Church; we're the boss. The Bible is subject to us."

That said though, I don't think I could ever get myself to apostatize from the Church. Even if I disagree with it and consider it erroneous, I believe that issues need to be resolved from within opposed to resorting to schism, and that Christ will eventually lead us back into the truth.
What the Church says about divorce:
1. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
2. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
3. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
4. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
5. Don't do it, it can be repaired.
6. Well, you decided to have a divorce. We will provide loving counsel and help you through this time. We understand that you are human and with repentance and a mind towards your frailties, we will permit you to marry again once you have emotionally healed.

What people hear:
1. You want a divorce?  Go hog wild with it and get married again! We will give you three of those before we call it quits on you.

I agree with James' statement, but with agreement on how TheTrisagion wrote of EO beliefs on divorce/remarriage..

The problem is that re-marriage after divorce is adultery.  Spoken out of the very mouth of God.  I agree with what you said on numbers 1-5.  That's how the church does it.  The problem is they will remarry people into adultery.  We can have all the church authority we want.... There is no authority over the words of God.

At least, it's the way I see it.... 

I know though that divorce is incredibly low in the EO church compared to the "world".  So this is a good thing.   14% EO  54% World (world not including shack ups).   So it's a good figure that shows good fruit.   Divorce is a very tragic thing, but re-marriage I have to pass on that facet of the church... I just can't argue with Jesus Christ.

For the OP, if you wife is a believer and will adhere to the scriptures, do some research on "headship veil".   It is very important for your wife to be submissive to you by taking your lead in her faith.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2014, 09:23:54 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2014, 09:52:06 PM »
Divorce is a very tragic thing, but re-marriage I have to pass on that facet of the church... I just can't argue with Jesus Christ.

This

Jesus Christ Himself made it clear that remarriage except on the grounds of sexual immorality is adultery. I don't see any getting around it or wiggle room--Christ has spoken. And while I acknowledge the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth, I also realize that the Christ is the higher authority who the Church answers to. Simply put, there is no arguing with Jesus Christ. I don't care how many Fathers or years of Church history a person may bring up to try to justify it. It doesn't compare to Christ's own words. And in fact, most of the Fathers did take Christ's words at face value and prohibit remarriage except in the case of divorce or widowhood--such as St. Jerome who immediately comes to mind. And given the context of Christ's words as He was speaking publicly to a crowd of extraordinarily legalistic Pharisees, I doubt that there is any hidden allegorical meaning. I think in this case, He was speaking literally.

It's not just that the Church acknowledges that the great sin of a divorce has occurred, but that it remarries people and thus not only defiles a Sacrament, but sanctions sin. I know you'll bring up all that ekonomia compassion stuff, but that doesn't change Christ's own words anymore than it does the Bible's words on homosexuality. Ekonomia and compassion cannot be used to sanction sin. In fact, if love is leading you to make an exception and sanction sin, then I would say that's a false love because true love wouldn't want to lead that person further into sin.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 09:52:24 PM by JamesR »

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2014, 09:55:35 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.

In most cases, anything is better than divorce. Marriage isn't just about the spouses but the children, and seeing your parents separate and your entire family being torn asunder is traumatizing. Personally, if it were up to me, I'd outlaw divorce except in the most extreme of circumstances such as physical abuse. And if people don't like it, then they should probably stop getting married and taking out their divorce angst on gay people for wanting to marry.

I don't know about "most cases", since I'm not privy to what happens in most marriages, so I won't attempt to quantify relating to that. Divorce is definitely an awful, tragic thing. But I believe, to borrow a saying from Dr. Phil of all people, "Better to come from a broken home than to live in one." My own parents' divorce was hard to get through, for sure. It was a tragedy that our family was was being torn apart. But it was not harder, not worse in the long run than watching a toxic, irreparably broken relationship play out in front of our eyes (my siblings' and mine) day in and day out. Sometimes people divorce for frivolous reasons, sometimes they don't want to put in work on their relationship. Sometimes though, it is better for everyone involved to acknowledge that an unhealthy relationship does real damage to the parties involved, and the kids who witness it.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2014, 09:57:05 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV

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Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2014, 09:58:27 PM »
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2014, 10:00:44 PM »
"For in Jesus Christ there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." St. Paul said that, too.

Although he also tolerated slavery, a distinction between rulers and the ruled, and told wives to submit to their husbands. While in Christ there may be no difference, St. Paul certainly recognized an earthly difference that that was at play. While it may not have been ontological like in paganism, it did exist.

Interestingly if we look at the fruits of this order, or even in the context of this thread, the headship and submissive wife can be an absolutely perfect order designed by God.  If a wife is fully submitted to her husband as the church is in submission to Christ, (and of course the husband loving his wife as himself), I bet the divorce rate amongst Christians would be absolutely nill.

Maybe, but not for any emotionally healthy reasons.

In most cases, anything is better than divorce. Marriage isn't just about the spouses but the children, and seeing your parents separate and your entire family being torn asunder is traumatizing. Personally, if it were up to me, I'd outlaw divorce except in the most extreme of circumstances such as physical abuse. And if people don't like it, then they should probably stop getting married and taking out their divorce angst on gay people for wanting to marry.

I don't know about "most cases", since I'm not privy to what happens in most marriages, so I won't attempt to quantify relating to that. Divorce is definitely an awful, tragic thing. But I believe, to borrow a saying from Dr. Phil of all people, "Better to come from a broken home than to live in one." My own parents' divorce was hard to get through, for sure. It was a tragedy that our family was was being torn apart. But it was not harder, not worse in the long run than watching a toxic, irreparably broken relationship play out in front of our eyes (my siblings' and mine) day in and day out. Sometimes people divorce for frivolous reasons, sometimes they don't want to put in work on their relationship. Sometimes though, it is better for everyone involved to acknowledge that an unhealthy relationship does real damage to the parties involved, and the kids who witness it.

I see where you're coming from and I'd agree about the damage of living in a broken household. But in that case, I'd say that the parents should focus on fixing their marriage opposed to ending it. Adding evil to evil is never a good solution, and as the old saying of two wrongs don't make a right goes, if we have to resort to evil in order to solve one evil, then nobody has won in the end except for evil.

Now I know we can't force people to fix their marriage instead of divorcing--although it'd be cool if we can--I still don't think that the Church should remarry people which is basically sanctioned adultery per Christ's words. Acknowledging that a divorce has occurred is one thing; sanctioning a sin is another.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2014, 10:10:37 PM »
Divorce is a very tragic thing, but re-marriage I have to pass on that facet of the church... I just can't argue with Jesus Christ.

This

Jesus Christ Himself made it clear that remarriage except on the grounds of sexual immorality is adultery. I don't see any getting around it or wiggle room--Christ has spoken. And while I acknowledge the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth, I also realize that the Christ is the higher authority who the Church answers to. Simply put, there is no arguing with Jesus Christ. I don't care how many Fathers or years of Church history a person may bring up to try to justify it. It doesn't compare to Christ's own words. And in fact, most of the Fathers did take Christ's words at face value and prohibit remarriage except in the case of divorce or widowhood--such as St. Jerome who immediately comes to mind. And given the context of Christ's words as He was speaking publicly to a crowd of extraordinarily legalistic Pharisees, I doubt that there is any hidden allegorical meaning. I think in this case, He was speaking literally.

It's not just that the Church acknowledges that the great sin of a divorce has occurred, but that it remarries people and thus not only defiles a Sacrament, but sanctions sin. I know you'll bring up all that ekonomia compassion stuff, but that doesn't change Christ's own words anymore than it does the Bible's words on homosexuality. Ekonomia and compassion cannot be used to sanction sin. In fact, if love is leading you to make an exception and sanction sin, then I would say that's a false love because true love wouldn't want to lead that person further into sin.

This is where it helps to know the Hebrew understanding of Matthew 19 (KJV)

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

*note the word - fornication.  I've checked this through multiple transliterations.

A married person can't "fornicate", but can only commit adultery.

Heavy in the Jewish culture was the purity of one's wife (wife in betrothed state and/or after bridegroom).  She was expected to be a virgin when married.  If a man found out that she fornicated prior to marriage, then Houston, we have a problem.  It does not take to much time while reading the Torah to find out how important the virgin wife was.   It details this pretty heavily.

In this case, divorce and remarriage is invalid for any reason, except if the wife is divorced for fornication.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2014, 10:12:20 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 
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Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2014, 10:14:30 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'
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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2014, 10:25:12 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'

And you shouldn't. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
Quote
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Yim, you pulled a single verse without any context.  The whole of that chapter should be read to understand that verse better.  Paul is talking to Christians within the Church.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2014, 11:18:47 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though.  

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'

And you shouldn't. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
Quote
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Yim, you pulled a single verse without any context.  The whole of that chapter should be read to understand that verse better.  Paul is talking to Christians within the Church.

Read it again.  It's talking about belief.   Belief is not church.  Kelly asked about church.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:19:10 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2014, 11:50:07 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though.  

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'

And you shouldn't. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
Quote
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Yim, you pulled a single verse without any context.  The whole of that chapter should be read to understand that verse better.  Paul is talking to Christians within the Church.

Read it again.  It's talking about belief.   Belief is not church.  Kelly asked about church.

I don't know where to begin with this, or if it'd even be worth my time to do so.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2014, 11:54:31 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 
Which is a wonderful example why Sola Scriptura is such a terrible idea.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2014, 12:21:29 AM »
Divorce is a very tragic thing, but re-marriage I have to pass on that facet of the church... I just can't argue with Jesus Christ.

This

Jesus Christ Himself made it clear that remarriage except on the grounds of sexual immorality is adultery. I don't see any getting around it or wiggle room--Christ has spoken. And while I acknowledge the Church as the pillar and ground of the truth, I also realize that the Christ is the higher authority who the Church answers to. Simply put, there is no arguing with Jesus Christ. I don't care how many Fathers or years of Church history a person may bring up to try to justify it. It doesn't compare to Christ's own words. And in fact, most of the Fathers did take Christ's words at face value and prohibit remarriage except in the case of divorce or widowhood--such as St. Jerome who immediately comes to mind. And given the context of Christ's words as He was speaking publicly to a crowd of extraordinarily legalistic Pharisees, I doubt that there is any hidden allegorical meaning. I think in this case, He was speaking literally.

It's not just that the Church acknowledges that the great sin of a divorce has occurred, but that it remarries people and thus not only defiles a Sacrament, but sanctions sin. I know you'll bring up all that ekonomia compassion stuff, but that doesn't change Christ's own words anymore than it does the Bible's words on homosexuality. Ekonomia and compassion cannot be used to sanction sin. In fact, if love is leading you to make an exception and sanction sin, then I would say that's a false love because true love wouldn't want to lead that person further into sin.

Where's the Youtube video where Christ said all these words?  Link?

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2014, 12:22:41 AM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 

So a woman's husband is her one true God.  Got it.

I'm going to go watch some "Liturgy" videos now...

Offline Inquirer

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2014, 09:16:04 AM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though. 
Which is a wonderful example why Sola Scriptura is such a terrible idea.

This 100%.

Paul did say "wives, submit to your husbands", but his view of submission is considerably more nuanced than the fundamentalist Protestants that take this to mean that wives should be slaves and husbands should be loving slave-owners.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2014, 04:17:28 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though.  

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'

And you shouldn't. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
Quote
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Yim, you pulled a single verse without any context.  The whole of that chapter should be read to understand that verse better.  Paul is talking to Christians within the Church.

Read it again.  It's talking about belief.   Belief is not church.  Kelly asked about church.

Why don't you explain what you think it means?  Let's take it from there...

Offline vamrat

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2014, 04:53:49 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2014, 04:57:03 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2014, 04:59:42 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.


And this is supported by the stories of young women who -disregarded- their parent's 'sinful' wishes for them, often choosing martyrdom rather than the plan of a parent who would have led them out of the Church and into sin.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2014, 05:02:18 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.
I'm curious if such a interpretation would include such things as me telling my wife that we need to have a threesome, she should rob convenience stores if so instructed, she should accept spousal abuse, etc. This sounds like those crazy people with the Christian Domestic Discipline.
God bless!

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2014, 05:07:03 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.
I'm curious if such a interpretation would include such things as me telling my wife that we need to have a threesome, she should rob convenience stores if so instructed, she should accept spousal abuse, etc. This sounds like those crazy people with the Christian Domestic Discipline.


Please don't, I'm already worried that you two will end up on Dateline or 48 Hours Mystery.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.
I'm curious if such a interpretation would include such things as me telling my wife that we need to have a threesome, she should rob convenience stores if so instructed, she should accept spousal abuse, etc. This sounds like those crazy people with the Christian Domestic Discipline.


Please don't, I'm already worried that you two will end up on Dateline or 48 Hours Mystery.
She did throw a shoe at me once.  Is that perhaps the first step on the long spiral to non-submissiveness and ultimately my demise?
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2014, 05:54:09 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.

I don't think vamrat said that.  I think he more or less said you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2014, 05:55:34 PM »
She did throw a shoe at me once.  Is that perhaps the first step on the long spiral to non-submissiveness and ultimately my demise?


Offline vamrat

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2014, 06:04:38 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.

My wording was probably convoluted, as that is my tendency.  

Wives should submit to their husbands in the same way that they should render unto Caesar - do so until it threatens your soul.  If Caesar asks for a denarius give it to him, but your worship belongs to God.  If your husband leads the family as Christ does the Church, he should be followed, but if he demands things which are not his to demand, then follow God.

The fact that a wife should NOT submit to her husband when he leads into heresy, does not cancel out the rule towards submission in general but in this particular instance.

Hopefully that is more clear.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline vamrat

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2014, 06:07:45 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.

I don't think vamrat said that.  I think he more or less said you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Probably a better explanation than my attempt at clarification.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2014, 06:21:00 PM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Probably submit to him in the same way she renders unto Caesar when he demands sacrifices to Iupiter.

Your body is your body and your soul is your soul.  Cut off your hand if it causes you to sin and all that.

Unfortunately, this requires discernment, which is something that many seem to lack.  If Caesar demands you sacrifice a goat to Juno Cloaca you should disregard his command, even at the cost of your life.  At the same time, because you can disobey Caesar here, Christ is not giving you a license to toss a brick through the window in the forum and help yourself to a new triclinium set.  Likewise, the potential that your husband may conceivably lead you into heresy does not give you license to disregard scriptural teachings on family management, whether it makes you feel happy or not.

Keep in mind, all of this only matters if you desire to live according to the laws of God.  We do have freedom of choice afterall.

I completely disagree and I'm honestly surprised any Orthodox Christian would think it's alright to stray from the Church's teachings on account of their husband. God comes first.

My wording was probably convoluted, as that is my tendency.  

Wives should submit to their husbands in the same way that they should render unto Caesar - do so until it threatens your soul.  If Caesar asks for a denarius give it to him, but your worship belongs to God.  If your husband leads the family as Christ does the Church, he should be followed, but if he demands things which are not his to demand, then follow God.

The fact that a wife should NOT submit to her husband when he leads into heresy, does not cancel out the rule towards submission in general but in this particular instance.

Hopefully that is more clear.

It is, thank you.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2014, 09:00:26 PM »
She did throw a shoe at me once.  Is that perhaps the first step on the long spiral to non-submissiveness and ultimately my demise?


Why must you dreg up such painful memories? Now I will be sitting around tonight wondering if the other shoe will be flung.  >:(
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2014, 09:02:13 PM »
She did throw a shoe at me once.  Is that perhaps the first step on the long spiral to non-submissiveness and ultimately my demise?


Why must you dreg up such painful memories? Now I will be sitting around tonight wondering if the other shoe will be flung.  >:(


That would be your fault for letting her continue to wear, and to have access to shoes after the first incident. 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline biro

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2014, 09:03:16 PM »
In answer to the OP, prayers. Lots.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2014, 09:05:20 PM »
She did throw a shoe at me once.  Is that perhaps the first step on the long spiral to non-submissiveness and ultimately my demise?


Why must you dreg up such painful memories? Now I will be sitting around tonight wondering if the other shoe will be flung.  >:(


That would be your fault for letting her continue to wear, and to have access to shoes after the first incident. 
I probably have been too easy on her. I should have made her stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen since the day we were married. You can't throw shoes very easily when you don't own any and you have a big round belly getting in the way.
God bless!

Offline mabsoota

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2014, 01:18:42 PM »
maybe she read your entries on this website.

if all she has thrown is a shoe, you should count yourself lucky!
 :P

Offline mabsoota

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2014, 01:20:17 PM »
I thank God for allowing me to be married to an Orthodox wife for seventeen years before converting; now with my convert zeal I've been driving her mad with theological questions, and she said I should go the the local monastery for three days or so. ::)

your wife waited 17 years???
 ???
 :o

she is even more of a saint than theTrisagion's wife!

may God bless you all.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2014, 01:23:38 PM »
maybe she read your entries on this website.

if all she has thrown is a shoe, you should count yourself lucky!
 :P
LOL!!! My wife is a truly wonderful woman and does not deserve all the harassing I give her. We have a pretty fun relationship where we tease each other a good bit and fortunately, she doesn't get her feelings hurt over it. There are not many women that I have encountered that have as thick of a skin as she does.  :P
God bless!

Offline mabsoota

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2014, 01:41:57 PM »
ok, just worried on your behalf she will read your posts.
 :)

(i pass everything i post through my special 'spousal censor' where i imagine i am in my husband's brain,
and decide what punishment he will implement on seeing what i have written about him!)
i have to pass up a lot of funny stories!
i'll post them when (oops, i mean if!) he becomes orthodox...

maybe in 17 years...
 ;)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2014, 02:11:10 PM »
ok, just worried on your behalf she will read your posts.
 :)

(i pass everything i post through my special 'spousal censor' where i imagine i am in my husband's brain,
and decide what punishment he will implement on seeing what i have written about him!)
i have to pass up a lot of funny stories!
i'll post them when (oops, i mean if!) he becomes orthodox...

maybe in 17 years...
 ;)
I would not be concerned at all if she read my posts. I don't think I have said anything here that I haven't said to her or in front of her to friends. She writes the same kind of stuff about me on the forums she frequents.  She reads to me some of the stuff she posts about me. It's pretty funny, actually.  :P
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2014, 01:28:32 AM »
What is a woman supposed to do if her headship tries to lead her out of the Church?

Ephesians 5:24
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A24&version=KJV



Okey doke.

I know it sounds strange, but by this, the wife is actually following the scriptures.  This is a super tragic thing you described.... it does happen though.  

I will not apostasize for the sake of my 'headship'

And you shouldn't. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
Quote
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Yim, you pulled a single verse without any context.  The whole of that chapter should be read to understand that verse better.  Paul is talking to Christians within the Church.

Read it again.  It's talking about belief.   Belief is not church.  Kelly asked about church.

Why don't you explain what you think it means?  Let's take it from there...

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2014, 02:50:15 AM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???


Offline Asteriktos

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2014, 05:17:41 AM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???

I answer for TheTrisagion, but I'm a bit tired right now, so he'll I'll have to get back to you a bit later this morning on this.
"Well, do I convince you, that one ought never to despair of the disorders of the soul as incurable? ...For even if thou shouldst despair of thyself ten thousand times, I will never despair of thee" - St. John Chrysostom

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2014, 10:05:36 AM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???


Say what? Where did I answer for yesh?  ??? I don't agree with a single thing he says ever! I don't even see where you have ever posted in this thread.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:07:33 AM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2014, 10:49:11 AM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.

Offline biro

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2014, 10:51:31 AM »
Thread needs kitty cat.

My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2014, 10:54:31 AM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:54:43 AM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2014, 10:56:04 AM »
Thread needs Rachel Weisz


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2014, 10:56:50 AM »
She's not lukewarm!
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2014, 10:59:00 AM »
She's not lukewarm!

Morwarm would be ideal.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2014, 06:53:15 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.

Did you just contradict yourself in Reply #101?   ???  :o  ???

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2014, 06:54:20 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???

I answer for TheTrisagion, but I'm a bit tired right now, so he'll I'll have to get back to you a bit later this morning on this.

That was very helpful.   :)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2014, 07:04:27 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.

His PR staff decides what questions to answer and when.  I believe they represent YiM.  They are a Pittsburgh, PA based PR firm.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2014, 07:08:15 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.

Did you just contradict yourself in Reply #101?   ???  :o  ???
Think back, has there ever really been a time when I made coherent sense for any longer than about three sentences?  :P

Although, really don't have a clue what you are actually referencing, but that's ok.  8)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 07:09:05 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2014, 07:11:29 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.

Did you just contradict yourself in Reply #101?   ???  :o  ???
Think back, has there ever really been a time when I made coherent sense for any longer than about three sentences?  :P

Although, really don't have a clue what you are actually referencing, but that's ok.  8)

I asked YiM a question about biblical courtship in another thread and you answered for him.

Offline biro

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2014, 07:12:00 PM »
This thread is getting more helpful with every post.

My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline Theophania

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #114 on: November 20, 2014, 07:13:53 PM »
I, for one, still really want to know how he defines "biblical courtship" - I've heard enough about St. Constantine to last me a lifetime, I'd rather hear about this.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #115 on: November 20, 2014, 07:26:56 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.

Did you just contradict yourself in Reply #101?   ???  :o  ???
Think back, has there ever really been a time when I made coherent sense for any longer than about three sentences?  :P

Although, really don't have a clue what you are actually referencing, but that's ok.  8)

I asked YiM a question about biblical courtship in another thread and you answered for him.
Oh. ok.
God bless!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #116 on: November 20, 2014, 07:37:41 PM »
Is it me or is TheTrisagion a spokesperson for yeshuaisiam?

Mor Ephrem can ask yeshuaisiam questions and yesh answers them; however, when I ask yeshuaisiam a question, TheTrisagion answers for yesh.

I don't understand....   ??? ??? ???



Clearly...for starters, YiM doesn't always answer my questions.
That is why I have to answer. Consider me the icon of YiM. The answer from the icon flows from the prototype.

Did you just contradict yourself in Reply #101?   ???  :o  ???
Think back, has there ever really been a time when I made coherent sense for any longer than about three sentences?  :P

Although, really don't have a clue what you are actually referencing, but that's ok.  8)

I asked YiM a question about biblical courtship in another thread and you answered for him.
Oh. ok.

Since YiM didn't answer for himself, I don't know if his view on biblical courtship agrees with your view, or if you and YiM agree with Justin or if the 3 of you agree... - see how convoluted things get?

I don't see any of you stepping up for YiM when Mor asks questions; hence, the reference to the PR firm working for YiM.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #117 on: November 20, 2014, 07:41:40 PM »
I don't really pay attention to who is posting what. If I see something I am inclined to respond to, I do. If I don't respond to Mor, it is probably because whatever he said was boring to me.  :P
God bless!

Offline Georgii

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2014, 08:16:49 AM »
Think back, has there ever really been a time when I made coherent sense for any longer than about three sentences?  :P

Like Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us? :P :P :P

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Offline ShayneSwenson

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Re: When your spouse has lukewarm faith
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2014, 11:54:41 PM »
I also make Tattoos for a living
http://instagram.com/shayneswenson