Author Topic: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?  (Read 11763 times)

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Offline IoanC

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2014, 09:48:44 AM »
My criticism is the same as for Christians from almost everywhere. We all get stuck too much in external things which causes us to be anachronistic and inefficient in the world -- a world next to a world instead of a world within a world.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2014, 09:44:30 PM »
There's a lot more spirit and genuine love for God than there is in ethnic Orthodoxy, except, American Christianity has no proper guidance or channel for that spirit and energy at all. Most of it is wasted, as I think the majority of American Christian adults don't spiritually mature beyond the point of a 14-16 year old Youth Group kid. They are children, simply put. And not in a good way. American Christianity is just one giant Evangelical Youth Group with adults who will never mature and reach their full godly potential. Even American Roman Catholicism isn't much different, with guitars during worship and RCs complaining when Mass goes over an hour.

Ultimately I see a huge source of great potential converts who would really benefit Orthodoxy. But alas, due to our own ethnic tensions, selfishness, and division, they will go to waste. It's a shame that apart from Alaska, when Orthodoxy came here we didn't come as a united front with the intention of evangelizing the continent. But we came here divided, broken, and somewhat selfish in that we only wanted to escape our problems at home an not evangelize the world around us.

I respect your opinion, and I agree with your assessment 80% of the time.

The other 10% is middle of the road.

The other 10% I'd completely disagree.

Christianity in America has many "flavors".  Most are kind of hollow and shallow.  These figures also span around EO Christianity, RC Christianity, Protestant and others in Christianity.

I do credit the EO and some RC for having depth to their liturgical practice, but they'd be in absolute serious error and delusion if they believe they have the market curbed on this.   It deals in commonality often and what people are use to.   There are incredibly deep and rich practice of faith in several other churches.

As far as charity of Christian churches and evangelism here in America, It's unfortunate, but protestant type of faiths often shine well over EO and RC.  I can say this with confidence having decades of time within the EO church and also witnessing Anabaptist charity.

But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2014, 02:12:46 PM »
There's a lot more spirit and genuine love for God than there is in ethnic Orthodoxy, except, American Christianity has no proper guidance or channel for that spirit and energy at all. Most of it is wasted, as I think the majority of American Christian adults don't spiritually mature beyond the point of a 14-16 year old Youth Group kid. They are children, simply put. And not in a good way. American Christianity is just one giant Evangelical Youth Group with adults who will never mature and reach their full godly potential. Even American Roman Catholicism isn't much different, with guitars during worship and RCs complaining when Mass goes over an hour.

Ultimately I see a huge source of great potential converts who would really benefit Orthodoxy. But alas, due to our own ethnic tensions, selfishness, and division, they will go to waste. It's a shame that apart from Alaska, when Orthodoxy came here we didn't come as a united front with the intention of evangelizing the continent. But we came here divided, broken, and somewhat selfish in that we only wanted to escape our problems at home an not evangelize the world around us.

I respect your opinion, and I agree with your assessment 80% of the time.

The other 10% is middle of the road.

The other 10% I'd completely disagree.

Christianity in America has many "flavors".  Most are kind of hollow and shallow.  These figures also span around EO Christianity, RC Christianity, Protestant and others in Christianity.

I do credit the EO and some RC for having depth to their liturgical practice, but they'd be in absolute serious error and delusion if they believe they have the market curbed on this.   It deals in commonality often and what people are use to.   There are incredibly deep and rich practice of faith in several other churches.

As far as charity of Christian churches and evangelism here in America, It's unfortunate, but protestant type of faiths often shine well over EO and RC.  I can say this with confidence having decades of time within the EO church and also witnessing Anabaptist charity.

But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.

That is arguably a big IF. I am more reminded of Christ's admonition in Matthew where he says:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2014, 11:25:30 PM »
There's a lot more spirit and genuine love for God than there is in ethnic Orthodoxy, except, American Christianity has no proper guidance or channel for that spirit and energy at all. Most of it is wasted, as I think the majority of American Christian adults don't spiritually mature beyond the point of a 14-16 year old Youth Group kid. They are children, simply put. And not in a good way. American Christianity is just one giant Evangelical Youth Group with adults who will never mature and reach their full godly potential. Even American Roman Catholicism isn't much different, with guitars during worship and RCs complaining when Mass goes over an hour.

Ultimately I see a huge source of great potential converts who would really benefit Orthodoxy. But alas, due to our own ethnic tensions, selfishness, and division, they will go to waste. It's a shame that apart from Alaska, when Orthodoxy came here we didn't come as a united front with the intention of evangelizing the continent. But we came here divided, broken, and somewhat selfish in that we only wanted to escape our problems at home an not evangelize the world around us.

I respect your opinion, and I agree with your assessment 80% of the time.

The other 10% is middle of the road.

The other 10% I'd completely disagree.

Christianity in America has many "flavors".  Most are kind of hollow and shallow.  These figures also span around EO Christianity, RC Christianity, Protestant and others in Christianity.

I do credit the EO and some RC for having depth to their liturgical practice, but they'd be in absolute serious error and delusion if they believe they have the market curbed on this.   It deals in commonality often and what people are use to.   There are incredibly deep and rich practice of faith in several other churches.

As far as charity of Christian churches and evangelism here in America, It's unfortunate, but protestant type of faiths often shine well over EO and RC.  I can say this with confidence having decades of time within the EO church and also witnessing Anabaptist charity.

But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.

That is arguably a big IF. I am more reminded of Christ's admonition in Matthew where he says:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."


IF is the biggest question of all. :)
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2014, 09:29:20 AM »
Quote
But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.
Getting hyper-emotional and spouting some prayer doesn't convert you to Christianity any more than eating a really good steak and saying you want to be a chef makes you Gordon Ramsay.

PP
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 09:29:31 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2014, 10:05:43 AM »
Quote
But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.
Getting hyper-emotional and spouting some prayer doesn't convert you to Christianity any more than eating a really good steak and saying you want to be a chef makes you Gordon Ramsay.

PP
What if I curse at everyone standing nearby? Does that get me a couple points closer?
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2014, 10:14:28 AM »
Quote
But overall, yes James, most churches are are kindergarten.    But if they bring people to Christ... I can't complain.
Getting hyper-emotional and spouting some prayer doesn't convert you to Christianity any more than eating a really good steak and saying you want to be a chef makes you Gordon Ramsay.

PP
What if I curse at everyone standing nearby? Does that get me a couple points closer?
Only if you follow it with "It's RAW!!!!!!!"

PP
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2014, 10:54:33 AM »
NVM.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 10:56:41 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2014, 11:58:39 AM »
Christianity, no matter which form, is always going to be imperfect no matter where and when it is practiced by its adherents. 

My biggest criticism of Christianity here in America is just how much it is less and less about Christ and the Gospel but more about what it means to be American.  Too many churches, both left and right, essentially try to make Jesus into a modern politician and use him as candidate to speak about political issues which have little to nothing to do with the Gospel He did preach.  Even Orthodoxy is not immune to this.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2014, 12:31:30 PM »
The very fact that there are somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 denominations, each one thinking they have a corner on truth and are based on the bible, tells you there is a huge problem.

I mean no disrespect to you, NanaDeborah, but can you tell us where you got that number please?
Thank you
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2014, 12:42:32 PM »
Gordon-Conwell Seminary, a well known evangelical seminiary, seems to place the number at 33,800 worldwide (back in 2007)

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

Quote
Email from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary "Global Christianity" to Ms. Shenandoah Brown, SFO (Secular Franciscan Order)
author of Lamp Unto My Feet to be published by PublishAmerica
Received 9/28/2007 11:17 a.m. MST

Hello Ms. Brown,

Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

"Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries."

More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. These lists are not exhaustive, as there are too many small denominations to list separately, but they should help give a clearer picture. Furthermore, the Southern Baptist Convention has over 40,000 congregations in the US alone; not to mention the Baptist General Conference, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, etc. So we are definitely not counting each congregation as its own denomination. We are also not lumping all Baptists into a single denomination, but counting each organization separately. I hope this information helps.

Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant
Center for the Study of Global Christianity

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail: <csgc@gcts.edu>

« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 12:44:00 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline NanaDeborah

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2014, 12:43:43 PM »
Quote
I mean no disrespect to you, NanaDeborah, but can you tell us where you got that number please?
Thank you

Good question, and I wish I could remember, so sorry.  Could have been Frank Schaeffer maybe?  Regardless, it is a LOT, and now they don't bother to even call it a denomination, anybody who wants to start a church can do so.

Here is a link below I admit I found and only scanned.  I don't want to argue the numbers with anyone, as I said above, and it may be impossible to prove anyway. Please forgive any inaccuracies.

The point is that all these divisions and separations have come about because each one thinks they have the truth according to the bible.  Obviously that cannot be true.


http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a120.htm
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Offline WPM

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2014, 02:20:25 PM »
Does it have any correlation to the National Day of Prayer? What about prayer in schools? etc.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2014, 03:24:07 PM »
Quote
I mean no disrespect to you, NanaDeborah, but can you tell us where you got that number please?
Thank you

Good question, and I wish I could remember, so sorry.  Could have been Frank Schaeffer maybe?  Regardless, it is a LOT, and now they don't bother to even call it a denomination, anybody who wants to start a church can do so.

Here is a link below I admit I found and only scanned.  I don't want to argue the numbers with anyone, as I said above, and it may be impossible to prove anyway. Please forgive any inaccuracies.

The point is that all these divisions and separations have come about because each one thinks they have the truth according to the bible.  Obviously that cannot be true.


http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a120.htm

Thank you NanaDeborah (and Trisagion) .  It is from what some call "The Barrett Numbers" I thought that might be the case.  Not to be difficult, but those numbers include every EO jurisdiction and RC by country and more.   They've been used, erroneously, at times as a put-down of Protestants in general or any group is that is not the Church that the person writing belongs to.

Also, mentions of them have tended to get bigger and bigger, from 22,000 to 25,000 to 30,000 to 40,000 etc etc.  I should do a forum search for earlier appearances when I have a bit of time.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 03:28:55 PM by Ebor »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2014, 03:32:45 PM »
I never heard the 40k number until I started hanging around this forum, but I have struggled with the seemingly infinitely wide river of Christianity ever since I was a child. It never made sense to me how people can believe everyone from Westboro Baptist to Benny Hinn all point to the Bible and explain why they are right, everyone else is wrong and why no Christian group until their particular group showed up on the scene had the right answers. Up until college, I honestly had no idea that Christianity even existed between the time of the Apostles and Martin Luther.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2014, 04:31:47 PM »
I never heard the 40k number until I started hanging around this forum, but I have struggled with the seemingly infinitely wide river of Christianity ever since I was a child. It never made sense to me how people can believe everyone from Westboro Baptist to Benny Hinn all point to the Bible and explain why they are right, everyone else is wrong and why no Christian group until their particular group showed up on the scene had the right answers. Up until college, I honestly had no idea that Christianity even existed between the time of the Apostles and Martin Luther.

There are a lot
1.2 billion RC's
820 million Protestants
275-300 million EO

I know the "flavors" vary, but in context, 2.3 billion profess Christ, which is good.

I wonder though how many are the Benny Hinn types.  The shallowness of those makes things tough.... It's almost absurd that they get so much money & TV time.  Sometimes I question if these types exist to usurp Christianity because of the ridiculous nature of them.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2014, 04:33:06 PM »
Arius professed Christ too. That messed up a lot of people unfortunately.  :(  Still, I get your point.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2014, 04:38:57 PM »
I never heard the 40k number until I started hanging around this forum, but I have struggled with the seemingly infinitely wide river of Christianity ever since I was a child. It never made sense to me how people can believe everyone from Westboro Baptist to Benny Hinn all point to the Bible and explain why they are right, everyone else is wrong and why no Christian group until their particular group showed up on the scene had the right answers. Up until college, I honestly had no idea that Christianity even existed between the time of the Apostles and Martin Luther.

There are a lot
1.2 billion RC's
820 million Protestants
275-300 million EO

I know the "flavors" vary, but in context, 2.3 billion profess Christ, which is good.

I wonder though how many are the Benny Hinn types.  The shallowness of those makes things tough.... It's almost absurd that they get so much money & TV time.  Sometimes I question if these types exist to usurp Christianity because of the ridiculous nature of them.

It's about comfort and feeling good.  A lot of people that believe in Christ will forsake him for comfort's sake.  Think about it:  if an all out persecution (in the US anyway) came about going after all who profess Christ, how many would save their own life? 
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Offline Kostya

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2014, 05:55:09 PM »
Quote
I'm not claiming to have more knowledge of or experience with Bible-thumpers as you do, but I think we can agree that nothing can be gained by sitting around in a circle, reading a verse, and then asking "what do you think this means?"

I have a lot of experience with Bible thumpers, having only recently come out from among them. (and the thumps on the head to prove it).  What you are describing is basically chaos, with every one making up different stuff, all claiming to hear it from God. The very fact that there are somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 denominations, each one thinking they have a corner on truth and are based on the bible, tells you there is a huge problem.

It's good to know what the Bible says, of course, but very hard if not impossible to refrain from interpreting what we read through the lens of our preconceived ideas.  I had to detox for quite a while and just could not read it.  I recently got an Orthodox study bible so the added features and notes are helping me read with a new perspective. 

I recently got an Orthodox Study Bible. It was given to me by my priest when I began catechism.

That's one thing that I like about Orthodoxy: it doesn't ignore the Bible. It promotes Bible reading and study. Reading the Bible is a good thing. Worshiping it is not. Neither is separating it from Tradition.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2014, 10:00:59 AM »
Quote
There are a lot
1.2 billion RC's
1 "denomination"
Quote
820 million Protestants
thousands of denominations, all believing differently
Quote
275-300 million EO
1 "denomination"

Quote
I know the "flavors" vary, but in context, 2.3 billion profess Christ, which is good.
I quoted the above not to bash, but to stress one thing. They all profess Christ, but which Christ?

The Christ that I believe is God (coincidentally, the same one that RC's believe as well) is most certainly NOT the same "Christ" as Mormons (which are usually grouped as Christians) and Jehovah's Witnesses, neither is it the same than the "Christ" of the 7th Day Adventists.

Just professing Christ is not enough. The "Christ" of Brigham Young is not the same Christ of Ignatius of Antioch. Which is why the "hey, we're all Christians, so we're all ok" can never work.

PP
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2014, 11:46:18 AM »
...

My biggest criticism of Christianity here in America is just how much it is less and less about Christ and the Gospel but more about what it means to be American.  Too many churches, both left and right, essentially try to make Jesus into a modern politician and use him as candidate to speak about political issues which have little to nothing to do with the Gospel He did preach.  Even Orthodoxy is not immune to this.

+1

This.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2014, 11:53:46 AM »
That's how you define this, Primuspilus.  But the Barrett numbers, which are what the count is based on, do not.

I would also suggest that "all believing differently" is not true. There is common ground with such things as the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus and more.  Yes, there are outliers and disagreements on somethings. But it's not that there is no commonality.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2014, 12:09:56 PM »
Yet, nowadays I find another question to be more relevant. Do people care about criticism? The one thing you don't want to do nowadays is even remotely suggest that someone might be doing something wrong. :)

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2014, 01:15:23 PM »
Crap. fire drill....Ill respond later.
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Offline RobS

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2014, 08:19:21 PM »
Things I wish American Christianity (including American Orthodoxy) would stop doing:

- demonizing Muslims.

Yes, because muslims are doing that quite well without the evangelicals helping them.
It's only a matter of time until Muslims make their peace with modernity, just like Jews and Christians did with the Enlightenment (which interestingly enough bettered both religion and society). This is why you see a rise of fundamentalism in those countries that are underdeveloped; modernity threatens Islam along with the very identity of being Muslim that is called into question. This is happening in America with the religious right, who are clamorous with their exclusion and literalism. This is always an indicator of vulnerability and collapse.
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Offline RobS

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2014, 08:46:46 PM »
Christianity, no matter which form, is always going to be imperfect no matter where and when it is practiced by its adherents. 
And Christianity must be, because it refers to a narrative text which is existential (narratives are really a fundamental way in which we find meaning in life). So yes the Gospels aren't history nor is it a biography, nor doctrines or orthodox thoughts about God. And really, it's not about God at all. Rather its about who we are and who we might want to be.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2014, 09:51:06 PM »
Personal salvation taking priority over goodness towards others.

Trying to make church and scripture compatible with modern politics ("like, God said love thy neighbor, so we should accept everyone no matter what!") although I guess that's more of an atheist card.

Blind support of existence of Israel.

No respect towards history of church or faith (or history in general).

Love of money.

Offline RobS

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2014, 10:20:37 PM »
No respect towards history of church or faith (or history in general).
Respect of history? We can't even observe history. It's just an interpretation and has no continuity.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2014, 11:19:15 PM »
It never made sense to me how people can believe everyone from Westboro Baptist to Benny Hinn all point to the Bible and explain why they are right, everyone else is wrong and why no Christian group until their particular group showed up on the scene had the right answers. Up until college, I honestly had no idea that Christianity even existed between the time of the Apostles and Martin Luther.

Let me clarify: Any possible mode of understanding the world which can prevail for over 2000 years and all over the globe has to be sufficiently open to change to accommodate nearly any claim.

The anxiety over this fact is the reason for those who need to render Christianity into some single interpretive frame.

You can understand the red letter Christians and the truly red letter Christians they want some solid truth. Imagine trying to reconcile all the writings of the fathers, mothers, scripture, acts of the Church, etc. It would drive you mad. And yet some even here think they have. Based on how they post, they just might be correct.

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2014, 12:23:41 AM »
No respect towards history of church or faith (or history in general).
Respect of history? We can't even observe history. It's just an interpretation and has no continuity.

Your posts are interesting, but this statement is too vague. What about Mars Bars (from the USofA perspective)? It is history but still continues. I am probably missing something.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2014, 12:32:42 AM »
It never made sense to me how people can believe everyone from Westboro Baptist to Benny Hinn all point to the Bible and explain why they are right, everyone else is wrong and why no Christian group until their particular group showed up on the scene had the right answers. Up until college, I honestly had no idea that Christianity even existed between the time of the Apostles and Martin Luther.

Let me clarify: Any possible mode of understanding the world which can prevail for over 2000 years and all over the globe has to be sufficiently open to change to accommodate nearly any claim.

The anxiety over this fact is the reason for those who need to render Christianity into some single interpretive frame.

You can understand the red letter Christians and the truly red letter Christians they want some solid truth. Imagine trying to reconcile all the writings of the fathers, mothers, scripture, acts of the Church, etc. It would drive you mad. And yet some even here think they have. Based on how they post, they just might be correct.
The accommodationist movement in Christianity is a relatively recent trend. Christianity became a global religion well before it started including all sorts of absurd claims in its belief system. For much of its history, such people were demonized and resulted in persecution or religious war.
God bless!

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2014, 07:13:30 PM »
No respect towards history of church or faith (or history in general).
Respect of history? We can't even observe history. It's just an interpretation and has no continuity.

Your posts are interesting, but this statement is too vague. What about Mars Bars (from the USofA perspective)? It is history but still continues. I am probably missing something.


I'm sorry for the vagueness, allow me to poorly elaborate. Almost all of history is discourse, because history is in a category of texts (like epic poems, novels, and so on). And since texts are texts they are never real and never happen. So no matter how impassioned someone insists on Cleopatra is "real", and how much of her biographical information is precise and whatever the evidence to support it, you will NEVER produce a woman named Cleopatra. The only evidence that is provided, however, is the intense relationship one has with such a certain discourse. So since Cleopatra is textual, then so is Jesus. He is a character in the narratives we tell, but what matters is how you take those narratives and what your relationship is to the narrative, not if Jesus is a person you go to the movies with. You begin to see how silly something like the Jesus Seminar really is, since his historicity is textual. And as to there being no continuity, well that is just the process of forming history to make it useful to us in the present. Its just a whole lot of stuff that happened.

But what you need to be careful of, is not to be ensnared by interpreting those texts with life. You could take any biographical text on Obama, for example, but mistakenly assert that's the living breathing Obama. Why is that a mistake? Because Obama isn't a text but rather a living person. And no text is. Words on a page aren't the things they refer to because discourse isn't life. And about the history of "Mars Bars"? All I could give you is more discourse and more signs that refer to signs and so on. We are stuck with language. What it means to be human is we have experiences and the only way we can even think about those experiences is with language.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 07:13:43 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2014, 07:36:59 PM »
But what you need to be careful of, is not to be ensnared by interpreting those texts with life. You could take any biographical text on Obama, for example, but mistakenly assert that's the living breathing Obama. Why is that a mistake? Because Obama isn't a text but rather a living person. And no text is. Words on a page aren't the things they refer to because discourse isn't life.

That's actually a pretty good argument against biblicism and in favor of the need for Church tradition.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2014, 08:04:07 PM »
No respect towards history of church or faith (or history in general).
Respect of history? We can't even observe history. It's just an interpretation and has no continuity.

I would agree, to some extent. History is interpretation of record. It isn't solely interpretation, though interpretation is required to understand it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 08:05:36 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2014, 01:50:56 AM »
Had the joy of having some Evo tv on in the background while doing some chores today.

Things I found delightful.

One program had their biblical expert say: Nowadays, people say, 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I am just anti-Zionist or anti-the State of Israel. Well, the truth is, if you are anti-Zionist or against the State of Israel, you are not just anti-Semitic, you are anti-God.'

The cooking program had this line:

The frittata is very forgiving when you bake it. Just like our Lord!

This line was repeated a few dozen times during the science program:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

The last reminded me of the nonsense Isa posts and I realized I hadn't heard for him in a while, which was an additional plus.

So sorry, to forever be the contrarian, but I love American Christianity.

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2014, 02:09:51 AM »
Had the joy of having some Evo tv on in the background while doing some chores today.

Things I found delightful.

One program had their biblical expert say: Nowadays, people say, 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I am just anti-Zionist or anti-the State of Israel. Well, the truth is, if you are anti-Zionist or against the State of Israel, you are not just anti-Semitic, you are anti-God.'

The cooking program had this line:

The frittata is very forgiving when you bake it. Just like our Lord!

This line was repeated a few dozen times during the science program:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

The last reminded me of the nonsense Isa posts and I realized I hadn't heard for him in a while, which was an additional plus.

So sorry, to forever be the contrarian, but I love American Christianity.

I'll gladly take this classic contemporary evo whatnot over RHE's latest venture:

http://www.theworkofthepeople.com/

Quote
We are an independent ecumenical platform that produces and publishes multimedia to stir imagination, spark discussion and move people toward discovery and transformation.

Seeing and living in God's alternative narrative of abundance and freedom often requires a holy disruption that gets us to an altered perspective. The Work Of The People strives to be a that holy disruption and prophetic witness that creates multimedia as a daring proclamation and moves people toward growth and divine vocation.

By creating the only Visual Liturgy library on the planet and gathering the wisdom and insight of an unparalleled collection of theologians and practitioners, The Work Of The People have become trusted creators of content that doesn't decorate, but declares; and curators of a unique cloud of witnesses who challenge and invite us to live upside down and abundant lives. 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 02:11:43 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2014, 02:14:29 AM »
Had the joy of having some Evo tv on in the background while doing some chores today.

Things I found delightful.

One program had their biblical expert say: Nowadays, people say, 'I'm not anti-Semitic, I am just anti-Zionist or anti-the State of Israel. Well, the truth is, if you are anti-Zionist or against the State of Israel, you are not just anti-Semitic, you are anti-God.'

The cooking program had this line:

The frittata is very forgiving when you bake it. Just like our Lord!

This line was repeated a few dozen times during the science program:

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

The last reminded me of the nonsense Isa posts and I realized I hadn't heard for him in a while, which was an additional plus.

So sorry, to forever be the contrarian, but I love American Christianity.

I'll gladly take this classic contemporary evo whatnot over RHE's latest venture:

http://www.theworkofthepeople.com/

Quote
We are an independent ecumenical platform that produces and publishes multimedia to stir imagination, spark discussion and move people toward discovery and transformation.

Seeing and living in God's alternative narrative of abundance and freedom often requires a holy disruption that gets us to an altered perspective. The Work Of The People strives to be a that holy disruption and prophetic witness that creates multimedia as a daring proclamation and moves people toward growth and divine vocation.

By creating the only Visual Liturgy library on the planet and gathering the wisdom and insight of an unparalleled collection of theologians and practitioners, The Work Of The People have become trusted creators of content that doesn't decorate, but declares; and curators of a unique cloud of witnesses who challenge and invite us to live upside down and abundant lives. 

Work of the people? She ruins Communism and Christianity at once!

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2014, 02:17:02 AM »
You have to pay for this tripe? Back to Living Fire TV!

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2014, 02:19:30 AM »
You have to pay for this tripe? Back to Living Fire TV!

Here's the best part: The highest package gets you unlimited streaming, but only 20 downloads per month. So you can give them 250$ a year and still have to pay to download shane claiborne giving a Forrest Gump makeup tutorial or whatever.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 02:20:05 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christianity in America - What is your criticism of it and why?
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2014, 02:39:48 AM »
You have to pay for this tripe? Back to Living Fire TV!

Here's the best part: The highest package gets you unlimited streaming, but only 20 downloads per month. So you can give them 250$ a year and still have to pay to download shane claiborne giving a Forrest Gump makeup tutorial or whatever.

Had to bail after watching one decent clip of Brueggemann saying Christians should be poor and give stuff away, capitalism is bad, obvious stuff. Of course the camera work couldn't be steady, I had to watch someone creatively shake the camera.

Then after 4 minutes of the recovery and spirituality bundle I nearly had to drink, something I've not done in over seven years. Lotsa hipsters voice over about the mystery of everything while showing poverty and addiction pr0n.

Oh, we have to listen to everyone's stories according to guys with beards. Sounds like hell.