Author Topic: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month  (Read 17828 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,799
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2014, 10:07:17 PM »
How is Ebola spread, what preventative measures can every individual take? Basic questions that no major corporate media channel has dared to ask.

I have seen it on CNN, the BBC and other places. To get it, you pretty much have to come in contact with a person's bodily fluids.



Sneeze and sweat are body fluids.  It only takes between one and ten organisms to infect a person, and it can live outside the body for several days.  This has been known for years.  It can also be transmitted between animals and humans, making containment difficult if not impossible. The experimental vaccine used on the first to patients was developed by the US Military.  The Russian Military is in West Africa right now (probably why we sent troops over there) working on a vaccine.  From what I have read, they may be close -  if the stuff does not mutate.  Some similar viruses are suspected to be airborne, so it may only be a matter of time for this one. 

I wrote a research paper some years ago on Nuclear, Chemical and Biological warfare.  Of the three, the latter is considered the most dangerous.  We know what Radiation does, and we know what most Chemicals do.  The biological agents are less controllable.  Living things tend to evolve to adapt to their surroundings.  Viruses do it faster than most things.  And then there are Prions . . .
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2014, 02:24:46 AM »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2014, 02:51:16 AM »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2014, 02:53:24 AM »
Quote
The patient in Dallas being treated for Ebola has been given an experimental drug but remains in critical condition, the hospital said Monday. Thomas Eric Duncan got a drug called brincidofovir, made by North Carolina-based Chimerix. The Food and Drug Administration approved its experimental use Monday against Ebola.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/dallas-ebola-patient-gets-experimental-drug-n219566

Sadly, this drug did not work, and Duncan died on Wednesday, October 8, 2014.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:54:06 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2014, 08:58:16 AM »
Understanding how Ebola is transmitted requires believing in germs. Lots of Liberians and other West Africans don't, which is why it's spread so rapidly there: health aid workers just can't get the locals to understand how it works. They think it's a white man's curse or something. This is probably why Duncan lied about his health before boarding his plane: it's easy to deny possibly having Ebola when you don't even believe it's a disease that is passed from person to person.

It was a similar problem with Typhoid Mary a century ago: she came from rural Ireland and was utterly ignorant of modern medicine. She simply would not believe her doctors who told her not to handle food; since she wasn't sick herself as an asymptomatic carrier, she couldn't see how she could spread the disease to others. That's why they had to lock her up against her will.

Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 08:59:39 AM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2014, 09:00:21 AM »
Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.

Hear, hear!

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2014, 11:00:08 AM »
Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.

Hear, hear!
What good would such a move have done? Would not such a restriction discourage anyone from going to give aid to the sick and dying there, knowing that we won't let them return home for treatment if they should acquire the disease there?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2014, 11:01:45 AM »
Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.

Hear, hear!
Would not such a restriction discourage anyone from going to give aid to the sick and dying there, knowing that we won't let them return home for treatment if they should acquire the disease there?

Perhaps, but at least they won't get to infect their neighbours. If they want to be a hero they could take the land route to Africa and stay there until the epidemic is over and there's 100% certainty that they don't have ebola.

Quarantine the area is the first thing you should do with any epidemic.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:06:43 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 639
  • Send lawyers, guns, and money
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2014, 11:06:25 AM »
Just in reference to the 'what good would it have done' bit ... A nurse in Dallas wouldn't be stricken with Ebola.

I don't get it. We quarantine people when they get ill. Conversly, flying them all over tarnation seems like a terrible alternative.


Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.

Hear, hear!
What good would such a move have done? Would not such a restriction discourage anyone from going to give aid to the sick and dying there, knowing that we won't let them return home for treatment if they should acquire the disease there?

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2014, 11:09:15 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2014, 11:26:04 AM »
Just in reference to the 'what good would it have done' bit ... A nurse in Dallas wouldn't be stricken with Ebola.

I don't get it. We quarantine people when they get ill. Conversly, flying them all over tarnation seems like a terrible alternative.


Of course, any administration with half a brain between them would have just stopped all flights from infected countries the moment this became news.

Hear, hear!
What good would such a move have done? Would not such a restriction discourage anyone from going to give aid to the sick and dying there, knowing that we won't let them return home for treatment if they should acquire the disease there?

Stupid and ignorant wishful thinking defines most of our government policies on just about anything. Why should disease control be any different?

Offline Adela

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,095
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2014, 11:26:45 AM »
Quarantine seems like a civic duty with something like this.  I was always amazed when I worked in a hospital and family members would become enraged when told they needed to wear protective gear , just a paper gown and mask and little paper shoe covers and gloves, when visiting someone with something way less severe than Ebola. And they would refuse to gown up and would march right into the room anyway.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2014, 11:27:06 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,519
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2014, 11:30:41 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

there are in fact -more- connecting flights from Europe then there are direct flights.  And currently there is not a way to block only based on where they were before, if they are flying in from say London, you can't stop every flight from everywhere outside the US...


well you could, but then we would be North Korea.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2014, 11:33:07 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment.

Would more or less people have died if the village of the first ebola patient would have been put into quarantine?

Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

there are in fact -more- connecting flights from Europe then there are direct flights.  And currently there is not a way to block only based on where they were before, if they are flying in from say London, you can't stop every flight from everywhere outside the US...


well you could, but then we would be North Korea.

For everyone with the wrong stamp in his passport:

« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:36:07 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2014, 11:37:30 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

Thanks for illustrating my point about what characterizes our approach to important public issues.  ::)

When it comes to helping the Liberians, most of their problems are self-inflicted. Their population is phenomenally ignorant and can't be persuaded to take the most basic precautions against spreading the disease, which is what makes the attempts to help them so frustrating. I'm not saying charitable Westerners shouldn't continue to try to help, but just don't get your hopes too high and don't sacrifice the interests of your own home country in the process. That includes accepting that you won't be allowed back in your home country if you contract the disease out there. Why should the health of your fellow citizens be put on the line just to make you feel better?

As for the alleged futility of blocking flights only from the countries where it's an epidemic, that's kind of dumb, even for you PtA ;). The point is it will minimize the possibility of the disease spreading here. Of course, for people trying to enter the US indirectly you can always just deny entry to those holding passports from those countries.

This is a serious public health matter and not time to indulge in sentimentalism.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2014, 11:38:55 AM »
In the wake of the Duncan case, three strategies to contain the entry and spread of Ebola in the United States have been proposed. The first suggests drastic restrictions on travel from Ebola-affected nations. The second involves screening travelers from Ebola-affected areas with a thermometer, which the federal government is beginning to do at selected airports. The third proposes the isolation of all suspected symptomatic patients and monitoring or quarantining everyone who came into contact with them.

Yet all these strategies have crucial flaws. In the absence of any established anti-viral treatment, we may need to rethink the concept of quarantine itself.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/13/opinion/how-to-quarantine-against-ebola.html?_r=0

Some things to think about on the subject of a quarantine
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2014, 11:41:52 AM »
Quarantine seems like a civic duty with something like this.  I was always amazed when I worked in a hospital and family members would become enraged when told they needed to wear protective gear , just a paper gown and mask and little paper shoe covers and gloves, when visiting someone with something way less severe than Ebola. And they would refuse to gown up and would march right into the room anyway.

Most people are morons. There's a reason democracy was ridiculed throughout most of history.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2014, 11:42:49 AM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

Thanks for illustrating my point about what characterizes our approach to important public issues.  ::)

When it comes to helping the Liberians, most of their problems are self-inflicted. Their population is phenomenally ignorant and can't be persuaded to take the most basic precautions against spreading the disease, which is what makes the attempts to help them so frustrating. I'm not saying charitable Westerners shouldn't continue to try to help, but just don't get your hopes too high and don't sacrifice the interests of your own home country in the process. That includes accepting that you won't be allowed back in your home country if you contract the disease out there. Why should the health of your fellow citizens be put on the line just to make you feel better?

As for the alleged futility of blocking flights only from the countries where it's an epidemic, that's kind of dumb, even for you PtA ;). The point is it will minimize the possibility of the disease spreading here. Of course, for people trying to enter the US indirectly you can always just deny entry to those holding passports from those countries.

This is a serious public health matter and not time to indulge in sentimentalism.
Yes, this is a serious public health matter. No, I'm not indulging in sentimentalism and resent the implication that I am. Like you, I am trying to come to a common sense solution that addresses all issues in a thoughtful manner. I'm just not sure that the medieval concept of a quarantine is the best solution because of its own flaws. We may need to rethink our ideas of how best to isolate Ebola and keep it from causing an epidemic here.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:43:41 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Opus118

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,273
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2014, 11:53:37 AM »
Quarantine seems like a civic duty with something like this.  I was always amazed when I worked in a hospital and family members would become enraged when told they needed to wear protective gear , just a paper gown and mask and little paper shoe covers and gloves, when visiting someone with something way less severe than Ebola. And they would refuse to gown up and would march right into the room anyway.

Most people are morons. There's a reason democracy was ridiculed throughout most of history.

Most people are not morons. The reason for democracy is to counter nutty statements like this.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2014, 12:00:32 PM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

Thanks for illustrating my point about what characterizes our approach to important public issues.  ::)

When it comes to helping the Liberians, most of their problems are self-inflicted. Their population is phenomenally ignorant and can't be persuaded to take the most basic precautions against spreading the disease, which is what makes the attempts to help them so frustrating. I'm not saying charitable Westerners shouldn't continue to try to help, but just don't get your hopes too high and don't sacrifice the interests of your own home country in the process. That includes accepting that you won't be allowed back in your home country if you contract the disease out there. Why should the health of your fellow citizens be put on the line just to make you feel better?

As for the alleged futility of blocking flights only from the countries where it's an epidemic, that's kind of dumb, even for you PtA ;). The point is it will minimize the possibility of the disease spreading here. Of course, for people trying to enter the US indirectly you can always just deny entry to those holding passports from those countries.

This is a serious public health matter and not time to indulge in sentimentalism.
Yes, this is a serious public health matter. No, I'm not indulging in sentimentalism and resent the implication that I am. Like you, I am trying to come to a common sense solution that addresses all issues in a thoughtful manner. I'm just not sure that the medieval concept of a quarantine is the best solution because of its own flaws. We may need to rethink our ideas of how best to isolate Ebola and keep it from causing an epidemic here.

Interesting article, but unfortunately it just confirmed me in my opinions. The only option that stands a good chance of containing the epidemic is quarantine: do what it takes to stop the disease traveling here by stopping anyone who is likely to have had contact with infected people from entering the country. This is much more effective than screening because people can carry the disease before they show symptoms. As far as I could tell from the article, the main drawback is it may make Westerners more reluctant to travel to the affected countries to help. I frankly think that the priority of the US government is to protect US citizens, not Liberians, so Americans who want to help Liberians must do so at their own risk. As for subversion and attempts to get into the country indirectly, I agree that is a risk, but can be addressed by preventing Liberian nationals and other nationals of affected countries from entering the US from whatever origin.

As the Duncan case in Texas showed, leniency does not work.

All this being said, I don't think there's a good chance of this getting out of hand in the US. The disease is not as contagious as flu and kills too quickly. But there's still a chance and the smaller we make that chance, the better.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2014, 12:01:11 PM »
Quarantine seems like a civic duty with something like this.  I was always amazed when I worked in a hospital and family members would become enraged when told they needed to wear protective gear , just a paper gown and mask and little paper shoe covers and gloves, when visiting someone with something way less severe than Ebola. And they would refuse to gown up and would march right into the room anyway.

Most people are morons. There's a reason democracy was ridiculed throughout most of history.

Most people are not morons. The reason for democracy is to counter nutty statements like this.

Well it depends on the country in question.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2014, 12:22:52 PM »
In the wake of the Duncan case, three strategies to contain the entry and spread of Ebola in the United States have been proposed. The first suggests drastic restrictions on travel from Ebola-affected nations. The second involves screening travelers from Ebola-affected areas with a thermometer, which the federal government is beginning to do at selected airports. The third proposes the isolation of all suspected symptomatic patients and monitoring or quarantining everyone who came into contact with them.

Yet all these strategies have crucial flaws. In the absence of any established anti-viral treatment, we may need to rethink the concept of quarantine itself.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/13/opinion/how-to-quarantine-against-ebola.html?_r=0

Some things to think about on the subject of a quarantine

Almost all of the arguments (of which some are faulty) come down to this: "Some people might slip through the cracks of the quarentine."

More people would without quarentine.

Most people are not morons. The reason for democracy is to counter nutty statements like this.

Most people are. Perhaps not most of the people you happen to know.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 12:23:41 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »
Quarantine might seem heartless, but the alternative is more people dying and the disease spreading to more areas.
If we don't permit people to enter the areas most stricken by the disease, then more people will die from lack of treatment. If we don't permit our own citizens to return home for treatment, instead condemning them to die overseas, then fewer will go from us to offer aid, and more people will die from lack of treatment. Besides, closing our borders to flights from West Africa will do nothing to block flights from other countries like Belgium, where a Liberian in the incubation stage of an Ebola infection can transfer flights.

Thanks for illustrating my point about what characterizes our approach to important public issues.  ::)

When it comes to helping the Liberians, most of their problems are self-inflicted. Their population is phenomenally ignorant and can't be persuaded to take the most basic precautions against spreading the disease, which is what makes the attempts to help them so frustrating. I'm not saying charitable Westerners shouldn't continue to try to help, but just don't get your hopes too high and don't sacrifice the interests of your own home country in the process. That includes accepting that you won't be allowed back in your home country if you contract the disease out there. Why should the health of your fellow citizens be put on the line just to make you feel better?

As for the alleged futility of blocking flights only from the countries where it's an epidemic, that's kind of dumb, even for you PtA ;). The point is it will minimize the possibility of the disease spreading here. Of course, for people trying to enter the US indirectly you can always just deny entry to those holding passports from those countries.

This is a serious public health matter and not time to indulge in sentimentalism.
Yes, this is a serious public health matter. No, I'm not indulging in sentimentalism and resent the implication that I am. Like you, I am trying to come to a common sense solution that addresses all issues in a thoughtful manner. I'm just not sure that the medieval concept of a quarantine is the best solution because of its own flaws. We may need to rethink our ideas of how best to isolate Ebola and keep it from causing an epidemic here.

Interesting article, but unfortunately it just confirmed me in my opinions. The only option that stands a good chance of containing the epidemic is quarantine: do what it takes to stop the disease traveling here by stopping anyone who is likely to have had contact with infected people from entering the country. This is much more effective than screening because people can carry the disease before they show symptoms. As far as I could tell from the article, the main drawback is it may make Westerners more reluctant to travel to the affected countries to help. I frankly think that the priority of the US government is to protect US citizens, not Liberians, so Americans who want to help Liberians must do so at their own risk. As for subversion and attempts to get into the country indirectly, I agree that is a risk, but can be addressed by preventing Liberian nationals and other nationals of affected countries from entering the US from whatever origin.

As the Duncan case in Texas showed, leniency does not work.

All this being said, I don't think there's a good chance of this getting out of hand in the US. The disease is not as contagious as flu and kills too quickly. But there's still a chance and the smaller we make that chance, the better.
IMO, the best way to protect US citizens against the spread of Ebola is to fight to eliminate the disease at its source. As such, we need to encourage more of our health care professionals to travel to the affected countries to provide care, not fewer. If closing our borders to everyone from those countries discourages our own health care providers from going there to help by condemning them to die there, and if we end up as a consequence sending only half the health care workers we can send there otherwise, then the disease will spread even more and become even more of a threat to US national security. Sadly, I don't think this is an issue where we can take the isolationist stand of attending only to our own interests.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:32:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2014, 01:33:23 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2014, 01:39:22 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
^ This
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2014, 01:41:28 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable when we have the means to give them much better care here.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:42:14 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2014, 01:42:22 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2014, 01:44:29 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:46:38 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2014, 01:45:20 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:45:31 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2014, 01:46:46 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable when we have the means to give them much better care here.
Can't we impose a generalized quarantine on West Africa, while allowing for exceptions, such as American healthcare workers who contract the disease there? 
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2014, 01:46:52 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2014, 01:47:23 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Of course not, but the government's first responsibility is to its citizens.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2014, 01:47:30 PM »
Just think.

If Ebola were to spread in the USA, the people who promote population control would achieve their desired reduction of the population by at least 33%. More homes would be available for everybody. There would be more food to go around. People would be so grateful to get any kind of food including GMO. They would be happy to be alive and survive. Zombie-ville USA.

Lord have mercy on us and save us.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2014, 01:49:36 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable when we have the means to give them much better care here.
Can't we impose a generalized quarantine on West Africa, while allowing for exceptions, such as American healthcare workers who contract the disease there? 

That would at least be much better than our current policy. I wouldn't object to an organized intervention to stamp out Ebola by our military, if it really is in our national interests (try running that by the UN, though!). Maybe we could treat citizens who contract Ebola offshore in some way.

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2014, 01:52:00 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Of course not, but the government's first responsibility is to its citizens.

Thanks for stating what should be obvious to everyone. It's really funny hearing this from PtA since elsewhere he's expressed conservative views on e.g. wealth redistribution. Quite sensibly he's said that you can't force charity, even though Christ mandates it. Yet here he confuses Christ's mandate to heal the sick with the elementary responsibilities of government, which are to protect the country and its citizens.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:52:25 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2014, 01:52:50 PM »
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?

Do the Americans have the duty to save the world from all evil? Should Captain America always come to the rescue?

Isn't it better to start fixing the problems within your own country before trying to fix the problems of other countries?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 01:54:23 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2014, 01:59:36 PM »
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?

Do the Americans have the duty to save the world from all evil? Should Captain America always come to the rescue?

Isn't it better to start fixing the problems within your own country before trying to fix the problems of other countries?

Not today Ebola! Not today!!!

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2014, 02:02:54 PM »
Are there any Doctors or immunologists online here who could offer us a professional comment? I'm torn between both Peter's and Jonathan's arguments as both make sense.

In the meantime, I came across this article from an Australian news source that is at least factually interesting...It offers no real suggestions though...

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/ebola-what-are-the-chances-of-dying/story-fnh81jut-1227088223017

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2014, 02:06:06 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Of course not, but the government's first responsibility is to its citizens.
And the best way to meet our responsibility to our citizens is to fight this disease where it is and keep it from spreading even more.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:09:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2014, 02:07:36 PM »
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?

Do the Americans have the duty to save the world from all evil? Should Captain America always come to the rescue?

Isn't it better to start fixing the problems within your own country before trying to fix the problems of other countries?
But Ebola is a global health issue that cares nothing for national interests.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2014, 02:13:58 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Of course not, but the government's first responsibility is to its citizens.

Thanks for stating what should be obvious to everyone. It's really funny hearing this from PtA since elsewhere he's expressed conservative views on e.g. wealth redistribution. Quite sensibly he's said that you can't force charity, even though Christ mandates it. Yet here he confuses Christ's mandate to heal the sick with the elementary responsibilities of government, which are to protect the country and its citizens.
No, I'm not confused. The bigger we allow this plague to become, the more of a threat it becomes to US citizens at home regardless of what we do to protect ourselves against it.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:14:20 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2014, 02:20:32 PM »

But Ebola is a global health issue that cares nothing for national interests.

Why import ebola to the west? There's no reason why not to try to quarentine those countries in West Africa altogether.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:21:14 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,519
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2014, 02:23:00 PM »

But Ebola is a global health issue that cares nothing for national interests.

Why import ebola to the west? There's no reason why not to try to quarentine those countries in West Africa altogether.

I think that's his point...quarantining them with no western medical help.....will just allow spread....that spread will sooner or later come to us.

And the notion that there are saintly people that would go help, and be rewarded for their global service with a 'you die too', is distasteful.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: Ebola Could Spread To U.S. By End Of Month
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2014, 02:28:11 PM »
Or maybe we can figure out a way of going to there to fight the disease without also letting sick people back to this country. I agree about the sense in fighting it at the source if possible, but at the very least it must also be contained at the source.
The only problem I see with this is that we're still telling our own citizens, "Now that you've acquired the infection there, we're going to force you to die there." I don't think that acceptable.

But we're protecting the rest of our citizens from infection. I'm confused as to why this ranks so low in importance to you.
Very troubling logic you display here. Just because I grant a higher priority to other concerns, I'm ranking as low in importance the task of protecting our own citizens?

It is troubling that you don't think the protection of US citizens should be the highest priority of our government.
Is it only American citizens for whom Christ died?
Of course not, but the government's first responsibility is to its citizens.
And the best way to meet our responsibility to our citizens is to fight this disease where it is and keep it from spreading even more.
I agree with you. American medical staff and support should be allowed to travel to and from West Africa, though such travel should be carefully regulated. However, I do not understand why anyone else should be allowed to engage in such travel.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.