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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: New here
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2015, 04:42:33 PM »
To TomTorbeyns:

Do you consider yourself to be Trinitian, because the impression im getting from your words, is that you reject the Trinity

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2015, 04:45:01 PM »
:D I don't like the veneration of saints, icons, praying for the dead and all those things... I think they can distract from Christ... :/
If there would be an orthodox church, without those things, I would join :)

What you are really asking for is a Church without the Incarnation and the Resurrection.  Try Judaism.  ;)

No no no no no! :D

The dead saints have no power to help us here on this earth, I believe. :)
God can be freely prayed to, as stated in Hebrews 4:16 :P

God can be prayed to, Saints only have the power the grace of God gives them. You need to know what Orthodox (and Catholics I guess...) believe before you make strawmen to knock down.

Furthermore, what you believe is irrelevant. What Christianity teaches is. That's sort of a thing.

That was a gnostic text I guess and it stated that Mary was sinless, which is not correct. She knew Jesus was her Savior. (See the Gospel of Luke for more info)

Whether the Theotokos is sinless or not doesn't matter to the Orthodox. Many believe that she is sinless but there are also some amongst us(Orthodox) who believe in the opposite.

Regardless the Protoevangelium of James is not a Gnostic text. It was widely circulated throughout the Early Church.

One less excuse to become Orthodox believer :P

What is the protoevangelium of James? Is it maybe that text I was unknowingly referring to? (As I am not good with titles)

150ad-200ad Bart Ehrman calls it an expression of "proto-orthodox" Christianity. Ergo, the Christianity that gave us the Trinity also gave us the Protoevangelium.

i've heard he became an atheist...

Agnostic. Where I am some days. The point was the latter bit, the Church which gave us the Trinity also gave us the Protoevangelium. As well as that Bible you're so fond of.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:12:07 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2015, 04:48:50 PM »
Tradition is the breath of the Holy Spirit.If you doubt Tradition you doubt Holy Spirit so you doubt God.Simple as that

Nope. All Scripture is God breathed. Tradition is not the breath of the Holy Spirit, that is not what the Holy Spirit told us.

Actually it is. You haven't read that part. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2015, 04:50:21 PM »
But if Tradition is at odds with the Bible, then the tradition is not holy but the Bible r emains holy.
Doctrines of men are dangerous, since they can be equal to doctrines of devils.
Or... perhaps an individuals understanding of Tradition is at odds with that individuals understanding of Scripture. In any event, Holy Tradition is not at odds with the Bible because it is all from God.

That is your opinion. It is not, as far as we know, confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
Interesting... and what is your confirmation that Scripture is from the Holy Spirit?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
- 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
So any writing that claims that it is God-breathed is a writing that you would follow based on it's own testimony?

If I claimed that everything I said was God-breathed, would you obey me?

No no no. "All Scripture" here means: "The Holy Bible". (I think tradition says that :P )

The only Scripture during St. Paul and St. Timothy's time was the Old Testament. And it wasn't the version you presumably use.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Nathanael

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Re: New here
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2015, 04:51:00 PM »
But if Tradition is at odds with the Bible, then the tradition is not holy but the Bible r emains holy.
Doctrines of men are dangerous, since they can be equal to doctrines of devils.
Or... perhaps an individuals understanding of Tradition is at odds with that individuals understanding of Scripture. In any event, Holy Tradition is not at odds with the Bible because it is all from God.

That is your opinion. It is not, as far as we know, confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
Interesting... and what is your confirmation that Scripture is from the Holy Spirit?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
- 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
So any writing that claims that it is God-breathed is a writing that you would follow based on it's own testimony?

If I claimed that everything I said was God-breathed, would you obey me?

No no no. "All Scripture" here means: "The Holy Bible". (I think tradition says that :P )
Why do you choose to believe the Bible when it says that it is God-breathed, but you don't believe the book of Mithras when it says it is God-breathed?

Because the Bible is given by God, as confirmed by the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Faith is the assurance of things unseen.

And the Holy Tradition is also given by God, because the Apostle gave us teachings not only in writing, but also oral. Tradition" or in Greek “paradosis”, is used very often in the New Testament both as a verb and a noun. (See I Corinthians 11:23), where literally translating the original Greek, Paul says "for I received of the Lord that which I also have traditioned to you . . . ." (see also I Corinthians 11:2, and II  Thessalonians 2:15 and 3:6.)
Tradition means "that which is handed over."  The New Testament carefully distinguishes between "traditions of men" and The Tradition, which is the Faith handed over to us by Christ in the Holy Spirit.  That same Faith was believed and practiced several decades before the New Testament Scriptures were set down in writing and given canonical (i.e., official) status.  We experience the Tradition as timeless and ever timely, ancient and ever new.
We distinguish between The Tradition ("with a capital T") which is the Faith/Practice of the Undivided Church, and traditions ("with a little t") which are local or national customs. Due to changing circumstances, sometimes cherished traditions must be altered or respectfully laid aside for the sake of The Tradition. The New Testament Scriptures are the primary written witness to the Tradition.

1. If you don't believe in Holy Tradition, how do you explan to yourself, that in writings of the Apostolic fathers, for example Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, who had been spending many years together with some of the Apostles, we can find detailed teachings, which we cannot find in the New Testament?
2. If you don't believe in Holy Tradition, what happened then with the oral teachings the Apostles instructed us and they told us to hold it (I Cor. 11:2, Acts 2:42; II Thess. 2:15, 3:6), did they just get lost?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:52:53 PM by Nathanael »
Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2015, 04:53:37 PM »
But if Tradition is at odds with the Bible, then the tradition is not holy but the Bible r emains holy.
Doctrines of men are dangerous, since they can be equal to doctrines of devils.
Or... perhaps an individuals understanding of Tradition is at odds with that individuals understanding of Scripture. In any event, Holy Tradition is not at odds with the Bible because it is all from God.

That is your opinion. It is not, as far as we know, confirmed by the Holy Spirit.
Interesting... and what is your confirmation that Scripture is from the Holy Spirit?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
- 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
So any writing that claims that it is God-breathed is a writing that you would follow based on it's own testimony?

If I claimed that everything I said was God-breathed, would you obey me?

No no no. "All Scripture" here means: "The Holy Bible". (I think tradition says that :P )
Why do you choose to believe the Bible when it says that it is God-breathed, but you don't believe the book of Mithras when it says it is God-breathed?

Because the Bible is given by God, as confirmed by the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Faith is the assurance of things unseen.

How is the Bible given to us by God?
Nothing in the Bible is written by God, but the books in the Canon is about people's encounters with God and their interactions with God.
The Gospels are written by humans who has either walked with Christ physically on earth or by someone who has interviewed such person.
Jesus left no writings behind on this earth as we know of.

That the Bible is supposed to have been handed to us by God is Heresy and as others has already said it kinda reminds us of Islam.

The scripture is written under influence of the Holy Spirit not by Him.




That is the Roman Catholic view, which also denies miracles (except for their occult variant of the eucharist) and finds tradition more important than the Bible.
The Bible was never a philosophy, like it is wattered down to us in these ages. It is God breathed as written in 2 Timothy 3:16. If the pope says something else (brings you another gospel) let him be accursed, as Paul wrote.

The RC Church doesn't deny miracles. You don't know what Orthodoxy and Catholicism are, and yet are criticizing them.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2015, 04:55:10 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.
WE ARE ALL SAVED TOM.Thats what orthodox people believe that all will be saved while you Tom think you are the only ones that Jesus will save.Wake up you are half-knowledge.Lord have mercy!!

I didn't say that. All who trust that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient are saved. The others aren't.

You aren't universalist, right?

Many early Christians were universalists. The point is that being saved is indeed a process, and that only God knows who is saved it isn't something arbitrarily determined by people who have a book that they use to condemn everyone who isn't like them.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2015, 04:57:55 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.
WE ARE ALL SAVED TOM.Thats what orthodox people believe that all will be saved while you Tom think you are the only ones that Jesus will save.Wake up you are half-knowledge.Lord have mercy!!

I didn't say that. All who trust that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient are saved. The others aren't.

You aren't universalist, right?

That's a belief that's very limited in Christianity, limited to Evangelicals. I won't ask you what it could mean, since that's likely just to lead to circuitous argument.

it's straight out of the Bible, also believed by Baptists, Arminians, Calvinists, Lutherans, Anglicans,... (and I think the Orthodox friends I have also believe it and some Roman Catholics believe in it). Only Jesus saves, I can only trust in it and then work. My works cannot add to my salvation, but are a result of my faith in Him, of which I am sure by the Holy Spirit.

Epistle of St. James. We are not saved by faith alone...
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Nathanael

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Re: New here
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2015, 05:17:23 PM »
Can somebody give me a definition what faith is? So if I believe that Christ died for my sins on the cross, I'm saved? So I can have a right faith in Christ and I can in the same beat horribly my kids daily, can rape daily young women, can kill daily people, but just because I have "strong" relationsship with Christ I will be still saved.
The best source I've found, which explained in the most profounded way what it means to believe in God and what it means to do good works, is the following link:
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/series/imputed_righteouness
Wisdom from Elder Seraphim - All our troubles come from...:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6eL2pwtVKs

The Goal of an Orthodox Monk: 'Incarnation of Love':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZishdSrYWM

Offline sakura95

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Re: New here
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2015, 05:24:32 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

Keith Thompson also had fights with certain Protestants...like all the others who believe in Libertarian Free Will and the Lutherans. Even then, like it or not the 33 000 is probably much more than that. There will always be a "Church of X", "God the redeemer Church", "Mountain of Holy Spirit Charismatic Church"....and so on which can exist within a single city. All of these churches exist as independent denominations and they all have disagreements on the Eucharist, Free Will, Predestination, Atonement...etc.

Now add that to every city in every country with a significant Christian population in the world and you get more than 30,000 denominations.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:24:50 PM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline MarianCatholic

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Re: New here
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2015, 06:56:30 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


Christ is Risen, Alleluia!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2015, 07:06:06 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.

Indeed. Matthew 25 is about works, not about faith. Those who do the works Christ commanded will see paradise, even those who 'believe' but don't do good works will be condemned.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: New here
« Reply #147 on: January 06, 2015, 10:05:58 AM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: New here
« Reply #148 on: January 06, 2015, 10:06:34 AM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

Also reply to "xOrthodox4Christx"

Offline MarianCatholic

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Re: New here
« Reply #149 on: January 06, 2015, 10:23:26 AM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

I think you have got it all wrong.
By saying that we are called to become Saints it really means that we will slowly cease to search for earthly pleasures and let Christ grow in us (hopefully to the point that his will is ours and the other way around, short story till we are saints).


You accuse me of mocking Christ without no right to do so.
I never spoke blasphemic in any of my previous posts in this thread or at all for that matter.
It is a very serious accusation to throw at someone and I think you should apologise to me for it.

Yes, His work is the key, He has done everything he needs for us to be saved.
I think we agree about that part.
What continue to baffle me is how you consider works and the fruit of the faithfuls to be unimportant and/ or uncalled for even though the scripture (which you are so found of) says differently.
I have even referred to scripture and it supports it.

Your way of thinking is a new way of thinking that came with Luther and I'll leave it for you to decide whether or not all Christians for the first 1500 year where totally wrong and Luther alone understood that we can behave as we like and totally ignore the parts of the Bible that we do not like.

Again it's your choice...
Christ is Risen, Alleluia!

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: New here
« Reply #150 on: January 06, 2015, 10:32:52 AM »
To TomTorbeyns:

Do you consider yourself to be Trinitian, because the impression im getting from your words, is that you reject the Trinity

I believe in the Holy Trinity, and I think even more in the Eastern variant (from where I live), that is the variant the Orthodox Church holds to.

Offline TomTorbeyns

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Re: New here
« Reply #151 on: January 06, 2015, 10:37:39 AM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

I think you have got it all wrong.
By saying that we are called to become Saints it really means that we will slowly cease to search for earthly pleasures and let Christ grow in us (hopefully to the point that his will is ours and the other way around, short story till we are saints).


You accuse me of mocking Christ without no right to do so.
I never spoke blasphemic in any of my previous posts in this thread or at all for that matter.
It is a very serious accusation to throw at someone and I think you should apologise to me for it.

Yes, His work is the key, He has done everything he needs for us to be saved.
I think we agree about that part.
What continue to baffle me is how you consider works and the fruit of the faithfuls to be unimportant and/ or uncalled for even though the scripture (which you are so found of) says differently.
I have even referred to scripture and it supports it.

Your way of thinking is a new way of thinking that came with Luther and I'll leave it for you to decide whether or not all Christians for the first 1500 year where totally wrong and Luther alone understood that we can behave as we like and totally ignore the parts of the Bible that we do not like.

Again it's your choice...

As far as I know, I did not accuse you of mocking Christ. (That was never my intent)

"Luther alone understood that we can behave as we like and totally ignore the parts of the Bible that we do not like." that part I totally do not like of Luther and I am not a follower of him. He asked, as many other roman catholics and protestants did, for his followers to kill the Jews etc. How could I ever agree with that?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: New here
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2015, 12:45:08 PM »
Tom--I think you are a person who is truly trying to find the truth about Christianity. Indeed, I have the feeling that the Holy Spirit has led us here. You have come to the right place. Now, the only thing that is needed is for you to digest the comments that many folks have made to your points. I am not saying that they were all complete and considerate answers; it is very hard to get those on the Internet. So, I am going to recommend that you do two other things.

1. Read some books that are from the Protestant perspective but are at the same time supportive of the traditional, orthodox Christianity (please note the small t).

Returning to First Century Theology [Kindle Edition] by L. Hudson Turner.

The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity by Andreas Köstenberger and Michael Kruger.

2. Attend an Orthodox Church, not once but many times, to include evening services and certainly the Divine Liturgy. Before you do this, I recommend reading the following.

The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy Ware).

"First Visit to an Orthodox Church: Twelve Things I Wish I'd Known"
by Frederica Mathewes-Green at http://www.antiochian.org/content/first-visit-orthodox-church-twelve-things-i-wish-id-known

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: New here
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2015, 01:16:10 PM »
Tom--I think you are a person who is truly trying to find the truth about Christianity. Indeed, I have the feeling that the Holy Spirit has led us here. You have come to the right place. Now, the only thing that is needed is for you to digest the comments that many folks have made to your points. I am not saying that they were all complete and considerate answers; it is very hard to get those on the Internet. So, I am going to recommend that you do two other things.

1. Read some books that are from the Protestant perspective but are at the same time supportive of the traditional, orthodox Christianity (please note the small t).

Returning to First Century Theology [Kindle Edition] by L. Hudson Turner.

The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity by Andreas Köstenberger and Michael Kruger.

2. Attend an Orthodox Church, not once but many times, to include evening services and certainly the Divine Liturgy. Before you do this, I recommend reading the following.

The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy Ware).

"First Visit to an Orthodox Church: Twelve Things I Wish I'd Known"
by Frederica Mathewes-Green at http://www.antiochian.org/content/first-visit-orthodox-church-twelve-things-i-wish-id-known


Good recommendations from Carl Kraeff. I am good friends with Dr. Layne Turner. He is not Orthodox, but his theology is leaning in that direction. I would also recommend the book Eastern Orthodox Theology by Daniel Clendenin. http://www.christianbook.com/eastern-orthodox-theology-ed-contemporary-reader/daniel-clendenin/9780801026515/pd/26516 He is not Orthodox, but he treats Orthodoxy fairly and his book was influential in my own journey to the Orthodox Church. And finally, at the risk of self-promotion, I will recommend my own book, MYSTERY and MEANING: Christian Philosophy & Orthodox Meditations.http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000365534/MYSTERY-and-MEANING.aspx One of the reasons I wrote the book was to address the theological and doctrinal issues that led me from evangelical Protestantism to Orthodoxy. If you can't afford the book but would be interested in reading it, please PM me and I will be glad to send you a PDF version at no cost.

May God be with you as you seek His perfect will.

Pray for me, a sinner.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
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Offline MarianCatholic

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Re: New here
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2015, 02:36:34 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

I think you have got it all wrong.
By saying that we are called to become Saints it really means that we will slowly cease to search for earthly pleasures and let Christ grow in us (hopefully to the point that his will is ours and the other way around, short story till we are saints).


You accuse me of mocking Christ without no right to do so.
I never spoke blasphemic in any of my previous posts in this thread or at all for that matter.
It is a very serious accusation to throw at someone and I think you should apologise to me for it.

Yes, His work is the key, He has done everything he needs for us to be saved.
I think we agree about that part.
What continue to baffle me is how you consider works and the fruit of the faithfuls to be unimportant and/ or uncalled for even though the scripture (which you are so found of) says differently.
I have even referred to scripture and it supports it.

Your way of thinking is a new way of thinking that came with Luther and I'll leave it for you to decide whether or not all Christians for the first 1500 year where totally wrong and Luther alone understood that we can behave as we like and totally ignore the parts of the Bible that we do not like.

Again it's your choice...

As far as I know, I did not accuse you of mocking Christ. (That was never my intent)

"Luther alone understood that we can behave as we like and totally ignore the parts of the Bible that we do not like." that part I totally do not like of Luther and I am not a follower of him. He asked, as many other roman catholics and protestants did, for his followers to kill the Jews etc. How could I ever agree with that?

I am happy to hear that, then I may have misread your post.
And sorry for jumping at your throat when you express views far from my own, I have an polemical instinct that become activated everytime I talk about faith with Protestants (and Orthodox I guess).
Just imagine how it is at home sometimes (my father are evangelical and my mother are Lutheran).
It is a warzone at times:p

As Carl Kraeff says digest what has been written here and don't feel attacked here, discussions at OC tend to be quite heated.


Your friend
- MC
Christ is Risen, Alleluia!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: New here
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2015, 03:29:03 PM »
Tom read this as well http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx

He writes as if he has had some serious fights with certain protestants.
Check this out also please:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

Oh and I know that most protestants, which are my friends are truly saved, since they have a genuine trust in Jesus Christ.

How may you know that they are saved?
They may profess some sort of faith in Christ, but who are you to dictate Christ?

What about the Gospel of Matthew 25:31-46, The sheep's and the goats, doesn't that passage indicate that we have to act like Christ to be his disciples?
We do not ''earn'' our salvation, but we live our lives according to the Lords will without any dualism (which is also considered Heresy).
Matthew 7:19 is an example of a tree who does not bear good fruit.

I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.
We are called to become Saints nothing less really.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.




I think there is plenty of Bible passages that support that salvation are given us by Christ sacrifice at the cross and by believing in him and if we truly believe in Him we will strive to live according to his will and behave as he wants.

We aren't saved until Christ at the final day say so...
The question mark isn't attached to his sacrifice, but to whether or not he look at us as his friends and disciples.


I agree with that part only and would say... If you did trust in His sacrifice on the cross and you did not mock it, your will show it through works.
But your works save you for 0%. His sacrifice saves 100%.

Also reply to "xOrthodox4Christx"

Well, that's simply unscriptural. Read St. James Epistle and Matthew 25. Christ is the only one who saves, but works are necessary as the Scriptures clearly show.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 03:29:30 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Nephi

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Re: New here
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2015, 05:35:18 PM »
Thread is locked.

Offline mike

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Re: New here
« Reply #157 on: January 08, 2015, 03:04:22 PM »
Are you Raylight?
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Offline Nephi

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Re: New here
« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2015, 01:08:11 PM »
Thread unlocked.

Online Asteriktos

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Re: New here
« Reply #159 on: January 12, 2015, 01:40:01 PM »
Salvation is a gift, but we are required to do something to accept it and let God make it real and empowered in our lives. Pretty much everyone agrees on this--Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox--and it's just a matter of what people think that response is. For many Protestants nowadays it is about repenting, confessing Jesus, accepting/affirming him as your saviour, etc. Yet repentance is a "work," as is saying a "sinner's prayer," "confessing with your mouth," and so on. Traditional Christians just insist that it is important to continue the process: to continue confessing, to continue acknowledging Jesus, to continue accepting the faith once delivered, etc. These are works insofar as they require effort. They are not works if by that we mean earning salvation. Such works--from the first moment of conversion, to every time afterward that your heart is converted and you die daily, till the end of your life--are not deeds done in an attempt to merit salvation. This relies too heavily on the idea of legalities: crime, pardon, sentencing, verdict, what the accused pleads, etc. Rather, while such a legalized perspective should not be thrown away, nonetheless it is more helpful here to think in terms of God purifying us through our cooperation with him.

Quote

 
Paul spoke of a "work of faith, and labour of love" (1 Thes. 1:3), and "the work of faith with power" (2 Thes. 1:11).  Salvation comes through the synergetic combination of faith and works together, while being "labourers together with God" (1 Cor. 3:9), and "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4).
 
We say we were saved (Tit. 3:5), we are being saved (Phil. 2:12-13), and we hope yet to be saved (Rom. 11:22; 1 Jn. 2:24-25). Past, present, and future. This proess works because of the gulf of sin, death, and materiality being bridged by God in the person of the God-man, Jesus Christ, through his birth (Rom. 8:1-6; Phil. 2:5-7; 1 Tim. 3:16); his life (Jn. 3:11; 8:14; 18:37), his death (Rom. 5:6; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1:23; 2:2), and his resurrection (Acts 2:24; 4:33; 17:2-3; Rom. 1:4: 14:9).

God having done this, and given us the grace and ability to cooperate with him (Acts 15:11; Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Tit. 2:11), we must now have faith and accept and desire and believe in God (Rom. 5:1; 10:9; Gal. 3:6; Phil. 3:9). And we do God's will, not to work our way to salvation, but because of our relationship with God: because of love (Jn. 14:21).
 
The author of Wisdom of Solomon likened the process to gold being burned in a furnace, with the impurities being melted away (Wis. 3:1-6), as did Peter (1 Pet. 1:6-7; 2:20; 3:14; 5:10), and the Psalmist (Ps. 12:6; 66:10), and the author of Sirach (Sir. 2:4-5), and the prophet Malachi (Mal. 3:3), and God speaking in Zechariah (Zech. 13:9). With each trial or temptation, we become that much more pure, until we are eventually "perfect and entire, wanting nothing".  Thus Paul said that it is "through much tribulation" that we "enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)