The Hip-Hop Thread

[EkhristosAnesti]

Changing the lyrics isn't going to solve that problem.

If these kids are already conditioned by society to listen to this music - a society which reflects the very negative attributes this sort of music usually motivates in these young listeners (drugs and sex etc) - then I see only two options: They continue to listen to big bass and electric guitars, with a vocalist telling them how high the weed takes them, and how good the sex is - or with a vocalist telling them to live for Christ and to renounce a sinful world.

Which has more potential to "solve the problem" smart guy?

Peace.

[idontlikenames]

Cizinec: closed-mindedness in EITHER direction is equally bad. Yes, I agree, it sickens me that everybody under the age of 20 cannot broaden his/her scope and they only listen to what the Entertainment Corporate Elite decides for them what they should listen to (Destiny's Child, American Idol, Dashboard Confessional, etc.).....all along deceptively believing that they CHOSE this form of music because of their own tastes....pffffff. But the opposite sickens me as well: people who think that unless you dress yourself with Fred Perry or Armani clothing, play golf, have a white-collar job, drive a gas-guzzling, Arab-murdering SUV, listen to Classical/Baroque/Romantic/20th Century Compositional Music, vote Republican (or Democrat, sincin' their both the same thing), and eat at restaurants where you can't get a shrimp cocktail for under $15, then you are obviously some boorish, Neanderthal, backwards inbred who is not fit to live.

[Matthew777]

Anyone who is unable to recognize that some hip-hop is an art form, rather than being a silly ode to busting caps and pimping, is either closedminded, ignorant, or both.

[cizinec]

Well, of the groups you listed as great, I've heard two glorious Beastie Boys albums. They are trash. They (or their producers, at any rate) use pre-recording music and "say" (I don't even think what they do can be classified as rap, it's so bloody bad) disgusting or stupid lyrics over the top.

 I was actually around when Afrika Bambaataa's albums were coming out and break dancing was all the rage.

I've heard Salt-N-Peppa way back when.

And, for crying out loud, I hear it 7 days a week screaming out of teenagers cars!!! It's all over the radio, now we have a Spanish language hip-hop station, which I have briefly endured, and it's played on television shows and in movies. How in the bleeding world could I *NOT* hear it??

[cizinec]

Ekhristos Anesti,

That is an obvious false dichotomy.  There are more than TWO musical options in the world.

[Matthew777]

If you haven't heard a Roots album, then you have no right to have an opinion on the music.

[cizinec]

idln, you also provide us with a false dichotomy. List two "types" of people and ask us to choose which one or to go between the two. The world is a lot more complex than what you folks are presenting.

[cizinec]

Matthew, I have a right to an opinion of the music I hear incessantly from society that I am told is called hiphop.  You can argue that I can't judge the Roots album.  You can't argue that I can't say I can't stand the genre, as I can't STOP hearing it.

[Matthew777]

Matthew, I have a right to an opinion of the music I hear incessantly from society that I am told is called hiphop. You can argue that I can't judge the Roots album. You can't argue that I can't say I can't stand the genre, as I can't STOP hearing it.

There is a difference between commercialized fake hip-hop and the real stuff. It is like apples and oranges. Chances are, you've only heard what they play on TRL.

[EkhristosAnesti]

Ciznec,

Don't be stupid; we are dealing with situations that require practical solutions, not logically possible solutions - so there is no dichotomy.

The discussion was under the acceptable presumption that there are kids out there ALREADY CONDITIONED to a particular sort of music. Redirecting the focus of this music is obviously the most PRACTICAL solution; or do you suggest we go around and hand out liturgical CD's?

Peace.

[cizinec]

EA, we have radically different opinions of the abilities of young minds to adapt.

Matthew, ever heard of the Digable Planets? I used to love those guys. I saw them in concert. I wasn't that fond of the rap, but, man, they could jam.

You are the one who mentioned the "Beastie Boys," not me. I'm pretty sure that they're commercial. About once a month I get exposed to "underground" hiphop from Pacifica radio (our local socialist station). I don't like that crap any more than I like Beastie Boys.  I don't spend much time memorizing the names of the "artists" since I can't stand the stuff.  I don't think, "Hey, that was really aweful!  I need to write down the name of the band and run out to buy the album!"

Some of the kids at work are always trying to convert me to your side of this.  They give me CDs to "convert" me.  It doesn't work because I think it STINKS.

[Matthew777]

You are the one who mentioned the "Beastie Boys," not me. I'm pretty sure that they're commercial.

The Beastie Boys do not follow trends. They have the right for their songs to get mainstream play.

[Matthew777]

They give me CDs to "convert" me. It doesn't work because I think it STINKS.

What one thinks does not influence what is.

[idontlikenames]

cizinec: Being a lover of all kinds of music, I am lacking in my compositional section in my CD collection.  But, unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin.  Could you guide me to collections, symphonies, albums, etc. that are good?  (p.s. I am not a big fan of the Romantic Era).....where do I start?

[cizinec]

Not being a fan of the romantic era is a good start, not that I'm opinionated or anything.

[Nacho]

What I hate about alot of rap is how they steal and sample from other accomplished artist songs and then make some cheesy rap out of it (a la Sean Puffy Combs). What I hate also are all the dum little white boys with their pants sagging down with the backwards hat as if they just stepped out of South Central LA. I always make sure to make some kind of comment to these morons when I'm out. What also pisses me off are the idiots with heavy bass blasting when your out driving and it literally shakes your car and disrupts the peace. There is much better music out there than rap.

[idontlikenames]

guys like that still exist?....where I live, all the white guys where tight jeans, dye their hair black, and wear "The Smiths" or "The Sisters of Mercy" t-shirts.

[cizinec]

Sorry, I should be more helpful.

These are all just my opinion.  I won’t point to particular recordings, although I prefer HIP (historically informed performances).

1.   Medieval:
a.   Johannes Ciconia - Pick something
b.   The Island of St. Hylarion:  Music of Cyprus (this is Ars Subtilior)
c.   Pilgrimage to Santiago
d.   Gregorian Chants (of course) - pick a source
2.   Reaissance:
a.   Josquin Desprez - his “Ave Maria” ends with a fantastic “O Matre Dei, memento mei.”
b.   Monteverdi - La favola d’Orfeo
c.   Palestrina - Missa Papa Marcelli
d.   Thomas Tallis - Take your pick
3.   Baroque
a.   What can I say?  Bach, Vivaldi, Telemann, Purcell, Machaut, Zelenka, etc.  Surf the web and find a good HIP recording of Bach.  You just can’t go wrong.
4.   Classical
a.   C.P.E. Bach’s Sonatas for Keyboard
b.   Beethoven - there’s too much to list
c.   Mozart - I’m not that fond of Mozart, but still . . .
d.   Bocchernin -    Quintets for guitar and string


Now that I’m writing all this, the best thing to do is enroll in a music appreciation class.  The class includes several CDs of basic music that takes you through the important periods.  Once you’re done with that, take the first music theory class.  It’s well worth the effort.

[Matthew777]

What I hate about alot of rap is how they steal and sample from other accomplished artist songs and then make some cheesy rap out of it 

The Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutique not only makes ample use of samples but creates better compositions than the originals. It truly is a great album.

 

There is much better music out there than rap.

That all depends on what kind of rap you are thinking of.

[cizinec]

I also forgot about "Adventures in Good Music," a one hour, weekly radio program on a lot of NPR stations.  http://www.wuol.org/haas_bio.htm

Unfortunately, Karl Haas died in February.  Since he did the show for over forty years, they have a lot of great old programs they are sending out over sinidication.  Those shows are a great way to get introduced to music.  If your NPR station doesn't carry the program, you can still listen to it on several NPR stations that have webcasts.  You can find out the times here.

[idontlikenames]

ok....thanx for the input.....I think everyone advances to better tastes as they get older....i just graduated to jazz about a year ago....compositional is my next step.

[cizinec]

But the opposite sickens me as well: people who think that unless you dress yourself with Fred Perry or Armani clothing, play golf, have a white-collar job, drive a gas-guzzling, Arab-murdering SUV, listen to Classical/Baroque/Romantic/20th Century Compositional Music, vote Republican (or Democrat, sincin' their both the same thing), and eat at restaurants where you can't get a shrimp cocktail for under $15, then you are obviously some boorish, Neanderthal, backwards inbred who is not fit to live.

I honestly think you're missing something here.

Most of the folks with whom I have to deal professionally make a great deal more money than me. They are very judgemental about cars, suits and restaurants. Most of them know absolutely nothing about any type of music other than pop, hiphop or classic rock.

Do I think that a group of people who shut themselves off from the higher forms of music because they don't want to learn it are boorish, backwards Neanderthals? If I were to give a generic answer I'd have to say yes.

Quality music doesn't cost a dime more than crap. There are plenty of educational programs offered FOR FREE from radio stations, television, local libraries and the internet. In fact, you'll find quality music to be MORE accessible than popular pig swill.

I think the rich elitists you are describing are more likely to be hiphop junkies or classic rock headbangers than people who get their feathers ruffled when discussing the Morimur album. Most of the folks who discuss that stuff are poor or middle class musicians, students, professors and average, interested people.

[cizinec]

I broke up with a girl from the Czech Republic when I was 23 because she didn't like jazz.  Man, that's America's "Classical" music.  I always defer to my father-in-law on that subject.  I do have a couple of Bird (Charlie Parker) albums on LP that we listen to time and again.

[BrotherAidan]

Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Charles Mingus, Horace Silver, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Bennie Goodman, Wes Montgomery, Sonny Rollins - very sublime American Classical Music

[Matthew777]

Cizinec, why not try jazz-rap?

"Jazz-Rap was an attempt to fuse African-American music of the past with a newly dominant form of the present, paying tribute to and reinvigorating the former while expanding the horizons of the latter. While the rhythms of jazz-rap came entirely from hip-hop, the samples and sonic textures were drawn mainly from cool jazz, soul-jazz, and hard bop. It was cooler and more cerebral than other styles of hip-hop, and many of its artists displayed an Afrocentric political consciousness, complementing the style's historical awareness. Given its more intellectual bent, it's not surprising that jazz-rap never really caught on as a street favorite, but then it wasn't meant to. Jazz-rap styled itself as a more positive alternative to the hardcore/gangsta movement taking over rap's mainstream at the dawn of the '90s, and concerned itself with spreading hip-hop to listeners unable to embrace or identify with the music's increasing inner-city aggression. As such, jazz-rap found its main audiences in places like college campuses, and was also embraced by a number of critics and white alternative rock fans. Afrika Bambaataa's Native Tongues posse — a loose collective of New York-based, Afrocentric rap groups — was the most important force in jazz-rap, including groups like A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers; Digable Planets and Gang Starr were other notable early artists. During the mid- to late '90s, as alternative rap moved into a wider-ranging eclecticism, jazz-rap was not often pursued as an exclusive end, although the Roots frequently incorporated it in their live-instrumentation hip-hop."
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2920

[idontlikenames]

lol....I'm listening to Jaco Pastorius' self-titled album even as we speak. :headbang: :hippy:

[Mo the Ethio]

Louis Jordan,Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Little Richard, James Brown, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Sam and Dave, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Aretha, Al Green, Sly Stone, George Clinton and......oh yeah , Michael Jackson
                                        Classics.

[idontlikenames]

and don't forget the OTHER side of roots music: Bob Marley, Burning Spear, Mad Professor, King Tubby, Scientist, Peter Tosh, Buju Banton, Lady Saw, etc.

"I'm not boasting......I'm going toasting......"

[Matthew777]

I listened to Peter Tosh...until I quit doing drugs. Now, I cannot even find my copy of Legalize It. Thank God.

[Matthew777]

As for the Minor Threat reference, the Dead Kennedys were formed in 1978 and screamed the vocals instead of singing.

[BrotherAidan]

"lol....I'm listening to Jaco Pastorius' self-titled album even as we speak. "
Jaco era Weather Report records is great stuff!
Also check him out with Joni Mitchell on the Mingus and Shadows and Light live records

[BrotherAidan]

"Louis Jordan,Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Little Richard, James Brown, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Sam and Dave, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Aretha, Al Green, Sly Stone, George Clinton and......oh yeah , Michael Jackson
 Classics."

Agree completely!
Don't forget Donny Hathaway!
then there were all those "Philadelphia sound" (as opposed to Motwn) soul groups too

[Matthew777]

Kanye West - Jesus Walks Lyrics
Yo, We at war
We at war with terrorism, racism but most of all we at war with ourselves
(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the Devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks with me) with me with me with me [fades]

You know what the Midwest is?
Young & Restless
Where restless Niggaz might snatch your necklace
And next these Niggaz might jack your Lexus
Somebody tell these Niggaz who Kanye West is
I walk through the valley of Chi where death is
Top floor the view alone will leave you breathless Uhhhh!
Try to catch it Uhhhh! It's kinda hard hard
Getting choked by the detectives yeah yeah now check the method
They be asking us questions, harass and arrest us
Saying "we eat pieces of xxxx like you for breakfast"
Huh? Yall eat pieces of xxxx? What's the basis?
We ain't going nowhere but got suits and cases
A trunk full of coke rental car from Avis
My momma used to say only Jesus can save us
Well momma I know I act a fool
But I'll be gone til November I got packs to move I Hope

[HOOK x2]
(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the Devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks with me)
The only thing that I pray is that me feet don't fail me now
(Jesus Walks)
And I don't think there is nothing I can do now to right my
wrongs
(Jesus Walks with me)
I want to talk to God but I'm afraid because we ain't spoke in
so long

To the hustlas, killers, murderers, drug dealers even the
strippers
To the victims of Welfare for we living in hell here hell yeah
Now hear ye hear ye want to see Thee more clearly
I know he hear me when my feet get weary
Cuz we're the almost nearly extinct
We rappers as role models we rap we don't think
I ain't here to argue about his facial features
Or here to convert atheists into believers
I'm just trying to say the way school need teachers
The way Kathie Lee needed Regis that's the way yall need Jesus
So here go my single dog radio needs this
They say you can rap about anything except for Jesus
That means guns, sex, lies, video tapes
But if I talk about God my record won't get played Huh?
Well let this take away from my spins
Which will probably take away from my ends
Then I hope this take away from my sins
And bring the day that I'm dreaming about
Next time I'm in the club everybody screaming out

(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks)
The only thing that I pray is that me feet don't fail me now

[cizinec]

Cizinec, why not try jazz-rap?

When "Acid Jazz" first appeared a gave it a shot.  As I mentioned earlier, I liked (to an extent) the Digable Planets and saw them in concert.  Acid Jazz became more acid and less jazz, so I let it go. 

[germanus]

For those who know the underground scene...Hip Hop starts with the beats. Check out Busdriver, Common Scence, Aesop Rock (but he cusses alot like everyone in N.Y.), Vast Air, Cannibal Ox, Mark Farina...Mushroom Jazz(good down tempo beats.), People Under the Stairs, Invisible Scratch Pickles...RJD2, Q-Bert, Freestyle Fellowship, Blackalicious, definately check out anything by Dj Drez or Medusa. Remember to listen to God's word and your conscience more than any of this music and get a cd of some french western orthodox liturgy( real good stuff like you've never heard before). Keep up the good tunes and beats. when things seem to fall apart, ask His mercy into your heart.Get up off your feet. hit your knees. thats how we start. Orthodox in the Heezy!! yey yey!

[germanus]

Oh yeah..one cd hard to find but totaslly worth it is from a group that doesn't exist anymore. the Arsonists...Blaze.

[ionus]

Some of my favorites back in the day were Del the funky homosapien,all of Hieroglyphics-Casual- most, Aceyalone, Freestyle Fellowship, Gang Starr, The Roots, MC Solaar(French).  Now I'm pretty much out of the rap scene completely but still enjoy hearing some "oldies but goodies", but don't seek them out or play them deliberately, it makes me want to dance, and I'm too out of shape to want to dance

[Jetavan]

I recommend Mongolian rappers. They're all ex-Khans.

[Justin Kissel]

^LOL. Did you look this thread up to say that, or do you just happen to have a slew of bad jokes that you can whip out whenever needed?

[Jetavan]

^LOL. Did you look this thread up to say that, or do you just happen to have a slew of bad jokes that you can whip out whenever needed?

The answers that you Sikh can be found within.

[Justin Kissel]

 

[IsmiLiora]

Interrupting the funny (that sikh joke was pretty cool!  )

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...but these are my favorite groups:

1) Hadag Nachash (Israeli group....they rap a lot about politics! They're on the moderate/left side of the IP conflict.)
2) Subliminal (Zionist Israeli rapper)
3) SHI 360 (Israeli too....I'm pretty sure he's Zionist but I'm not positive)
4) DAM (Palestinian group)

[Cognomen]

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...

I've always believed hip-hop was just what relatively affluent white kids and artists/record labels marketing towards relatively affluent white kids called it.

I enjoy being on the wrong end of some pretty nasty eye rolling from pretentious hipsters when I use the term rap.    Right back at 'em.

[Iconodule]

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...

I've always believed hip-hop was just what relatively affluent white kids and artists/record labels marketing towards relatively affluent white kids called it.

I enjoy being on the wrong end of some pretty nasty eye rolling from pretentious hipsters when I use the term rap.    Right back at 'em.

The terms are used interchangeably and "hip hop" is certainly not a rich hipster term.

[orthonorm]

Interrupting the funny (that sikh joke was pretty cool!  )

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...but these are my favorite groups:

1) Hadag Nachash (Israeli group....they rap a lot about politics! They're on the moderate/left side of the IP conflict.)
2) Subliminal (Zionist Israeli rapper)
3) SHI 360 (Israeli too....I'm pretty sure he's Zionist but I'm not positive)
4) DAM (Palestinian group)

Don't let non-heads say otherwise: hip-hop is an umbrella term for an emergent urban (not PC here, was ethnically diverse) phenomenon beginning around the very early 80's perhaps very late 70's, of which "rap" is an element albeit the most widespread and well-known.

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