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Author Topic: Vladimir Putin  (Read 7579 times) Average Rating: 0
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Strelets
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« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2005, 05:03:36 PM »

All right, for anyone who imagines we live in a more rotten form of government than the monarchial ones of the olden days, picture this...

King Bill of Arkansas (or King George of Crawford for our liberal friends)

Now how does it make you feel knowing this person is permanently affixed to the office for most, if not all, of your remaining days with no fiscal or legal accountability? I prefer a valve available to society to vent itself rather than bloody, lawless revolutions every twenty years because the government isn't responsive to the majority of people. We can debate which form of free market democratic republicanism is best, but I prefer having a system not much different from our own where at least we have legal, non-bloody outlets to protect our property, vote out of office the bums we don't like, and not helplessly watch our daughters spirited away by the local barons.
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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2005, 01:49:56 PM »

I thought this thread is about Russian President Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putin. But the point, as some Arabs say is becoming, or has already become lost in time, or is it rhetoric?
Also, I find this to be extremely cute that, American politics are not supposed to be discussed here, but this is what is happening.  How is this that I can type the full name of my president, but cannot do that about the president of Amerika?
‘Augustine’ has said what I was going to say about democracy, so about this I will not say no more about this so called Putin fan Ukrainian ex-jail felon.
Question! What about the first democratically elected president of South Afrika. Don’t ask, you say. Well then, I say, g*vn*o. 
And, Strelets, you and I cannot expect many of Western readers to properly or at all understand Solzhenitsyn, because he is not for the faint of heart. 
All this about monarchy and strong handed governments let us be careful, if we don’t  understand either of the konsepts.  We are here none of us children. And, about the price of petroleum at your locals pump, the game, brothers and sisters, is not played in Riyadh, but in New York. Because, friends, Iraq is a dud of the height of all orders.
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cizinec
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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2005, 05:06:17 PM »

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Also, I find this to be extremely cute that, American politics are not supposed to be discussed here, but this is what is happening.

Vasilisa, welcome! 

I have tried to maintain my statements as broad governmental and economic theories and have tried not to apply them to any particular government.  I'm not stating a position on anything specific to American, European, Russian, British or any other political issue.

I think we may agree more than disagree.

As for Putin, as I've said before, he's an excellent politician.  Is that good for Russia?  That's a different issue. 
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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2005, 06:41:43 PM »

Thanks to those of you who agree with me about monarchy and Thanks to those of you who don't agree with me but tolerate my views which often shock most people. Most people think I a 'nut-job' and call me anti-American when I mention many of my criticisms of democracy. The ideal of monarchy is that it be like that which was established in the Old Testament with the line of the King and Prophet David. Now I admit that it often does not happen that way and that monarchy like every form of government is flawed due to fallen human passions, just look at David's sin with Urias's wife, but it is the most exalted form of government given to us by God.
As for it being part of Orthodoxy I think Vladimir Moss has written quite well on this in his books The Resoration of Romanity and The Mystery of Christian Power. http://romanitas.ru/eng/ St.John of San Francisco wrote this about Saint and Tsar Nicholas II
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"the bearer and incarnation of the Orthodox world-view that the Tsar is the servant of God, the anointed of GodGǪ. He was thoroughly penetrated by this awareness; he viewed his bearing of the Imperial crown as a service to GodGǪ. He was a living incarnation of faith in the Divine Providence that works in the destinies of nations and peoples and directs Rulers faithful to God into good and useful actions. Therefore he was intolerable for the enemies of faith and for those who strive to put human reasoning and human faculties above everything."
Hieromonk Peter Loukianoff remembered
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Vladika was not only a convinced monarchist, but he considered it necessary to support the authority of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich [Romanov]. At the daily liturgies he would commemorate the Russian Royal House, and at feast day liturgies he commemorated the Grand Duke by name. On special days, as for example the Sunday of Orthodoxy, he commemorated individually all the Orthodox monarchs: Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Rumanian. Vladika was firmly opposed to substituting the prayer for right-believing kings with the words "Orthodox Christians". Specifically, in the troparion, “Save, O Lord, Thy people," he insisted on the words, "victory to right-believing king.."
Throughout Orthodox history it was considered the duty of every Orthodox Christian to love the right-believing Orthodox Emperor as part of the Orthodox faith and I do not think the triumph of republicanism and democracy means that this stops. Russian Orthodox Saints who lived during and after the fall of the Tsar always said this was the greatest sin of the Russian people. There are now in the Western Rite many people who venerate Archbishop Laud and King Charles I. While I am not sure how to view the veneration of these men I do know that they also believe the greatest sin of the English people was killing the pious King Charles. Though I am not sure how they view the deaths Edward II and Richard II I do know that I can agree with them on Charles I.

But back to Putin I think he is trying to cleanse himself of his past and even make himself more and more like the Tsars. The man has a chapel next to his house, like the Tsars, actively seeks the favor of the Church, like the Tsars, and more than this is working on centralization, like the Tsars.

I am glad he is taking this route and not the route some people in Russia want: an Atheist tyrant. If you think I am wrong about this consider the 30% of Russians have said that if Stalin was alive they would vote for him!
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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2005, 07:22:30 PM »

Lo! Another monarchist here.

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Now how does it make you feel knowing this person is permanently affixed to the office for most, if not all, of your remaining days with no fiscal or legal accountability?

I believe it is Hans-Hermann Hoppe who has made the point that with hereditary monarchy, you may have a great leader, or you may have a scoundrel, but with democracy, you are guaranteed a scoundrel.
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« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2005, 12:40:31 AM »

Yeah, well, not all scoundrels are the same! And I like the kind I get to pick!
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« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2005, 03:41:37 AM »

Yeah, well, not all scoundrels are the same!  And I like the kind I get to pick!

IOW - no real change in govenment? A scoundrel is a scounrel, is a...
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« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2005, 03:52:11 AM »

Yeah, well, not all scoundrels are the same!  And I like the kind I get to pick!

Myself, I like the kind that aren't picked by anyone so they don't feel the need to pay back the corporate and personal giants that got them in office.

Marjorie
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2005, 05:16:13 AM »

Ok guys, I'll fess up! I'm a Russophile, and as I stand outside of both American and Russian politics, I think I can make more objective judgements. I stand in opposition to Stralets on this issue, but I'm a grown man, and I can agree to dissagree, or take the critisism that will come my way. Wink
I will admit that President Vladimir Putin is no saint. Neither am I! I am the chief of sinners. (BTW, the last Tsar was not a saint in his life-time either, but he IS my Patron Saint now, and I look to him for guidance. I think King David in the OT had a few personal problems too.)
I have been following and reading up all I can on Putin's 'Orthodox Manner', and as far as I can see, he's as geunine a convert (Though baptised a cradle) as any one of us. I am not God, so can not look into his heart. But as far as I can tell, he makes as much effort, if not more, than I, to be Orthodox. He has the advantage of being the Head of State, so can be very close to the Patriarch of Moscow, Alexi II. That's not a bad thing though.
The Head of State has heavy burdens to bear, and I for one would certainly not like to stand in his shoes. But in one respect he is still ensuring the Nuclear stability of the world by continuing the principle of MAD - Mutual Assured Destuction. And I doubt very much if his hand would be the first to press 'The Panic Button'.
Sometimes I get the impression he thinks he has taken on the mantel of the Tsar (If one looks at his website, the Byzantine Eagle is thier emblem) But the other day he did promise Condi Rice he was not planning on a third term in office. (This has panicked my wife, who is vey much a Putin supporter.) Whoever gets to fill that job, I'm sure that God is in control of that.
Russia is definitly not the "American" idea of Democracy. But to each his own. I live in an imperfect country too (Our president refers to it as a "Socialist Democracy", though not much has changed since this was a minority run government - only the faces. We have relative freedom of the press, freedom of religion, etc. And I don't think there is any 'crime free' country in the world today - anywhere. The levels of intensity may vary, but the devil is loose,' seeking whom he may devour'.)
The subject is Putin, and I digress.
Yes, I would like to see a Tsar back in office too. They were a Monarchy for nearly a 1000 years. So I think that is what many (though not all) Russians would like. The country needs a Firm Hand at the helm. They have that now. How long, we don't know.
I pray for Russia!
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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2005, 01:26:41 PM »

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Myself, I like the kind that aren't picked by anyone so they don't feel the need to pay back the corporate and personal giants that got them in office.

In this world, those kind exist in movies and fairy-tales.  Every ruler needs supporters and are thus "picked."
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2005, 08:29:42 PM »



In this world, those kind exist in movies and fairy-tales. Every ruler needs supporters and are thus "picked."

True, there is a spectrum; it is a matter of degree.

Marjorie
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