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Matthew777
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« on: May 09, 2005, 01:13:51 AM »

Does anyone on this forum enjoy real hip-hip? If so, do you have any album recomendations? I am not talking about gangster rap or the thugs on the radio who have no talent (Master P, Puff Daddy, etc.) but the artistic rappers who create their own complex beats and write witty lyrics.
I really dig the Beastie Boys. Though many only know them for their first hit "Fight for Your Right", they've really matured since then. I would recomend the Sounds of Science, their anthology, for a solid introduction to the group.
I also like John Reuben and Furthermore, which are Christian hip-hop groups that do not sound derivative like other Christian acts.
Now, I am starting to listen to the Roots and I've heard that Things Fall Apart is one of the best rap albums ever recorded. The Roots play their own instraments, use jazz elements in their sound, and provide thought-provoking political commentary in their lyrics. 
Oh, man. Next to classic rock and punk, hip-hop has got to be my favorite style. But then again, I am very picky about which hip-hop I listen to.
Anything about "busting caps" is a waste of time. Know what I mean?
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2005, 01:20:59 AM »

Uh, Master P is one of the most brilliant hip hop artists and entrepreneurs around. Don't you know that he is the reason that people can actually make money in hip hop because he revolutionized the idea of artists recording on their own labels? His song "bout it bout it" from 1996 was a real classic.

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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2005, 01:21:58 AM »

Some of the best lyrics were by Biggie Smalls and Tupac. They had the best lyrics but unfortunately had lots of profanity.  Best music had to be Dr Dre from the Chronic album.
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2005, 01:22:07 AM »

Anything DRE
Lil' Jon
Ludacris
David Banner
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2005, 01:22:46 AM »

Outcast's 1990's teamup with Mystikal was great too!
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2005, 01:22:57 AM »

Uh, Master P is one of the most brilliant hip hop artists and entrepreneurs around.

Really? Then perhaps I am only thinking of the stereotype of Master P. Do you have any song recomendations?
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2005, 01:23:06 AM »

yea i got all the chronic albums. they're quality.
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2005, 01:25:05 AM »

Anything DRE
Lil' Jon
Ludacris

Um... Perhaps a little too corporate for my tastes. I could be mistaken.

David Banner

I've never heard of him. I'll look that up. Thank you.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2005, 01:25:59 AM »

Juvenile
Old skool - Onyx

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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2005, 01:31:02 AM »

There is a difference between mainstream "gangster" acts like Dr. Dre and progressive hip-hop artists like the Roots.
Though the Beastie Boys are incredibly popular, I really dig them because they don't follow any trends. They play their own instruments, cut their own loops and beats, write witty lyrics, and do not follow any gangster sterotypes.
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2005, 01:32:19 AM »

There is a difference between mainstream "gangster" acts like Dr. Dre and progressive hip-hop artists like the Roots.

True but just because something is mainstream doesn't mean it is bad.
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2005, 01:33:47 AM »



Really? Then perhaps I am only thinking of the stereotype of Master P. Do you have any song recomendations?

No, it's been such a long time. You probably wouldn't like his music though because he is "commercial," but his true contribution is as I said in freeing artists.

Now that I think about it, Nas is probably the best lyricist ever. Have you heard any of his tracks such as "If I Ruled the World" etc? Now that is quality.  He is against fake gangstas and even wrote a whole song dissing Jay-Z as the phoney that he really is. Now that is quality Wink

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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2005, 01:34:43 AM »

True but just because something is mainstream doesn't mean it is bad.

That is true. I just don't usually listen to anything that fits into any ganster stereotypes.
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 01:38:39 AM »



That is true. I just don't usually listen to anything that fits into any ganster stereotypes.

Ah, but by accepting stereotypes aren't you fitting into mainstream yourself? lol

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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 01:45:55 AM »

As for a Christian group, I also recomend Grits, especially if you like Outkast.
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2005, 02:10:41 AM »


Now that I think about it, Nas is probably the best lyricist ever.

Have you listened to Illmatic?

Have you heard any of his tracks such as "If I Ruled the World" etc? Now that is quality. 

I am downloading it now. Thanks.
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2005, 03:20:32 AM »

Hip hop.... NOOOOOOOO.

Each to their own I suppose. (I dont listen to serbian "Turbo-folk" music either)...


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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2005, 04:16:24 AM »

I stopped listening to Dr Dre, B.I.G and Nas when i was 15. That's when I realised that it's no longer cool to listen to that sort of crap unless you are actually so screwed up to be able to empathise with the sort of things they rap about.

Props to Cross Movement. Some of their songs have the best Christian lyrics I’ve ever heard. They have a rhythmical style on par with Eminem and Tech N9ne, and they generally have a very Mobb Deep feel to them. I don't want to generalise too much though because they manage to bring so much variety to the table. Oh and they definitely never disappoint when it comes down to delivery and flow.

Recommended songs:

-   What do you see
-   Father Forgive them
-   Closer to You
-   I Love You Jesus
-   Remember

Peace.
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2005, 11:22:13 AM »

Does anyone listen to Jurassic Five?
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2005, 11:24:50 AM »



Hip hop.... NOOOOOOOO.

Each to their own I suppose. (I dont listen to serbian "Turbo-folk" music either)...




Man I love Serbian techno folk!  But of course I also like "real" Serbian folk music.  Techno folk, though, I love Osman Hadjic's* Moja Prva Luba Wink

Anastasios

*I am sure with a name like that he is Bosnian but we all know they speak Serbian Wink
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2005, 02:29:42 PM »

Sweet...

The Beastie Boys: Sabotage
I Can't Stand It I Know You Planned It
I'm Gonna Set It Straight, This Watergate
I Can't Stand Rocking When I'm In Here
Because Your Crystal Ball Ain't So Crystal Clear
So While You Sit Back and Wonder Why
I Got This Fucking Thorn In My Side
Oh My, It's A Mirage
I'm Tellin' Y'all It's Sabotage

So Listen Up 'Cause You Can't Say Nothin'
You'll Shut Me Down With A Push Of Your Button?
But Yo I'm Out And I'm Gone
I'll Tell You Now I Keep It On And On

'Cause What You See You Might Not Get
And We Can Bet So Don't You Get Souped Yet
You're Scheming On A Thing That's A Mirage
I'm Trying To Tell You Now It's Sabotage

Whyyy; Our Backs Are Now Against The Wall
Listen All Of Y'all It's A Sabotage
Listen All Of Y'all It's A Sabotage
Listen All Of Y'all It's A Sabotage
Listen All Of Y'all It's A Sabotage

I Can't Stand It, I Know You Planned It
But I'm Gonna Set It Straight This Watergate
But I Can't Stand Rockin' When I'm In This Place
Because I Feel Disgrace Because You're All In My Face
But Make No Mistakes And Switch Up My Channel
I'm Buddy Rich When I Fly Off The Handle
What Could It Be, It's A Mirage
You're Scheming On A Thing - That's Sabotage
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2005, 04:53:03 PM »

Some of the best lyrics were by Biggie Smalls and Tupac. They had the best lyrics but unfortunately had lots of profanity. Best music had to be Dr Dre from the Chronic album.
I am really suprised at what you are saying. When I converted to Orthodoxy I threw out all my rap albums. As much as I do empathize with Tupac Shakur I think a lot of his songs are fueling violence and mistreatment of women. He was also a jerk to many people once he became popular. However I am shocked that you can say the Chronic album was good. I do not think one of the songs on that album has anything respectable or good in it that isn't marred by the evil of profanity, violence, and perverted sexual lyrics. I just cannot understand how you can think it is okay to listen to songs with artists yelling, "Yeah muthaf***a!," "B**ches ain't s**t but h**s and tricks," "real killa droppin' bombs like Hiroshima," and the rest of that crap.

Quote
Now that I think about it, Nas is probably the best lyricist ever
While I did like his song "One Love," which does accurately describe what it is like to have a friend doing hard time while his family goes to hell, I still do not think he can be described as a good guy.

I will ask you the same thing Fr.Seraphim asked a young man who came to his monastery and listened to Rock music, "How can you reconcile that with Orthodoxy?" When I converted I stopped listening to Rap music. It is not good for your nerves and destroys clear thinking. I think St.Nikodemos the Hagiorite would be shocked by you guys thinking that listening to such sensual, jarring music can be reconciled with the Orthodox lifestyle.

Of course I have an idea what your response will be,

"You tryin' to check my homie you best check ya'self 'cause when ya dis Dre ya dis ya'self, muthaf***a!"
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2005, 06:26:03 PM »

It is not good for your nerves and destroys clear thinking.

Christian hip-hop can actually be rather good for one's spiritual life, if you pick the right group. Furthermore, mainstream acts that do not focus on gangster themes are fun to listen to also. I'll always be a Beastie Boys fan!!!
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2005, 06:46:20 PM »



Christian hip-hop can actually be rather good for one's spiritual life, if you pick the right group. Furthermore, mainstream acts that do not focus on gangster themes are fun to listen to also. I'll always be a Beastie Boys fan!!!
Pentecostals do the same thing with music. They say it makes them feel spiritual. No offense Matthew but you recently told us you would chant the Jesus prayer to Shankar to make you feel spiritual. Such emphasis on mushy or uplifting feelings is not Orthodox. When I was a hedonist and Atheist a lot of things made me feel good but many of them were very sinful not spiritual. Often when we do very good things we feel nothing. What is important is that I am doing what is right not worrying about how I feel.
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2005, 06:55:14 PM »

Go tell the punks  and postpunks that the well-crafted sound has fallen to pieces.  Henry Rollins dwells here no more, there is no more punkular laurel, no Oi!ing sprint, and the voice of the Pixies has been silenced.

Punk is dead. 

Oi! Oi! Oi!
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2005, 06:56:59 PM »

Christian hip-hop is great because of the Christ-centered lyrics and moral themes. This isn't about how it makes one "feel good", this is about good music with a great message.
 I'm sorry but only a weirdo would think he is "too Orthodox" for some good music. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2005, 07:07:17 PM »

Punk is dead. 

Good thing this is a hip-hop thread, then. Smiley

As for punk, it will always be alive as long as Rancid makes music.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2005, 07:30:45 PM »

Christian hip-hop is great because of the Christ-centered lyrics and moral themes. This isn't about how it makes one "feel good", this is about good music with a great message.
 I'm sorry but only a weirdo would think he is "too Orthodox" for some good music.  Wink
Matthew you are just not getting it. Rap music plays on the senses in a way that is unhealthy. The Cthonic beats it utilizes are similar to what primitives do when the beat on drums an whip themselves into a dancing frenzy. It is unChristian and pagan in the extreme. Beats aside I do understand that some Rap songs have good lyrics but reading lyrics is quite different from listening to the music behind them.
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2005, 07:57:52 PM »

There is no way the Beastie Boy  could ever be "gangsta" Mike D. AKA Michael Diamond is the son of Neil Diamond. 

Also, since when is Rancid punk? If the band was born post 1985 it's post punk. The actual scene died long before you were born.
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2005, 08:22:46 PM »

The Cthonic beats it utilizes are similar to what primitives do when the beat on drums an whip themselves into a dancing frenzy.

This is exactly what Bible-belt fundamentalists said about jazz, blues and then rock music. This does not stem from the music itself but the racial stereotypes associated with the music.
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2005, 08:28:26 PM »



Of course I have an idea what your response will be,

"You tryin' to check my homie you best check ya'self 'cause when ya dis Dre ya dis ya'self, muthaf***a!"

Whatever. We are discussing the artistic merit of such albums. Note that I said it was unfortunate the amount of profanity used, etc.  I actually don't really listen to rap music all that much anymore anyway, because I recognize that it can be spiritually dangerous.  Your last line--my "response"--is actually quite ridiculous and shows you don't really care what my response would be so I give up and won't be saying anything else.

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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2005, 08:45:23 PM »

There is no way the Beastie Boy could ever be "gangsta" Mike D. AKA Michael Diamond is the son of Neil Diamond.

Mike D is not even related to Neil Diamond.

Also, since when is Rancid punk? If the band was born post 1985 it's post punk. The actual scene died long before you were born.

The original punk movement may have died but there will always be good bands who carry on the style. We might as well say that rock music died with Elvis too.
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2005, 09:27:09 PM »



Mike D is not even related to Neil Diamond.

And you can prove that how?  Maybe PhosZoe knows something you don't.
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2005, 10:46:18 PM »

Well, a paternity test would work

Let's order one!

Punk is dead (mostly).  It is for me.  Unfortunately(?) I grew out of it.  Now I listen to this hillbilly stuff my old man listened to when I was a kid.  Disgusting.  The other day I was listening to the "Texas Jukebox" on a local indie station.  I was really loving this song.  Then the anouncer came on and said, "that was George Jones . . ."  I had to stop the car because I was too sick to drive.

Okay okay.  I did buy one Dropkick Murphys CD after I got married. 

I still like some ska.  Ska isn't dead yet.  Right?
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2005, 10:55:16 PM »

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Well, a paternity test would work

Let's order one!

Somebody call Maury Povich!  laugh  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2005, 11:05:23 PM »

All right, you boyz are scarin' me out. Da worst I evuh listened to was Depeche Mode and U2 and no b*tches or homeys got shot or stabbed. Word.
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2005, 11:31:43 PM »

Nas
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2005, 11:33:32 PM »

Fr. Stan Fortuna
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2005, 11:36:50 PM »

NWA
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2005, 11:39:38 PM »

Immortal Techique
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2005, 11:40:36 PM »

Quote
All right, you boyz are scarin' me out.  Da worst I evuh listened to was Depeche Mode and U2 and no b*tches or homeys got shot or stabbed.  Word.

Ahh man, I have always been a big Depeche Mode and U2 fan......hope none of ya'll's b*tch slap me for being a wussy lol.. Grin
I'm actually a fan of most good music. Lately I've been diggin' Korn, Deftones, ColdPlay and the Beasties of late.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2005, 11:42:00 PM »

NWA

CB4

 Wink

Straight outta locash.

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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2005, 02:06:05 AM »

Quote
Fr. Stan Fortuna

LOL

my MOM actually gave me his CD....i barely got thru it once, but i still own it...somewhere....lol.
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2005, 02:09:47 AM »



Ahh man, I have always been a big Depeche Mode and U2 fan......hope none of ya'll's b*tch slap me for being a wussy lol.. Grin
I'm actually a fan of most good music. Lately I've been diggin' Korn, Deftones, ColdPlay and the Beasties of late.
It's OK.  Depeche Mode has always been one of my favorites as well.
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2005, 08:00:18 AM »

Josh, you can be MC Gusto. 
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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2005, 12:46:58 PM »

Josh, you can be MC Gusto.

When I'm in your neighborhood you better dig a mote.

You're dead mike.

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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2005, 01:13:26 PM »



And you can prove that how? Maybe PhosZoe knows something you don't.


Actually, it's in the hands of the original poster to prove that Mike D is Neil Diamond's son, but I hope this item from the Beastie Boys faq puts this ridiculous assertion to rest.
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2005, 02:16:33 PM »

Man... AM I SHOCKED TO SEE THIS DISCUSSION HERE!!!!  Grin

More importantly... our beloved ANASTASIOS is infected with the *bacterium* of Hip-Hop and Serbian Turbo Folk!  Wink

Sorry but I'm a OLD SERBIAN NATIONALIST TYPE MUSIC LOVER.... nothing like some Ko to kaze, ko to laze....  Evil

As for the Hip-Hop... sorry to disappoint... but I love it.  Top 5 of all time..

1.   Dr. Dre  (not because he's the greatest rapper, but when you take his beats + The Chronic + NWA + World Class Wrecking crew) he is just the man.

2.   Tupac

3.    Biggie

4.    Nas

5.    Tie -  Jay Z, Rakim Eminem

Honorable mention....

Whodini, Run DMC, UTFO Crew, Kurtis Blow

To soon to tell

50
The Game
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I still can't believe ANASTASIOS listens to the junk!!! LOL
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2005, 02:30:54 PM »



And you can prove that how? Maybe PhosZoe knows something you don't.

"1.12 - Is Dustin Diamond, the dude who plays Screech in that TV show, Saved By The Bell, really Mike D's brother?

Although they look the same and do share the same last name they aren't related. Mike is not related to Neil Diamond either."
http://www.musicfanclubs.org/beastieboys/faq.htm#112

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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2005, 02:32:02 PM »

1. Dr. Dre (not because he's the greatest rapper, but when you take his beats + The Chronic + NWA + World Class Wrecking crew) he is just the man.

2. Tupac

3. Biggie

4. Nas

5. Tie - Jay Z, Rakim Eminem

Honorable mention....

Whodini, Run DMC, UTFO Crew, Kurtis Blow

To soon to tell

50
The Game
Jadakiss

I still can't believe ANASTASIOS listens to the junk!!! LOL

Do you listen to any underground/progressive/alternative hip-hop?
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2005, 02:39:48 PM »

M777,

No.  No & No.  Wink

I actually use to listen to a lot of underground stuff when I was much younger (you can't avoid it in NYC), but I really don't anymore.  Pure commercial content only (although you get the odd underground artist if you're buying a mixtape off the streets of Brooklyn).
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2005, 03:12:28 PM »




Actually, it's in the hands of the original poster to prove that Mike D is Neil Diamond's son, but I hope this item from the Beastie Boys faq puts this ridiculous assertion to rest.

Ok I was wrong.  I googled up the same information much later.
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2005, 04:16:47 PM »

Don't forget DMX!
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2005, 04:19:07 PM »

I'm partial to Dee Dee King, myself.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2005, 05:01:26 PM »

Didn't Tupac change his name to Singlepac in his later years? laugh
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« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2005, 05:19:16 PM »



Whatever. We are discussing the artistic merit of such albums. Note that I said it was unfortunate the amount of profanity used, etc. I actually don't really listen to rap music all that much anymore anyway, because I recognize that it can be spiritually dangerous. Your last line--my "response"--is actually quite ridiculous and shows you don't really care what my response would be so I give up and won't be saying anything else.

Anastasios
Anastasios I was actually joking with that last line which is from the song "Dre Day" on the Chronic album which is why I thought you would get the joke.
Thank goodness you do not listen to Chronic album but I still cannot understand what artistic merit that album had.
Sorry if I offended you but I tend to take this seriously because most of the people, usually middle-class or better, who debate the artistic merits of rap music have never lived in poverty and have no idea what it is like. This particularly unnerves because a lot of kids listen to rap and become little monsters. Try walking through any ghetto. There are kids eight and nine years old that already call women 'b**ches and h**s," carry knives in their pockets, and are very violent. Rap music does not help this situation and usually makes it worse.
How can the 'hip-hop lifestyle' be reconciled with Orthodoxy? I really just cannot understand that. The people I knew who were into that sold drugs, drove around drunk and high all afternoon, and were in and out of jail for dumb stuff a lot. How can it be good to promote such a lifestyle.
Anastasios I am interested in your opinion and sorry for the joke.
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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2005, 05:37:47 PM »



This is exactly what Bible-belt fundamentalists said about jazz, blues and then rock music. This does not stem from the music itself but the racial stereotypes associated with the music.
Matthew no offense but you do not know where I am from or what I was doing in high school. I am not a racist or a bigot. I grew up with people of different races and my best friend is Mexican. I listened to gangsta rap from the time I was eight years old. When the "Chronic" and "Doggystyle" came out I was all over it. Things just got worse after that. By the time I was in high school I was doing dumb stuff everyday. Everytime I was out riding it was gangsta rap that was heard down the block.
If anyone knows what Rap music makes you feell like doing and what it does to your mind I do.
Furthermore I am not a Fundamentalist. I am not looking through Mr.Ed lyrics to find Satanism. When youngmen can think of nothing more then 'gettin' busy' something is wrong.

There is no way the Beastie Boy could ever be "gangsta" Mike D. AKA Michael Diamond is the son of Neil Diamond.

Also, since when is Rancid punk? If the band was born post 1985 it's post punk. The actual scene died long before you were born.
Actually the Beastie Boys album "Check Your Head" was gangsta in a lot of ways. I remember that when my friend and I first heard the album we could not stop laughing at that skit with the guy named Chico. What fools we were.
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« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2005, 06:03:05 PM »

The most respected group seems to be Niggers With Attitudes (NWA). Either that or Dre, who probably had the largest hand in turning countless thousands of suburban Christian kids into sexed-up, drug-taking, gangster thug-wanna-bes. Anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating probably didn't go to school in a mostly white, suburban or rural, high school in the 1990's.

This thread is enough to make you question why people even participate at discussion fora.

PS. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to sit around talking about NWA when the forum censors the first word in that name (in the singular at least). I get the feeling that Robert is changing that to include the plural as we speak though, so if "I'm a racist" appears in the above post, that will be the reason. Guess it's part of the uniform look the OC.net wants to be famed for Tongue You better not mispell a word in a thread title... but hey, we'll insert words about you being a racist all we want if you say w i g g e r or something  Evil
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« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2005, 06:13:28 PM »

The most respected group seems to be Niggers With Attitudes (NWA). Either that or Dre, who probably had the largest hand in turning countless thousands of suburban Christian kids into sexed-up, drug-taking, gangster thug-wanna-bes. Anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating probably didn't go to school in a mostly white, suburban or rural, high school in the 1990's.

This thread is enough to make you question why people even participate at discussion fora.

PS. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to sit around talking about NWA when the forum censors the first word in that name (in the singular at least). I get the feeling that Robert is changing that to include the plural as we speak though, so if "I'm a racist" appears in the above post, that will be the reason. Guess it's part of the uniform look the OC.net wants to be famed for Tongue You better not mispell a word in a thread title... but hey, we'll insert words about you being a racist all we want if you say w i g g e r or something  Evil

HA! It didn't change.

Altho, I'm not for censoring speech, I think another admin added those word filters.

NIGGER
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« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2005, 06:19:45 PM »

Quote
Guess it's part of the uniform look the OC.net wants to be famed for  You better not mispell a word in a thread title... but hey, we'll insert words about you being a racist all we want if you say w i g g e r or something

Justin,

You are so fun to talk to sometimes Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2005, 09:18:10 PM »

C'mon guys, lighten up... not everything in this world is so serious.

I grew up terribly poor, most friends were visible minorities (as a matter of happenstance because of socio-economic reasons), got into a lot of trouble as a kid (the kind that young people often get into) and listened almost exclusively to rap. Never did drugs, never b*tch slapped a h* because I knew the difference between life and entertainment (dare I say "art"). At the end of the day, I had a strong family to give me the realities of right and wrong. Dre's Chronic wasn't going to turn me into a gang banger, heck, it wasn't even enough to make me wear silly baggy pants. Wink

The fact that anyone needs to chastise anyone else for the music they listen to... don't we have better things to do with our time???

PS - I guess about the worst thing I did was become a trial lawyer... but you can hardly blame that on Dre and Tupac.
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« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2005, 11:18:21 PM »

The most respected group seems to be Niggers With Attitudes (NWA).

Um, I believe that's Niggaz. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2005, 01:14:59 AM »

How is it that nobody has mentioned Joe Budden?!?!  Huh  Shocked

Shame on you! Tongue

It's because of Fitty cents that he slipped under the radar and nobody paid him any attention.

It's too bad commercialism triumphs over quality!
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« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2005, 01:39:38 AM »

WHAT !!!!!!! NO LOVE FOR ICE -T!!!!!  THE ORIGINAL GANGTER?HuhHuh
   Just kiddin.Though ther are a FEW positive , consious artist in the biz today,  I too left behind the rap thing (see St. Moses prior to his convertion) . It stimulates the passions ( for me at least) of lust and hate too much .I also find it to largely offencive to Mother of God and my daughter. I lack the ability to separate the music from life. Now when I wake up I hear, Glory to God, " AS MANY HAVE BEEN BAPTISTED INTO CHRIST.."  instead of " Kill those niggas..blah, blah ,blah.........fuck them bitches..blah, blah, blah,... it may seem harmless, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

                             +++    MOSES
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« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2005, 01:41:56 AM »

umm , dude ..I didn`t write "fool"
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« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2005, 12:11:28 PM »

How can the 'hip-hop lifestyle' be reconciled with Orthodoxy? I really just cannot understand that. The people I knew who were into that sold drugs, drove around drunk and high all afternoon, and were in and out of jail for dumb stuff a lot. How can it be good to promote such a lifestyle.
Anastasios I am interested in your opinion and sorry for the joke.

There is a huge difference between the "gangster lifestyle" and good hip-hop. Most of the hip-hop music that I listen to does not involve gangster themes. Listen to some Grits for some Christian hip-hop.
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« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2005, 05:31:21 PM »

Thanks for backing me up Paradosis and I do remember seeing a lot of rich white kids acting gangsta back when Snoop Dogg was in. Of course we all thought they looked like idiots whenever we would see them driving by in expensive cars with their stereos blaring. It makes me wonder what on earth was going on in their minds and how they could possibly relate to any of the lyrics. I don't think too many rich kids have to worry about getting beatin up for walking around at night.
WHAT !!!!!!! NO LOVE FOR ICE -T!!!!! THE ORIGINAL GANGTER?HuhHuh?
 Just kiddin.Though ther are a FEW positive , consious artist in the biz today, I too left behind the rap thing (see St. Moses prior to his convertion) . It stimulates the passions ( for me at least) of lust and hate too much .I also find it to largely offencive to Mother of God and my daughter. I lack the ability to separate the music from life. Now when I wake up I hear, Glory to God, " AS MANY HAVE BEEN BAPTISTED INTO CHRIST.." instead of " Kill those niggas..blah, blah ,blah.........fool them bitches..blah, blah, blah,... it may seem harmless, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 +++ MOSES
Thank You for that comment Moses. It is good to know someone else gets it.


There is a huge difference between the "gangster lifestyle" and good hip-hop. Most of the hip-hop music that I listen to does not involve gangster themes. Listen to some Grits for some Christian hip-hop.
I hear this a lot and I do agree that you are right about this but still you hear enough innocuous hip-hop you may end up liking gangsta rap because of the similarity of beats. Even though I know it is really harmless in many ways and probably wouldn't inspire anyone to do bad things it is still exciting the passions and should not be listened to constantly. Whenever someone gets the point of listening to five hours a day of any kind of popular music something is a little screwy.

Once again I am not a fundamentalist but I think that it is better not to listen to rap music, or any contemporary popular music for that matter, because it excites the passions particularly when listened to often.

The only reason I commented at all was when I started seeing albums like the "Chronic" being discussed like that is the kind of music a Christian listens to.
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« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2005, 05:39:18 PM »

Thanks for backing me up Paradosis and I do remember seeing a lot of rich white kids acting gangsta back when Snoop Dogg was in. Of course we all thought they looked like idiots whenever we would see them driving by in expensive cars with their stereos blaring. It makes me wonder what on earth was going on in their minds and how they could possibly relate to any of the lyrics. I don't think too many rich kids have to worry about getting beatin up for walking around at night.


As for how contemporary music excites the passions, so will riding in an roller coaster, holding a girl's hand, or almost anything worth enjoying. Listening to Mozart excites the passions. Being an Orthodox Christian does not mean having to live in a cave. 
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« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2005, 07:42:42 PM »

As for the Hip-Hop... sorry to disappoint... but I love it. Top 5 of all time..

1. Dr. Dre (not because he's the greatest rapper, but when you take his beats + The Chronic + NWA + World Class Wrecking crew) he is just the man.

2. Tupac

3. Biggie

4. Nas

5. Tie - Jay Z, Rakim Eminem


I agree with 1, 2, and 4 (not in any order), but can't really say about the others.  I'm not partial to Biggie, and Jay-Z is sometimes good, sometimes not so good.  I don't have a top five list, but I'd add NWA and Snoop.

Anyone ever listen to Tony Touch?   
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« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2005, 09:05:31 PM »

Did anybody mention Slick Rick?
   Matthew: Lighten up dude. I am not suggesting that we live in caves . We are not monks on Athos. And truth be known, I still own that first N.W.A. album ( yes , album ..it was that long ago ) and I bought that first fifty cent CD. I have never heard of Christian rap but as I have already stated , I know that not all rap is gangster related. But the majority of it today IS gangster themed . It`s your thing, do what you gotta do Afro . And the things that I now say come from first hand experience ( convert with a "questionable" past...me ) just be careful,brother, because the words and the music WILL influence your thoughts , your heart , and your soul.
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« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2005, 09:34:07 PM »

just be careful,brother, because the words and the music WILL influence your thoughts , your heart , and your soul.

I listen to the Beastie Boys, who are essentially a comedy-rap group, I listen to Christian hip-hop groups who focus on Christ-centered themes, and the Roots who rap  about political/racial issues.
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« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2005, 09:55:09 PM »


As for how contemporary music excites the passions, so will riding in an roller coaster, holding a girl's hand, or almost anything worth enjoying. Listening to Mozart excites the passions. Being an Orthodox Christian does not mean having to live in a cave.
Good Joke! I have considered seeing that movie. Maybe I will this summer if I am not busy. There was another semi-serious movie called "White Boys" that my brother saw. He said it was funny but also very accurate about wiggers . . . or is it wiggaz?

But seriously I have had girlfriends, gone on roller coasters, and I probably listen to Wagner and Debussy a little too much. Being an Orthodox Christian should at least mean moderation. All I am saying is that there is better music out there. I can talk about the 'shivery heights' of "Tristan und Isolde" but I certainly cannot say that about Ski lo or Cypress Hill. I am not saying you should live in a cave but that as Orthodox Christians we should be careful of wasting our time in worldly pursuits whether it is rap music or classical. I remember that St.John of Kronstadt used to criticize the nobility for spending too much time at plays and operas.
I admit that I am definitely far from the ideal and probably enjoy eating dinner and drinking beer with my friends too much but still I am just reiterating what I have been told and read. I have no reason to question the wisdom of the Fathers.


I listen to the Beastie Boys, who are essentially a comedy-rap group, I listen to Christian hip-hop groups who focus on Christ-centered themes, and the Roots who rap about political/racial issues.
I have only heard one rap song with Christ centered themes. Somehow it didn't seem like rap. I think I have heard the Roots a few times but I cannot remember what political persuasion they were. As for the Beastie Boys being comedians, I would say that is true now and in the beginning but not always.
And the things that I now say come from first hand experience ( convert with a "questionable" past...me ) just be careful,brother, because the words and the music WILL influence your thoughts , your heart , and your soul.
Good advice!
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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2005, 02:10:32 AM »

I have no reason to question the wisdom of the Fathers.

Oh, yes. I believe it was Augustine who once stated, "The good Christian should beware the hip-hop artist and all those who bust rhymes and scratch turntables. The danger already exists that the rappers have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell."

 
                                                     
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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2005, 09:33:38 AM »

I agree with all yall (ATL influence) and hip-hop shouldn't be the central part of anyones life (but I think you can say the same about listening to Barry Manilow to).

Like I said earlier, I think it is entirely personal.  I grew up on the stuff, but never let it influence my life.  In fact, I always got a kick out of the kids (especially the white ones) that dressed the part.  Inevitably, you have a "hip-hop" discussion with one of them and find out there knowledge of hip-hop goes back about 4 years.

Truth is, I liked hip-hop before it became "popular" and "trendy" to like it.  I liked it, when everyone was listening to Rock.  Back in the early eighties, I even got called "Disco-Boy" for liking hip-hop (it shows you how well versed the "rockers" were in hip hop). 

In the end, I can appreciate some of the concerns some have.  It just wasn't that way for me.

Mo,

Slick Rick... a legend... can't believe I left him off my list (Children's story is one of my all time fav's).

Mor Ephrem,

To me NWA is better recognzied as "pioneers" of gangsta rap, rather than great music.  I think Dre really found his grove after he left (although I suppose I can see that there is an argument that his best work was done with NWA).

About Snoop.... I feel like I only like his "Dre Produced" stuff.  Even now with Pharrel, I just don't love his stuff.  When he came out on The Chronic, I thought he might be the best ever, but the whole Master P, No Limit debacle really brought him down, IMHO.
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« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2005, 12:18:05 PM »



Oh, yes. I believe it was Augustine who once stated, "The good Christian should beware the hip-hop artist and all those who bust rhymes and scratch turntables. The danger already exists that the rappers have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell."

 
 
Good joke. But seriously, I know that St.Augustine did comment on music at one point but I cannot remember what work. I already mentioned St.Nikodemos the Hagiorite. His work that I am thinking of in particular is Spiritual Counsels. Read the chapter on the sense of hearing.

I agree with all yall (ATL influence) and hip-hop shouldn't be the central part of anyones life (but I think you can say the same about listening to Barry Manilow to).

Like I said earlier, I think it is entirely personal. I grew up on the stuff, but never let it influence my life. In fact, I always got a kick out of the kids (especially the white ones) that dressed the part. Inevitably, you have a "hip-hop" discussion with one of them and find out there knowledge of hip-hop goes back about 4 years.

Truth is, I liked hip-hop before it became "popular" and "trendy" to like it. I liked it, when everyone was listening to Rock. Back in the early eighties, I even got called "Disco-Boy" for liking hip-hop (it shows you how well versed the "rockers" were in hip hop).

In the end, I can appreciate some of the concerns some have. It just wasn't that way for me.
I am glad to hear it was not that way for you. I think a big part of it might have been because you started listening to rap before it turned gangsta. Though I am not sure when exactly the gangsta thing can be said to have started. 1988? NWA was hardcore but one of its lyrics in "Express yourself," I think that was the title of the song, goes, " . . . never smoke weed or ses 'cause it only give a brother brain damage . . . " which was actually sung by Dr.Dre who later named his first album The Chronic! That never fails to surprise people who think they know rap history. I suppose the release of the "Chronic" and "Doggystyle" marks where I place the beginning of the gangsta thing or at least the point when it became 'mainstream.' But the really gangsta stuff, seriously talks about selling drugs and killing people for fun, never really became mainstream. I am talking about guys like Brother Lynch and Dayton Avenue. For instance the chorus of one of Dayton Avenue's songs is, "Runnin in runnin out taking cocaine out ya house." I cannot see that being played on MTV.
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« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2005, 12:27:18 PM »

Sabbas,

    I agree with what you say... I think a big part of it is also that I wasn't raised a "knucklehead"... meaning I knew the difference between right and wrong.

    I also think guys like Dre, Diddy, Russel Simmons etc.. are business men more than anything else.  In ways they exploit the weakness of society to benefit their personal bank accounts.

    Think about it with Dre and Eminem.  Dre plucks this white kid out of Detroit (or surrounding areas), knows he's going to be ultra offensive, he's got rapping skills and he knows suburban white America is going to buy his records (big time).

     Eminem was to Dr. Dre, what the Happy Meal use to be to McDonald's.  Too much of either is not very good for you, but they certainly put a lot of money is their bosses bank accounts.

     I also had an opportunity to represent Rush Communications (parent of Def Jam) in a legal matter.  I had an opportunity to meet and speak with Russel Simmons and his CFO.  What was most amazing about Russel is that he may be a corporate gangster, but he is not a street gangster.  My impression is that these guys are ALL about making the green, if that means exploitation, they'll do it... but that is another story.
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« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2005, 02:48:08 PM »

Sweet...

The Grits
Lyrics - They All Fall Down

*coffee*
Blood curdling truth
Working the word in as proof
Besides mine the guidlines of righteous paths taken
Tremendous speaking, fresh out the kitchen
And never switching from the homegrown
Hole it down like the ozone
This is for the playa playa
Make ya holla holla
The kid with no morals
Sell his mama for a dollar
They all fall down
They all fall down
They all fall down
They all fall
I've compiled this alongside with bone
So you can file this under for the opposing a nihilist
Doubt what you know nothing about reactionary
Belief in the scripture's fulfillment are contrary
To popular belief
Hellbound in a basket
Sucking on their teeth
Wound up in a casket
At close, you froze
Already chose the doors you go trough
The life you chose to lead
Determines the place you go to

*hook*
To the naked, untrained eye
Who can't see time fly by
Revolving on a carousel
Living life like a modern day fairytale...
Slow mo', urgent message gets a no-go
What fo'
Can't nobody tell you
Everything is lovey dovey
Till your plans fall through...
They all fall down -x3-
They all fall

*coffee*
Lay it down flat
The ins and outs of this business
Oral with my morals
Things i say seem pretentious
Show change
I ain't deranged
To be looked upon strange
Like the dames in the verbs joint (shoot, we the factors)
You ain't know neah
Rally all my troops in GI Joe gear
Arsenals and weapons abundant
Stop me if I sound redundant

*bonafide*
Sound redundant
Man please appease me
Repeat yourself
Most folks scared of the truth
Living lies
Fooling themselves and everyone surrounding
Deception of perception blind
To what self did deep down
Deep down beyond the black hole
of the soul in control

*hook*
They all fall -x2-

*bonafide*
I was surrounded by the darkness
Of the hearts of mens
Plots for spots to roll rovers
Controlling blocks and lots on top
Where I was charted to be
But failing to see truth
Behind the lies of eyes
Handling G's
They squeeze until my soul was unloaded
Holding to nothing
But folded bills
Concealed like weapons looking to kill
My mind filled
With thrills and pleasures
Life could offer
Walked amongst the dead
Laid to rest in a coffin
Nocturnal destiny
Leading to my eternity
Hourly concerning me
Yet I wasn't yearned
To be all of what
His calling said to be
And bred to be
Actually I thought it was all about me
Took for granted what was handed by the unseen
Invested all my time and effort
Building C
Appealing to my desires
And lustful feelings
Thinking I could make it by the grace of God
Straight disgrace the face of God

*hook*
They all fall -x2-

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« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2005, 02:48:46 PM »

Well, having read this stuff I'm happy to say I never liked hip-hop. Where I come from the poor kids listened to George Jones and Willie Nelson. I thought punk was bad. Right now I'm listening to The Toasters. No worries about drug references or other weird stuff. There are some references to fighting, I suppose.

Sabbas,

Wagner? Man, it may as well be hip-hop or punk. As Latin as it is, I've been finding myself listening to Palestrina, Desprez and Tallis lately. I have no idea why. If you want something really fantastic, try "Morimur" with the Hilliard Ensemble and Christoph Poppen on baroque violin. http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Hilliard-Morimur.htm

It's a little controversial, and I know it's Bach, but I find it hard to beat. I don't mind the recording technique as being "new agey" because I think they capture the essence of the sound.
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« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2005, 02:53:37 PM »

I'm still trying to figure out which is more violent.... Hip-Hop are Serbian War Songs! lol  Wink
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« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2005, 03:50:07 PM »

I listen to rap once in awhile but I'm a bit suprised so many hear like it that much. How hard can it be to compose a few beats? I think the lyrics and getting the timing down is probably the hardest, but come on I wouldn't even compare these groups to real artist that play real instruments.
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« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2005, 03:57:04 PM »

I think the lyrics and getting the timing down is probably the hardest, but come on I wouldn't even compare these groups to real artist that play real instruments.

The Roots, Jurassic 5 and the Beastie Boys make their own beats and play their own instruments.
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« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2005, 09:24:05 PM »

Matthew,

Grits are okay, but Christianity or Christian related concepts aren’t exactly the central themes of their songs, they just have the odd couple of references every now and then.

If you want to listen to some serious Christian hip-hop I suggest you check out Cross Movement. Here are some of their lyrics:

From "Closer to you":

God, I say you’re the greatest light of my life
Your cross, the greatest sight of my life
When I believed, the greatest night of my life
Since then it’s the fight of my life, to get at You

...

GǪ‘cause I’m a model of the man
who be following the plan
But like the hood be saying,
“Yo, holla at your man!”
You say, “holla at your God,”
and read the love letter I inspired,
You’re never satisfied until you’re wit me
And it gets me:
I study with zeal and with energy,
on a mission to affect the industry
mature in the faith, and I’m active in the ministry,
All that, and I can still hear you saying to me

Hook:
I wanna be closer to you
I wanna be to be your heart’s desire
I want to be #1
even though you play Me shy

I wanna be closer to you
I wanna be all you need
So won’t you give Me a try
and watch Me change your life

Goodness gracious, Lord. Anybody in the hood ever taste this before?
Ever been chased by the Lord? Embraced by the warmth of the Son
then end up with their face to the floor?
I love what you cooked up to make me look up
Said I could pick your brain if I picked your book up
And ever since the day you and I hooked up
Life has been super-fly like Jimmy Snuka
But I know you want more than Sundays more than clich+¬s
What you want is for me to obey
And if I can’t give that then I can’t give jack
You don’t want just my hands without my heart attached

Without a heart to match, my lip service is dead as artifacts
though I call it worship
And with no ring on my hands and as a single young man
there’s more to give and I can still hear you saying to me

From "What do you see":

Concentrate, your mind should stay in study mode
Tell your buddies, “roll” as you contemplate the bloody robe
Which was worn by the One beaten and torn
Killed by the same dust people He’d formed
But He emptied Himself---paused the wealth
Put independent use of His attributes on the shelf
Loving men who weren’t loving Him but were loving sin
Loving gin, lovin’ a night at the club again ...

...But back to the ugliest things you’ve ever heard of
The murder of the One who took more flack than Roberta
They came in droves the enemy had His veins exposed
they played a game where they claimed His robe
...Only Providence helped Him sustain the blows
Are you seeing the One who owns it all?
The King getting beaten in the Roman halls
Headed for a Roman cross, and heaven is His home and all
But He wouldn’t give His home a call
Soon to dislocate His bones and all
And still wouldn’t wish for His opponents fall

GǪGǪ

No time to blink, but just continue to think of Scripture
Let it convict ya, focus get in to picture
Watch it blow you square off the rector
As it teaches you of the real Victor
Who prevails, you hear the crucifixion details
Now ask yourself why’s your life still derailed
And why we fail to live for the One we nailed
This same Jesus, you know the One we Hail
With lips but not with lives
Time see with the heart and not with our eyes

Peace.
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« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2005, 09:39:27 PM »

dude....the modern gangsta-rap and post-gangsta-rap industry are tools of the elitist/white/Freemasonic/Disney moguls to perpetuate stereotypes about African-Americans....and unfortunately, America's youth has swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker.....What ever happened to real rap groups who tell it like it is, like Public Enemy or Boogie Down Productions?
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« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2005, 10:15:10 PM »

Matthew,

Grits are okay, but Christianity or Christian related concepts aren’t exactly the central themes of their songs, they just have the odd couple of references every now and then.

I own Grammatical Revolution and I would have to disagree. Their lyrics are definitely Christ-inspired, though the deaper meaning is sometimes implied rather than directly stated. Sometimes, that actually halps the message to get across better.
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« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2005, 10:48:00 PM »

Hmmm........Christian themed rap? I have heard the Gospel Gangsta's are pretty good. Might want to check them out. Also, another awesome Christian band is Spoken....I highly recommend their 2nd album which is there self titled album. They sound just like Rage Against The Machine I kid you not. There is not one bad song on that album.
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« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2005, 10:53:55 PM »

Speaking of Christian rap... What about TOBY MAC?!!! Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2005, 05:47:47 PM »

dude....the modern gangsta-rap and post-gangsta-rap industry are tools of the elitist/white/Freemasonic/Disney moguls to perpetuate stereotypes about African-Americans....and unfortunately, America's youth has swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker.....What ever happened to real rap groups who tell it like it is, like Public Enemy or Boogie Down Productions?

Ditto that.
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« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2005, 06:34:17 PM »

boys - can't deal with the 'dude' stuff up there- so american

anyway, if you wanna now what the real gangsters, the ones locked up in prisons listen to, then its gotta be Nas and Roots
just to let you know

Personally I am stil hocked on De la Soul, and hey, what about the French Stuff?! Its beautifull how the language flows while the beats pump, and now problems with bad language, since at least I cant understand it!
But in terms of text, if there are any german speakers out there, check 'Tag am Meer' by the unforgettable Fantastischen Vier!

Christian rap, I don't know man. If I wanna hear hymns there is nothing, not in text nor melody that can compete with it, and if I wanna hear hip hop, then thats something completly different! Two worlds appoart.

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« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2005, 08:04:41 PM »

MANGO......WOA, DUDE ...THANKS FOR HIPPING US HERE IN AMERICA TO WHAT IS POLITICALLY "GANSTER RAP" CORRECT Roll Eyes
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« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2005, 08:38:36 PM »

Two worlds appoart.

I would beg to differ. Check out Furthermore, now that is good stuff:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/artist/glance/-/209222/ref=m_art_dp/104-7458664-6955159
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« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2005, 09:19:46 PM »

What about Kanye West???  I see promise in Kanye...

He's just a little misled by a Protestant upbringing.  We'll convert him to Orthodoxy (maybe Mase to) and we'll have him do a new and theologically correct version  of "Jesus Walks".  Evil

Just for record... if Kanye is converting, the Serbian Orthodox Church has dibs, on account of my idea (plus he's from second Serbia... Chicago). lol
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« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2005, 06:50:42 PM »

WOA, DUDE ...THANKS FOR HIPPING US HERE IN AMERICA TO WHAT IS POLITICALLY "GANSTER RAP" CORRECT Roll Eyes
Quote

Jo, Mo the Ethio,
your more than welcome. But I'm for sure not a DUDE, Darling, I'm a chick.
Just for the record, since its completly off the subject.
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« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2005, 08:06:15 PM »

Sabbas, I bet the Middle-eastern music which Jesus enjoyed had the same "primal" beats that you speak of, as do the native musics of Orthodox Christian countries.
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« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2005, 05:46:53 PM »

Sabbas, I bet the Middle-eastern music which Jesus enjoyed had the same "primal" beats that you speak of, as do the native musics of Orthodox Christian countries.
“For my thoughts are
not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens
are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than
your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

And we cannot(7), if we wish to be accurate, speak of Christ as having judgment (gnwmh) and preference(8 ). For judgment is a disposition with reference to the decision arrived at after investigation and deliberation concerning something unknown, that is to say, after counsel and decision. And after judgment comes preference(9), which chooses out and selects the one rather than the other. But the Lord being not mere man but also God, and knowing all things, had no need of inquiry. and investigation, and counsel, and decision, and by nature made whatever is good His own and whatever is bad foreign to Him(1). For thus says Isaiah the prophet, Before the child shall know to prefer the evil, he shall choose the good; because before the child knows good or evil, he refuses wickedness by choosing the good(2). For the word "before" proves that it is not with investigation and deliberation, as is the way with us, but as God and as subsisting in a divine manner in the flesh, that is to say, being united in subsistence to the flesh, and because of His very existence and all-embracing knowledge, that He is possessed of good in His own nature.
St.John of Damascus The Orthodox Faith

It is blasphemous to speak of the Lord as if he were just a 'Middle-Eastern' guy and it is even worse to speak of the Lord enjoying music in the way created human beings do.

As for this on-going debate about why passionate music is not good spiritually you should consider that there is no mention of the Lord laughing, dancing, or listening to folk music in the Gospels nor praise for wordly living throughout the New Testament. You can also consult the Fathers
"Do not submit your souls to corrupt melodies that come to us through the ears. Many passions that enslave us have been have been caused to grow in our natures by this sort of music."
-St.Basil the Great "Address to the Young Men"
As a young man I think you should take his advice Matthew. I could of course go on and mention other Fathers and quote the whole first portion of Chapter Four "Guarding the Sense of Hearing" from St.Nikodemos the Hagiorite's book Spiritual Counsels which is specifically about the spiritual problems caused by listening to hedonistic music but I doubt it would change your mind.
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« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2005, 10:13:40 PM »

I don't mean to diverge from the hip hop topic, but has anyone ever looked at Place of Skulls website?  www.placeofskulls.com  I would really like to hear an Orthodox perspective on it.  Their singer is born-again now, after years in metal bands.  One of the guys from Spirit Caravan was in POS, and I'm a huge Spirit Caravan fan.  This music quandry tortures me beyond belief!  I only listened to chant during Lent, and it wasn't hard, but I'm still going to see Dixie Witch this month!  I don't know, the angriest punk music never made me feel "unreligious"  It certainly made me angry at other things, but not religion.  I think part of the problem is, since the seventies really, youth culture is so much defined by what you listen to.  It associates with a group, or sets you apart (you know, 'I listen to band no one has every heard of.') 
I'm sorry to jump in here, but I struggle with this subject, and it's interesting to hear other ideas and experiences.
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« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2005, 02:44:37 AM »

It is blasphemous to speak of the Lord as if he were just a 'Middle-Eastern' guy and it is even worse to speak of the Lord enjoying music in the way created human beings do.

Think of Jesus at the wedding of Canna. He's enjoying His company, sipping some good wine, and I'm sure He was enjoying the music also. Jesus had a divine nature but He also had a human nature that was able to enjoy life.
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« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2005, 07:48:53 PM »

On this website, you can download NWA's album Straight Outta Compton with everything edited out EXCEPT FOR the cuss words!
http://www.blog.ni9e.com/archives/2005/03/explicit_conten_1.html

Funny stuff.  Afro
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« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2005, 08:35:18 PM »

There ought to be an Orthodox remake of that record.
 Instead of "F**K THE POLICE" ..it should be "F**K THE EVIL ONE", and " STRAIGHT OUTA ATHOS"...etc...
 To those I`ve offended ..forgive me.   
  CHRIST IS RISEN!!!!!!!!!!!!  +++
     
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« Reply #98 on: May 18, 2005, 12:22:46 PM »

There ought to be an Orthodox remake of that record.
 Instead of "F**K THE POLICE" ..it should be "F**K THE EVIL ONE", and " STRAIGHT OUTA ATHOS"...etc...

Badass  Cool
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« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2005, 01:06:37 AM »

In case anyone is interested in underground Christian hip-hop, Dirt is as good a brotha as any:
http://www.intheholehegoes.com/

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« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2005, 07:29:36 PM »

I am not trying to judge anyone, but could you see our Lord Jesus Christ listen to any of these groups?
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« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2005, 10:18:07 PM »

Given that Holy Hip-Hop gives praise to Jesus Christ, I'd assume that He'd be rather pleased.
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« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2005, 03:20:05 PM »

I just wrote a hip-hop song for Jesus. Check this out:

Holy Paraclete, bless this beat
Move your feet, feel the holy heat.
The Lord Yahweh blessed this day
so stand up Hey! rejoice and say

Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest
Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest

You know what it's like to be a sinner
but Christ's atonement makes you a winner.
You know what it's like to feel dead inside
so let the Lord God humble your pride.
You know what it's like to feel dead inside
so let the Lord be your spiritual guide.

Crime don't pay.
That's why I kneel and pray,
that my brothas will repent
Forgiveness is heaven-sent.

Crime don't pay
and neither will false gods save the day
so put your pentagrams away
and you'll soon feel okay.

There is no MC who rocks a party quite like JC
so come with me and He'll set you free.
He is worthy of the praise we bring
so come along and sing praise to the King.

Receieve the Eucharist and persist in your quest for holiness.
Receive the Eucharist, you can't resist this blessed kiss
so unclench your fist, you can't fight this.

Yeshua the Messiah, gonna bring us higher
Yeshua the Messiah, the Lamb ain't no liar
Glory be to the Father,
give Him all your honor (Word to your mother!)
Glory be to the Son,
He is the Holy One.
Glory be to the Spirit
Brotha, can you feel it?

Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest
Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest

Our Father who art in Heaven, hollowed be thy name
who rests on day number seven, give him all the fame.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on heaven and on earth.
Give up your gun, accept the Son, the source of endless mirth.
Give us this day our daily bread,
excellent like Bill and Ted
Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,
Oh King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
Free us from temptation, deliver us from the Evil One
You are my liberation with the blood of the Son,
For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory
now and everlasting.
Yo homeboys, are my rhymes a-blasting?

Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest
Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest
Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest
Hosanna in the highest
cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest, cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest,
cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest. cuz Jesus Christ is the tighest,

Jesus Christ is the- Wha?
I said Jesus Christ is the tightest!
I can rap for the Lord,
even though I'm the whitest!

Peace out.
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« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2005, 03:23:36 AM »

Quote
I just wrote a hip-hop song for Jesus. Check this out:

Don't quit your day job!   Evil  :tongue2:
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« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2005, 03:33:52 AM »

Quote
Yeshua the Messiah, gonna bring us higher


Are you rapping for Messianics or something?
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« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2005, 03:36:43 AM »

Quote
Yo homeboys, are my rhymes a-blasting?

Homeboy, I suggest from rhymes you try a-fasting (forever)
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« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2005, 03:40:25 AM »

Quote
Homeboy, I suggest from rhymes you try a-fasting (forever)

 LOLOLOL :laugh3:   laugh
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« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2005, 03:45:17 AM »

Are you rapping for Messianics or something?

Not only did it rhyme but Yeshua is his Hebrew name. Wink
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« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2005, 02:22:44 PM »

This is the cheesiest hip-hop song ever but it is also kind of fun:

Snow:
INFORMER LYRICS   
What’s up man! hey yo what’s up!
Yeah what’s goin’ on here.
Sick an’ tired of five-oh runnin’ up on the block here.
You know what I’m sayin’?
Yo snow, they came around here lookin’ for you the other day.
Word? word! bust it!

Chorus
Informer, you no say daddy me snow me I’ll go blame,
A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
A licky boom boom down.
Informer, you no say daddy me snow me I’ll go blame,
A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
A licky boom boom down.

Police them come an’ now they blow down me door,
One him come crawl through, through my window,
So then they put me in the back the car at the station,
From that point on me reach my destination,
When the destination reached, it was the east detention, where them
Whipped down me pants, looked up me bottom, so

Chorus

Bigger they are they think they have more power,
They’re on the phone me say that on (every) hour,
Me for want to use it once an’ now me call me lover,
Lover who I’ll be callin is the one tammy,
An’ me love her in me heart down to my belly,
Yes me daddy me snow me I feel cool an’ deadly,
As the one mc shan an’ the one daddy snow,
Together we-a love’em as a tor-na-do.

Chorus

Listen for me, you better listen for me now.
Listen for me, you better listen for me now.
When me rockin’ the microphone me rock it steady,
Yes sir, daddy me snow me are the article done.
But in the in an’ the out of a dance them they say where you come from,
People them say you come from jamaica,
But me born an’ raised in the ghetto that’s the one I want you to know,
Pure black people mon that’s all I mon know.
Yeah me shoes are tear up an’ me toes used to show,
Where me born in on the one toronto, so

Chorus

Come with a nice young lady. intelligent,
Yes she’s gentle an’ irie.
Everywhere me go, me never left her at all.
Yes, it’s daddy snow me are the roam dance mon.
Roam between a dancin’ in a in a nation-a.
You never know say daddy me snow me are the boom shakata.
Me never lay-a down flat in that one cardboard box.
Yes say me daddy me snow me I’ll go reachin’ at the top, so...

Chorus

Why would he?

Me sittin’ ’round cool with my dibbie dibbie girl,
Police knock my door,
Lick up my pal,
Rough me up an’ I can’t do a thing
Pick up my line, when my telephone ring.
Take me to the station,
Black up my hands.
Trail me down, ’cuz I’m hangin’ with the snowman,
What I’m gonna do,
I’m backed an’ I’m trapped,
Slap me in the face an’ took all o’ my gap.
They have no clues an’ they wanna get warmer,
But shan won’t turn informer!

Chorus

http://www.smarket.ro/downloads/public/43859740.mp3

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« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2005, 03:00:30 PM »

Dude, I cannot BELIEVE you posted a song from Snow.

Is Vanilla Ice next?  YUB YUB, WORD TO YOUR MOTHER!
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« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2005, 03:06:21 PM »

Snow is funny, Vanilla Ice is just lame.

Now, this is GOOD hip-hop:

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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2005, 05:43:10 PM »

More GOOD hip-hop:

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« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2005, 12:15:35 PM »

Given that Holy Hip-Hop gives praise to Jesus Christ, I'd assume that He'd be rather pleased.
Typical Modernism. Pentecoastals and/or ? Charismatics would say the Lord is pleased when they start crying in church when mushy rock songs with 'Christ-centered lyrics' are played. Oh! Yes Feel that holy spirit. What a bunch of balogna.
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« Reply #113 on: May 24, 2005, 02:59:13 PM »

One could say that your inability to enjoy good music is a bunch of balogna.
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2005, 09:45:09 PM »

More GOOD hip-hop:

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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2005, 11:00:20 PM »

I 'enjoyed' enough rap music in my life to know better. By the way Wagner, Brahms, Mussorgsky, Massinet, are their compositions bad music. I used to go to clubs, drink and dance with girls. I used to smoke weed and do a lot of other things. I used to 'enjoy' nodding my head and listening to Tupac. In fact Tupac was my idol. Even now I still feel he had some positive influence on my life but in the end it had nothing to do with rap music. Rather it had to do with his tragic life and how much the actions of my sordid youth relate to his. But in the end what was the point of it all. Years of wasting my time listening to music that does not take away the pain or inspire you to change. Rather it gave me a fatalistic outlook that I was born a bad apple and nothing was going to change that. It wasn't until the door flung open and the light poored in that I really so how filthy and vile the passionate life is. I threw out all my rap albums, among other things, and resolved to change my life. I thank God that He moved me to seek the other world.

Matthew your inability to get this is really bugging me. Why is it that you cannot see God does not seek people to worship him in a passionate way. Your are just denying the obvious. 'Christian' rap is just as idiotic as 'Christian' rock. A bunch of guys with tattoos and bad hairdos screaming PRAISE HIM! AAAAAMEN! and all that jazz.

What people should do is look to the heavenly things and not entrench themselves further in worldly pursuits that lead to ruin.
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« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2005, 11:47:43 PM »

Don't allow your troubled past to force you to deny the good things of life. God's given us the gift of music for a reason; to be enjoyed, to be expressive, to be human.
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« Reply #117 on: May 25, 2005, 11:52:23 PM »

You can't, you won't, and you don't stop!
http://www.iuma.com/site-bin/mp3gen/51311/IUMA/Bands/Michael_Mitzman/audio/Michael_Mitzman_-_Beastie_Boys_Sure_Shot_remix.mp3

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« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2005, 01:34:50 PM »

Sabbas, you are probably the most pretentious, pompous, and self-righteous person I have ever "met".
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« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2005, 02:17:46 PM »

Sabbas, you are probably the most pretentious, pompous, and self-righteous person I have ever "met".

It's no big deal. Many new converts go through a zealot stage, including me.
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« Reply #120 on: May 26, 2005, 02:23:32 PM »

I'm going through a "rise" on my cyclothymic disorder cycles now....I'm looking back at that post and thoroughly regretting it.....please accept my apologies.....was in an awful mood when I wrote that (not that that's an excuse).
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« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2005, 02:29:14 PM »

Quote
Quote from: idontlikenames on Today at 01:34:50 PM
Sabbas, you are probably the most pretentious, pompous, and self-righteous person I have ever "met".


It's no big deal. Many new converts go through a zealot stage, including me.


I say Sabbas possesses the attributes of one who most probably used to be a KJV bible-thumping fundie evangelical. What do y’all say?

Peace.
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« Reply #122 on: May 26, 2005, 02:32:10 PM »


 

I say Sabbas possesses the attributes of one who most probably used to be a KJV bible-thumping fundie evangelical. What do y’all say?

Peace.

Though I could agree with you, I'd prefer not to pick on Sabbas any longer.
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« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2005, 02:51:31 PM »

Okay, I've had about enough of this thread.

Hip-hop is hyped up, hopped up, pop trash. It is about as much a part of the “good things in life” as a scrumptious bowl of fresh dog feces.

When my wife wants to give me a nice treat, she plays some of Bach's partitas for violin transcribed for the flute. That's live in my living room. Our house is always full of music: MUSIC, made by people and not a mindless, endless drum machine loop.

Take my advice earlier in this thread and get a copy of Morimur or Tabula Rasa by Arvo Part. Go spend your money on a concert where MUSICIANS perform without profanity. I'm not saying anything about their personal lives, but I am saying that they are actually musicians with skills that go beyond the glorious ability to manipulate pre-recorded sounds.

Do I think that Palestrina, Desprez, Bach and even, God forbid, Philip Glass are more "spiritual" than hip-hop? That's a rhetorical question.

This has nothing to do with growing up poor in a particular region.

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile. The lyrics are crass, often unintelligible, and violent. Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement when they could be imitating Thomas Tallis, Monteverdi, Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Dvorak, Gorecki and Part? It's simple. First, since they lack the mental faculty and the musical ability required to create something decent, they record pathetic lyrics over drum machines and looped clips turned up to an ear shattering volume, apparently to share their stench with the rest of creation. Second, people WANT crass. They WANT to return to their vomit again and again. Changing some of the lyrics in hip-hop to make it “Christian” is like adding truffle p+ót+¬ to your bowl of steaming dog turd and calling it “gourmet.”

I've just been staying out of this stupid thread, but I can't stand it any longer.
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« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2005, 02:53:57 PM »

I think some of you guys are getting a bit personal...(cizenec posted while I was writing so I am not referring to him)

I love jazz, urban folk, jazz-influenced rock and celtic/bluegrass music. So I certainly enjoy popular music. But I have a son enmeshed in hiphop, who like Sabbas in reporting feelings from his past, feels that he is a bad apple and almost fatalistically progammed to be as he is. I can only pray that the Light will shine into his life as it did for Sabbas.
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« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2005, 03:00:41 PM »

Also, like one local sports talk show host recently said, black people used to always make all the cool music, now it's an embarassment that the originators of spirituals, ragtime, jazz, rhythm&blues, blues, soul and motown put out this stuff

Some of it is catchy and entertaining. But alot more of it is sing-songish and monotonously repetitive.
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« Reply #126 on: May 26, 2005, 03:09:54 PM »

Sabbas is right, we are called not to entrench oursleves to the world, to stop being of the world.
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« Reply #127 on: May 26, 2005, 03:19:11 PM »

Sounds like people are confusing two branches of philosophy: ethics and aesthetics.  Just because a certain genre of music isn't as technically complex or as aesthetically pleasing as another, doesn't mean it is thereby more "immoral" than the other.  Orthodox Christianity is not some elitist Country Club.  There is no necessary logical connection between synth lines, drum loops and violent, sexist lyrics.  But neither is there any logical connection between synth lines, drum loops and Christian, praise lyrics.  They are nothing but disturbances and waves through the air's molecules....what does that have to do with how one lives their life?

And not all compositional music is moral either.  What about the the belligerent nationalism, nihilism, and anti-semitism of Richard Wagner?  What about Stravinsky, who, in the words of Mr. Holland from "Mr. Holland's Opus" was the composer of the Bolshevik Revolution?

Morality has absolutely nothing to do with the way a certain type of music sounds.
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« Reply #128 on: May 26, 2005, 03:22:09 PM »

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Sabbas is right, we are called not to entrench oursleves to the world, to stop being of the world.

This principle only contradicts the issues Sabbas was addressing, under his fallacious presumptions concerning those very issues.

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music. Christin hip-hop may be as inspirational and moving to a street kid, as a liturgical hymn is inspirational and moving to us; and who is to say it is of any less value in praise before God? Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that we should do anything as outrageous as start replacing our Holy hymns with wordly music simply because it portrays the same central theme; what I am saying is that CONTEXT cannot be disregarded. My reply to Cizinec shall further elucidate my very simple position on this matter:

Ciznic,

Your post over-simplifies the matter, makes unwarranted generalizations, and does not look beyond your personal subjective world. Think about the kids of secular society who grow up with their ears tuned and glued to a particular style or rhythm. If a rap group such as Cross Movement, are capable of maintaining that appeal, whilst redirecting the focus and content, such that it ultimately has a positive influence on some kid who is brought up in an environment where sex, drugs and violence are the norm and trend; then God Bless Cross Movement. God's grace works in mysterious and unlimited ways (who are we to restrict His activities?), and His love is testified to all, such that all are called to receive it; and I see no reason why one cannot acknowledge that where hip hop may be a significant cultural element of certain societies, that God can ultimately use it for His own purposes to testify to those listeners in a manner which appeals to them - to direct an already influential element of society (pop/rap/rock music) in a positive direction.

Let us widen the scope of our reasoning, and seek to understand these matters beyond our own little subjective world - to a world that does not know God let alone the God of Orthodox Christianity. The hip-hip group that I mentioned above; Cross Movemenet, in fact have their own ministry: http://www.crossmovement.org/cmministries.asp. Check it out, especially the testimonies, and try reconsider your position.

Peace.
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« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2005, 03:30:22 PM »

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music.

This is an opinion of yours and I think to say there is NOTHING dangerously passionate is wrong, since maybe there is not to you, but is to others.

I agree that so-called "Christian Rock & Rap" which is usually Protestant can be a crossover for someone from secular to spiritual, but then one can leave that bridge and found themselves in the purely spiritual once they have made that transition. Being not of the world in not instantaneous, but would should all strive for that as a goal.
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« Reply #130 on: May 26, 2005, 03:33:21 PM »

I'm going through a "rise" on my cyclothymic disorder cycles now....I'm looking back at that post and thoroughly regretting it.....please accept my apologies.....was in an awful mood when I wrote that (not that that's an excuse).
I am not bothered. I have a tendency to rub people the wrong way because I often come off like a know-it-all. I don't know anything that I was not taught by someone else but I am self-righteous and tend to overstate my opinions. I ended up offending Anastasios earlier in this discussion and for that I am also sorry. I only wanted to state my opinion while also showing that the Fathers have always been very strict, more strict than I could probably handle, when it came to listening to music. I know they would look down on my listening to Romance composers particularly Wagner and Debussy who utilize pagan themes in their compositions. I try and keep it in moderation and listen more to Church chants. As for being pretentious and pompous I would say it comes from seeing myself as somehow unique because of all my past experiences as well as feeling proud to be of German descent. I know Nationalism is a heresy but it is something I was imbued with as a kid and has never really left me. I suppose listening to Wagner does not help this.
Anyway you were right on the first time. I am indeed all the things you said and more.

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile. The lyrics are crass, often unintelligible, and violent. Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement when they could be imitating Thomas Tallis, Monteverdi, Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Dvorak, Gorecki and Part? It's simple. First, since they lack the mental faculty and the musical ability required to create something decent, they record pathetic lyrics over drum machines and looped clips turned up to an ear shattering volume, apparently to share their stench with the rest of creation. Second, people WANT crass. They WANT to return to their vomit again and again. Changing some of the lyrics in hip-hop to make it “Christian” is like adding truffle p+ót+¬ to your bowl of steaming dog turd and calling it “gourmet.”

This is also what I was trying to say in addition to making arguments from the Fathers about the passionate nature of rap music.
I say Sabbas possesses the attributes of one who most probably used to be a KJV bible-thumping fundie evangelical. What do y’all say?

Peace.
As far as I know no one in my family out to my third cousins and back to my great-great grandparents have ever been fundie evangelicals. I had a great grandma who was a strict Episcopal-Methodist and went to church every Sunday but that is quite different from an evangelical. Many of my relatives were staunch but lax Roman Catholics, if that makes sense. They were thoroughly RC but were not very strict with themselves. All of them drank and smoked but were not excessive. Many of them had nothing but derision for fundamentalists. If anything my family is known for being good in athletics not thumping bibles.
I think some of you guys are getting a bit personal...(cizenec posted while I was writing so I am not referring to him)

I love jazz, urban folk, jazz-influenced rock and celtic/bluegrass music. So I certainly enjoy popular music. But I have a son enmeshed in hiphop, who like Sabbas in reporting feelings from his past, feels that he is a bad apple and almost fatalistically progammed to be as he is. I can only pray that the Light will shine into his life as it did for Sabbas.
I pray it will. I hope you are doing everything you can to help him. I also hope he has not got into the dark side of life. Don't let handguns and drugs become a part of his life because that results in a lot of things rap music on its own can never do.
But don't be too worried and also tell your son, I assume he is still in high school? that you really can clean yourself up. I graduated in the bottom fifth of my high school class but am now on the dean's list at college. Anything is possible if you try.
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« Reply #131 on: May 26, 2005, 03:34:38 PM »

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile.

The Roots, Outkast, and the Beastie Boys are some of the most creative and innovative musical groups of the past twenty years.
The Roots are a jazz band that rap to recordings of their jams, not just a bunch of guys who happen to own a drum machine.

The lyrics are crass, often unintelligible, and violent.

As I stated earlier in the thread, the good hip-hop groups move beyond that stereotype.


Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement...

The whole point of being a Christian hip-hop group is to NOT imitate the retarded "gangsta" rap that you seem to think is the only hip-hop music. Some Christian hip-hop groups are actually more innovative than most of mainstream music.
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« Reply #132 on: May 26, 2005, 03:37:03 PM »

-ö-+-¦-¦-+-+ -¥-+-¦-+-+-¦-¦

Quote
Quote from: EkhristosAnesti on Today at 03:22:09 PM
There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music.

This is an opinion of yours and I think to say there is NOTHING dangerously passionate is wrong, since maybe there is not to you, but is to others.

I only meant that statement in the context of my entire discussion which essentially qualified it. Excluding it like that it is misleading in its implications. If that statement were to convey my appropriate intention it would be qualified by the clause “per se”.

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music per se.

Quote
Being not of the world in not instantaneous, but would should all strive for that as a goal.

My point is, that paradoxically, through what has been understood here as “worldy music” can indeed be the transportation of some drug dealer or street thug “out of this world”.

Peace.
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« Reply #133 on: May 26, 2005, 03:37:59 PM »

Quote
Just because a certain genre of music isn't as technically complex or as aesthetically pleasing as another, doesn't mean it is thereby more "immoral" than the other.

No, but it's still crap.

Quote
And not all compositional music is moral either. What about the the belligerent nationalism, nihilism, and anti-semitism of Richard Wagner? What about Stravinsky, who, in the words of Mr. Holland from "Mr. Holland's Opus" was the composer of the Bolshevik Revolution?

Holy cow, man, do you put Wagner and "Mr. Holland's Opus" on the same level? I disilke Wagner, but putting some "B" pop movie as the poster child for "compositional music" is a huge stretch. I guess "Mr. Holland" said Stravinsky was a Bolshevik, so it must be true. I don't like Wagner, but he was much more gifted the Tupac, regardless of the message. It actually takes some work to completely understand Wagner's message, no matter how vile. Wagner did more than compose music, in case you didn't know.

Quote
and does not look beyond your personal subjective world

Thank you, Mr. Baudrillard. That statement hasn't been preconditioned, has it?

Quote
Think about the kids of secular society who grow up with their ears tuned and glued to a particular style or rhythm.

That's my problem. The kids of our society don't know anything but this trash and are socially conditioned to look down on anything else. "Prettyfying" it isn't going to correct the fact that most kids are so narrow and lacking in depth of any kind that a half-witted English professor can turn a number of them into rabid atheists and Marxists in half a semester. Changing the lyrics isn't going to solve that problem.
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« Reply #134 on: May 26, 2005, 03:39:30 PM »

No, but it's still crap.

All hip-hop music is crap? I'm sure you've probably never even heard a good hip-hop record. Instead of having an actual experience of good hip-hop, all you have is willful ignorance and a charicature of the real music.
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« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2005, 03:44:42 PM »

Quote
Changing the lyrics isn't going to solve that problem.

If these kids are already conditioned by society to listen to this music - a society which reflects the very negative attributes this sort of music usually motivates in these young listeners (drugs and sex etc) - then I see only two options: They continue to listen to big bass and electric guitars, with a vocalist telling them how high the weed takes them, and how good the sex is - or with a vocalist telling them to live for Christ and to renounce a sinful world.

Which has more potential to "solve the problem" smart guy?

Peace.
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« Reply #136 on: May 26, 2005, 03:50:17 PM »

Cizinec: closed-mindedness in EITHER direction is equally bad. Yes, I agree, it sickens me that everybody under the age of 20 cannot broaden his/her scope and they only listen to what the Entertainment Corporate Elite decides for them what they should listen to (Destiny's Child, American Idol, Dashboard Confessional, etc.).....all along deceptively believing that they CHOSE this form of music because of their own tastes....pffffff. But the opposite sickens me as well: people who think that unless you dress yourself with Fred Perry or Armani clothing, play golf, have a white-collar job, drive a gas-guzzling, Arab-murdering SUV, listen to Classical/Baroque/Romantic/20th Century Compositional Music, vote Republican (or Democrat, sincin' their both the same thing), and eat at restaurants where you can't get a shrimp cocktail for under $15, then you are obviously some boorish, Neanderthal, backwards inbred who is not fit to live.
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« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2005, 03:52:46 PM »

Anyone who is unable to recognize that some hip-hop is an art form, rather than being a silly ode to busting caps and pimping, is either closedminded, ignorant, or both.
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« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2005, 03:52:51 PM »

Well, of the groups you listed as great, I've heard two glorious Beastie Boys albums. They are trash. They (or their producers, at any rate) use pre-recording music and "say" (I don't even think what they do can be classified as rap, it's so bloody bad) disgusting or stupid lyrics over the top.

 I was actually around when Afrika Bambaataa's albums were coming out and break dancing was all the rage.

I've heard Salt-N-Peppa way back when.

And, for crying out loud, I hear it 7 days a week screaming out of teenagers cars!!! It's all over the radio, now we have a Spanish language hip-hop station, which I have briefly endured, and it's played on television shows and in movies. How in the bleeding world could I *NOT* hear it?Huh?
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« Reply #139 on: May 26, 2005, 03:54:20 PM »

Ekhristos Anesti,

That is an obvious false dichotomy.  There are more than TWO musical options in the world.
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« Reply #140 on: May 26, 2005, 03:55:09 PM »

If you haven't heard a Roots album, then you have no right to have an opinion on the music.
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« Reply #141 on: May 26, 2005, 03:57:26 PM »

idln, you also provide us with a false dichotomy. List two "types" of people and ask us to choose which one or to go between the two. The world is a lot more complex than what you folks are presenting.
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« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2005, 03:59:33 PM »

Matthew, I have a right to an opinion of the music I hear incessantly from society that I am told is called hiphop.  You can argue that I can't judge the Roots album.  You can't argue that I can't say I can't stand the genre, as I can't STOP hearing it.
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« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2005, 04:00:46 PM »

Matthew, I have a right to an opinion of the music I hear incessantly from society that I am told is called hiphop. You can argue that I can't judge the Roots album. You can't argue that I can't say I can't stand the genre, as I can't STOP hearing it.

There is a difference between commercialized fake hip-hop and the real stuff. It is like apples and oranges. Chances are, you've only heard what they play on TRL.
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« Reply #144 on: May 26, 2005, 04:01:21 PM »

Ciznec,

Don't be stupid; we are dealing with situations that require practical solutions, not logically possible solutions - so there is no dichotomy.

The discussion was under the acceptable presumption that there are kids out there ALREADY CONDITIONED to a particular sort of music. Redirecting the focus of this music is obviously the most PRACTICAL solution; or do you suggest we go around and hand out liturgical CD's?

Peace.
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« Reply #145 on: May 26, 2005, 04:07:31 PM »

EA, we have radically different opinions of the abilities of young minds to adapt.

Matthew, ever heard of the Digable Planets? I used to love those guys. I saw them in concert. I wasn't that fond of the rap, but, man, they could jam.

You are the one who mentioned the "Beastie Boys," not me. I'm pretty sure that they're commercial. About once a month I get exposed to "underground" hiphop from Pacifica radio (our local socialist station). I don't like that crap any more than I like Beastie Boys.  I don't spend much time memorizing the names of the "artists" since I can't stand the stuff.  I don't think, "Hey, that was really aweful!  I need to write down the name of the band and run out to buy the album!"

Some of the kids at work are always trying to convert me to your side of this.  They give me CDs to "convert" me.  It doesn't work because I think it STINKS.
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« Reply #146 on: May 26, 2005, 04:12:10 PM »

You are the one who mentioned the "Beastie Boys," not me. I'm pretty sure that they're commercial.

The Beastie Boys do not follow trends. They have the right for their songs to get mainstream play.
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« Reply #147 on: May 26, 2005, 04:14:20 PM »

They give me CDs to "convert" me. It doesn't work because I think it STINKS.

What one thinks does not influence what is.
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« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2005, 04:25:03 PM »

cizinec: Being a lover of all kinds of music, I am lacking in my compositional section in my CD collection.  But, unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin.  Could you guide me to collections, symphonies, albums, etc. that are good?  (p.s. I am not a big fan of the Romantic Era).....where do I start?
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« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2005, 04:29:57 PM »

Not being a fan of the romantic era is a good start, not that I'm opinionated or anything.
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« Reply #150 on: May 26, 2005, 04:38:36 PM »

What I hate about alot of rap is how they steal and sample from other accomplished artist songs and then make some cheesy rap out of it Roll Eyes(a la Sean Puffy Combs). What I hate also are all the dum little white boys with their pants sagging down with the backwards hat as if they just stepped out of South Central LA. I always make sure to make some kind of comment to these morons when I'm out. What also pisses me off are the idiots with heavy bass blasting when your out driving and it literally shakes your car and disrupts the peace. There is much better music out there than rap.
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« Reply #151 on: May 26, 2005, 04:41:12 PM »

guys like that still exist?....where I live, all the white guys where tight jeans, dye their hair black, and wear "The Smiths" or "The Sisters of Mercy" t-shirts.
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« Reply #152 on: May 26, 2005, 04:49:31 PM »

Sorry, I should be more helpful.

These are all just my opinion.  I won’t point to particular recordings, although I prefer HIP (historically informed performances).

1.   Medieval:
a.   Johannes Ciconia - Pick something
b.   The Island of St. Hylarion:  Music of Cyprus (this is Ars Subtilior)
c.   Pilgrimage to Santiago
d.   Gregorian Chants (of course) - pick a source
2.   Reaissance:
a.   Josquin Desprez - his “Ave Maria” ends with a fantastic “O Matre Dei, memento mei.”
b.   Monteverdi - La favola d’Orfeo
c.   Palestrina - Missa Papa Marcelli
d.   Thomas Tallis - Take your pick
3.   Baroque
a.   What can I say?  Bach, Vivaldi, Telemann, Purcell, Machaut, Zelenka, etc.  Surf the web and find a good HIP recording of Bach.  You just can’t go wrong.
4.   Classical
a.   C.P.E. Bach’s Sonatas for Keyboard
b.   Beethoven - there’s too much to list
c.   Mozart - I’m not that fond of Mozart, but still . . .
d.   Bocchernin -    Quintets for guitar and string


Now that I’m writing all this, the best thing to do is enroll in a music appreciation class.  The class includes several CDs of basic music that takes you through the important periods.  Once you’re done with that, take the first music theory class.  It’s well worth the effort.
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« Reply #153 on: May 26, 2005, 06:09:17 PM »

What I hate about alot of rap is how they steal and sample from other accomplished artist songs and then make some cheesy rap out of it 

The Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutique not only makes ample use of samples but creates better compositions than the originals. It truly is a great album.

 
There is much better music out there than rap.

That all depends on what kind of rap you are thinking of.
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« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2005, 12:54:22 AM »

I also forgot about "Adventures in Good Music," a one hour, weekly radio program on a lot of NPR stations.  http://www.wuol.org/haas_bio.htm

Unfortunately, Karl Haas died in February.  Since he did the show for over forty years, they have a lot of great old programs they are sending out over sinidication.  Those shows are a great way to get introduced to music.  If your NPR station doesn't carry the program, you can still listen to it on several NPR stations that have webcasts.  You can find out the times here.
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« Reply #155 on: May 27, 2005, 12:58:25 AM »

ok....thanx for the input.....I think everyone advances to better tastes as they get older....i just graduated to jazz about a year ago....compositional is my next step.
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« Reply #156 on: May 27, 2005, 01:06:21 AM »

Quote
But the opposite sickens me as well: people who think that unless you dress yourself with Fred Perry or Armani clothing, play golf, have a white-collar job, drive a gas-guzzling, Arab-murdering SUV, listen to Classical/Baroque/Romantic/20th Century Compositional Music, vote Republican (or Democrat, sincin' their both the same thing), and eat at restaurants where you can't get a shrimp cocktail for under $15, then you are obviously some boorish, Neanderthal, backwards inbred who is not fit to live.

I honestly think you're missing something here.

Most of the folks with whom I have to deal professionally make a great deal more money than me. They are very judgemental about cars, suits and restaurants. Most of them know absolutely nothing about any type of music other than pop, hiphop or classic rock.

Do I think that a group of people who shut themselves off from the higher forms of music because they don't want to learn it are boorish, backwards Neanderthals? If I were to give a generic answer I'd have to say yes.

Quality music doesn't cost a dime more than crap. There are plenty of educational programs offered FOR FREE from radio stations, television, local libraries and the internet. In fact, you'll find quality music to be MORE accessible than popular pig swill.

I think the rich elitists you are describing are more likely to be hiphop junkies or classic rock headbangers than people who get their feathers ruffled when discussing the Morimur album. Most of the folks who discuss that stuff are poor or middle class musicians, students, professors and average, interested people.
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« Reply #157 on: May 27, 2005, 01:09:32 AM »

I broke up with a girl from the Czech Republic when I was 23 because she didn't like jazz.  Man, that's America's "Classical" music.  I always defer to my father-in-law on that subject.  I do have a couple of Bird (Charlie Parker) albums on LP that we listen to time and again.
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« Reply #158 on: May 27, 2005, 01:53:48 PM »

Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Charles Mingus, Horace Silver, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Bennie Goodman, Wes Montgomery, Sonny Rollins - very sublime American Classical Music
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« Reply #159 on: May 27, 2005, 01:54:18 PM »

Cizinec, why not try jazz-rap?

"Jazz-Rap was an attempt to fuse African-American music of the past with a newly dominant form of the present, paying tribute to and reinvigorating the former while expanding the horizons of the latter. While the rhythms of jazz-rap came entirely from hip-hop, the samples and sonic textures were drawn mainly from cool jazz, soul-jazz, and hard bop. It was cooler and more cerebral than other styles of hip-hop, and many of its artists displayed an Afrocentric political consciousness, complementing the style's historical awareness. Given its more intellectual bent, it's not surprising that jazz-rap never really caught on as a street favorite, but then it wasn't meant to. Jazz-rap styled itself as a more positive alternative to the hardcore/gangsta movement taking over rap's mainstream at the dawn of the '90s, and concerned itself with spreading hip-hop to listeners unable to embrace or identify with the music's increasing inner-city aggression. As such, jazz-rap found its main audiences in places like college campuses, and was also embraced by a number of critics and white alternative rock fans. Afrika Bambaataa's Native Tongues posse — a loose collective of New York-based, Afrocentric rap groups — was the most important force in jazz-rap, including groups like A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers; Digable Planets and Gang Starr were other notable early artists. During the mid- to late '90s, as alternative rap moved into a wider-ranging eclecticism, jazz-rap was not often pursued as an exclusive end, although the Roots frequently incorporated it in their live-instrumentation hip-hop."
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2920
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« Reply #160 on: May 27, 2005, 02:10:18 PM »

lol....I'm listening to Jaco Pastorius' self-titled album even as we speak. :headbang: :hippy:
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« Reply #161 on: May 27, 2005, 05:55:24 PM »

Louis Jordan,Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Little Richard, James Brown, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Sam and Dave, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Aretha, Al Green, Sly Stone, George Clinton and......oh yeah , Michael Jackson Tongue
                                        Classics.
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« Reply #162 on: May 27, 2005, 07:57:39 PM »

and don't forget the OTHER side of roots music: Bob Marley, Burning Spear, Mad Professor, King Tubby, Scientist, Peter Tosh, Buju Banton, Lady Saw, etc.

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« Reply #163 on: May 28, 2005, 02:00:29 AM »

I listened to Peter Tosh...until I quit doing drugs. Now, I cannot even find my copy of Legalize It. Thank God.
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« Reply #164 on: May 28, 2005, 03:29:22 AM »

As for the Minor Threat reference, the Dead Kennedys were formed in 1978 and screamed the vocals instead of singing.
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« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2005, 11:15:46 AM »

"lol....I'm listening to Jaco Pastorius' self-titled album even as we speak. "
Jaco era Weather Report records is great stuff!
Also check him out with Joni Mitchell on the Mingus and Shadows and Light live records
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« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2005, 11:19:51 AM »

"Louis Jordan,Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Little Richard, James Brown, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Sam and Dave, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Aretha, Al Green, Sly Stone, George Clinton and......oh yeah , Michael Jackson
 Classics."

Agree completely!
Don't forget Donny Hathaway!
then there were all those "Philadelphia sound" (as opposed to Motwn) soul groups too
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« Reply #167 on: June 01, 2005, 12:04:10 PM »

Kanye West - Jesus Walks Lyrics
Yo, We at war
We at war with terrorism, racism but most of all we at war with ourselves
(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the Devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks with me) with me with me with me [fades]

You know what the Midwest is?
Young & Restless
Where restless Niggaz might snatch your necklace
And next these Niggaz might jack your Lexus
Somebody tell these Niggaz who Kanye West is
I walk through the valley of Chi where death is
Top floor the view alone will leave you breathless Uhhhh!
Try to catch it Uhhhh! It's kinda hard hard
Getting choked by the detectives yeah yeah now check the method
They be asking us questions, harass and arrest us
Saying "we eat pieces of xxxx like you for breakfast"
Huh? Yall eat pieces of xxxx? What's the basis?
We ain't going nowhere but got suits and cases
A trunk full of coke rental car from Avis
My momma used to say only Jesus can save us
Well momma I know I act a fool
But I'll be gone til November I got packs to move I Hope

[HOOK x2]
(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the Devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks with me)
The only thing that I pray is that me feet don't fail me now
(Jesus Walks)
And I don't think there is nothing I can do now to right my
wrongs
(Jesus Walks with me)
I want to talk to God but I'm afraid because we ain't spoke in
so long

To the hustlas, killers, murderers, drug dealers even the
strippers
To the victims of Welfare for we living in hell here hell yeah
Now hear ye hear ye want to see Thee more clearly
I know he hear me when my feet get weary
Cuz we're the almost nearly extinct
We rappers as role models we rap we don't think
I ain't here to argue about his facial features
Or here to convert atheists into believers
I'm just trying to say the way school need teachers
The way Kathie Lee needed Regis that's the way yall need Jesus
So here go my single dog radio needs this
They say you can rap about anything except for Jesus
That means guns, sex, lies, video tapes
But if I talk about God my record won't get played Huh?
Well let this take away from my spins
Which will probably take away from my ends
Then I hope this take away from my sins
And bring the day that I'm dreaming about
Next time I'm in the club everybody screaming out

(Jesus Walks)
God show me the way because the devil trying to break me down
(Jesus Walks)
The only thing that I pray is that me feet don't fail me now

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« Reply #168 on: June 01, 2005, 12:42:03 PM »

Quote
Cizinec, why not try jazz-rap?

When "Acid Jazz" first appeared a gave it a shot.  As I mentioned earlier, I liked (to an extent) the Digable Planets and saw them in concert.  Acid Jazz became more acid and less jazz, so I let it go. 
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« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2005, 12:34:45 PM »

For those who know the underground scene...Hip Hop starts with the beats. Check out Busdriver, Common Scence, Aesop Rock (but he cusses alot like everyone in N.Y.), Vast Air, Cannibal Ox, Mark Farina...Mushroom Jazz(good down tempo beats.), People Under the Stairs, Invisible Scratch Pickles...RJD2, Q-Bert, Freestyle Fellowship, Blackalicious, definately check out anything by Dj Drez or Medusa. Remember to listen to God's word and your conscience more than any of this music and get a cd of some french western orthodox liturgy( real good stuff like you've never heard before). Keep up the good tunes and beats. when things seem to fall apart, ask His mercy into your heart.Get up off your feet. hit your knees. thats how we start. Orthodox in the Heezy!! yey yey!
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« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2005, 12:37:12 PM »

Oh yeah..one cd hard to find but totaslly worth it is from a group that doesn't exist anymore. the Arsonists...Blaze.
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« Reply #171 on: October 31, 2005, 05:33:46 PM »

Some of my favorites back in the day were Del the funky homosapien,all of Hieroglyphics-Casual- most, Aceyalone, Freestyle Fellowship, Gang Starr, The Roots, MC Solaar(French).  Now I'm pretty much out of the rap scene completely but still enjoy hearing some "oldies but goodies", but don't seek them out or play them deliberately, it makes me want to dance, and I'm too out of shape to want to dance Tongue
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« Reply #172 on: March 16, 2011, 06:32:43 PM »

I recommend Mongolian rappers. They're all ex-Khans.
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« Reply #173 on: March 16, 2011, 06:51:00 PM »

^LOL. Did you look this thread up to say that, or do you just happen to have a slew of bad jokes that you can whip out whenever needed?
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« Reply #174 on: March 16, 2011, 07:51:20 PM »

^LOL. Did you look this thread up to say that, or do you just happen to have a slew of bad jokes that you can whip out whenever needed?
The answers that you Sikh can be found within.
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« Reply #175 on: March 16, 2011, 08:07:09 PM »

 Cheesy
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« Reply #176 on: March 16, 2011, 09:45:10 PM »

Interrupting the funny (that sikh joke was pretty cool!  Cheesy)

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...but these are my favorite groups:

1) Hadag Nachash (Israeli group....they rap a lot about politics! They're on the moderate/left side of the IP conflict.)
2) Subliminal (Zionist Israeli rapper)
3) SHI 360 (Israeli too....I'm pretty sure he's Zionist but I'm not positive)
4) DAM (Palestinian group)

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« Reply #177 on: March 16, 2011, 10:00:03 PM »

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...

I've always believed hip-hop was just what relatively affluent white kids and artists/record labels marketing towards relatively affluent white kids called it.

I enjoy being on the wrong end of some pretty nasty eye rolling from pretentious hipsters when I use the term rap.   Roll Eyes Right back at 'em.
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« Reply #178 on: March 16, 2011, 10:02:07 PM »

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...

I've always believed hip-hop was just what relatively affluent white kids and artists/record labels marketing towards relatively affluent white kids called it.

I enjoy being on the wrong end of some pretty nasty eye rolling from pretentious hipsters when I use the term rap.   Roll Eyes Right back at 'em.

The terms are used interchangeably and "hip hop" is certainly not a rich hipster term.
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« Reply #179 on: March 16, 2011, 10:02:19 PM »

Interrupting the funny (that sikh joke was pretty cool!  Cheesy)

I've always been a little unclear about the difference between hip hop and rap...but these are my favorite groups:

1) Hadag Nachash (Israeli group....they rap a lot about politics! They're on the moderate/left side of the IP conflict.)
2) Subliminal (Zionist Israeli rapper)
3) SHI 360 (Israeli too....I'm pretty sure he's Zionist but I'm not positive)
4) DAM (Palestinian group)



Don't let non-heads say otherwise: hip-hop is an umbrella term for an emergent urban (not PC here, was ethnically diverse) phenomenon beginning around the very early 80's perhaps very late 70's, of which "rap" is an element albeit the most widespread and well-known.

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« Reply #180 on: March 16, 2011, 10:04:58 PM »

My favorite contemporary rapper would have to be Immortal Technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T22-lHISxOY

(warning: contains profanity)
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« Reply #181 on: March 16, 2011, 10:07:33 PM »

Iconodule, Wikipedia begs to differ.  Tongue

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« Reply #182 on: March 16, 2011, 10:58:59 PM »

I like Aesop Rock, Mr Lif, El-P, Atmosphere, and anything produced by DJ Dangermouse.

If we go back to the '90s Wu Tang's Enter the 36 Chambers was probably one of the best albums of the 20th Century, but for the true pioneers in the field we can look no further than OutKast.  Consistent in quality from the get-go, ATLiens and Aquemini changed the game and put Southern rap on the map, then Stankonia raised the bar even higher.  Speakerboxxx/The Love Below is a musical feat without par in the annals of rap music, and Hey Ya was the ONLY good song on rock radio during the abysmal decade that was the 'Noughts.
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« Reply #183 on: March 16, 2011, 11:36:53 PM »

"(warning: contains profanity)"

With all due respect: Are you kidding?
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« Reply #184 on: March 16, 2011, 11:47:34 PM »

That video (I must admit I'm impressed with how he worded his lyrics) reminds me of my one weakness: Rage Against the Machine (the Battle of Los Angeles is one of my favorite CDs).

I don't know if I would count them as hip-hop...they're a weird mix of several genres.

I always try to make sure that I'm not listening to any anti-Christian music, but Rage is that one group that gets through the filter. I don't know why...I like the music too much, especially on a road trip with the top down on the car.

Agh!

ETA: The worst is that I absolutely do NOT agree with their politics. I'm a center-right, libertarian, whatever you want to call it. I basically disagree with almost every word they sing and yet I still listen to them. I don't get it.  Huh
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« Reply #185 on: March 17, 2011, 09:21:48 AM »

When Immortal Technique came out a handful of years back, his main strength was his freestyle. Probably my favorite track by him is Obnoxious.

Like or not Em, probably the best of the last 15. Had the chance to see that weird white boy coming up. Was at the now infamous Scribblejam where he got taken down. This was just before he blew up.

Most of the heads heard mixtapes with him on it, but to him in person was ridiculous. Juice though pulled off something off the flow that was unimaginable to pwn him or any person on the earth on that day.

The only place Em lacks, is voice.

From my life, touchstones. Obvious ones, cause no matter how we try to protest, the best float to the top:

Grandmaster Flash
Run DMC
Boogie Down Productions
Public Enemy
Geto Boys
Early Ice Cube (Death Certificate remains in terms of production and shear career turn around one of the greatest albums out there)
Dre (for his "production" or at least production supervision)
Kool Keith (toooo much to say about this guy, even back in Eletromagnetic MCs the guy was light years ahead of the game in terms of rhyme structure especially abandoning end rhyme for middle rhyme and assonance. His later work is just mind blowing)
Biggie (his freestyle like Em was also just sick, game changer in terms of syncopation, completely off-beat rhyme at times)
Jay-Z (not a big fan of his stuff, but in terms of freestyle and his early flow, no one could touch the ease with which he could float over any beat. Stupid charisma live.)
Em. (Arguably the best body of work. Greatest breath control ever. From subject matter, play on words, complex rhyme structure freestyle or written, charisma, on and on and on. He's latest stuff is just silly, but a testament to the fact the guy know how to make millions even when mediocre.)

Tons dropped off. All the stuff mentioned above is good. But seriously, when it comes to stuff that heads can listen to and also crossover, these are the best.

All but Kool Keith got what they deserved.

 
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« Reply #186 on: January 08, 2013, 04:50:25 PM »

Universities across the nation have offered courses on hip-hop culture for several years, but the University of Arizona has decided to take its program further, adding the subject as as a concentration in its Africana Studies minor program.
....
Arizona students hoping for an easy minor of just sitting back and listening to Jay-Z probably shouldn’t enroll, Durand said.

The curriculum goes beyond the stereotypical gang and drug cultures to examine the movement’s intersection with politics, marketing, fashion and other academic disciplines.
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« Reply #187 on: January 08, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »

You guys are delusional if you think Nas and Eminem are the greatest lyricists.

Best rapper of all time--hands down--is Big Pun. He was the total package. Probably the most technically complex rapper of all time with excessive multisyllables, tongue twisters, internal rhyme patterns and a rapid-fire flow that could go over any beat and sound good. He even murked Nas on the song John Blaze. For a man as overweight as Pun was--weighing something like 698lbs at his time of death--he had remarkable breath control and charisma--I can't imagine how good it would be if he weren't as overweight.

He was also socially conscious in many of his songs--contrary to what most people think. Listen to Capital Punishment Medley, Wishful Thinking, his second verse on Boomerang and Parental Discretion (ft. Busta Rhymes).

"It's time
to call a world order where every
girl's your daughter, and priceless
as ices and pearls fresh out the water
I'm gonna get mine, either from crime or
through the Bible, whichever way, it better pay,
I'm feeling suicidal."

-Boomerang
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« Reply #188 on: January 08, 2013, 06:00:38 PM »

Quote from: orthonorm
...

Grandmaster Flash
Run DMC
Boogie Down Productions
Public Enemy
Geto Boys
Early Ice Cube (Death Certificate remains in terms of production and shear career turn around one of the greatest albums out there)
Dre (for his "production" or at least production supervision)
Kool Keith (toooo much to say about this guy, even back in Eletromagnetic MCs the guy was light years ahead of the game in terms of rhyme structure especially abandoning end rhyme for middle rhyme and assonance. His later work is just mind blowing)
Biggie (his freestyle like Em was also just sick, game changer in terms of syncopation, completely off-beat rhyme at times)
Jay-Z (not a big fan of his stuff, but in terms of freestyle and his early flow, no one could touch the ease with which he could float over any beat. Stupid charisma live.)
Em. (Arguably the best body of work. Greatest breath control ever. From subject matter, play on words, complex rhyme structure freestyle or written, charisma, on and on and on. He's latest stuff is just silly, but a testament to the fact the guy know how to make millions even when mediocre.)

Tons dropped off. All the stuff mentioned above is good. But seriously, when it comes to stuff that heads can listen to and also crossover, these are the best.

All but Kool Keith got what they deserved.

 

KRS-One.

That is all.
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« Reply #189 on: January 08, 2013, 08:45:47 PM »

You guys are delusional if you think Nas and Eminem are the greatest lyricists.

Best rapper of all time--hands down--is Big Pun. He was the total package. Probably the most technically complex rapper of all time with excessive multisyllables, tongue twisters, internal rhyme patterns and a rapid-fire flow that could go over any beat and sound good. He even murked Nas on the song John Blaze. For a man as overweight as Pun was--weighing something like 698lbs at his time of death--he had remarkable breath control and charisma--I can't imagine how good it would be if he weren't as overweight.

He was also socially conscious in many of his songs--contrary to what most people think. Listen to Capital Punishment Medley, Wishful Thinking, his second verse on Boomerang and Parental Discretion (ft. Busta Rhymes).

"It's time
to call a world order where every
girl's your daughter, and priceless
as ices and pearls fresh out the water
I'm gonna get mine, either from crime or
through the Bible, whichever way, it better pay,
I'm feeling suicidal."

-Boomerang

Sorry kiddo. Come back around when you have listened to tens of thousands of hours and seen hundreds of hours of live shows.

You are going to have to invent a time machine. I was born into this and lived through it.

Let me know when you find who is better than Em who has enormous crossover. There ain't.

And that was my main point other than listing some touchstones for folks who just want a primer of what is relatively accessible, influential, and has held up and hadn't gotten the proper attention IIRC in the thread.

I mean people bringing up Rage Against the Machine? Or irrelevant "world" rap?

Next time we talk, I'll do RAtM's entire body of work in about 32 seconds. Can do it in about 12, but I do get carried away.
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« Reply #190 on: January 08, 2013, 08:47:36 PM »

Uh, Master P is one of the most brilliant hip hop artists and entrepreneurs around. Don't you know that he is the reason that people can actually make money in hip hop because he revolutionized the idea of artists recording on their own labels? His song "bout it bout it" from 1996 was a real classic.

Anastasios

James,

Read this.

Don't laugh. I dare you.

But I've probably listened to 'Bout it, 'Bout it 72^8 times though . . .
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« Reply #191 on: January 08, 2013, 11:31:19 PM »

Let me know when you find who is better than Em who has enormous crossover. There ain't.

What exactly is "crossover"? The ability to appeal to a wider audience? If that's the case, then you got a point because Em can appeal to almost everyone. The only other rapper with an arguably larger crossover than Em was Tupac--however, he lacked the technical skill. Pun is one of the only rappers I could think of with superior technical skill to Em--yet, for the most part, he never fully attained mainstream fame and appeal--admittedly, partially due to his premature death.
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« Reply #192 on: January 08, 2013, 11:38:48 PM »

Uh, Master P is one of the most brilliant hip hop artists and entrepreneurs around. Don't you know that he is the reason that people can actually make money in hip hop because he revolutionized the idea of artists recording on their own labels? His song "bout it bout it" from 1996 was a real classic.

Uh, in a sense the commercialization of hip-hop is probably what killed it. Due to the commercialization, the element of skill and originality has died out in favor of just trying to appeal to the "casual listeners" in hopes of getting more money--and oftentimes, the "casual listeners" do not care about talent or skill at all, but just want something fun that they could bump at the club.

Hence the West Coast (as much as I hate to admit it)'s coming into hip-hop....Death Row Records was probably the worst thing to ever happen to hip-hop. Let's face it, most West Coast artists--no matter how famous they may be such as Snoop and Dre--are pure garbage from a technical level. The only reason they are famous is because they can appeal to pop listeners.

This is why the East Coast will always reign supreme to me. They may not have very much commercial appeal other than Biggie Smalls, but they are still probably some of the most skilled rappers out there. Another good place for true talented hip-hop is the Midwest.
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« Reply #193 on: January 09, 2013, 03:42:33 PM »

Back to this threa when I'm of post moderation.

I just picked up the Chess boxset of GZA's Liquid Swords.
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« Reply #194 on: January 09, 2013, 03:42:56 PM »

Been listening to this too:
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« Reply #195 on: January 09, 2013, 03:42:56 PM »

And this:
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« Reply #196 on: January 17, 2013, 09:49:25 PM »

Back to this threa when I'm of post moderation.

I just picked up the Chess boxset of GZA's Liquid Swords.

You shall never be off post moderation! Mwahahahaha!
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« Reply #197 on: January 19, 2013, 07:40:46 PM »

So according to my aunt and uncle in a drunken fit of rage, Stevie Wonder had the very first rap song there ever was with his "Master Blaster" and that all of these new rappers are FOS singing their "monkey" (they're somewhat racist) music.
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« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2013, 07:57:47 PM »

Back to this threa when I'm of post moderation.

I just picked up the Chess boxset of GZA's Liquid Swords.

You shall never be off post moderation! Mwahahahaha!

I'm a prophet.
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« Reply #199 on: January 03, 2014, 07:50:34 AM »

When Immortal Technique came out a handful of years back, his main strength was his freestyle. Probably my favorite track by him is Obnoxious.

Like or not Em, probably the best of the last 15. Had the chance to see that weird white boy coming up. Was at the now infamous Scribblejam where he got taken down. This was just before he blew up.

Most of the heads heard mixtapes with him on it, but to him in person was ridiculous. Juice though pulled off something off the flow that was unimaginable to pwn him or any person on the earth on that day.

The only place Em lacks, is voice.

From my life, touchstones. Obvious ones, cause no matter how we try to protest, the best float to the top:

Grandmaster Flash
Run DMC
Boogie Down Productions
Public Enemy
Geto Boys
Early Ice Cube (Death Certificate remains in terms of production and shear career turn around one of the greatest albums out there)
Dre (for his "production" or at least production supervision)
Kool Keith (toooo much to say about this guy, even back in Eletromagnetic MCs the guy was light years ahead of the game in terms of rhyme structure especially abandoning end rhyme for middle rhyme and assonance. His later work is just mind blowing)
Biggie (his freestyle like Em was also just sick, game changer in terms of syncopation, completely off-beat rhyme at times)
Jay-Z (not a big fan of his stuff, but in terms of freestyle and his early flow, no one could touch the ease with which he could float over any beat. Stupid charisma live.)
Em. (Arguably the best body of work. Greatest breath control ever. From subject matter, play on words, complex rhyme structure freestyle or written, charisma, on and on and on. He's latest stuff is just silly, but a testament to the fact the guy know how to make millions even when mediocre.)

Tons dropped off. All the stuff mentioned above is good. But seriously, when it comes to stuff that heads can listen to and also crossover, these are the best.

All but Kool Keith got what they deserved.

 

Amen

He is one I always go back to when I get burned out on modern in Hip-Hop and need to listen to something that is dope, artistic and progressive.
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« Reply #200 on: January 03, 2014, 09:11:58 AM »

I used to know the guys in Forbidden Dialect.  They started making more recent stuff.

(old)  "Rock the horns" :  http://youtu.be/zRJ9cujpgEo
 
(recent) "Doonie's shoes" : http://youtu.be/wYSL-FZIy_w

(more recent) "Walk with Paris" : http://youtu.be/Xb5THGvWhGA
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« Reply #201 on: January 03, 2014, 09:25:52 AM »

AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted last night.

And Wayne's Da Drought 3
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« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2014, 01:15:07 PM »

Kool Keith

I've listened to some Kool Keith off and on over the past 10 years or so. I liked what I heard (I think it was mainly stuff from Doctor Octagon and Black Elvis albums) but for whatever reason I didn't dive full on into it. I haven't heard anyone nearly as surreal. He'll be spitting out stuff that appears to make no sense and then suddenly there's a burst of bizarre coherence. What's your favorite later work of his?
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« Reply #203 on: January 15, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »

I hope Mac Dre has been mentioned somewhere on this thread.
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« Reply #204 on: January 15, 2014, 02:32:00 PM »

Kool Keith

I've listened to some Kool Keith off and on over the past 10 years or so. I liked what I heard (I think it was mainly stuff from Doctor Octagon and Black Elvis albums) but for whatever reason I didn't dive full on into it. I haven't heard anyone nearly as surreal. He'll be spitting out stuff that appears to make no sense and then suddenly there's a burst of bizarre coherence. What's your favorite later work of his?

Cause I am lame and for reasons likely more personal than defensible Earth People has to be one of the most perfect* tracks ever made. Even everyone I know (they hate rap) digs the production.

*I think on this board perfection can be argued to be scalable.
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« Reply #205 on: January 15, 2014, 02:33:05 PM »

Back to this threa when I'm of post moderation.

I just picked up the Chess boxset of GZA's Liquid Swords.

You shall never be off post moderation! Mwahahahaha!

I'm a prophet.

Werd.
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« Reply #206 on: January 15, 2014, 07:19:31 PM »

Kool Keith

I've listened to some Kool Keith off and on over the past 10 years or so. I liked what I heard (I think it was mainly stuff from Doctor Octagon and Black Elvis albums) but for whatever reason I didn't dive full on into it. I haven't heard anyone nearly as surreal. He'll be spitting out stuff that appears to make no sense and then suddenly there's a burst of bizarre coherence. What's your favorite later work of his?

Cause I am lame and for reasons likely more personal than defensible Earth People has to be one of the most perfect* tracks ever made. Even everyone I know (they hate rap) digs the production.

*I think on this board perfection can be argued to be scalable.

I have noticed that Kool Keith enjoys a degree of crossover appeal himself, albeit among a weirder set of people than Eminem.
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« Reply #207 on: January 15, 2014, 09:57:39 PM »

Kool Keith

I've listened to some Kool Keith off and on over the past 10 years or so. I liked what I heard (I think it was mainly stuff from Doctor Octagon and Black Elvis albums) but for whatever reason I didn't dive full on into it. I haven't heard anyone nearly as surreal. He'll be spitting out stuff that appears to make no sense and then suddenly there's a burst of bizarre coherence. What's your favorite later work of his?

Cause I am lame and for reasons likely more personal than defensible Earth People has to be one of the most perfect* tracks ever made. Even everyone I know (they hate rap) digs the production.

*I think on this board perfection can be argued to be scalable.

I have noticed that Kool Keith enjoys a degree of crossover appeal himself, albeit among a weirder set of people than Eminem.

Most "headz"  are white and asian predominantly. Hip-hop will be white people watching old black guys some day, like jazz, just a lot better.
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« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2014, 09:47:16 AM »

Kool Keith

I've listened to some Kool Keith off and on over the past 10 years or so. I liked what I heard (I think it was mainly stuff from Doctor Octagon and Black Elvis albums) but for whatever reason I didn't dive full on into it. I haven't heard anyone nearly as surreal. He'll be spitting out stuff that appears to make no sense and then suddenly there's a burst of bizarre coherence. What's your favorite later work of his?

Cause I am lame and for reasons likely more personal than defensible Earth People has to be one of the most perfect* tracks ever made. Even everyone I know (they hate rap) digs the production.

*I think on this board perfection can be argued to be scalable.

I have noticed that Kool Keith enjoys a degree of crossover appeal himself, albeit among a weirder set of people than Eminem.

Most "headz"  are white and asian predominantly. Hip-hop will be white people watching old black guys some day, like jazz, just a lot better.

Heh. What's your problem with jazz anyway?
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« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2014, 12:39:45 PM »

The best rap group ever is Die Antwoord. 

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« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2014, 01:45:23 PM »

The best rap group ever is Die Antwoord. 



It's not hip-hop, it's barely rap. And it sucks. Looks like art school drop outs who shudda hung around for at least another class involving how to decoupage baby dolls and broken mirrors before trying their hand at whatever it is they do.
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« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2014, 01:55:02 PM »

The best rap group ever is Die Antwoord. 



Uh, no.

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« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2014, 01:57:34 PM »

The best rap group ever is Die Antwoord. 



Uh, no.



They do crack me up a little. I think vamrat used to have animated gif as an avatar here of the woman in the band naked or something. It caused me a seizure or two.
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« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2014, 04:22:05 PM »

If Detox ever comes out is it going to live up to all the hype built around it? I can't help but think that Dre has waited too long as most of the people old enough to remember the West Coast's dominance period have grown up and moved on now. I'd bet my bottom dollar that most people who purchase the album--provided it comes out--will be crossover Em fans who only know of Dre as the guy who produced Em, and perhaps the occasional older guy in California who will listen to it once then throw it away.
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« Reply #214 on: January 16, 2014, 04:32:49 PM »

You all just have no zef.


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« Reply #215 on: January 16, 2014, 04:36:03 PM »

If Detox ever comes out is it going to live up to all the hype built around it?

No. It will be rap's Chinese Democracy.
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« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2014, 04:36:54 PM »

You all just have no zef.




I recently had a recurrence of night terrors I used to have as a child. I was just getting over them. Thanks.
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vamrat
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« Reply #217 on: January 16, 2014, 04:56:59 PM »

I am helping you get through this.  You need to confront your nightmares and come out on the other side reborn.  You must transform like Watkins Jones did into DJ Ninja.  Like Anri du Toit who was reborn as Yolandi Vi$$er.  You will face these fears and when you have, you too will be reborn, only Zef-er.

You will be

DJ Ortho-tech.
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Justin Kissel
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #218 on: February 03, 2014, 05:06:33 PM »

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Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
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