Author Topic: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?  (Read 12747 times)

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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #135 on: August 29, 2014, 06:50:24 AM »
Hollywood as a teacher of history, sigh! Whether we are discussing ancient or modern history a litany of errors tends to characterise their films, whether it is Braveheart or the recovery of codes and a coding device from a German U-boat by US Navy personnel. As for recent Russian history - this has been distorted by Hollywood, the Soviets and their 'useful fools'.

Still if you want to buy into it, fine, just don't try and teach the rest of us distortions of history.


Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #136 on: August 29, 2014, 09:14:13 AM »
In making my last contribution on this thread I had become very distressed at a marked tendency for today's contributors to judge and find wanting even Saints, and even Scripture being used to that end.

Yes, I may have questions or simply not understand events and the milieu of times past. But to accuse and find wanting such Saints, measuring them in the frankest terms against the teaching of Scripture distresses me most. In the Gospel of Saint Matthew, 7 1-3, are we not enjoined not to Judge others. Hence my reluctance to criticise such followers of Christ, already acclaimed by the Church.

May we find them wanting, having taken upon ourselves the role of prosecutor of Saints citing Scripture while ignoring the very Scriptural injunction not to do that?

I hope not to offend but simply to express something deeply held.


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #137 on: August 29, 2014, 09:16:47 AM »
In making my last contribution on this thread I had become very distressed at a marked tendency for today's contributors to judge and find wanting even Saints, and even Scripture being used to that end.

Yes, I may have questions or simply not understand events and the milieu of times past. But to accuse and find wanting such Saints, measuring them in the frankest terms against the teaching of Scripture distresses me most. In the Gospel of Saint Matthew, 7 1-3, are we not enjoined not to Judge others. Hence my reluctance to criticise such followers of Christ, already acclaimed by the Church.

May we find them wanting, having taken upon ourselves the role of prosecutor of Saints citing Scripture while ignoring the very Scriptural injunction not to do that?

I hope not to offend but simply to express something deeply held.


+1

I'm on board with this. It is hard enough for me to decipher my own thoughts and actions, it is way harder to decipher the thoughts and actions of someone who lived 1600 years ago that we have very little info on.
God bless!

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #138 on: August 29, 2014, 09:19:03 AM »
In making my last contribution on this thread I had become very distressed at a marked tendency for today's contributors to judge and find wanting even Saints, and even Scripture being used to that end.

Yes, I may have questions or simply not understand events and the milieu of times past. But to accuse and find wanting such Saints, measuring them in the frankest terms against the teaching of Scripture distresses me most. In the Gospel of Saint Matthew, 7 1-3, are we not enjoined not to Judge others. Hence my reluctance to criticise such followers of Christ, already acclaimed by the Church.

May we find them wanting, having taken upon ourselves the role of prosecutor of Saints citing Scripture while ignoring the very Scriptural injunction not to do that?

I hope not to offend but simply to express something deeply held.


+1

I'm on board with this. It is hard enough for me to decipher my own thoughts and actions, it is way harder to decipher the thoughts and actions of someone who lived 1600 years ago that we have very little info on.
Its easy to do when you're your own pope.

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Offline Indocern

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #139 on: August 29, 2014, 11:01:05 AM »
St. prophet and king David committed a murder too and he is a prophet and saint.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:03:04 AM by Indocern »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #140 on: August 29, 2014, 12:33:01 PM »
In making my last contribution on this thread I had become very distressed at a marked tendency for today's contributors to judge and find wanting even Saints, and even Scripture being used to that end.

Yes, I may have questions or simply not understand events and the milieu of times past. But to accuse and find wanting such Saints, measuring them in the frankest terms against the teaching of Scripture distresses me most. In the Gospel of Saint Matthew, 7 1-3, are we not enjoined not to Judge others. Hence my reluctance to criticise such followers of Christ, already acclaimed by the Church.

May we find them wanting, having taken upon ourselves the role of prosecutor of Saints citing Scripture while ignoring the very Scriptural injunction not to do that?

I hope not to offend but simply to express something deeply held.


+1

I'm on board with this. It is hard enough for me to decipher my own thoughts and actions, it is way harder to decipher the thoughts and actions of someone who lived 1600 years ago that we have very little info on.

Precisely my thoughts on this as well.  What is perceived earlier as "a stumbling block to odox" is not excusing murder, but excusing our own limitations to judge the past based on today's standards.

I also wanted to add an afterthought for those who define "Odox" as "not murdering":

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5 NKJV)

Can we say anyone of us is not guilty of murder (whether physically or of the heart)?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #141 on: August 29, 2014, 01:17:08 PM »
I love and embrace St. Cyril's Christology, but I abhor his exemplified interpretation of what it means to follow Christ.


Selam

A fine answer. Perhaps being receptive to reasonable albeit at times poorly formed criticisms of YiM, he might find himself in better communion here.

I think odox preach Christ crucified, not Cyril sanctified. Let the latter be argued within, not without.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #142 on: August 29, 2014, 02:52:29 PM »
St. prophet and king David committed a murder too and he is a prophet and saint.

Quote
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight; that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways, and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #143 on: August 29, 2014, 03:37:49 PM »
I love and embrace St. Cyril's Christology, but I abhor his exemplified interpretation of what it means to follow Christ.


Selam

A fine answer. Perhaps being receptive to reasonable albeit at times poorly formed criticisms of YiM, he might find himself in better communion here.

I think odox preach Christ crucified, not Cyril sanctified. Let the latter be argued within, not without.

I have to admit.  You make a good point.

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #144 on: August 29, 2014, 05:11:52 PM »
No, it's not a good point.

Saints are reflections of Christ. Cyril was sanctified because Christ was crucified. We honor our saints because they are what God has made, and they show the glory of God. They are a foretaste of what God has in store for us. They prove the greatness of God, because they show how much he can forgive us.

No one has proven that Cyril killed anyone.

Even if he did, God could forgive him.

Wherein, then, is the problem?

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #145 on: August 29, 2014, 05:26:35 PM »
One time I heard a sermon, an often repeated story, either from the desert fathers or paradise of the desert fathers, or wherever this came from.

It's about a monk who lived his whole life carelessly.  He didn't fast, he didn't do all his prayers, he didn't obey his work in the cenobitic community.  So the monks really forgot about him and just let him be.  In the end, he eventually died, and the monks were somewhat sad as they judged him as a bad state of character.  But in a vision, they were surprised to see him resting in the bosoms of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  So why was he judged worthy of paradise?  God revealed to the monks that this man lived his whole life without judging a soul.  He perfected this one virtue, even though he was lousy in all other virtues.

The point that I'm reading from Orthonorm and Gebre is that even if St. Cyril did some mistakes, it's not those mistakes we condone.  He may be somewhat of an aggressive personality.  I can sit here and justify all his actions, and I don't disagree much with what Cyrillic posted, but in the end, where there's a question from a non-Orthodox on him, perhaps, a straight-forward answer of reassurance of what the gospel entails, and why really, we venerate people like St. Cyril or St. Constantine.  Because it is frankly one particular virtue we remember each person by.  For the latter, it was ending Christian persecution and establishing an edict that allowed a form of religious freedom that has was not intertwined with imperial loyalties.  For St. Cyril, it was writing some of the greatest theological works ever in the history of Christianity.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:27:37 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #146 on: August 29, 2014, 05:29:40 PM »
No, it's not a good point.

Saints are reflections of Christ. Cyril was sanctified because Christ was crucified. We honor our saints because they are what God has made, and they show the glory of God. They are a foretaste of what God has in store for us. They prove the greatness of God, because they show how much he can forgive us.

No one has proven that Cyril killed anyone.

Even if he did, God could forgive him.

Wherein, then, is the problem?



Are you bringing YiM closer to Christ? Someone once wrote becoming all things to all people. Another about what is good and what builds up.

Another about proper order.

You might read about this stuff somewhere outside these forums.

YiM is a human being. Why not take the reproach you can carry and demonstrate the love of Christ that you can?

Do you think getting into what amounts to HS English Comp debates about locutions changes a person's heart?

All creation reflects Christ. Including YiM. Who needs your care more right now? St. Cyril or YiM? He who the Church has found worthy of sanctification or he who struggles constantly at the Church's threshold?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:30:36 PM by orthonorm »
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #147 on: August 29, 2014, 05:31:14 PM »
No, it's not a good point.

Saints are reflections of Christ. Cyril was sanctified because Christ was crucified. We honor our saints because they are what God has made, and they show the glory of God. They are a foretaste of what God has in store for us. They prove the greatness of God, because they show how much he can forgive us.

No one has proven that Cyril killed anyone.

Even if he did, God could forgive him.

Wherein, then, is the problem?



Are you bringing YiM closer to Christ? Someone once wrote becoming all things to all people. Another about what is good and what builds up.

Another about proper order.

You might read about this stuff somewhere outside these forums.

YiM is a human being. Why not take the reproach you can carry and demonstrate the love of Christ that you can?

Do you think getting into what amounts to HS English Comp debates about locutions changes a person's heart?

All creation reflects Christ. Including YiM. Who needs your care more right now? St. Cyril or YiM? He who the Church has found worthy of sanctification or he who struggles constantly at the Church's threshold?

HARD TRUTH. BLAH BLAH.

No one else needs to make the above futile argument now.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #148 on: August 29, 2014, 05:49:50 PM »
Who needs your care more right now? St. Cyril or YiM? He who the Church has found worthy of sanctification or he who struggles constantly at the Church's threshold?

Is YiM struggling constantly at the Church's threshold?  In some ways, yes, I would agree.  But in other ways, he seems more interested in urinating at the Church's threshold and, with proper aim, right through the front door.  That happens as much when people, caring for him, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work with him through his questions as it does when people give up and express frustration.  And YiM is not the only one who enjoys spraying about from time to time. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #149 on: August 29, 2014, 05:58:44 PM »
That happens as much when people, caring for him, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work with him through his questions
You're not talking about us, are you?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #150 on: August 29, 2014, 06:00:30 PM »
That happens as much when people, caring for him, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work with him through his questions
You're not talking about us, are you?


Certainly about some of us, whether or not you and I are included in that. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #151 on: August 29, 2014, 06:06:33 PM »
It says in Scripture that when a person is in error, we are to correct them three times, then have nothing more to do with them.

We have given Yesh way more than three times.

Again, what is wrong with pointing to the lives of the saints as examples of the power of God to forgive sin? What is wrong with saying that God's Church, because of His gift of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and the spiritual descendants of same, has the power to forgive sins? "What you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. What you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven."

Or is Yesh suddenly no longer the only one who doesn't believe in the efficacy of the sacrament of Confession?

Who proved St. Cyril killed anyone?

Even if he did, if he repented and confessed, that sin would be gone, it would matter no more, as if it had never happened in the first place. That is what Yesh is ignoring and that is why he needs to be corrected.

You still can't answer my questions, norm.

Yesh doesn't "need love." I do not have to play nice with everybody under the sun. Jesus didn't play nice with the moneychangers in the Temple.

So let's just keep letting Yesh play with matches in front of a nice big bucket of gasoline. It doesn't matter. The saints don't matter. The sacraments don't matter. Calling someone a murderer, without the proof of same, doesn't matter.

Let's all take a deep breath and remind ourselves that the most important thing is that not everybody says things the way orthonorm says them on an Internet forum.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #152 on: August 29, 2014, 07:40:23 PM »
Biro, you are barking up the wrong tree.

The identification of "saint" with "moral saint" is the problem that started this thread. Saints are not necessarily "moral saints," but you have to admit that, even among Orthodox, this is often the impression.

If you spare a little patience, you'll realize that Orthonorm is saying that the justice of people called saints (what YiM would mean by 'sanctity') is not the Gospel. The justification given by Christ is the Gospel, and his person and teaching are the ultimate standard, not another man's, however right or wrong.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:41:31 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #153 on: August 29, 2014, 07:47:58 PM »
Biro, you are barking up the wrong tree.

The identification of "saint" with "moral saint" is the problem that started this thread. Saints are not necessarily "moral saints," but you have to admit that, even among Orthodox, this is often the impression.

If spare a little patience, you'll realize that Orthonorm is saying that the justice of people called saints (what YiM would mean by 'sanctity') is not the Gospel. The justification given by Christ is the Gospel, and his person and teaching are the ultimate standard, not another man's, however right or wrong.

I don't think so.

I'm pretty damn tired of Yesh's ridiculous threads and norm's whiny insistence that we have to treat Yesh with kid gloves, no matter how much garbage he spews. And I'm pretty damn tired of being told how to say things.

Yesh is babbling a bunch of crap about St. Cyril, calling the man a killer, with no proof.

In the U.S., if you make a false accusation that a person killed someone, you can go to jail.

Apparently the saints of the church are not important anymore. Bearing false witness is okay now.

I have had it up to here with this crap.

Edited for profanity
--Mina

 Biro,

You know better than to use profanity in the Religious Topics section.  I'm issuing a warning for 14 days.  If you like to appeal this decision, do so through PM only, and to me.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:51:35 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #154 on: August 29, 2014, 07:56:15 PM »
Well, besides complaining of Yesh, I do recognize a good point in my own personal view when I see one, even when it's from an equally contentious member of the forum, like Orthonorm.  If his posts were as charitable and not winy or nagging, he wouldn't accumulate so much animosity here either.  So it goes without saying that those who preach about acting in consonance with the gospel should do the same here as well.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2014, 10:38:05 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
 As I mentioned to you privately, I deleted one of your posts due to libel, even if done in a sarcastic manner, it is still of a serious nature.  There are some things you just do not joke about, especially with the sensitive issues of today.  Calling someone an ISIS supporter is one of them.  You are warned for 30 days.  If you feel the need to appeal this warning, you may go ahead and do so by PM only.

God bless.

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It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
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Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2014, 11:34:48 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
assuming this is an honest inquiry, and not a question a wise guy would ask, no...not at all!  Even if Muslim or atheist of Buddhist or Hindu, there is no excuse for genocide.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:35:04 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2014, 11:36:01 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
assuming this is an honest inquiry, and not a question a wise guy would ask, no...not at all!  Even if Muslim or atheist of Buddhist or Hindu, there is no excuse for genocide.

Don't assume.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #158 on: August 29, 2014, 11:37:31 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
assuming this is an honest inquiry, and not a question a wise guy would ask, no...not at all!  Even if Muslim or atheist of Buddhist or Hindu, there is no excuse for genocide.

This.

Because if them, why not you and yours next.

Please note this is a personal philosphy
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #159 on: August 29, 2014, 11:40:02 PM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
assuming this is an honest inquiry, and not a question a wise guy would ask, no...not at all!  Even if Muslim or atheist of Buddhist or Hindu, there is no excuse for genocide.

Don't assume.

For all I know augustin717 "is a human being. Why not take the reproach I can carry and demonstrate the love of Christ that I can?"
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #160 on: August 30, 2014, 03:07:26 AM »
Who needs your care more right now? St. Cyril or YiM? He who the Church has found worthy of sanctification or he who struggles constantly at the Church's threshold?

Is YiM struggling constantly at the Church's threshold?  In some ways, yes, I would agree.  But in other ways, he seems more interested in urinating at the Church's threshold and, with proper aim, right through the front door.  That happens as much when people, caring for him, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work with him through his questions as it does when people give up and express frustration.  And YiM is not the only one who enjoys spraying about from time to time. 

If he and others urinate, then celebrate all the more! For you have even a greater chance to witness to the love of Christ. This would seem clear to someone who openly supports other Christians, by use of a forum avatar nonetheless, who besides being metaphorically urinated upon suffer much worse.

And who is worse? The one outside the Church urinating on the outside of the Church or those urinating within and without. If God has promised the none shall prevail against its gates, why treat with such derision any who would suppose to question, criticize, or mock it?

Their futility will again only demonstrate God's promise.

Celebrate.

January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #161 on: August 30, 2014, 03:13:32 AM »
It says in Scripture that when a person is in error, we are to correct them three times, then have nothing more to do with them.

We have given Yesh way more than three times.

Again, what is wrong with pointing to the lives of the saints as examples of the power of God to forgive sin? What is wrong with saying that God's Church, because of His gift of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and the spiritual descendants of same, has the power to forgive sins? "What you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. What you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven."

Or is Yesh suddenly no longer the only one who doesn't believe in the efficacy of the sacrament of Confession?

Who proved St. Cyril killed anyone?

Even if he did, if he repented and confessed, that sin would be gone, it would matter no more, as if it had never happened in the first place. That is what Yesh is ignoring and that is why he needs to be corrected.

You still can't answer my questions, norm.

Yesh doesn't "need love." I do not have to play nice with everybody under the sun. Jesus didn't play nice with the moneychangers in the Temple.

So let's just keep letting Yesh play with matches in front of a nice big bucket of gasoline. It doesn't matter. The saints don't matter. The sacraments don't matter. Calling someone a murderer, without the proof of same, doesn't matter.

Let's all take a deep breath and remind ourselves that the most important thing is that not everybody says things the way orthonorm says them on an Internet forum.

Kid gloves? Why do so many metaphors around here about treating people with kindness end up invoking a child with some sort of derision. Aren't we supposed to suffer the children? Who isn't a would be child of God?

Be careful, for want of kid gloves, one might find oneself with a millstone instead.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #162 on: August 30, 2014, 03:16:44 AM »
In those days, if an ISIS-like group were killing people, no one waited for the world community to sympathize and call for arms.  Alexandria and the 5th Century is a different world than the 21st century.  To even place judgments on St. Cyril is to presume you actually know what the community was like and how you might have handled it differently.  But the fact is Yesh, you don't.
Hey Isis is killing lots of Nestorians. Shouldn't you all support that?
assuming this is an honest inquiry, and not a question a wise guy would ask, no...not at all!  Even if Muslim or atheist of Buddhist or Hindu, there is no excuse for genocide.

This.

Because if them, why not you and yours next.

Please note this is a personal philosphy

Because selfishness is not Christian and there is an entire ocean of safety that allows many of us to throw up the grotesque events so far away so easily here into rhetorical pools of vomit. Using both those who are killed and those who kill to make quips on an internet forum is beyond vulgar.
January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #163 on: August 30, 2014, 08:57:40 AM »
It says in Scripture that when a person is in error, we are to correct them three times, then have nothing more to do with them.

We have given Yesh way more than three times.

Again, what is wrong with pointing to the lives of the saints as examples of the power of God to forgive sin? What is wrong with saying that God's Church, because of His gift of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and the spiritual descendants of same, has the power to forgive sins? "What you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven. What you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven."

Or is Yesh suddenly no longer the only one who doesn't believe in the efficacy of the sacrament of Confession?

Who proved St. Cyril killed anyone?

Even if he did, if he repented and confessed, that sin would be gone, it would matter no more, as if it had never happened in the first place. That is what Yesh is ignoring and that is why he needs to be corrected.

You still can't answer my questions, norm.

Yesh doesn't "need love." I do not have to play nice with everybody under the sun. Jesus didn't play nice with the moneychangers in the Temple.

So let's just keep letting Yesh play with matches in front of a nice big bucket of gasoline. It doesn't matter. The saints don't matter. The sacraments don't matter. Calling someone a murderer, without the proof of same, doesn't matter.

Let's all take a deep breath and remind ourselves that the most important thing is that not everybody says things the way orthonorm says them on an Internet forum.

Kid gloves? Why do so many metaphors around here about treating people with kindness end up invoking a child with some sort of derision. Aren't we supposed to suffer the children? Who isn't a would be child of God?

Be careful, for want of kid gloves, one might find oneself with a millstone instead.

I am hoping this is overblown sillyness but either way


You do realize that kid gloves have nothing to do with children, right.

Unless those children are goats, called kids, from which leather for very fine white gloves was made. 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #164 on: August 30, 2014, 11:25:24 AM »
Who needs your care more right now? St. Cyril or YiM? He who the Church has found worthy of sanctification or he who struggles constantly at the Church's threshold?

Is YiM struggling constantly at the Church's threshold?  In some ways, yes, I would agree.  But in other ways, he seems more interested in urinating at the Church's threshold and, with proper aim, right through the front door.  That happens as much when people, caring for him, give him the benefit of the doubt and try to work with him through his questions as it does when people give up and express frustration.  And YiM is not the only one who enjoys spraying about from time to time. 

If he and others urinate, then celebrate all the more! For you have even a greater chance to witness to the love of Christ. This would seem clear to someone who openly supports other Christians, by use of a forum avatar nonetheless, who besides being metaphorically urinated upon suffer much worse.

And who is worse? The one outside the Church urinating on the outside of the Church or those urinating within and without. If God has promised the none shall prevail against its gates, why treat with such derision any who would suppose to question, criticize, or mock it?

Their futility will again only demonstrate God's promise.

Celebrate.



Remember us and pray for us sinners.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #165 on: August 30, 2014, 02:40:28 PM »
Quote from: orthonorm
Kid gloves? Why do so many metaphors around here about treating people with kindness end up invoking a child with some sort of derision. Aren't we supposed to suffer the children? Who isn't a would be child of God?

Be careful, for want of kid gloves, one might find oneself with a millstone instead.

I am hoping this is overblown sillyness but either way

You do realize that kid gloves have nothing to do with children, right.

Unless those children are goats, called kids, from which leather for very fine white gloves was made.  

Orthonorm's improv skills stretch a little thin sometimes. Overall, tho, you must admit a good show.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:40:51 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline BrethrenBoy

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #166 on: August 30, 2014, 07:19:43 PM »
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:20:58 PM by BrethrenBoy »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #167 on: August 30, 2014, 07:36:14 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Ah, from the "Dancing Saints" extravaganza, in St Gregory's Episcopal in SF. There are all sorts of other "saints" in that pantheon of schlockography, like Malcolm X, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Lady Godiva.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Theophania

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #168 on: August 30, 2014, 08:13:06 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Well they certainly didn't model her on Rachel Weisz, did they?  :-\
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #169 on: August 30, 2014, 08:13:59 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Well they certainly didn't model her on Rachel Weisz, did they?  :-\


hence the schlock...;)

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #170 on: August 30, 2014, 08:18:35 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Well they certainly didn't model her on Rachel Weisz, did they?  :-\

I weep at what they've done to her. 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #171 on: August 30, 2014, 10:46:36 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Ah, from the "Dancing Saints" extravaganza, in St Gregory's Episcopal in SF. There are all sorts of other "saints" in that pantheon of schlockography, like Malcolm X, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Lady Godiva.

Yikes.  I clicked on the link and looked at the various panels.  I now wish I hadn't.  Among other things, they have an Orthodox bishop dancing with William Blake.  Wow.   :o

Offline BrethrenBoy

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #172 on: August 31, 2014, 01:40:12 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Ah, from the "Dancing Saints" extravaganza, in St Gregory's Episcopal in SF. There are all sorts of other "saints" in that pantheon of schlockography, like Malcolm X, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Lady Godiva.

Yikes.  I clicked on the link and looked at the various panels.  I now wish I hadn't.  Among other things, they have an Orthodox bishop dancing with William Blake.  Wow.   :o
I discovered it when it was mentioned in an article in my denomination's magazine by a pastor who had visited it. I still can't figure out how they justified depicting non-Christians as Saints to themselves. Even the most liberal Christians I know wouldn't dare dream of doing that.
"To love another person is to see the face of God." - Les Misérables

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #173 on: September 01, 2014, 12:06:59 PM »
Cyril of Alexandria....is sainted in the Eastern Orthodox church, Roman Catholic church, Oriental Orthodox church, Anglicans, and Lutherans.

Formally, the Episcopal Church doesn't call anyone "Saint" who is not mentioned in Scripture.  Even some who are mentioned
in scripture, such as Cornelius the Centurion, are not styled "saint".  Non-scriptural martyrs can, however, be styled "martyr:" 
the martyrs of Japan, the martyrs of Uganda, the martyrs of New Guinea, and so on.

Informally, we speak of those, or some of them, on our calendar of lesser feasts as "saints."   

Cyril of Alexandria is not on the Episcopal church's calendar of lesser feasts, and so is not a "saint"
even by this informal standard.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #174 on: September 01, 2014, 01:04:44 PM »
St. Hypatia anyone?

http://www.allsaintscompany.org/saint/hypatia

Ah, from the "Dancing Saints" extravaganza, in St Gregory's Episcopal in SF. There are all sorts of other "saints" in that pantheon of schlockography, like Malcolm X, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Lady Godiva.

Yikes.  I clicked on the link and looked at the various panels.  I now wish I hadn't.  Among other things, they have an Orthodox bishop dancing with William Blake.  Wow.   :o
I discovered it when it was mentioned in an article in my denomination's magazine by a pastor who had visited it. I still can't figure out how they justified depicting non-Christians as Saints to themselves. Even the most liberal Christians I know wouldn't dare dream of doing that.

Oh such a group is way beyond daring.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #175 on: September 01, 2014, 01:07:44 PM »
Cyril of Alexandria....is sainted in the Eastern Orthodox church, Roman Catholic church, Oriental Orthodox church, Anglicans, and Lutherans.

Formally, the Episcopal Church doesn't call anyone "Saint" who is not mentioned in Scripture.  Even some who are mentioned
in scripture, such as Cornelius the Centurion, are not styled "saint".  Non-scriptural martyrs can, however, be styled "martyr:" 
the martyrs of Japan, the martyrs of Uganda, the martyrs of New Guinea, and so on.

Informally, we speak of those, or some of them, on our calendar of lesser feasts as "saints."   

Cyril of Alexandria is not on the Episcopal church's calendar of lesser feasts, and so is not a "saint"
even by this informal standard.

Yet he didn't say Episcopalian. Anglicans recognize all the saints the Catholics do, at least up till the division from Rome under Henry VIII.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #176 on: September 01, 2014, 02:07:16 PM »
Cyril of Alexandria....is sainted in the Eastern Orthodox church, Roman Catholic church, Oriental Orthodox church, Anglicans, and Lutherans.

Formally, the Episcopal Church doesn't call anyone "Saint" who is not mentioned in Scripture.  Even some who are mentioned
in scripture, such as Cornelius the Centurion, are not styled "saint".  Non-scriptural martyrs can, however, be styled "martyr:" 
the martyrs of Japan, the martyrs of Uganda, the martyrs of New Guinea, and so on.

Informally, we speak of those, or some of them, on our calendar of lesser feasts as "saints."   

Cyril of Alexandria is not on the Episcopal church's calendar of lesser feasts, and so is not a "saint"
even by this informal standard.

Yet he didn't say Episcopalian. Anglicans recognize all the saints the Catholics do, at least up till the division from Rome under Henry VIII.

Since when are Episcopalians not Anglicans?

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #178 on: September 01, 2014, 02:21:48 PM »
I thought Episcopalians was just a term used for North American (and some other not-British) Anglicans? ??? I think they're historically the same thing, aren't they?

I found the same info as Mina did (St. Cyril's commemoration on February 9th), but from a slightly different source. Not sure what to make of that in light of what our Episcopalian friend claims, but I suppose this isn't the first time that Anglicans disagreed with one another on church-internal matters...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 02:22:51 PM by dzheremi »

Offline biro

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Re: Why is St. Cyril of Alexandria a saint?
« Reply #179 on: September 01, 2014, 02:35:00 PM »
Episcopalians acquired that name after the American Revolution.
My only weakness is, well, never mind