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Author Topic: Anti-Western Orthodoxy  (Read 29076 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kizzy
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« Reply #270 on: April 13, 2005, 11:32:06 PM »



Perhaps we should be a little less fearful that we are compromising our faith, and show confidence that our faith will hold up and draw those outside to the full communion within.

Perfect! One cannot bring people in if we  turn our backs to them and  lock the world out right?!

In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #271 on: April 14, 2005, 11:40:46 AM »

I read last year, and it might have been on these boards or at Beliefnet, that when the Pope and EP prayed the creed together it was in Greek and even RC's do not include the filioque when they pray it in Greek
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« Reply #272 on: April 14, 2005, 11:45:06 AM »

Kizzy
how did you come to choose St. Geneive of Paris for your post block?
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« Reply #273 on: April 14, 2005, 11:57:09 AM »

I read last year, and it might have been on these boards or at Beliefnet, that when the Pope and EP prayed the creed together it was in Greek and even RC's do not include the filioque when they pray it in Greek

The first real concession Roman Catholics have ever made in their dialogue with the Orthodox. Interesting.
Thanks Brother Aidan. I wonder what Humble Aidan of Lindisfarne would say about what is going on right now?
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« Reply #274 on: April 14, 2005, 12:22:40 PM »



The first real concession Roman Catholics have ever made in their dialogue with the Orthodox. Interesting.
Thanks Brother Aidan.

They have also returned some pilfered relics in the recent past.  I think another major concession(although probably not advertised as such) is the fact that despite what many I'm sure would like to see, no Uniate patriarchate has been raised in Ukraine.  I think at least some on the other side have realized they need to address our concerns and treat us like equals, and that is a change and a concession in and of itself.

Who knows what will happen to the Catholic Church Sabbas.  Looking at the opinion polls that have come out since the Pope's death surveying lay attitudes, I think they are facing some choppy waters.  I think we should be visible and vocal about making our case to them.  One thing I think back to is the failed council of Florence when the Byzantines with their backs against the wall were ready to consent (and did) to anything.  St. Mark Eugenikos went ready to debate the issues and I would assume if the Latins had taken to heart what he said, he would have accepted them back.  I think Florence is a double sided lesson for us, both in the need to engage them, and to trust that a false union will not be accepted.

Them's my two drachmas!
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« Reply #275 on: April 14, 2005, 12:33:28 PM »

I read last year, and it might have been on these boards or at Beliefnet, that when the Pope and EP prayed the creed together it was in Greek and even RC's do not include the filioque when they pray it in Greek

This is true. However, given that most of their praying in Greek is IN Greece itself, this are often criticized as just another veiled attempt at proselytizing by masking a difference. I don't know if they deserve that charge, but it is made often.
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« Reply #276 on: April 14, 2005, 12:47:22 PM »

This is true. However, given that most of their praying in Greek is IN Greece itself, this are often criticized as just another veiled attempt at proselytizing by masking a difference. I don't know if they deserve that charge, but it is made often. 

Of course, it could be said that by not reciting the filioque when they read the creed in Greek, it shows that they do not really consider it a dogmatic point; otherwise the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed could not be read without it in their churches.  While they outwardly state that the filioque is still essential, their actions betray a different thought (maybe; of course, maybe I'm reading too much into it....)
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« Reply #277 on: April 14, 2005, 01:13:26 PM »

Sabbas, St. Aidan was an evangelist at heart and I think he would reach out in a spirit of love, butt without compromising one iota
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« Reply #278 on: April 14, 2005, 01:18:16 PM »

I think I also read that the equivalent clause of the filioque in Greek ,if it were added, would almost say that the Holy spirit is derived from the  Son and even the Latins will not go that far in thier undestanding of the filioque and that is the reason they don't include the clause in Greek. But this is an 11 month memory of a board post and also I am no expert in Greek or Latin. Maybe some of the seminarians can help us out here.
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« Reply #279 on: April 14, 2005, 01:51:16 PM »

I think I also read that the equivalent clause of the filioque in Greek ,if it were added, would almost say that the Holy spirit is derived from the Son and even the Latins will not go that far in thier undestanding of the filioque and that is the reason they don't include the clause in Greek. But this is an 11 month memory of a board post and also I am no expert in Greek or Latin. 

I haven't looked at the proposed language, but I have heard from a professor of mine that this would possibly be the case; the differences in the theological precision between Latin and Greek can be quite vast at times (with advantages and disadvantages in both directions).  That is why one will often see great (great as in large) theological debates between East and West that are not easily resolved because you had a trend where the theologians on either side might have some working knowledge of the others' language, but may not have a full enough understanding of said language to comprehend the full impact (connotation with the denotation) of the theological terms.

Maybe some of the seminarians can help us out here.   

I appreciate the honor you bestow upon us... but many in the ranks of the seminarians are quite ignorant (as I can be on most issues).  But, above all else, pray that God guide our ministries, whether ordained or not, to His ends, not our own.
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« Reply #280 on: April 14, 2005, 01:54:12 PM »

St. Aidan was an evangelist at heart

As we all should be.  Holy Father Aidan pray for us!
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« Reply #281 on: April 14, 2005, 10:40:54 PM »

Kizzy
how did you come to choose St. Geneive of Paris for your post block?

I find her story inspiring... an Orthodox Saint, devoted to God from childhood, who ministered to the flocks in the western world- Paris no less-  revered by all, but especially the women...protectress of Paris...where she performed miracles....and probably not as  well known an Orthodox Saint ....

As a side bar... in the musical "Camelot" the Lady Guenevere prays to St. Genevieve in a song...

In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #282 on: April 15, 2005, 12:03:28 PM »

Thanks Kizzy!

As you might guess by my board name, I have great affection for pre-schism western saints: Aidan of Lindesfarne, Columba of Iona, Patrick of Ireland, Brigid, Finnan, Brendan, Columbanus, Martin I (bishop of Rome who called the first Lateran council, at which Gregory Palamas attended and was influential), Monica (regardless of what one thinks of Augustine, she faithfully prayed for her wayward son for 21 years). Geneieve is also one I greatly adore.

Lest anyone get concerned, I also pray to and venerate eastern saints and most of my icons are of eastern saints.
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« Reply #283 on: April 15, 2005, 12:04:28 PM »

Cool side point about Camelot!
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« Reply #284 on: April 15, 2005, 01:22:20 PM »

As you might guess by my board name, I have great affection for pre-schism western saints: Aidan of Lindesfarne, Columba of Iona, Patrick of Ireland, Brigid, Finnan, Brendan, Columbanus, Martin I (bishop of Rome who called the first Lateran council, at which Gregory Palamas attended and was influential), Monica (regardless of what one thinks of Augustine, she faithfully prayed for her wayward son for 21 years). Geneieve is also one I greatly adore.

St. Martin I was pope from 649 to 655, but St. Gregory Palamas lived in the 14th century. Also, Martin I did hold a council at the Lateran, but Lateran I usually refers to the council of 1123.
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« Reply #285 on: April 15, 2005, 08:17:29 PM »

Thanks Kizzy!

As you might guess by my board name, I have great affection for pre-schism western saints: Aidan of Lindesfarne, Columba of Iona, Patrick of Ireland, Brigid, Finnan, Brendan, Columbanus, Martin I (bishop of Rome who called the first Lateran council, at which Gregory Palamas attended and was influential), Monica (regardless of what one thinks of Augustine, she faithfully prayed for her wayward son for 21 years). Geneieve is also one I greatly adore.

Lest anyone get concerned, I also pray to and venerate eastern saints and most of my icons are of eastern saints.


St. Martin I was pope from 649 to 655, but St. Gregory Palamas lived in the 14th century.  Also, Martin I did hold a council at the Lateran, but Lateran I usually refers to the council of 1123.

Brother Aidan I believe your were thinking of St.Maximos the Confessor instead of St.Gregory Palamas.

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Lest anyone get concerned, I also pray to and venerate eastern saints and most of my icons are of eastern saints.

Saints are Saints! I usually do not use the label Eastern or Western preferring Greek, Italian, Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, etc. It really helps you to remove the false dichotomy of believing there is some solid wall that separates all Saints East of Germany and Italy from all Saints West of Eastern Europe.
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« Reply #286 on: April 15, 2005, 10:59:16 PM »

Thanks Kizzy!

As you might guess by my board name, I have great affection for pre-schism western saints: Aidan of Lindesfarne, Columba of Iona, Patrick of Ireland, Brigid, Finnan, Brendan, Columbanus, Martin I (bishop of Rome who called the first Lateran council, at which Gregory Palamas attended and was influential), Monica (regardless of what one thinks of Augustine, she faithfully prayed for her wayward son for 21 years). Geneieve is also one I greatly adore.

Lest anyone get concerned, I also pray to and venerate eastern saints and most of my icons are of eastern saints.

Do yo know Brother Aiden if  the feast days of pre-schism saints are celebrated in any Orthodox denomination? Do you know of churches dedicated to these saints? Is it only the Western Rite churches??  Think it would further  the church overall to use these names for churches in all of the different Orthodox groups.. I have never seen an EO  church here in America dedicated to any of these saints...

in XC, Kizzy

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« Reply #287 on: April 15, 2005, 11:35:29 PM »

While usually not observed by the Eastern Orthodox Typicas, which primarily focus on Saints from their Jurisdictions and  really Great Saints from the orther Patriarchates, Preschism Orthodox Saints of the West are often observed by those who have them as their patronal name saints (I can think of several by the name of  Aidan, Patrick or Patricia that are observed in my AOA parish on their Feast days). They also often serve the Artoclasia/Service of Five Loaves or Moliebens in honor of their Western Patronal saint.  I doubt you will find many Eastern Orthodox Churches that will be called by a Western Saint except perhaps in France, England nad perhaps some in the US or Canada as they seek to recognize their Western Orthodox Heritage.  Of course one would expect to see in the Western Rite Orthodox Churches names that could include a Western Patronal Saint, however most of them have stuck to the Apostles for the most part (St. Luke the Evangelist, St Peters the Apostle. St. Matthew, etc), I have seen some of the small struggling  Western Rite Missions take the name of some of the Irish saints however the larger parishes seem to stick to mainline Saints like the Apostles.

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« Reply #288 on: April 16, 2005, 12:50:43 PM »

While usually not observed by the Eastern Orthodox Typicas, which primarily focus on Saints from their Jurisdictions and really Great Saints from the orther Patriarchates, Preschism Orthodox Saints of the West are often observed by those who have them as their patronal name saints (I can think of several by the name of Aidan, Patrick or Patricia that are observed in my AOA parish on their Feast days). They also often serve the Artoclasia/Service of Five Loaves or Moliebens in honor of their Western Patronal saint. I doubt you will find many Eastern Orthodox Churches that will be called by a Western Saint except perhaps in France, England nad perhaps some in the US or Canada as they seek to recognize their Western Orthodox Heritage. Of course one would expect to see in the Western Rite Orthodox Churches names that could include a Western Patronal Saint, however most of them have stuck to the Apostles for the most part (St. Luke the Evangelist, St Peters the Apostle. St. Matthew, etc), I have seen some of the small struggling Western Rite Missions take the name of some of the Irish saints however the larger parishes seem to stick to mainline Saints like the Apostles.

In Christ,
Thomas

 Thanks Thomas... Would be interesting to name the next EO cathedral St. Patricks' eh??

In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #289 on: April 19, 2005, 03:50:59 AM »

Do yo know Brother Aiden if the feast days of pre-schism saints are celebrated in any Orthodox denomination? Do you know of churches dedicated to these saints? 

Well, although I'm not Aiden, I could tell you that often we will celebrate pre-schism Western saints here at the Seminary - we have a relic of St. Ambrose of Milan (which is fragrant), and we do celebrate St. Patrick's day here as well (actually, we do a mini "Orthdoox parade" - carrying his icon around the Administration building while chanting hymns and playing Irish music out of someone's car... some of the kids on campus asked us what we were doing, and someone explained to them that we shouldn't allow the secular people to hold an abomination of a parade for a great saint of our Church, and not honor him in our own way).
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« Reply #290 on: April 19, 2005, 04:40:17 AM »

Kizzy,

There's a St. Felix and St. Edmund (ROCOR) Orthodox Church in England and the priest there has produced a calendar of western saints. I don't know how accepted this is in ROCOR in general, though. You can find their website here:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm

You can also find a ROCOR monastery in England that holds the relics of St. Edmund the Martyr (I think, called the St. Edmund Brotherhood), who was the original English patron saint.

These follow the eastern, not western, rite but I'm not sure how commonly other jurisdictions here celebrate western saints. All jurisdictions appear to celebrate some, though, even if they aren't necessarily the most famous ones - I've seen St. Tatiana, for instance, a martyr in Rome in both the Greek and Romanian calendars. It does seem to be fairly inconsistent, however.

James
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« Reply #291 on: April 19, 2005, 09:48:19 AM »

Well as one who has a Western Saint in an Eastern Rite Church I can say that our priest makes an effort to show the catholicity of Orthodoxy by having icons of western saints along with eastern saints, we have a relic of St. Patrick, and he commemorates our patron saints if a service falls on his nameday. It's not alot but I like it well enough.
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« Reply #292 on: April 19, 2005, 11:38:50 AM »

Sabbas and James2
thanks for the corrections on St. Maximos the Confessor (that was who I meant; don't ask why I said St. Gregory Palamas - I must have been reading something about him recently) and for pointing out that Martin's Lateran Council should not be notated as 1
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« Reply #293 on: April 19, 2005, 11:43:33 AM »

Kizzy
I guess the subsequent posts answered your question
I too look forward to one day attending liturgy in an eastern rite orthodox church, named St. Aidan's or St. Brigids, etc., along with St. Athansius' or Saints Cyril and Methodius
We are the eastern church in the west and should recognize our western forebearers -  as Sabbas said, saints are saints
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« Reply #294 on: May 10, 2005, 11:41:18 AM »

I feel Orthodoxy, as a product of a schism with the West, is inherently anti-western. Not in any aggresive sense but certainly, that two seperate histories exist here means something. Contemporary western society on the other hand does have many facets that are anti-Orthodox, and in some cases, incredibly aggresive or counter to Orthodox culture.
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« Reply #295 on: May 10, 2005, 03:16:50 PM »

I feel Orthodoxy, as a product of a schism with the West, is inherently anti-western. Not in any aggresive sense but certainly, that two seperate histories exist here means something. Contemporary western society on the other hand does have many facets that are anti-Orthodox, and in some cases, incredibly aggresive or counter to Orthodox culture.

It is interesting.. I just came out of a business meetiing where we were reviewing product communication on a topic for different countries around the globe  and the subject came up on how to communicate the same product statement  in the different countries, when there are not words that communicate the exact same thing....or a common culture in which the statement is relevant... so sometimes the statement must be modified to be made relevant for the different people....  So here we are in the 21st century still struggling with finding a way to communicate one thing to diverse cultures East and West and it is incredibly difficult.... requiring repeated testing with the people to determine if what they understand is what we are trying to say.... I fundamentally believe that the differences that arose between East and West in the first thousand years of the church are simply due to the same phenomenon... only more exaggerated because the written word was not a publicly promoted phenomenon (no printing press, and only a few could read and write ), no Babelfish computer engine to translate, no testing process to determine what is the understanding...  At the end of the day, the split came about due to communication  issues and lack of a common culture between the East and West. 

In XC, Kizzy 

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« Reply #296 on: May 10, 2005, 07:12:52 PM »

I feel Orthodoxy, as a product of a schism with the West, is inherently anti-western. Not in any aggresive sense but certainly, that two seperate histories exist here means something. Contemporary western society on the other hand does have many facets that are anti-Orthodox, and in some cases, incredibly aggresive or counter to Orthodox culture.

Dear Anachronist,

You think that there is only on "Orthodox culture-+? I don’t.

There are many "separate histories" in Orthodox history and they did not end up in schisms. They are all in a union inside a timeless (non-historical) eschatological frame. (by the way, just look at the multiformity of Orthodox Church all over the world and to the homomorphy of the Catholic church all over the world - this is mainly because in Orthodox Church each bishop has the powers of the Pope-except from the papal infallibility - but in Vatican church there is only one Pope)

I think that in the west (I mean the French and German Latin authority over Europe that invented Vatican as we know it since then) the schism was exactly this denial of the timeless eschatological frame.

We can see this historical behaviour of past time in current Pax-americana “religion” that is the master ideology today.

If the schism had not happened then and if there was today one united church, with no separate Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox churches, I think that the pax-americana religion/ideology would have invented a “Vatican” of its own in order to get rid of the annoying non-historical eschatological frame in which “pax-americana” has no place to stand.

By “pax-americana” I am not referring to the USA as a country or as a political system but I am referring to the reality of being the only super-power on Earth. Today this reality is substantiated from USA. In the years of the schism, it was substantiated by the Franco-Latin Kingdom in Europe.

Obviously today, after the schism, there is no need for anyone to invent “a new schism”, because the original one gave the opportunity to countless of other separate churches to be born and to follow the example of Vatican.

It’s exactly like the original sin of Adam, committed once made an example to follow.

As of your answer that "Orthodoxy, as a product of a schism with the West, is inherently anti-western" I think that you are right in the context that you said that, but you are wrong in the real nature of things.

Orthodoxy is not a product of the schism, neither the Vatican is. The schism was not the origin of products but the schism itself was a product.

Being the Church in a non-historical timeless eschatological frame means that whatever life is being lived from Her members on earth, their life have a justification found in a future that is not “our future” but the Future that Christ, the Father, and the Spirit already live as timeless Eternity. So if I, as a member of the Church, find a fellow man in slavery I am not obliged to free him because his freedom has no effect to the non-historical timeless eschatological frame as long as he can also participate in it as a slave. There are no boundaries or restrictions on who can participate in Church but his own will to do so. Now, by that I do not mean that slavery is accepted as a natural human condition, or that we must be careless for human suffering and pain. No. The point is that the spiritual law in Church has a reverse logic: as a member of the Church, I am eager to free the slave from his bonds and to heal the suffering and the pain of my fellow man because his slavery, his suffering, his pain is mine under the union of the non-historical timeless eschatological frame of the Church that we both potentialy share. In this context I freely choose to suffer myself in order to make good to the fellow man.    

Now, for a super-power (and for its leadership) this interest for the freedom of others and for the welfare of others has a meaning only if is compatible with its own timetable: for a super-power the timetable contains only one thing, to become stronger and wealthier. It is unthinkable to accept personal weakness or depletion of wealth. So for a super-power the existence of the non-historical timeless eschatological frame of the Church is the most annoying issue as it introduces a self denial “commandment” that it can not be accepting at all.

The replacement of the non-historical Church with a historical church as the absolute substitute, is the answer for the super-power in order to keep the prospect of being super power in the future. So before the time of the schism Franco-Latin Kingdom of Europe invented the “Vatican” church, which is exactly this kind of substitute.

The schism was the product of this invention, and it was not actually a separation from the Church, but the invention of a new historical “religion”. Of course according to Vatican theology there is a perspective of a “future” eschatological frame but it has only a historical timeframe that is compatible with the timetable of the earthly super-power. This is why the Catholic church has a past of religion wars and human's rights supression "in the name of Christ".

In this context Orthodox is not “inherently anti-western”. The west is caged in a historical frame and the East is living in a non-historical frame. The “anti-whatever” can only exist in a historical frame. The non-historical frame can only be expressed through affirmations.
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« Reply #297 on: May 10, 2005, 07:38:38 PM »

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The replacement of the non-historical Church with a historical church as the absolute substitute, is the answer for the super-power in order to keep the prospect of being super power in the future. So before the time of the schism Franco-Latin Kingdom of Europe invented the “Vatican” church, which is exactly this kind of substitute.

The schism was the product of this invention, and it was not actually a separation from the Church, but the invention of a new historical “religion”. Of course according to Vatican theology there is a perspective of a “future” eschatological frame but it has only a historical timeframe that is compatible with the timetable of the earthly super-power. This is why the Catholic church has a past of religion wars and human's rights supression "in the name of Christ".

In this context Orthodox is not “inherently anti-western”. The west is caged in a historical frame and the East is living in a non-historical frame. The “anti-whatever” can only exist in a historical frame. The non-historical frame can only be expressed through affirmations.
This is an excellent point Ipap! The Vatican eventually became a very earthly power with its own kingdom(Papal States) after the schism. When a bishop says, "I am Caesar, I am Emperor!" and has endless statues of himself commissioned you know something is wrong!
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www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
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