Author Topic: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?  (Read 13622 times)

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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2014, 06:14:40 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2014, 06:15:34 PM »
Cyril was a bishop when he did the killing, unlike Paul. 

St. Cyril didn't do the killing.

You should also walk by Jewish people and chase them away with swords.  It's Cyril's example.   Of course, this is brutal, but many make excuses for this behavior.

If they try to stone you and are killing your friends, sure, why not?

It doesn't matter.  If you are a leader and you order somebody to kill another, and have the power to stop the murder or push it through - the blood is on your hands.

When EO Saint Constantine murdered his own wife and child (I shudder), he could have stopped it.  Period.   Cyril didn't have to attack the Jews and could have stopped that.  Period.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2014, 06:15:54 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?

Is he considered a saint?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2014, 06:16:42 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?

He can certainly live with King Solomon, youknowwhatimsayin?
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2014, 06:16:59 PM »
Who does qualify as a saint in your eyes, Yesh? It must be a small list.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2014, 06:17:12 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?

Is he considered a saint?

Uh, yes.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2014, 06:17:33 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2014, 06:18:10 PM »
It doesn't matter.  If you are a leader and you order somebody to kill another, and have the power to stop the murder or push it through - the blood is on your hands.

Good thing that St. Cyril didn't order or condone the murder. Not even Socrates Scholasticus, who had a reason to hate St. Cyril, accuses him of that

Cyril didn't have to attack the Jews and could have stopped that.  Period.

The Jews were murdering innocent Christians in a horrible manner. Repeat after me: the Jews were murdering innocent Christians in a horrible manner.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2014, 06:18:34 PM »
Hey Yesh, Moses and Joshua are saints, and Yahweh told them to go kill women and children.  Does that mean Yahweh shouldn't be worshipped?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:18:48 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2014, 06:19:03 PM »
Cyril was a bishop when he did the killing, unlike Paul.   Cyril knew the faith and believed in the faith as he slaughtered others.

St. Cyril did not kill anyone. Quit your slander based on biased sources and the reading you would like to be true, for whatever wicked reason.

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Sure, saint's are not perfect, but they should be our examples.

And they are. What about St. Moses the Ethiopian, who by all accounts did kill and rob in his life? Is he not fit to be a saint because of these things? What about St. Mary of Egypt, a fornicator? What about any number of other examples? You cannot pick events out of saint's lives in isolation so as to prove this or that about them, and you certainly cannot pick events that are not proven to have happened (e.g., St. Cyril's supposed "murders") to tar them just because some idiot who is not even part of the Church wrote a book based on selective later sources that claim this or that.

Quote
Think of it this way:
Perhaps the Roman Catholics should light your "heretic" bishops on fire today and start attacking Orthodox Christians.  Why not your priest?  He should kill some Roman Catholics.... OR They should kill him.   You should also walk by Jewish people and chase them away with swords.  It's Cyril's example.   Of course, this is brutal, but many make excuses for this behavior.

This is the dumbest thing ever. Who is excusing let alone advocating such things? You have descended to hysterics with this level of hypothetical example in an attempt to make Orthodox Christianity out to be a religion of Machiavellis in robes or something. Why are you doing this? It's bizarre. You've gotten plenty of answers to your question, but for some reason you have to push this anti-Christian, ahistorical narrative that is frankly more suited for Hollywood movies than serious consideration, and again for what? Is it your view that Nestorius did not deserve exile and condemnation despite his unrepentant heresy? If so, I wish you'd come out and just admit that, instead of slandering without cause one of the greatest saints of any age and a revered pillar of the Orthodox faith based on what you have read in some book. Put the book down and learn from those who uphold the faith, not from those who teach the modern historical-critical viewpoint as church history.

Quote
Can I live with a Saint that sinned - lied, cheated, or has done wrong?  Certainly, we all sin.
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

Do you believe that hatred is really the only reason that Nestorius was exiled? Seriously? If so, no one here should have any reason to continue to entertain your views. Sheesh.

Quote
Compare Cyril with St. Tikhon of Zadonsk.   COMPLETELY different lives.
 

Compare St. Cyril with St. Jacob of Serug...completely different lives! Compare Charles Darwin to Merv Griffin...completely different lives! Compare Coca-Cola to Holy Water...

And when you're done, rethink your life.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:24:23 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2014, 06:19:38 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?

He can certainly live with King Solomon, youknowwhatimsayin?

What, shrines an' all?
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2014, 06:20:20 PM »
Yesh.

Here we are again with your latest 'let me search and find ways to clear my concience about leaving Orthodoxy' argument.

Honestly.  Do or do not. Make a choice and proceed with it.

Take ownership of that choice rather than continually trying to foist it off as 'things the Church did that make it ok for me to have left it'




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Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2014, 06:22:25 PM »
Countdown until Master/Despota, icons, and the diskos are brought up for the millionth time.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2014, 06:23:07 PM »
He used primary sources when it comes to case of St. Cyrill?

There aren't any primary sources about the Hypatia episode. Gibbon picked the later sources that suited him best. That was a bit dishonest, sure.



That was my point. (I meant specificaly St. Cyril case). Well, depends how do you define primary source... Socrates was first who gave us account, and wrote shortly after murder. If you define primary source as direct testimony, or documental proof... I agree there are no primary sources. But terms are relative.

Anyway, Gibbon's methodology and knowledge of Greek are questionable. Altough considered to be revolutionary in historiography, he is considered to be quite far from good when it comes to this field of history... which invalidate yesh's insistence on invoking Gibbon...

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2014, 06:24:16 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2014, 06:24:31 PM »
This thread is painful to read, let alone make any sense of.

St Cyril pray for us.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2014, 06:24:45 PM »
Killing is not a sin.  The commandment is not to murder, which is pre-planned killing of another person, which St. Cyril did.

When is killing not a sin?
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Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 06:25:50 PM »
Countdown until Master/Despota, icons, and the diskos are brought up for the millionth time.

And he's going to ruin Christmas. You betcha.  :-[
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2014, 06:25:57 PM »
Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

Unlike you, I read the primary sources and don't copypaste from a quote list.

The Jews were killing Christians in a horrible manner. They shouldn't cry about being kicked out of the city for that.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:26:54 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2014, 06:26:29 PM »
He used primary sources when it comes to case of St. Cyrill?

There aren't any primary sources about the Hypatia episode. Gibbon picked the later sources that suited him best. That was a bit dishonest, sure.



That was my point. (I meant specificaly St. Cyril case). Well, depends how do you define primary source... Socrates was first who gave us account, and wrote shortly after murder. If you define primary source as direct testimony, or documental proof... I agree there are no primary sources. But terms are relative.

Anyway, Gibbon's methodology and knowledge of Greek are questionable. Altough considered to be revolutionary in historiography, he is considered to be quite far from good when it comes to this field of history... which invalidate yesh's insistence on invoking Gibbon...


I cited an EO source above stating that he sought the expulsion of the Jews.  They did not elaborate (of course).

Other historians cite the violent way they were run out.

Unless you want to believe they just knocked on their door and asked them nicely to leave and all the Jews just up and left.... Plus gave them all their possessions.    ::)
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Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2014, 06:26:56 PM »
This thread is painful to read, let alone make any sense of.

St Cyril pray for us.

Facts, shmacts. Yesh doesn't care, he's proven that in many threads.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2014, 06:27:05 PM »
Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

Unlike you, I read the primary sources and don't copypaste from a quote list.

I just posted the OCA as a source.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2014, 06:27:18 PM »
Can I live with a Saint who killed others, power mongered, and exiled those he hated?  No.

What of King David? Can you live with him?

Is he considered a saint?

Do you not?
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2014, 06:27:43 PM »
He used primary sources when it comes to case of St. Cyrill?

There aren't any primary sources about the Hypatia episode. Gibbon picked the later sources that suited him best. That was a bit dishonest, sure.



That was my point. (I meant specificaly St. Cyril case). Well, depends how do you define primary source... Socrates was first who gave us account, and wrote shortly after murder. If you define primary source as direct testimony, or documental proof... I agree there are no primary sources. But terms are relative.

Anyway, Gibbon's methodology and knowledge of Greek are questionable. Altough considered to be revolutionary in historiography, he is considered to be quite far from good when it comes to this field of history... which invalidate yesh's insistence on invoking Gibbon...


I cited an EO source above stating that he sought the expulsion of the Jews.  They did not elaborate (of course).

Other historians cite the violent way they were run out.

Unless you want to believe they just knocked on their door and asked them nicely to leave and all the Jews just up and left.... Plus gave them all their possessions.    ::)

This is the third and last time I say it:

The Jews were killing Christians in a horrible manner. They shouldn't cry about being kicked out of the city for that.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:27:54 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2014, 06:29:03 PM »
This thread is painful to read, let alone make any sense of.

St Cyril pray for us.

Facts, shmacts. Yesh doesn't care, he's proven that in many threads.

So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men and just accept it because the bishops who have succession from those who threw away their scriptures to be burned to save their own rear ends is correct and unspoiled.

I think it's backwards.

I have fact shmacts.  You just don't care.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2014, 06:30:10 PM »
Yesh.

Here we are again with your latest 'let me search and find ways to clear my concience about leaving Orthodoxy' argument.

Honestly.  Do or do not. Make a choice and proceed with it.

Take ownership of that choice rather than continually trying to foist it off as 'things the Church did that make it ok for me to have left it'





It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2014, 06:30:15 PM »
So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men

St. Cyril DID NOT murder anyone.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2014, 06:31:09 PM »
He used primary sources when it comes to case of St. Cyrill?

There aren't any primary sources about the Hypatia episode. Gibbon picked the later sources that suited him best. That was a bit dishonest, sure.



That was my point. (I meant specificaly St. Cyril case). Well, depends how do you define primary source... Socrates was first who gave us account, and wrote shortly after murder. If you define primary source as direct testimony, or documental proof... I agree there are no primary sources. But terms are relative.

Anyway, Gibbon's methodology and knowledge of Greek are questionable. Altough considered to be revolutionary in historiography, he is considered to be quite far from good when it comes to this field of history... which invalidate yesh's insistence on invoking Gibbon...


I cited an EO source above stating that he sought the expulsion of the Jews.  They did not elaborate (of course).

Other historians cite the violent way they were run out.

Unless you want to believe they just knocked on their door and asked them nicely to leave and all the Jews just up and left.... Plus gave them all their possessions.    ::)

This is the third and last time I say it:

The Jews were killing Christians in a horrible manner. They shouldn't cry about being kicked out of the city for that.

I say it again - "Love your enemies".  It's what Jesus taught us.

Paul didn't kill his enemies after conversion.
None of the apostles killed their enemies.

Turn the cheek = chase with sword.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2014, 06:31:50 PM »
What do you think of the Amish shunning? That's driving someone into exile.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2014, 06:32:40 PM »
I say it again - "Love your enemies".  It's what Jesus taught us.

Paul didn't kill his enemies after conversion.
None of the apostles killed their enemies.

Turn the cheek = chase with sword.

The Jews were lynching Christians and were exiled by the secular authorities. That's not what I'd call a persecution of the Jews. They got what was coming to them. Are you seriously saying that the Christians should have let the Jews kill them or are you trolling?

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:33:16 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2014, 06:33:06 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2014, 06:33:36 PM »
So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men

St. Cyril DID NOT murder anyone.

St. Cyril sought to boot all the Jews out where they were attacked, murdered, and all their possessions taken.  He was a powerful man, like Constantine who murdered others.  The blood is on their hands.
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Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2014, 06:34:05 PM »
This thread is painful to read, let alone make any sense of.

St Cyril pray for us.

Facts, shmacts. Yesh doesn't care, he's proven that in many threads.

So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men and just accept it because the bishops who have succession from those who threw away their scriptures to be burned to save their own rear ends is correct and unspoiled.

I think it's backwards.

I have fact shmacts.  You just don't care.

I believe in Confession, which is in the Scriptures, and in the power of God to forgive.

You do not.

I've got to say, that makes your Anabaptists sound like a pretty horrible church - if they have abandoned belief that God can forgive any sin, then what good are they?

Why is there only one sin that God should not forgive? Who says there is?

Why are you putting words in God's mouth?

 ???
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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2014, 06:38:22 PM »
So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men

St. Cyril DID NOT murder anyone.

St. Cyril sought to boot all the Jews out where they were attacked, murdered, and all their possessions taken.  He was a powerful man, like Constantine who murdered others.  The blood is on their hands.

I'll quote Socrates Scholasticus, an enemy of St. Cyril, to you:

Quote
Cyril, on being informed of this, sent for the principal Jews, and threatened them with the utmost severities unless they desisted from their molestation of the Christians. The Jewish populace on hearing these menaces, instead of suppressing their violence, only became more furious, and were led to form conspiracies for the destruction of the Christians; one of these was of so desperate a character as to cause their entire expulsion from Alexandria; this I shall now describe. Having agreed that each one of them should wear a ring on his finger made of the bark of a palm branch, for the sake of mutual recognition, they determined to make a nightly attack on the Christians. They therefore sent persons into the streets to raise an outcry that the church named after Alexander was on fire. Thus many Christians on hearing this ran out, some from one direction and some from another, in great anxiety to save their church. The Jews immediately fell upon and slew them; readily distinguishing each other by their rings. At daybreak the authors of this atrocity could not be concealed: and Cyril, accompanied by an immense crowd of people, going to their synagogues— for so they call their house of prayer— took them away from them, and drove the Jews out of the city, permitting the multitude to plunder their goods.

Socrates Scholasticus never mentioned the murder of even one Jew; since, of course, that never occured.

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2014, 06:38:27 PM »
Here's the stories by Socrates Scholasticus:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26017.htm

If we examine them, you find that he was not very fond of St. Cyril, but he also had a few choice anger moments on the Jewish community.  He talked about the murder of Hypatia as a shame to the Alexandrian Christian community, but the tone for the Jewish community seemed to be a way of saying "they asked for it."

Now, I can't say for sure whether the expelling was the right thing to do.  But clearly, we have a very different world, and I can't judge today's standards based on the standards of the fifth century.

That's why I am trying to see why you don't give the same standards to Moses and Joshua, Yesh.  Rather than being so anti-Orthodox, why can't you be more fair in your assessment of historical culture and analysis?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2014, 06:39:00 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

This is probably one of the most honest statements I've heard yet. I agree, it is mostly EO and RC who do write about him.    It's how the reader understands what they are writing.  Being formerly EO, I know that people will turn a blind eye to the horrors in love of the church.  It's something I can't do.

When a powerful man as St. Cyril was, had involvement in the expulsion of the Jews (and Novatians), the blood is on his hands.   Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.
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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2014, 06:39:32 PM »
So what you are advocating is that I believe in men as saints who murdered other men

St. Cyril DID NOT murder anyone.

St. Cyril sought to boot all the Jews out where they were attacked, murdered, and all their possessions taken.  He was a powerful man, like Constantine who murdered others.  The blood is on their hands.

Why dont you purge St. prophet Elijah from Bible? He took sword and killed 450 certain gentlemen...

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2014, 06:41:08 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

This is probably one of the most honest statements I've heard yet. I agree, it is mostly EO and RC who do write about him.    It's how the reader understands what they are writing.  Being formerly EO, I know that people will turn a blind eye to the horrors in love of the church.  It's something I can't do.

When a powerful man as St. Cyril was, had involvement in the expulsion of the Jews (and Novatians), the blood is on his hands.   Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.

Socrates Scholasticus was a Novatian, and he did not blame Cyril for Hypatia or the Jewish expulsion.
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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2014, 06:41:19 PM »
Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.

That was not going to happen, since the pagan governor of the time supported the Jews and had an innocent Christian, named Hierax, whipped on the behest of the Jews. What St. Cyril did saved the Christian community of Alexandria.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 06:42:44 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2014, 06:43:50 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

This is probably one of the most honest statements I've heard yet. I agree, it is mostly EO and RC who do write about him.    It's how the reader understands what they are writing.  Being formerly EO, I know that people will turn a blind eye to the horrors in love of the church.  It's something I can't do.

When a powerful man as St. Cyril was, had involvement in the expulsion of the Jews (and Novatians), the blood is on his hands.   Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.

Socrates Scholasticus was a Novatian, and he did not blame Cyril for Hypatia or the Jewish expulsion.

I should qualify this.  He did not blame Cyril for Hypatia and did not see the expulsion of Jews as an improper thing, which means, for a Novatian, they were "that bad."
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2014, 06:44:06 PM »
Here's the stories by Socrates Scholasticus:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26017.htm

If we examine them, you find that he was not very fond of St. Cyril, but he also had a few choice anger moments on the Jewish community.  He talked about the murder of Hypatia as a shame to the Alexandrian Christian community, but the tone for the Jewish community seemed to be a way of saying "they asked for it."

Now, I can't say for sure whether the expelling was the right thing to do.  But clearly, we have a very different world, and I can't judge today's standards based on the standards of the fifth century.

That's why I am trying to see why you don't give the same standards to Moses and Joshua, Yesh.  Rather than being so anti-Orthodox, why can't you be more fair in your assessment of historical culture and analysis?

It's not an issue of Orthodoxy really here.  There are plenty of saints that I love in the EO church.  Some of them basically make me say  :o

A Christian saint should partially be our example, and these are not people I believe the EO church would want representing them.   It's not really anti-Orthodoxy, I just don't understand why he is a saint?


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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2014, 06:45:24 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

This is probably one of the most honest statements I've heard yet. I agree, it is mostly EO and RC who do write about him.    It's how the reader understands what they are writing.  Being formerly EO, I know that people will turn a blind eye to the horrors in love of the church.  It's something I can't do.

When a powerful man as St. Cyril was, had involvement in the expulsion of the Jews (and Novatians), the blood is on his hands.   Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.

Socrates Scholasticus was a Novatian, and he did not blame Cyril for Hypatia or the Jewish expulsion.

But OCA source said he sought for their expulsion.  ???
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Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2014, 06:45:51 PM »
We've told you many times. I'll do it again, just in case:

You can't prove he murdered anyone.

Also, God forgives sinners.

My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2014, 06:46:51 PM »
But OCA source said he sought for their expulsion.  ???

And he was right to do so, since the Jews were murdering Christians with the pagan governor smiling from the sideline.

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2014, 06:48:33 PM »
Read about him.   I've posted sources.  It's actually kind of common stuff.  You can find out about him on many EO and RC web sites that post his history.  Some of it is sugar coated, some not.  Google around, or visit a library.  Google also has many online books which are nice.

No source from that time period mentions him killing anyone or ordering the murder of anyone. Why do you feel the need to slander an innocent man?

It's all how you look at it:

In the kiss up way where it admits he sought the Jews expulsion: http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/06/09/101595-st-cyril-the-archbishop-of-alexandria

Read about him. Study him.  Look at historian's studies, not just the way he's presented to you.  Heck the EO church right about admits he sought the expulsion of the Jews!   Trust me, they were treating him kindly in words.

It may be surprise for you, many of us do read what historians say about him. In fact, most historians who write about him are Orthodox and Roman Catholic... quite naturaly, since kinda, its field of History which mostly concern that two groups. Some go quite far in criticizing him, yet nobody doubt his qualities overweigh his sins. And modern historians do not hold him responsable for death of Hypathia.... usually, its aaid in clash between perfect and archbishop some zealous Christians lost control and commited murder... when it comes to Jews... they could avoid being murdered by simply not murdering first.... and yet... there is question how far St. Cyril was invonvef... you think he took axe and went killing Jews?

This is probably one of the most honest statements I've heard yet. I agree, it is mostly EO and RC who do write about him.    It's how the reader understands what they are writing.  Being formerly EO, I know that people will turn a blind eye to the horrors in love of the church.  It's something I can't do.

When a powerful man as St. Cyril was, had involvement in the expulsion of the Jews (and Novatians), the blood is on his hands.   Cyril was rich and powerful and could have easily influenced others attacked by Jews for a peaceful Christian resolve.

Guilt by assotiation is not valid category... either he did go and kill Hypathia and some Jews or he did not...  You ought to be honest in your judgement... not picking Toland and Gibbon... they are not impartial, nor considered to be relevant in description of events here...


PS, Minasoliman, I am tamking by memory, but I think, Socrates was Orthodox. He is considered to be of Novatian ancestry, which explain why he describe them in positive lights. Nevertheless, I agree on your point... Socrat's description is considered to be honest and objective.