Author Topic: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos  (Read 25584 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« on: September 07, 2014, 01:48:07 PM »
For those of you on the New Calendar where the feast if the nativity of the Theotokos is tomorrow, did any parishes transfer the feast to today?  There was an option n the liturgical guide from antochian.org to do precisely that.  I'm just curious if any parishes did this, antiochian and others.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 02:08:00 PM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 02:18:39 PM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 02:24:01 PM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?

Yes, but transferring forwards, rather than anticipating, has fewer chances to mess up fast days.

On the particular occasion, we will be having DL tomorrow. If it were the Dormition, we would transfer to the next Sunday. Probably having to do with practical considerations, like expected attendance.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 07:23:28 PM »
My understanding and long observation is that if feasts are to be transferred, they are celebrated on a later date, never on an earlier date than the actual feast day. The most common form of transfer is to the coming weekend if the feast falls on a weekday.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 07:26:01 PM »
We celebrated the feast today. Antiochian.

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 08:06:50 PM »
I'm in the GOA. Today we commemorated Sts. Sozon and Kassiani.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 10:56:21 PM »
My understanding and long observation is that if feasts are to be transferred, they are celebrated on a later date, never on an earlier date than the actual feast day. The most common form of transfer is to the coming weekend if the feast falls on a weekday.

You probably couldn't do it this way this year with the 8 September feast. 
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 11:44:11 PM »
My understanding and long observation is that if feasts are to be transferred, they are celebrated on a later date, never on an earlier date than the actual feast day. The most common form of transfer is to the coming weekend if the feast falls on a weekday.

You probably couldn't do it this way this year with the 8 September feast. 
Yes, it is common enough here (in the US) for a Monday feast to be celebrated Sunday (when nearly everyone is off of work). Had Labor Day come this week, i.e. tommorrow, though, the Feast would have been celebrated tomorrow.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 09:39:39 AM »
Today I was at the Liturgy of the feast. Nothing was transferred, and I think it's not the practice of the Polish Orthodox Church, except the cases given by typikon (e.g the previous year feast of st. George according to the new calendar).

And I think it shouldn't be transferred, as in Orthodoxy we have post-festal days, with almost the same content - so if some people can't come, they will enjoy the message of the feast later. And I think that nowadays parishes should adopt the hours of the Liturgies that it would be more suitable for the parishioners - e.g Liturgy at 6 in the morning in the place of 9 AM.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 12:17:02 PM »
Today I was at the Liturgy of the feast. Nothing was transferred, and I think it's not the practice of the Polish Orthodox Church, except the cases given by typikon (e.g the previous year feast of st. George according to the new calendar).

And I think it shouldn't be transferred, as in Orthodoxy we have post-festal days, with almost the same content - so if some people can't come, they will enjoy the message of the feast later.

I alluded to this above: the post-festal period for this feast (8-12 Sept) does not extend into the weekend this year, and Sunday is the feast of the Cross.  Unless you keep the feast on its actual day, I don't see any way to make it more convenient for people in parishes unless you transfer it to 7 September.  And while I like keeping the feasts on their proper dates, I don't think transferring this feast to the 7th is so bad.   

Quote
And I think that nowadays parishes should adopt the hours of the Liturgies that it would be more suitable for the parishioners - e.g Liturgy at 6 in the morning in the place of 9 AM.

Ugh.  I'd rather have a Vigil the night before, with Liturgy immediately following Matins.  I'm not a morning person.  :)
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 12:36:35 PM »
Today I was at the Liturgy of the feast. Nothing was transferred, and I think it's not the practice of the Polish Orthodox Church, except the cases given by typikon (e.g the previous year feast of st. George according to the new calendar).

And I think it shouldn't be transferred, as in Orthodoxy we have post-festal days, with almost the same content - so if some people can't come, they will enjoy the message of the feast later.

I alluded to this above: the post-festal period for this feast (8-12 Sept) does not extend into the weekend this year, and Sunday is the feast of the Cross.  Unless you keep the feast on its actual day, I don't see any way to make it more convenient for people in parishes unless you transfer it to 7 September.  And while I like keeping the feasts on their proper dates, I don't think transferring this feast to the 7th is so bad.   

Quote
And I think that nowadays parishes should adopt the hours of the Liturgies that it would be more suitable for the parishioners - e.g Liturgy at 6 in the morning in the place of 9 AM.

Ugh.  I'd rather have a Vigil the night before, with Liturgy immediately following Matins.  I'm not a morning person.  :)


and staying out that late -still- means those who work the next day can't go...

so there is sometimes no actual good way of doing it that allows the majority to attend.....
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 12:56:36 PM »
"NVM" (duplicate)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 12:57:56 PM by Mor Ephrem »
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 12:57:21 PM »
and staying out that late -still- means those who work the next day can't go...

so there is sometimes no actual good way of doing it that allows the majority to attend.....

Though I am not a morning person, I prefer Liturgy in the morning.  But I've never seen a weekday morning Liturgy, no matter how early or late, as well attended as a Vigil/Liturgy or Vesperal Liturgy the evening/night before.  But in both cases, the attendance doesn't approach Sunday morning's congregation, even when the day is a holiday (e.g., Labor Day).  How much of this problem is really about the inconvenience caused to those who work and how much is really about the inconvenience caused by worship?  In more than ten years of observation, I'm not convinced it is all about "reasons worthy of a blessing".   
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2014, 12:59:25 PM »
Fair enough...


I am just saying that moving it to the night before sometimes doesn't help a larger number of folks.


I can only speak for myself, in that I -would- try to attend more weekday Liturgies and Feasts...but then I would end up with no job. 
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2014, 01:05:01 PM »
We celebrated Great Vespers with Litiya last night at 7 PM, with a Divine Liturgy this morning at 8 AM.

Instruction after Divine Liturgy yesterday morning:  "Try to make at least one of them."  That's the usual.

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 01:11:02 PM »
We celebrated Great Vespers with Litiya last night at 7 PM, with a Divine Liturgy this morning at 8 AM.

Instruction after Divine Liturgy yesterday morning:  "Try to make at least one of them."  That's the usual.

I've never heard this actually recommended by a priest, but it's my personal rule of thumb in less than ideal situations. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 02:55:15 PM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
I thought the Annunciation never moves, not even on Pascha. There are extensive rubrics for how to do Annunciation on every day of Holy Week, including Pascha (which makes it "Kyriopascha"). Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2014, 04:10:11 PM »
Slavs don't move it, which is the older practice.  Greeks move it to avoid the complications.  That started with Violakis, I think.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 05:04:55 PM »
We celebrated Great Vespers with Litiya last night at 7 PM, with a Divine Liturgy this morning at 8 AM.

Instruction after Divine Liturgy yesterday morning:  "Try to make at least one of them."  That's the usual.

I've never heard this actually recommended by a priest, but it's my personal rule of thumb in less than ideal situations. 

I have heard this in sermons / announcements on more than one occasion.  "This is a Great Feast, so you should try to make at least one of the services we are having in connection with it."

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
I thought the Annunciation never moves, not even on Pascha. There are extensive rubrics for how to do Annunciation on every day of Holy Week, including Pascha (which makes it "Kyriopascha"). Please correct me if I am wrong.

THere's a note about this in the Festal Menaion.  I'll look when I get home. I don't know if it's Slav use or Greek use or both.  Stay tuned.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2014, 03:36:57 AM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
I thought the Annunciation never moves, not even on Pascha. There are extensive rubrics for how to do Annunciation on every day of Holy Week, including Pascha (which makes it "Kyriopascha"). Please correct me if I am wrong.

THere's a note about this in the Festal Menaion.  I'll look when I get home. I don't know if it's Slav use or Greek use or both.  Stay tuned.

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 05:50:58 AM by Arachne »
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2014, 05:26:52 AM »
Sorry, the previous post was made by my son using my account. It won't happen again.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 09:40:02 AM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
I thought the Annunciation never moves, not even on Pascha. There are extensive rubrics for how to do Annunciation on every day of Holy Week, including Pascha (which makes it "Kyriopascha"). Please correct me if I am wrong.

THere's a note about this in the Festal Menaion.  I'll look when I get home. I don't know if it's Slav use or Greek use or both.  Stay tuned.

I checked the Festal Menaion and there is a footnote that says in the "modern Greek practice" by which he means, I'm sure, the revisions made by Violakis, the feast of Annunciation is transferred whenever it coincides with Holy Friday, Holy Saturday or Pascha.  But, Metropolitan KALLISTOS also states that since the adoption of the Revised Calendar in the 1920s by many Orthodox churches, this is very unlikely to happen.
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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 09:42:38 AM »
Our (Antiochian) parish never does that, for this or any other feast. We've celebrated up to six days late, but never even a single day early.

There are some rules about the transfer of some feasts notably Annunciation if it should fall in Holy Week or on Pascha, but that's more of an issue withhold calendar jurisdictions.  But, if you celebrate a feast late, are you still not transferring it?
I thought the Annunciation never moves, not even on Pascha. There are extensive rubrics for how to do Annunciation on every day of Holy Week, including Pascha (which makes it "Kyriopascha"). Please correct me if I am wrong.

THere's a note about this in the Festal Menaion.  I'll look when I get home. I don't know if it's Slav use or Greek use or both.  Stay tuned.

I checked the Festal Menaion and there is a footnote that says in the "modern Greek practice" by which he means, I'm sure, the revisions made by Violakis, the feast of Annunciation is transferred whenever it coincides with Holy Friday, Holy Saturday or Pascha.  But, Metropolitan KALLISTOS also states that since the adoption of the Revised Calendar in the 1920s by many Orthodox churches, this is very unlikely to happen.

Practically impossible, seeing as those 13 days would bring the earliest possible date of Pascha into April.
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Transfer of the feast if the Natvity of the Theotokos
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2014, 08:34:32 PM »
My parish is OCA and we celebrated it on Monday, September 8.  We don't move feasts to a Sunday if they are on Monday.  We had Vespers Sunday night and then the liturgy yesterday morning.