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Author Topic: Official "Kingdom of Heaven" Thread  (Read 2783 times) Average Rating: 0
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Elisha
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« on: May 09, 2005, 12:40:37 PM »

Anyone see it yet?  If yes, what did you think?  I haven't seen it yet, but expect it to be way too western biased both historically and culturally (as in portraying the Orthodox as RCs) speaking.
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2005, 01:11:52 PM »

I'm not going to see it.  I hate "historical novels" and "historical films."  They tend to make people believe that what they show actually occurred.  The last book I read in that category was "Name of the Rose." 

I'm constantly arguing with my mother-in-law who reads these terrible "historical mystery" books that convince her of a lot of strange "facts" about Christian history. 

I pass the main Houston library on my way to work.  If I want to know more about the Crusades I'll be sure to stop in.  Watching a highly dramatized work of drivel with a lot of special effects, bloody gore and poor dialogue is not my idea of a great time. 

Thanks, but I'll skip it and watch Star Wars.  At least people know it's fiction.  Well, most people do, anyway. 
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2005, 01:20:03 PM »

The last book I read in that category was "Name of the Rose."


I think I saw it in a HS history class way back when.  I should rent it again since I pretty much have forgotten everything.
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cizinec
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2005, 01:26:14 PM »

Read the book and skip the movie.  On second thought, skip the book and read something else.
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2005, 05:47:03 PM »

This movie is going to be one of the biggest flops of the year. I think I read somewhere that it had a budget of over 130 million to produce and market; but it only took in 20 million the first weekend. It's also rated R and is getting hit hard by critics, so it's unlikely to gain momentum as it goes.. I will probably rent it when it comes out on DVD.
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2005, 06:06:13 PM »

This movie is going to be one of the biggest flops of the year.

Nah, Alexander took the cake for that (well, maybe it was last year and KoH for this year then).  Alexander was HORRIBLE.
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2005, 06:31:19 PM »

Given the persecuation of Orthodox Christians at the hands of the crusaders, I do not plan on seeing a film which glorifies their "heroism". On the other hand, I've heard that this isn't that kind of movie.
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2005, 06:39:40 PM »

  I saw the movie.  I want my $8 back!   It was one big piece of propaganda- trying to convince me that the Muslims are just worshiping God, like us Christians are.  I thought the funniest part was when they made a referance to the "Christian denominations."  Don't spend your money on this piece of trash.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 06:49:06 PM »

Quote
I saw the movie.  I want my $8 back!   It was one big piece of propaganda- trying to convince me that the Muslims are just worshiping God, like use Christians are.  I thought the funniest part was when they made a referance to the "Christian denominations."  Don't spend your money on this piece of trash.

Man...that sucks. I really wanted to see the movie because it looked good, but now I may not. Leave it up to hollyweird to mess up a good thing. Maybe Mel Gibson can do something similiar that's not for the PC crowd.
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 06:54:30 PM »

It was one big piece of propaganda- trying to convince me that the Muslims are just worshiping God, like use Christians are.

"If someone lives in the midst of Christianity and enters, with knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true God, and prays, but prays in untruth, and if someone lives in an idolatrous land but prays with all the passion of infinity, although his eyes are resting upon the image of an idol - where, then, is there more truth? The one prays in truth to God although he is worshipping an idol; the other prays in untruth to the true God and is therefore in truth worshipping an idol."
Soren Kierkegaard
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 07:33:36 PM »



Man...that sucks. I really wanted to see the movie because it looked good, but now I may not. Leave it up to hollyweird to mess up a good thing. Maybe Mel Gibson can do something similiar that's not for the PC crowd.

Double Sucks!  I was hoping Ridley Scott would do a better job than Oliver Stone for Alexander.  Shame on me for being optimistic.
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 10:05:05 PM »

While Ebert's review seemed hopeless, the Boston Globe guy seemed to get it:

"In the end, though, the movie's well-intentioned message of peace and good will seems absurdly naive the moment you leave the theater and pick up a newspaper. The Crusades continue today, of course, as unyielding and bloody-minded on both sides as ever, but to really address that, the filmmakers would have to speak more than the language of movie cliches, historical fibs, and Civics 101 platitudes."  It also mentioned anachronisms such as the presence of crossbows 400 years before they were invented.  The reviewed didn't seem to be sarcastic in the above, but lamenting how banal and a slap in the face of history the movie was by not being accurate.

Landon,
Did any of the "church" scenes remotely resemble Orthodox scenes or were they all inaccurately Latin dominated?
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 10:09:44 PM »

All Latin.  The Orthodox Church didn't seem to excist, unless we were one of the "denominations."  And every one crossed themselves, open hand, left to right.
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 10:43:35 PM »

All Latin. The Orthodox Church didn't seem to excist, unless we were one of the "denominations." And every one crossed themselves, open hand, left to right.

I knew it.  You'd think a Brit would know how to make a film.
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2005, 08:24:07 AM »

So called "historical fiction" is often terribly disappointing, laden not only with technical anachronisms, but cultural/philosophical ones as well (ex. putting post-modern egalitarian ideals in the mouth of a pagan Greek, who in reality would have believed that things like slavery and chattel wives were inevitable realities and entirely natural, etc.)

I'm particularly unfond of these when they deal with religious topics, as they cause an incredible amount of confusion amongst those who are "simple" in their approach to such matters, or are poorly catechized and so historically illiterate that they will take what they are viewing far more serious than they ought to.  Even when such works are heavily prefaced with claims that they are "only fictional", the reality often is that this is an attempt to exempt the authors from scrutiny - having their cake and eating it too, I suppose (ex. Dan Brown and his blasphemous little book, which fortunately a number of people have taken the pains to take a part - a good example being the series on Fr.Joseph Huneycutt's ORTHODIXIE blog).

It also goes without saying that such works only give fuel to those with itching ears, who are prepared to believe anything but the truth in matters like this.  I'm sure each of us has a co-worker or family member like this who causes them no end of annoyance.

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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2005, 11:44:50 AM »

Quote
Even when such works are heavily prefaced with claims that they are "only fictional", the reality often is that this is an attempt to exempt the authors from scrutiny - having their cake and eating it too, I suppose

A perfect example... the flick Gladiator. An otherwise visually great movie was ruined by it's rose-colored treatment of Marcus Aurelius, who was in reality a thug towards Christians, whereas (ironically) his son was tolerant towards us.
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2005, 11:50:14 AM »



A perfect example... the flick Gladiator.  An otherwise visually great movie was ruined by it's rose-colored treatment of Marcus Aurelius, who was in reality a thug towards Christians, whereas (ironically) his son was tolerant towards us.

Yes....and another Ridley Scott film.  Although I think with Gladiator, everyone pretty much knew it was supposed to be fighting for fighting's sake (and the uprising/plight of the common man) and anything else (like about any "Christians" at the time) was a complete sidebar.  With Kingdom of Heaven, there is supposed to be a whole underlying religious ("Christian") theme, which I guess (from Reviews since I haven't seen it yet) just get's completely screwed up in more ways than one.
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2005, 02:34:24 PM »

Historical fiction is good if it is treated as fiction. I am bothered every time someone refers to Inherit the Wind as historically accurate.
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2005, 02:47:35 PM »

Some historical fiction is, for the most part, largely accurate. For instance, the Kristin Lavransdatter books by Sigrid Undset.

But as for these crappy movies... blegh.

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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2005, 04:59:06 PM »

But as for these crappy movies... blegh.

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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2005, 09:33:59 PM »

I saw the movie with a few friends from church and, of course, from a religious point of view we were disappointed.  The only good guys among the crusaders were people who didn't really believe in God.  The bad guys were people who used the Christian religion for their purposes.  The Muslims were all depicted favorably.  Not that I have a problem with Muslims ever being depicted favorably, but there were no religious Christians who were good guys. 

Something which struck me as odd was the complete absense of prayer among the Christian characters.  The Muslims, more than once, were shown praying, but you never see a Christian praying, either privately or in a liturgical setting.  In fact, I don't think they ever showed the inside of a church, much less a Christian service.

The opening scene sort of set the tone for the movie.  It showed a priest stealing a cross from the neck of a dead woman whom he was going to bury.  I knew right then the film was not going to be charitable toward Christians.

You would think that Hollywood would have caught on that the reason The Passion of the Chirst was such a big hit was because it was favorable toward the Christian religion.  Christian bashing has gotten old.  Been there, done that.  I would imagine the atheists have even become tired of it by now.

I am no historical scholar when it comes to the Crusades, but even I was able to pick up on historical inaccuracies and omissions.  For example, the only groups depicted in this film were Arab Muslims and European Christians.  Orthodox Christians who were native to that part of the world were never shown or even mentioned. 


The following is a pretty good review:

http://www.americanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8137

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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2005, 04:30:59 PM »

Something which struck me as odd was the complete absense of prayer among the Christian characters. The Muslims, more than once, were shown praying, but you never see a Christian praying, either privately or in a liturgical setting. In fact, I don't think they ever showed the inside of a church, much less a Christian service.


Well... I have never held Roman Catholic Crusaders in high regard, not even as a Catholic. As an Orthodox Christian, I would not be surprised if most of the Crusaders were godless men. Think of what they did to Constantinople.
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2005, 05:41:54 PM »

Am I the only one here who saw the movie and liked it?

The point that Scott was trying to make about the Crusades was the dichotomy between the high-minded loftiness that launched them, with the greed and barbarity in which they descended. In this, Scott succeeds brilliantly.

Also, Saladin was considered by his contemporaries to be a chivalrous warrior - both Muslims and Christians considered him so (and he fought them both).

True, Greeks, Byzantines and local Orthodox Christians are not even a presence in this film. But Scott isn't the first filmmaker to make that omission. By contrast, the Catholic Church does wind up looking pretty bad, but in fairness, they should, as the Crusades were not its most shining moment.

I looked up what happened during the real Crusades on Wikipedia. The truth was far, far more complicated than the movie. (There was a Queen Sabilla, but she never wound up with the Lord of Ibelin - and he went on to found a dynasty in the Middle East). But the portrayal of the disaster at Hattin seems to square with the contemporary accounts.
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2005, 09:36:48 AM »

Matthew,

Quote
Well... I have never held Roman Catholic Crusaders in high regard, not even as a Catholic. As an Orthodox Christian, I would not be surprised if most of the Crusaders were godless men. Think of what they did to Constantinople.

While I think it's a service to simple truth to not see the Crusades through rose tinted glasses, I don't think anyone is handing out hero cookies for being a self-hating westerner either.

The Crusades, like any other war, were a mixed bag.  I think there were plenty of idealists going out to fight them - but in the end, the Gospel maxim stands "live by the sword, die by the sword."  There is no "Christian warfare", hence why they could not help but devolving so often into opportunistic exploits.

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