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Author Topic: The 60s and religion in the West.  (Read 391 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 24, 2014, 09:43:16 PM »

I'm watching a documentary titled " Why I Hate The Sixties by BBC ".

Apparent that the 60s were the times when in the West many values has collapsed.

In your opinion, how the 60s in the Western Civilization have changed or at least affected religion ? And was Orthodox Christianity affected by these times as well ?
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 10:41:04 PM »

I think that a few distinctions are in order. The hedonistic aspect of the 60s was certainly a big problem.

But on the flip-side, the opposition to the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement etc. all came from the 60s. In any case, I think it's wrong to claim that values "collapsed" in the 60s.
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 10:42:58 PM »

Didn't the 60s present a bit of a spiritual revival for those who would not have otherwise pursued traditional religion?
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 11:03:16 PM »

I think that a few distinctions are in order. The hedonistic aspect of the 60s was certainly a big problem.

But on the flip-side, the opposition to the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement etc. all came from the 60s. In any case, I think it's wrong to claim that values "collapsed" in the 60s.

Racism became very violent and very public in the 60s. It was there already but only in the 60s it became very organized. And as a reaction, the Civil Rights movement came out.

Thankfully, some good values also were born, such as the Civil Rights movement like you've mentioned. But the damages of the sixties on religion was very very bad. People became more lazy spiritually, want very easy religion, where there is only luuuuuuve and peace, no hell no sin type of thing.

But in general, yes, many good values collapsed in the 60s.

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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 03:08:34 AM »

Values have always been collapsing, but the spread of pseudo-Freudian psychology in the 1920s and 30s had notable effects, too -- the idea that "repressing" desires was bad, and consequently that everyone had a "right" to their share of pleasure. At least I can read these thoughts in my family members' journals and other notes.
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 03:13:46 AM »

I think that a few distinctions are in order. The hedonistic aspect of the 60s was certainly a big problem.

But on the flip-side, the opposition to the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement etc. all came from the 60s. In any case, I think it's wrong to claim that values "collapsed" in the 60s.

Racism became very violent and very public in the 60s. It was there already but only in the 60s it became very organized. And as a reaction, the Civil Rights movement came out.

Thankfully, some good values also were born, such as the Civil Rights movement like you've mentioned. But the damages of the sixties on religion was very very bad. People became more lazy spiritually, want very easy religion, where there is only luuuuuuve and peace, no hell no sin type of thing.

But in general, yes, many good values collapsed in the 60s.

Again, I disagree. It depends on where you're focusing. The hippies and co. are certainly not the parts of the 60s I would extol. But I think the Civil Rights movement, antiwar movement etc. were all positive movements with moral backbone.
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 05:36:31 AM »

I think that a few distinctions are in order. The hedonistic aspect of the 60s was certainly a big problem.

But on the flip-side, the opposition to the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement etc. all came from the 60s. In any case, I think it's wrong to claim that values "collapsed" in the 60s.

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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 05:54:34 AM »

But the damages of the sixties on religion was very very bad. People became more lazy spiritually, want very easy religion, where there is only luuuuuuve and peace, no hell no sin type of thing.

But in general, yes, many good values collapsed in the 60s.

A lot of the religious movements in the 60s were fueled by changes going on around them, and nearly completely independent of them--scientific, technological, cultural, literary, etc. It was also a reaction to the generally hard and sometimes belligerent religious attitude of many people from the previous two generations. As often happens when correcting one extreme, the intended solution swung a bit too far in the opposite direction.
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 07:10:02 AM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

Values have always been collapsing, but the spread of pseudo-Freudian psychology in the 1920s and 30s had notable effects, too -- the idea that "repressing" desires was bad, and consequently that everyone had a "right" to their share of pleasure. At least I can read these thoughts in my family members' journals and other notes.

Don't forget Dr. Spock. No, not the one from Star Trek.

I'm watching a documentary titled " Why I Hate The Sixties by BBC ".

The documentary was definitely right about architecture.

And was Orthodox Christianity affected by these times as well ?

Most of the Orthodox were behind the Iron Curtain at the time, and back then Greece had a nationalistic military dictatorship. So, the Orthodox weren't influenced nearly as much as the Protestants and the Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 09:43:43 AM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

And the Frankfurt School. And Kinsey. And René Guenón and Schuon.
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 09:49:21 AM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

And the Frankfurt School. And Kinsey. And René Guenón and Schuon.

They weren't really important. Names like Foucault and Sartre might have been used as mantras, but their writings probably weren't read.
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 10:03:33 AM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

And the Frankfurt School. And Kinsey. And René Guenón and Schuon.

They weren't really important. Names like Foucault and Sartre might have been used as mantras, but their writings probably weren't read.

That's what makes good 'teaching'. These names were the axis of liberal universities education. And the intention is not to make scholars on their philosophies, but to make people who acted on their teachings - or even on their conscious lack of any teaching.

Sexual "liberation", the rise of the concept of Western civilization as an obstacle against revolution, it's all there. Of course, all these are parasites who fed on the spoiled children syndrome and one thing would not have been possible without the other.

Despite my liking of Robin Williams in general, his most famous film, "Dead Poets Society", is a shining example of the values, ethos and "phronema" that was entirely based on deconstructionist ideals: tradition = evil, parents/family = oppression/dullness/ignorance, revolution/destruction = creativity, liveliness, freedom.  

That kind of attitude was the turning point. The problem is that when people want to counter they still believe it, so they think they either have to be stereotypically dull or opressive to be traditional (some Orthodox radtrads), or that they must create a kind of revolutionary form of "tradition" (Vatican II) to adapt to "modern times".
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 10:17:35 AM »

Sexual "liberation"

The roots of sexual liberation go back way further than the 60s, and it has little to do with philosophy.

What really gave it a boost was the widespread availability and affordability of contraceptives. The rich (along with prostitutes) could already abort or use primitive contraception. The pill and the rise of the middle class brought this within the reach of the masses.

the rise of the concept of Western civilization as an obstacle against revolution

That couldn't have happened without the World Wars and the holocaust. Somehow many people held western culture responsible. They were wrong to blame western culture, of course, but this is simply how many felt. "Make it new" and "no poetry after Auschwitz" thus became the doctrines of that time.
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 10:23:24 AM »

I'm watching a documentary titled " Why I Hate The Sixties by BBC ".

Apparent that the 60s were the times when in the West many values has collapsed.

In your opinion, how the 60s in the Western Civilization have changed or at least affected religion ? And was Orthodox Christianity affected by these times as well ?
The documentary is focused on Britain. Maybe if I were living in Britain in the '60s, I would hate it too.
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 10:31:21 AM »

I'm watching a documentary titled " Why I Hate The Sixties by BBC ".

Apparent that the 60s were the times when in the West many values has collapsed.

In your opinion, how the 60s in the Western Civilization have changed or at least affected religion ? And was Orthodox Christianity affected by these times as well ?
The documentary is focused on Britain. Maybe if I were living in Britain in the '60s, I would hate it too.

Interesting how that documentary got both conservatives (Sir Peregrine Worsthorne, Peter Hitchens et al.) and marxists (Terry Eagleton) to say the same things.
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 11:57:55 AM »

Sexual "liberation"

The roots of sexual liberation go back way further than the 60s, and it has little to do with philosophy.

What really gave it a boost was the widespread availability and affordability of contraceptives. The rich (along with prostitutes) could already abort or use primitive contraception. The pill and the rise of the middle class brought this within the reach of the masses.


I tend to doubt that line of reasoning. People always had ways of avoiding conception and they were rather cheap. What we call today phytotherapy was just "medicine" back then and how it could be used to help prevent conception was well known everywhere.

Besides, sexual liberation is far more than just "more people doing it", it is "far more people thinking it's not immoral to do it, even those who don't". It's about sexual deviations being tools of social revolution, not just about having more of them.

There has always been cohabitation, premarital sex, adultery, homossexuality, bissexuality, fetishes etc. The real issue is to get people to actually appreciate it or at least not feel strong rejection against it. That is what sexual liberation is about. That's the kind of change that only literature, art, academy, movies, music, schools, university and the media can bring about.

And the only way to achieve this is by a Gramscian-like kind of cultural revolution - and I mention Gramsci here not as a direct source of those who were engaged in this revolution, but as an author whose proposed structure of cultural revolution is effective and can explain the general trends of most such engineered changes.

I believe that contraceptives gave an window of opportunity to allow sexual liberation as a whole to "come out of the closet" but they were neither the cause nor the substance of it.
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2014, 12:14:31 PM »

I tend to doubt that line of reasoning. People always had ways of avoiding conception and they were rather cheap.

Most of them were either expensive, ineffective, dangerous or a combination of the three.

There has always been cohabitation, premarital sex, adultery, homossexuality, bissexuality, fetishes etc. The real issue is to get people to actually appreciate it or at least not feel strong rejection against it. That is what sexual liberation is about.

Mostly because the spoilt kids copied the values that were previously held by the upper classes of society. Lady Chatterley's Lover, a novel with explicit content, was written in 1928 but was only made available to the public at large in 1960.  Before that the book was only released in expensive, rare editions owned by, who else, those with a lot of money.
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2014, 12:27:43 PM »

I tend to doubt that line of reasoning. People always had ways of avoiding conception and they were rather cheap.

Most of them were either expensive, ineffective, dangerous or a combination of the three.

There has always been cohabitation, premarital sex, adultery, homossexuality, bissexuality, fetishes etc. The real issue is to get people to actually appreciate it or at least not feel strong rejection against it. That is what sexual liberation is about.

Mostly because the spoilt kids copied the values that were previously held by the upper classes of society. Lady Chatterley's Lover, a novel with explicit content, was written in 1928 but was only made available to the public at large in 1960.  Before that the book was only released in expensive, rare editions owned by, who else, those with a lot of money.

It's important to notice different types of causal relations here.

Let's use Adam-Eve-Serpent as an analogy. Adam blames Eve. Eve blames the serpent. The serpent, if God had allowed it to speak, could have said that Adam was just copying Eve and that Eve just did what she wanted to, and that if God *really* didn't want them to eat the fruit, He should simply not have made it available in the first place.

Obviously, the serpent is the efficient cause of the formal cause of the whole problem. And because once the formal cause is put in place, all that are within it act without even noticing the limits imposed by the formal cause, the serpent could, in a more complex structure, be "invisible".

Back to our concrete case. The wealthy classes were in the vanguard of depravation *because* they had been listening to these same sources for longer. People like the Frankfurtians or Marx himself to start with, were *always* a product that guilty rich people consumed to compensate for their sense of exclusion for being out of normal society. Contrary to their own claims of siding with "the people" revolutionaries have always lingered around millionaires.

When opportunity came the same "serpent" just pointed to "Eve" who had already been corrupted and, pointing to all their vices used an enchatation that works until today: "look at their *privileges*! You deserve that too!"

Cultural changes always start and are guided by the intellectual elite, although they may become visible only when it becomes pervasive in pop culture. They have the roles either of "angels" or "serpents", shaping the entire phronema within which all facts will be contextualized and acquire meaning. Kings, presidents, tycoons, politicians and generals can be the player moving their pieces to win the game. But it's priests, intellectuals, professors, artists and monks who create the board and the rules of the game.
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 01:59:54 PM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

And the Frankfurt School. And Kinsey. And René Guenón and Schuon.

They weren't really important. Names like Foucault and Sartre might have been used as mantras, but their writings probably weren't read.

Same with Herbert Marcuse.
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 02:02:08 PM »

The Vietnam War was a logical outcome of the Truman doctrine. It was a war of good intentions, and should have been fought with the intention to win. But alas, those at home didn't allow the army and the air force to wipe out the north.

In the 50s, early 60s the middle class pretty much came into being. Those that grew up during that time had more money than those of their age had ever had. They didn't have to worry about starving, unlike their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Great Depression and the rationing of WWII. Adversity breeds prudence, and the 60s kids never had to deal with any adversity. With more money on their hands they simply adopted the values that most of their richer peers had held for decades, if not for longer. Add to this a disdain for everyone over 30 and a dash of nonsensical idealism and naïveté and you have the 60s.

And the Frankfurt School. And Kinsey. And René Guenón and Schuon.

They weren't really important. Names like Foucault and Sartre might have been used as mantras, but their writings probably weren't read.

Same with Herbert Marcuse.

The importance of those philosophers is overrated. The events of the 60s would have happened with or without them.
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