Poll

How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?

three
9 (24.3%)
four
1 (2.7%)
five
0 (0%)
six
0 (0%)
seven
20 (54.1%)
eight
1 (2.7%)
nine
3 (8.1%)
I am not an Orthodox Christian, but I wanted to vote.
3 (8.1%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?  (Read 5472 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« on: September 08, 2014, 02:10:41 AM »
Although most Orthodox books say that the Orthodox Church is known for its Seven Ecumenical Councils, some Orthodox believe that there are eight or even nine Ecumenical Councils.

Quote
These two are regarded as ecumenical by some in the Orthodox Church but not by other Orthodox Christians, who instead consider them to be important local councils.

    VIII. Fourth Council of Constantinople, (879-880); restored St. Photius the Great to his see in Constantinople and anathematized any who altered the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, abrogating the decrees of the Robber Council of 869-870. This council was at first accepted as ecumenical by the West but later repudiated in favor of the robber council in 869-870 which had deposed Photius.
    IX. Fifth Council of Constantinople, (1341-1351); affirmed hesychastic theology according to St. Gregory Palamas and condemned the Westernized philosopher Barlaam of Calabria.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils

p.s. This poll is intended for all Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline JamesR

  • The Second Coming of Jason
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,924
  • Remember me?
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 02:17:27 AM »
8, easily. IIRC, we regard one of the councils during the Photian-Nicholas fiasco as being Ecumenical.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 02:20:14 AM »
Maria, what are you hoping to achieve by starting this thread?  ???
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 02:27:54 AM »
8, easily. IIRC, we regard one of the councils during the Photian-Nicholas fiasco as being Ecumenical.

That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.

Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,481
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 02:28:21 AM »
Why there's three, of course.   :angel:

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 02:29:30 AM »
Why there's three, of course.   :angel:

I have not voted yet. I always thought that there were seven until today.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Salpy

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,481
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 02:29:50 AM »
8, easily. IIRC, we regard one of the councils during the Photian-Nicholas fiasco as being Ecumenical.

That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.

Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils



During my time here at OCnet, I've also heard EO's refer to there being eight or nine councils.  

Perhaps some of those who believe in 8 or 9 can give an explanation.  This can be an interesting topic.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 02:31:13 AM »
8, easily. IIRC, we regard one of the councils during the Photian-Nicholas fiasco as being Ecumenical.

That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.

Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils



During my time here at OCnet, I've also heard EO's refer to there being eight or nine councils.  

Perhaps some of those who believe in 8 or 9 can give an explanation.  This can be an interesting topic.

Thank you, Salpy. I hope to learn something too.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline lovesupreme

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,451
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 06:14:21 AM »
"Orthodox" refers to multiple communions, each recognizing a different number of councils.

If you meant "Eastern Orthodox," the traditional answer is 7.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,680
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 06:26:12 AM »
It hardly seems appropriate to decide how many Councils there are before resolving the more important matter of how many texts are in the Bible.  ;)
"Beat the devil out of it." - Bob Ross

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 08:39:43 AM »
It hardly seems appropriate to decide how many Councils there are before resolving the more important matter of how many texts are in the Bible.  ;)
Is Outrage!  Are you suggesting that we all agree on something?  Clearly, you do not have the Orthodox phromena.
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 08:41:43 AM »
I don't know if I would recognize an EC if I saw one walking down the street or in a lineup.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,838
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 08:47:49 AM »
LOL, three is winning! 

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 08:49:01 AM »
"Orthodox" refers to multiple communions, each recognizing a different number of councils.

If you meant "Eastern Orthodox," the traditional answer is 7.

Then to Maria's question, are those Eastern Orthodox who speak of 8 or 9 not "traditional"?

I don't know if I would recognize an EC if I saw one walking down the street or in a lineup.

Take your time, ma'am.  You're safe here.  They can't see you.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2014, 09:03:12 AM »
Maria,

Not a question until today I expected to see raised on OC.net. Having raised it maybe some clarity on the issue may be achieved, in which case well done.

My suspicion is though that clarity might be hard to come by.

And my twopence worth, Seven Ecumenical Councils. Fr George Metallinos I have a lot of respect for and will dig around to see what he does or doesn't say.

But thank you again for raising what might be an interesting topic. At least we may discuss it and see where it leads.  ;)

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,153
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2014, 09:06:12 AM »
There are 9 Ecumenical Councils.  Here is some helpful relevant information:

http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/synodoi/oik_syn1.htm


Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 09:40:47 AM »
This too may add some clarity www.frmilovan.wordpress.com/2013/0330/the-8th-and-9th-ecumenical-councils/

Certainly found it both interesting and surprising, not least because of the mention of St Justin.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:44:29 AM by Santagranddad »

Offline Skydive

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 09:51:54 AM »
Arguing with Orthodox it's like who's trying to be more Orthodox than the other.

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2014, 09:59:16 AM »
Arguing with Orthodox it's like who's trying to be more Orthodox than the other.

Listen, as one who long ago learnt putting two Jews or Psychologists in a room lead to three opinions, don't over egg the mark. And the arguing was often stimulating too.

And in this thread so far, apart from one negative comment, there only appears some pleasant leg pulling and a quest for clarity. And interesting titbits to consider and reflect upon.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,996
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 10:09:06 AM »
If it's universally received and accepted does the verbiage really matter? I don't get the arguing over "7, 8, or 9 Ecumenical Councils?". There are so many arguments over things like this and it's just pointless.
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 10:09:57 AM »
If it's universally received and accepted does the verbiage really matter? I don't get the arguing over "7, 8, or 9 Ecumenical Councils?". There are so many arguments over things like this and it's just pointless.

This.

[/thread]
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline jah777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,153
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 10:40:17 AM »
If it's universally received and accepted does the verbiage really matter? I don't get the arguing over "7, 8, or 9 Ecumenical Councils?". There are so many arguments over things like this and it's just pointless.

All Orthodox churches accepted the decisions of the 8th & 9th Ecumenical Councils even if some only think there are 7 Ecumenical Councils.  St. Gregory Palamas, for instance, is honored by all Orthodox on the Second Sunday of the Great Fast when he is proclaimed "light of Orthodoxy", "teacher of the Church", "invincible champion of theologians", "God-inspired", "Holy and divine instrument of wisdom", and "joyful trumpet of theology".  However, since there regrettably are, even among our hierarchs, those who sometimes downplay the significance of the Filioque and the teachings of St. Gregory Palamas in a seeming attempt to unite hastily with Roman Catholicism, the universal acknowledgement of the 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils by all Orthodox would be very helpful in emphasizing the importance of these teachings for the Orthodox Church and the need for Roman Catholicism to also accept these teachings for any kind of true union with Orthodoxy to be possible.

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 10:48:17 AM »
The only ones arguing are the detractors of the thread, others are trying to share the writings of Orthodox theologians that may not be widely known. If there was an argument ongoing you might have a point, but so far yours is the only attempt to make or condemn it for something it isn't.

If this is the measure of OC.net then it confirms my fears.

However I for one have found the so-called 'verbiage' interesting and from authoritative sources too.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2014, 10:52:57 AM »
The only ones arguing are the detractors of the thread, others are trying to share the writings of Orthodox theologians that may not be widely known. If there was an argument ongoing you might have a point, but so far yours is the only attempt to make or condemn it for something it isn't.

If this is the measure of OC.net then it confirms my fears.

However I for one have found the so-called 'verbiage' interesting and from authoritative sources too.

Perhaps some of us "detractors" have been around long enough to know that the question asked by the OP is of no consequence at all in the grand scheme of things. What is of importance is what these councils teach, and how these teachings affect our faith and salvation.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,621
  • Ευλογημένη Σαρακοστή
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2014, 11:11:34 AM »
That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.
Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils


If you want to play it safe, let's average it out:  3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 = 42.  42/7 = 6.  Then add 1 because it is a unique number.  The answer if 7.  :angel:

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2014, 11:14:30 AM »
That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.
Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils


If you want to play it safe, let's average it out:  3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 = 42.  42/7 = 6.  Then add 1 because it is a unique number.  The answer if 7.  :angel:
Can such wisdom come out of Nazareth?  :angel:
God bless!

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2014, 12:21:45 PM »
Gamliel's response raised a smile and chuckle from me. Bravo!

And I am still following on digging and reading following this seeing the topic raised. Once again very interesting and doesn't in any way detract from what was taught, only appears to add some clarity. So once again, thank you, Maria.


Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,838
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2014, 12:38:08 PM »
LOL, three is winning! 

I knew that wouldn't last longer than the Liturgy...

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2014, 12:42:02 PM »
LOL, three is winning! 

I knew that wouldn't last longer than the Liturgy...
I rounded up my posse. We ain't goin' to allow no heathen non-Chalcedonians to usurp the good name of Orthodoxy.
God bless!

Offline Santagranddad

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,198
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2014, 12:56:44 PM »
LOL, three is winning! 

I knew that wouldn't last longer than the Liturgy...
I rounded up my posse. We ain't goin' to allow no heathen non-Chalcedonians to usurp the good name of Orthodoxy.

Pleeeeeeeease, don't make me laugh so hard!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2014, 01:03:34 PM »
I rounded up my posse. We ain't goin' to allow no heathen non-Chalcedonians to usurp the good name of Orthodoxy.

Pfft...


Your Posse



Our Posse

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2014, 01:06:23 PM »
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 01:07:27 PM by DeniseDenise »
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2014, 01:10:37 PM »
Oh snap!  Denise wins it.  :laugh:
God bless!

Offline Antonious Nikolas

  • Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,237
  • Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Oriental Orthodox Church
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2014, 01:37:55 PM »
Our Posse





So that's the Western Rite?

Yes.  And you should hear their "explicit epiclesis"!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 01:38:44 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2014, 01:41:49 PM »
There are 9 Ecumenical Councils.  Here is some helpful relevant information:

http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/synodoi/oik_syn1.htm



Interesting.

Contrary to what some members here have implied, Metropolitan Hierotheos who remains under the EP and Father John Romanides who remained in the GOARCH before his death, are not "traditionalists" by any means. Yet both contributed writings supporting the idea that the 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils met the required characteristics for them to be confirmed as an Ecumenical Synod.

Quote
In a previous chapter, we outlined the required characteristics of a Synod acceptable by the Church, in order for it to be confirmed as an Ecumenical Synod.  These characteristics are found in all nine (plus the Quinisext) Synods that we mentioned above.  These characteristics, which are set out in this article, have been taken from the book of the Rev. Metropolitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos Vlachos, titled “Ecclesiastic Conviction”, (published by Genethlion of Theotokos). The Ecumenical status of the 9th Ecumenical Synod is also analyzed therein, extensively.  ...

Of course, the most important Orthodox Theologian of the 20th century – father John Romanides – (Graduate of the Greek College of Brookline Massachusetts, the Yale University’s School of Theology, Doctor of the School of Theology of the Capodistrian University of Athens, the Philosophical School of Harvard University (School of Arts and Sciences. Professor Emeritus of the School of Theology of the Aristotelian University of Thessaloniki and Visiting Professor of the Theological School of Saint John the Damasceneof the Balamand University of Lebanon since 1970. He has also studied with the Russian Seminar of Saint Vladimir of New York, and the also Russian Institute of Saint Serge in Paris and Munich, Germany) is in full agreement with the aforementioned positions.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2014, 01:51:43 PM »
If it's universally received and accepted does the verbiage really matter? I don't get the arguing over "7, 8, or 9 Ecumenical Councils?". There are so many arguments over things like this and it's just pointless.

All Orthodox churches accepted the decisions of the 8th & 9th Ecumenical Councils even if some only think there are 7 Ecumenical Councils.  St. Gregory Palamas, for instance, is honored by all Orthodox on the Second Sunday of the Great Fast when he is proclaimed "light of Orthodoxy", "teacher of the Church", "invincible champion of theologians", "God-inspired", "Holy and divine instrument of wisdom", and "joyful trumpet of theology".  However, since there regrettably are, even among our hierarchs, those who sometimes downplay the significance of the Filioque and the teachings of St. Gregory Palamas in a seeming attempt to unite hastily with Roman Catholicism, the universal acknowledgement of the 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils by all Orthodox would be very helpful in emphasizing the importance of these teachings for the Orthodox Church and the need for Roman Catholicism to also accept these teachings for any kind of true union with Orthodoxy to be possible.

Ah, so does Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) who holds to only Seven Ecumenical Councils, not believe that the 8th and 9th Councils are truly Ecumenical? After all, he did APPEAR to teach in his The Orthodox Church that one could still believe in the Roman Catholic dogmas of the filioque and in the Immaculate Conception and still remain in the Orthodox Church.

The 8th Ecumenical Council condemned the filioque. http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogma/synodoi/oik_syn1.htm

Quote
It [the 8th Ecumenical Council] anathematized the “Filioque” addition to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which had just begun to be imposed, abrogating the decrees of the Robber Council of 869-870.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2014, 01:54:00 PM »
The only ones arguing are the detractors of the thread, others are trying to share the writings of Orthodox theologians that may not be widely known. If there was an argument ongoing you might have a point, but so far yours is the only attempt to make or condemn it for something it isn't.

If this is the measure of OC.net then it confirms my fears.

However I for one have found the so-called 'verbiage' interesting and from authoritative sources too.

Perhaps some of us "detractors" have been around long enough to know that the question asked by the OP is of no consequence at all in the grand scheme of things. What is of importance is what these councils teach, and how these teachings affect our faith and salvation.

LBK, you cannot represent the thinking of the entire OC . net community.

I still have not voted, but am studying this issue. Your remarks to the contrary are not helping matters.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2014, 01:55:29 PM »
I can't speak for Metropolitan Ware, but I'm pretty sure that he would say that while we accept the first seven as ecumenical, the 8th and 9th accurately portray Orthodox doctrine.
God bless!

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,680
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2014, 02:05:08 PM »
This too may add some clarity www.frmilovan.wordpress.com/2013/0330/the-8th-and-9th-ecumenical-councils/

Certainly found it both interesting and surprising, not least because of the mention of St Justin.

Though misidentified as John in the link, I assume St. Justin was meant. Nonetheless, St. Justin is not quoted, and the document referred to by St. Justin was one critical of the Council they were planning back then (1977), which is essentially the same one they are planning to have in 2016, though they do not currently claim it to have potentially-Ecumenical status, so far as I know. This article by St. Justin, while not ruling out in theory the possibility of another Ecumenical Council, nonetheless makes no mention of the number of Ecumenical councils, and does not mention an eighth or ninth.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/stjustin_council.aspx
"Beat the devil out of it." - Bob Ross

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2014, 02:07:59 PM »
Maria,

Not a question until today I expected to see raised on OC.net. Having raised it maybe some clarity on the issue may be achieved, in which case well done.

My suspicion is though that clarity might be hard to come by.

And my twopence worth, Seven Ecumenical Councils. Fr George Metallinos I have a lot of respect for and will dig around to see what he does or doesn't say.

But thank you again for raising what might be an interesting topic. At least we may discuss it and see where it leads.  ;)

Thank you.

I still have not voted, but my first inclination is to go with the majority and say that there are only seven Ecumenical Council because HOCNA, a rather rebellious group, who is neither in communion with the EP or MP, and who is not considered True Orthodox but is beholden only to themselves, supports the idea of nine Ecumenical Councils.  Therefore, I would like further information.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,680
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2014, 02:08:10 PM »
Fwiw, something I posted elsewhere...

Why haven't there been any recent ecumenical councils?

It is generally agreed that the last Ecumenical Council was in AD 787, so the question arises: why hasn't there been one since then?  Before I give some of the answers I've seen for that question, though, I should point out that a minority in the Orthodox world do believe that there was an 8th Council, and perhaps a 9th one as well. For example, the much-respected Met. Hierotheos mentions this in chapter 9 of his book The Mind of the Orthodox Church, and in another book says:

Quote
The hesychastic confict, as it was called, ended with the Councils which took place in Constantinople in 1341, 1346 and 1351. The Last Council, which 'justified' St. Gregory Palamas, proponent of the hesychastic life, is considered to be Ecumenical: 'We think that the Council of Constantinople in the time of Saint Gregory Palamas in 1351, judging at least on the basis of its great theological work, can be and deserves to be counted among the Ecumenical Councils of the Orthodox Church, to which it is in now way inferior as to the soteriological significance of its theology. This Council constitutes the proof of the continuing conciliarity of the Orthodox Church and of the living experience and theology concerning salvation in Christ' . . .hesychasm [has] been 'justified' by the Council of Constantinople and consequently one who speaks against these things is no longer within the Orthodox tradition and at any rate creates preconditions for being cut off from its life.

-- Met. Hierotheos, Orthodox Psychotherapy: The Science of the Fathers, (Birth of the Theotokos Monastery, 1994), pp. 326-327, 330-331

(Met. Hierotheos is quoting: Athanasius Gievtits. Christ Beginning and End. p. 195. In Gk.)

Another respected theologian, Fr. John Romanides, says the following:

Quote
When it became clear that the Franks were not going to retreat from these politico-doctrinal policies, the Romans [ie. Orthodox] accepted the challenge and condemned both the Filioque and the Frankish double position on icons at the Eighth Ecumenical Synod of 879 in Constantinople-New Rome. From the Roman [ie. Orthodox] viewpoint, however, the Roman tradition of the Fathers was not only not terminated in the eighth century, but continued a vigorous existence in free Romania in the East, as well as within Arab-occupied areas. Present research is now leading to the conclusion that the Roman Patristic period extended right in tot he period of Ottoman rule, after the fall of Constantinople New Rome. This means that the Eighth Ecumenical Synod (879), under Photios, the so-called Palamite Synods of the fourteenth century, and the Synods of the Roman Patriarchate during the Ottoman period, are all a continuation and an integral part of the history of Patristic theology. It is also a continuation of the Roman Christian tradition, minus the Patriarchate of Old Rome, which, since 1009 after having been captured, ceased to be Roman and became a Frankish institution.

-- Fr. John S. Romanides, Franks, Romans, Feudalism and Doctrine, Part 3

Fr. John says elsewhere:

Quote
All who have reached glorification testify to the fact that "it is impossible to express God and even more impossible to conceive Him" because they know by their experience that there is no similarity whatsoever between the created and the uncreated. God is "unmoved mover" and "moved" and "neither one. nor oneness nor unity,. nor divinity... nor sonship, nor fatherhood, etc." in the experience of glorification. The Bible and dogmas are guides to and abolished during glorification. They are not ends in themselves and have nothing to do with metaphysics, either with analogia entis or with analogia fidei. This means that words and concepts which do not contradict the experience of glorification and which lead to purification and illumination of the heart and glorification are Orthodox. Words and concepts which contradict glorification and lead away from cure and perfection in Christ are heretical. This is the key to the decisions of all Seven Roman Ecumenical Councils as well as that of the Eighth of 879 and especially of the Ninth of 1341.

-- Fr. John S. Romanides, Church Synods and Civilization

Fr. John discusses briefly the idea elsewhere as well (e.g. here and even includes it in the sub-title here).

The Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs from 1848, signed by many Orthodox bishops, including the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria, also mentions an 8th Ecumenical Council.  And while Met. Kallistos does not go as far, he nonetheless does say in his book The Orthodox Church that:

Quote
His teachings [ie. those of Saint Gregory Palamas] was confirmed by two councils held at Constantinople in 1341 and 1351, which, although local and not Ecumenical, yet possess a doctrinal authority in Orthodox theology scarcely inferior to the seven general councils themselves.

-- Bishop Kallistos, The Orthodox Church (New Edition), (Penguin Books, 1997), p. 67

Later in the same book he lists the councils of 1341 and 1351, and also the Encyclical Letter of Saint Photius from 867, as being among the "chief Orthodox doctrinal statements" since the 7th Ecumenical Council. (p. 203)  

However, as was mentioned, the idea that there were 8th and 9th (or more) councils is a minority viewpoint. And even if you do accept that there were 8th and 9th Councils, the last one would still have been over 600 years ago. Why is that?

I don't claim to know for sure, but I've seen some answers which seem to me to make sense, and I think taken together they answer the question well enough. First, there is no longer an Emperor to call the council. All of the first seven Ecumenical Councils were called by the Roman Emperors, and they facilitated the proceedings taking place. Another idea is that there is no longer an empire, an ecumene, and thus no longer Ecumenical Councils.

And it has been argued that we simply haven't needed another such council. There have been pan-Orthodox and local councils, but it's been said that we haven't needed an ecumenical one. There have been lots of heresies, sure, but some argue that the seven Ecumenical Councils dealt with a particular set of heresies, those of a christological nature. It could then be said that, for a short period of about 450 years (325-787) there was a group of heresies that needed to be dealt with, and so the Church dealt with them in a special way. According to this line of reasoning, no Ecumenical Councils were needed before 325, and none were needed after 787.

How the current preparations for the upcoming council--whether called general or pan-orthodox or ecumenical--will impact these arguments and viewpoints, I don't know.
"Beat the devil out of it." - Bob Ross

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,621
  • Ευλογημένη Σαρακοστή
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2014, 02:14:43 PM »
I still have not voted, but my first inclination is to go with the majority and say that there are only seven Ecumenical Council because HOCNA, a rather rebellious group, who is neither in communion with the EP or MP, and who is not considered True Orthodox but is beholden only to themselves, supports the idea of nine Ecumenical Councils.  Therefore, I would like further information.
Before you vote, remember that you must be 18 or older, and you need to register. :police:

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2014, 02:24:34 PM »
I can't speak for Metropolitan Ware, but I'm pretty sure that he would say that while we accept the first seven as ecumenical, the 8th and 9th accurately portray Orthodox doctrine.

I did have the pleasure of meeting Met. Ware in person and enjoyed listening to his talks when he came to Los Angeles.

Nevertheless, why did Met. Ware seem to agree that Roman Catholics who are converting to Orthodoxy can still believe in the filioque and the Immaculate Conception? I admit that his book and his statements regarding these two Roman Catholic dogmas helped me along the path to Orthodoxy, but as I have come to understand Orthodox theology better, I feel that he might be misleading people. The 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils are extremely important in that these councils reject not only the Roman filioque, but also the Roman teaching that sanctifying grace is a created grace rather than an uncreated Energy of God, and that the Holy Light of the Transfiguration is not a created light, but the Uncreated Light of the Holy Trinity.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline dzheremi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,417
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2014, 02:30:25 PM »
LOL, three is winning! 

Hmmm...how odd...three was winning when I went to sleep (because it's correct, dagnabit), but now a bunch of Johnny-come-latelys appear to have shown up and skewed the results in their favor. What an unprecedented development in the history of the church! :o

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: How many Ecumenical Councils do the Orthodox recognize?
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2014, 02:33:03 PM »
That is what I also heard. Then today, someone boldly proclaimed that there are 9 Ecumenical Councils. This was news to me as the Orthodox catechisms I read and the book on The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware taught that there were only seven Holy Ecumenical Councils. In addition, we have various celebrations on the Sundays of the year for some of these Ecumenical Councils, but I never heard of an 8th or 9th until just recently.
Quote
Others, including 20th century theologians Fr. John S. Romanides and Fr. George Metallinos (both of whom refer repeatedly to the "Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils"), Fr. George Dragas, Metropolitan Hierotheos (Vlachos) of Nafpaktos, and the 1848 Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs (which refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three), regard other synods beyond the Seventh Ecumenical Council as being ecumenical

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils


If you want to play it safe, let's average it out:  3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 = 42.  42/7 = 6.  Then add 1 because it is a unique number.  The answer if 7.  :angel:

Sounds like the newest edition of Modern Math.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.