OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 21, 2014, 04:35:05 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 666 the Number of the Beast  (Read 10377 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Saint Iaint
This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Once Delivered
Posts: 625


The Truth Shall Be Reviled


WWW
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2010, 03:24:46 AM »

Quote from: Nazarene
"Like what (evidence is there)?"

That's my point... there isn't any that I know of. But neither is there any evidence for your assertions .

Quote
"So then tell me how the Fathers got χξϛ to equal 666? Cause as far as I know the only way that could've happened if they (as John said) "calculated" the values of the letters. χ (600) + ξ (60) + ϛ (6) = 666. John wrote χξϛ not ϛϛϛ, so therefore the total value (for the theory to qualify as a realistic possibility) must equal 666 not 18, so this immediately rules out your Star of David theory."

You're still adding 6+6+6 to get 18... Why? There are no addition symbols (+) in the Seal of Solomon! I can see three sixes... Again, without your interpolated addition symbols, a 6 beside a 6 beside another 6 reads: six hundred and sixty-six. So drop the '18' thing already.

Quote
"Actually no, believe it or not no legitimate Jewish text ever mentions the Maagen David, not even the Zohar or Rashi."

The 'Encyclopaedia Judaica mentions it:

“In Arab sources the hexagram…was widely used under the designation “seal of Solomon,” a term which was also taken over by many Jewish groups…It is not clear in which period the hexagram was engraved on the seal or ring of Solomon, mentioned in the Talmud (Git.68a-b) as a sign of his dominion over the demons instead of the name of God, which originally appeared…

In Arabic magic the “seal of Solomon” was widely used, but at first it’s use in Jewish circles was restricted to relatively rare cases. Even then, the hexagram and pentagram were easily interchangeable and the name was applied to both figures.” 

“Between 1300 and 1700 the two terms shield of David and seal of Solomon, are used indiscriminately, predominately in magical texts…

(Encyclopaedia Judaica; 1972 Edition, Article: Magen David)


As for the remainder of your reply... Whatever makes you feel better. The seal of Solomon? It's an occult, evil symbol.

The actions of the criminal Zionists in the international waters off of occupied Palestine who carried out their murders of 19 human-rights activists under the blue & white flag w/ that symbol on it show that they are become the synagogue of Satan.

Zionists Attack Humanitarian Aid Workers In International Waters, Freedom Flotilla - 19 Dead
Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,472


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2010, 10:19:17 AM »

Quote from: Schultz
"What actual archaeological evidence is there that links this particular six-pointed star with the pagan deity Raephan?"

About as much archaeological evidence as there is linking it it with the Biblical 'Jews'....

But I didn't ask you about linking this symbol with Biblical Jews.  I asked you if there was any evidence linking this symbol with the pagan deity Raephan.  Please stick to the subject.

Quote
BTW, is it just me - or is that a six-pointed star in the background behind you in your avatar image?

It's just you.  It's actually a seven pointed star star done in the "nautical" style. 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2010, 10:52:48 AM »

χ (600) + ξ (60) + ϛ (6) = 666. John wrote χξϛ not ϛϛϛ, so therefore the total value (for the theory to qualify as a realistic possibility) must equal 666 not 18, so this immediately rules out your Star of David theory.

QFT
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 10:53:33 AM by bogdan » Logged
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2010, 11:04:12 AM »

Quote from: Nazarene
"Like what (evidence is there)?"

That's my point... there isn't any that I know of. But neither is there any evidence for your assertions .

Quote
"So then tell me how the Fathers got χξϛ to equal 666? Cause as far as I know the only way that could've happened if they (as John said) "calculated" the values of the letters. χ (600) + ξ (60) + ϛ (6) = 666. John wrote χξϛ not ϛϛϛ, so therefore the total value (for the theory to qualify as a realistic possibility) must equal 666 not 18, so this immediately rules out your Star of David theory."

You're still adding 6+6+6 to get 18... Why? There are no addition symbols (+) in the Seal of Solomon! I can see three sixes... Again, without your interpolated addition symbols, a 6 beside a 6 beside another 6 reads: six hundred and sixty-six. So drop the '18' thing already.

Quote
"Actually no, believe it or not no legitimate Jewish text ever mentions the Maagen David, not even the Zohar or Rashi."

The 'Encyclopaedia Judaica mentions it:

“In Arab sources the hexagram…was widely used under the designation “seal of Solomon,” a term which was also taken over by many Jewish groups…It is not clear in which period the hexagram was engraved on the seal or ring of Solomon, mentioned in the Talmud (Git.68a-b) as a sign of his dominion over the demons instead of the name of God, which originally appeared…

In Arabic magic the “seal of Solomon” was widely used, but at first it’s use in Jewish circles was restricted to relatively rare cases. Even then, the hexagram and pentagram were easily interchangeable and the name was applied to both figures.” 

“Between 1300 and 1700 the two terms shield of David and seal of Solomon, are used indiscriminately, predominately in magical texts…

(Encyclopaedia Judaica; 1972 Edition, Article: Magen David)


As for the remainder of your reply... Whatever makes you feel better. The seal of Solomon? It's an occult, evil symbol.

The actions of the criminal Zionists in the international waters off of occupied Palestine who carried out their murders of 19 human-rights activists under the blue & white flag w/ that symbol on it show that they are become the synagogue of Satan.

Zionists Attack Humanitarian Aid Workers In International Waters, Freedom Flotilla - 19 Dead

Since you're making the same error so many popular prophecy "experts" make, i.e. using current events to interpret prophecy that was written over 2000 years ago, and refuse to even take the author's own cultural mindset into consideration, I have nothing more to say to you regarding this. Just relieved that so far no here seems to be taking this BS too seriously, I'd rather consult the Fathers and men of wisdom like Inok Vsevolod who know that the Scriptures were neither written with a modern American mindset or modern "Zionism phobia" mindset.
Logged
Saint Iaint
This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Once Delivered
Posts: 625


The Truth Shall Be Reviled


WWW
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2010, 05:12:48 PM »

χ (600) + ξ (60) + ϛ (6) = 666. John wrote χξϛ not ϛϛϛ, so therefore the total value (for the theory to qualify as a realistic possibility) must equal 666 not 18, so this immediately rules out your Star of David theory.

QFT

What does this equal to you?

- 666

No addition! No math! Just read it.

Quote from: Nazarene
"I have nothing more to say to you regarding this."

OK. Good.

Quote from: Nazarene
"... modern "Zionism phobia" mindset."

What a ridiculous term! Much like 'homphobia'...

I'm not scared of them! A 'phobia' indicates fear... I have no fear of them.

I just abhore their evil deeds; their anti-Christ works of darkness. I work to expose them with the light of truth and to reprove them.... I guess you approve of the Zionist entity's piracy and murder on the sea?

Did you even click the link at the end of my last reply ? No matter... The Irish-flagged ship MV Rachel Corrie is also currently en route to Gaza. (Do you know who Rachel Corrie was? May God bless her compassionate soul! )

The cargo ship, which has four Irish nationals aboard, is proceeding at a slow cruising speed in order to maximize media coverage and anticipation.

The Irish nationals on board the Rachel Corrie include:

- Nobel laureate Maireád Corrigan-Maguire
- Former UN Assistant Secretary General and Human Rights Coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday
- Husband and wife, Derek and Jenny Graham.

Do you think the murderous Zionists; the so-called 'Israelis' will kill them dead in the water too? Will you help me pray for their safe passage to Gaza with the desperately needed humanitarian aid they carry?
Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2010, 06:37:05 AM »

χ (600) + ξ (60) + ϛ (6) = 666. John wrote χξϛ not ϛϛϛ, so therefore the total value (for the theory to qualify as a realistic possibility) must equal 666 not 18, so this immediately rules out your Star of David theory.

QFT

What does this equal to you?

- 666

Six hundred and sixty six, which is what χξϛ equals and what the Maagen David does not equal, no matter how much you want it to, even multiplying 6 by 6 by 6 won't equal six hundred and sixty six.

No addition! No math! Just read it.

Sorry but Rev 13:18 clearly states that the number of the Beast must be calculated, everyone else, including the Fathers acknowledges this. I did calculate all the sixs given of the Maagen David and the total is not six hundred and sixty six, so it's not the mark of the Beast, it's that simple.

Quote from: Nazarene
"... modern "Zionism phobia" mindset."

What a ridiculous term! Much like 'homphobia'...

I'm not scared of them! A 'phobia' indicates fear... I have no fear of them.

I just abhore their evil deeds; their anti-Christ works of darkness. I work to expose them with the light of truth and to reprove them.... I guess you approve of the Zionist entity's piracy and murder on the sea?

There are many other anti-Christ works of darkness active on this earth, the question is which one does the Bible specifically point out as the final Beast kingdom? Go and do some reading of the Tanakh, the only  nations that have been specifically singled out BY NAME for judgement at Messiah's return are the nations that surround Israel, and that really shouldn't surprise any of us considering what they all have in common. And I can give you plenty of Scriptural references to prove this is so, eg: Numbers 24:17-19, Micah 5:4-6, Ezekiel 38-39, Ezekiel 32, Daniel 11:21-44, Psalm 83, Psalm 79 among many others. Revelation is the last book of the Bible that was written, later prophecies need to be in harmony with the prophecies that came before them. Nearly every single verse in Revelation directly quotes or alludes to the end times prophecies in the Tanakh spoken by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, the Psalmists and the Twelve Minor Prophets. For this reason these earlier prophecies need to be consulted in order to correctly interpret the prophecies in Revelation (the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge comes in handy here).

Here's an example of what I mean:

{Revelation 16:1} Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Now we go to the Tanakh passage that this verse in Revelation is alluding to find out why God is pouring His wrath upon the followers of the Antichrist:

{Psalm 79:6-7} Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You, And on the kingdoms that do not call on Your name. For they have devoured Jacob, And laid waste his dwelling place.

(Also see Jeremiah 5:25 which has an almost identical statement, this leads many to believe that Jeremiah is the author of Psalm 79).

Using the Tanakh passage alluded to in Rev 16:1, we learn that:

a) the followers of the Antichrist are nations that do not know YHWH
b) the followers of the Antichrist are kingdoms that do not call on the name of YHWH
c) the followers of the Antichrist are nations and kingdoms who have devoured Jacob and laid wast his dwelling place.

While the context of Psalm 79 is a historical event which has already occurred, the reason Revelation 16:1 alludes to it is because God will judge the followers of the Antichrist for the same reason He judged the "heathen roundabout" back in those days.

I can give you literally hundreds more examples of this.

Did you even click the link at the end of my last reply ? No matter... The Irish-flagged ship MV Rachel Corrie is also currently en route to Gaza. (Do you know who Rachel Corrie was? May God bless her compassionate soul! )

The cargo ship, which has four Irish nationals aboard, is proceeding at a slow cruising speed in order to maximize media coverage and anticipation.

The Irish nationals on board the Rachel Corrie include:

- Nobel laureate Maireád Corrigan-Maguire
- Former UN Assistant Secretary General and Human Rights Coordinator in Iraq, Denis Halliday
- Husband and wife, Derek and Jenny Graham.

Do you think the murderous Zionists; the so-called 'Israelis' will kill them dead in the water too? Will you help me pray for their safe passage to Gaza with the desperately needed humanitarian aid they carry?

I will certainly pray with you for the safe passage of MV Rachel Corrie, but you are missing the point I'm trying to make entirely. You are interpreting the prophecies in Revelation according to your own mindset and experience just like Luther and the Reformers did when they identified the Harlot of Babylon with the Vatican and the Antichrist with the Pope of Rome. The problem is the Reformers did not write Revelation, John did, Revelation is to be interpreted from John's mindset and experience, not that of Luther. You'd be wise to adhere to this advice before jumping to any conclusions regarding the identity of the Beast (emphasis mine):

Quote
Method of Interpretation

Care must also be taken to avoid personal and/or political bias. It is natural to seek to discover any great modern power or nation somewhere within the pages of Biblical prophecy. An example of this is seen in the desire to find the United States, China, or Japan in the prophetic Word. This temptation is only heightened when the nation or power in question is also an evil empire, as with the Soviet Union. Unger makes this mistake when he says "It is unthinkable that this vast God-defying power [USSR] would not be included in the scope of things to come as set forth in the Bible." Walvoord does virtually the same when he says "The godlessness of the invading army attacking Israel also points the finger to the nation Russia."

The weakness of this type of argument is obvious: that a political regime is evil and powerful today is no indication that it will be a part of international crises tomorrow. When interpreting Scripture, personal and political bias must be set aside. The priority of the written Word demands that Scripture be allowed to speak for itself and interpreted by itself.

Imminence and Interpretation

Another observation worthy of mention involves a popular teaching of the imminent return of Christ. Those who emphasize the teaching that Christ may return at any moment often fall into error by assuming that His return must therefore be soon. However, the hidden time-table of Christ's second coming necessarily assumes that His return may not be soon at all. No one can say whether He will come sooner or later, however current events may seem to coincide with prophetic events. This should evoke considerable pause on the part of the interpreter before he becomes willing to specifically identify any nation as a part of Biblical prophecy unless there is clear, specified warrant to do so. This mistake has been made over and again in church history only to see Christ's delayed return disprove the interpretation. With the elapsed time the identified powers have waned.

The bearing this has upon this present study is clear. For example, if the Lord were to return today it is difficult to imagine how Russia (or the U.S.A.!) could not be somehow involved in the end-time battles. But this does not mean that Christ's return is very near, and it does not require that Russia be a part of the prophecy. That a nation is likely to be involved if events were to occur soon is not proof that the nation is specified in the original prophecy. Seventy years ago the possibility of Russia's being an end-time power was almost unthinkable. Should the Lord tarry another seventy years the same may be true of Russia then; no one can say.

Walvoord falls prey to this error when he says,

"Today, to the north of the nation Israel is the armed might of Russia. Never before has it seemed more likely that the prediction will be fulfilled given by Ezekiel (chapter 38-39) of an invasion from the north. To the east is the rising might of Red China, with the growing force of nationalism in India as well as the revival of Japan. Never before has it seemed more likely that there should be a tremendous military host coming from Asia, crossing the Euphrates river, and moving down on the scene of battle in the Middle East as predicted in Revelation 9:16."

Notice that the time-table of prophetic Scripture is interpreted by current events rather than allowing Scripture to speak for itself. Neither Russia, China, India, or Japan are mentioned in Scripture, but they are assumed to be a part of the prophetic Word because they are, today, the powers that be.

It is interesting that Berkhof, an avowed Amillennialist, made this same mistake of judging Scripture by the modern political scene when, while arguing against premillennialism in 1938, he asserted that the thought of Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon again rising to power is nothing short of an "absurdity." Needless to say, the thought is none too absurd today, a mere five decades later.

These two examples, from opposing standpoints, demonstrate the importance of specifically identifying nations only when there is ample Scriptural warrant to do so.

Hermeneutical Guidelines

Two principles of hermeneutics have direct bearing upon this study. First is the importance of literalism. It is a bit ironic that this should need to be asserted in argument against dispensational authors, but, as it will be shown, the need is real. Terms must be interpreted in their primary, ordinary, usual meaning. The temptation to apply them to something far removed from the author, without explicit exegetical warrant, must be carefully resisted.

This leads to the second principle to be emphasized: historical interpretation. This simply means that the passage must be considered within the frame of reference of the author and recipients of the writing. To carry it beyond requires, again, explicit warrant.

Quoted from http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/ezekiel.htm which for me is the best eschatological commentary on Ezekiel 38-39 I have found so far on the web.

There are many factors that need to be taken into consideration in order to correctly identify the Beast, and the other symbols in Revelation. Besides the Tanakh which takes care of about 50% of "unlocking the symbols", other factors like John's mother tongue (Yeshua and the Angels did not converse with John in Greek) and John's culture also offer valuable insights. Compare the description of the Beast with the ancient Near Eastern myths about Leviathan, which John would've been aquainted with, for instance. I'm saying this because it appears that all you're doing is basing your theory on the assumption: "I think the Zionists are evil therefore I think they could be the Beast" then stringing together coincidental details in order to "make it fit" the prophecies in Scripture, without taking all the relevant factors into consideration, just like Luther and the Reformers. But when it comes to fitting all the pieces together, after taking all the relevant factors into consideration, the Maagen David just doesn't fulfill all the requirements IMO.

Part of the problem is your starting point, to demonstrate the importance of where to start regarding end times prophecy (emphasis mine):

Quote
Where to begin?

When we are attempting to get a bird’s eye view—the larger picture of what the Bible truly says about the End-Times, the first question that should be asked is this: Where do we begin? And in fact, this is perhaps one of the biggest reasons that so many have erred in their quest to accurately understand what saith the Scriptures on this matter; they begin in all the wrong places. Whenever I speak or teach on the subject of the End-Times, the first rule that I always mention when establishing some basic rules for responsible End-Time Hermeneutics is this: When you begin to approach the Bible in order to properly understand what it is saying about the End-times, you do not begin with the Book of Revelation! Yet everyday, many very good students and teachers alike will make this mistake again and again. The Book of Revelation, unlike any other book in the New Testament literally oozes with direct citations, references, allusions, and even more subtle echoes of dozens upon dozens of passages throughout the Old Testament. The Book of Revelation is so thoroughly founded upon the Old Testament that one cannot even begin to understand this book without first understanding the numerous passages that this book is founded upon. So rule number one is that you do not begin with what comes last, rather you begin with what comes first! Begin with the foundation. I know, now many of you are saying that we should begin with the Book of Daniel, right? Wrong. When attempting to understand a subject that is so vast and complex, you do not begin with passages that are allegorical, highly symbolic or difficult to interpret in general. Instead you begin with that which is clear, direct, and literal. Where you begin will always help determine where you end up. So as you are beginning to form assumptions that you will carry with you to numerous other passages, you must begin with passages that are clear, direct, and literal. This way the assumptions that you begin with are solid, thus providing a solid foundation of understanding to rely on as you approach the more difficult, questionable, or highly symbolic or allegorical passages. So you begin with what comes first (rule number one) and you begin with what is literal, clear, direct and easy to understand (rule number two). Does this sound fair, responsible and reasonable so far? Good. Now observing these two rules, let’s look at just a couple of passages and begin to lay a proper Biblical foundation for understanding the true nature of the Last-Days.

http://www.beastfromtheeast.org/Joel_1.html

May YHWH El Shaddai have mercy on the crew of the MV Rachel Corrie.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 06:51:06 AM by Nazarene » Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.077 seconds with 33 queries.