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Author Topic: Group forms new Greek Orthodox parish in Salt Lake area  (Read 827 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 24, 2014, 01:36:24 AM »

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31268182&nid=148&title=group-forms-new-greek-orthodox-parish-in-salt-lake-area&s_cid=queue-7

Quote
MURRAY — A group labeling itself "progressive" voted Saturday to create an additional parish in the Salt Lake Valley.

A little more than 100 people gathered at Hillcrest Junior High, 156 E. 5600 South, to create the Greek Orthodox Mission Parish Saturday. The majority voted in the affirmative.

"This is your chance to do it right, to do what you've learned over the years and to do it with a fresh start," Father Luke Uhl, chancellor for Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver, told those gathered.

. . .


Article truncated to conform to Forum quoting policy.  Please only quote the first few paragraphs or other snippets of articles so as not to violate fair use provisions of copyright law.  Thank you.

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 12:45:23 PM »

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Greek Orthodox churches are part of the Eastern Orthodox churches. This religion was established by early Christians. Although the church puts Christ as its head, many hold a high regard for the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, headed by Patriarch Bartholomew. The Archdiocese of America is led by the Holy Eparchial Synod, with Archbishop Demetrios at its head.

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 01:04:26 PM »

So, what do they mean by 'progressive'? That could mean anything from pews to sodomy.
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 01:38:42 PM »

So, what do they mean by 'progressive'? That could mean anything from pews to sodomy.

Not really.
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 02:06:25 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2014, 02:10:29 PM »

So, what do they mean by 'progressive'? That could mean anything from pews to sodomy.
I am not part of the Greek Orthodox parish in Salt Lake so I don't know what exactly they mean by progressive, but I don't think they mean in in a "liberal" sense. From what I have heard they want to establish a Greek parish that isn't focused on being Greek, but instead focused on being Orthodox.

Here are the central tenets of the mission:

http://ocpslc.org/?page_id=10
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2014, 03:40:32 PM »

Did Archbishop Demetrios assent to this?
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2014, 03:50:06 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2014, 03:58:08 PM »

So, what do they mean by 'progressive'? That could mean anything from pews to sodomy.
I am not part of the Greek Orthodox parish in Salt Lake so I don't know what exactly they mean by progressive, but I don't think they mean in in a "liberal" sense. From what I have heard they want to establish a Greek parish that isn't focused on being Greek, but instead focused on being Orthodox.

Here are the central tenets of the mission:

http://ocpslc.org/?page_id=10

That helps a bit but it just sounds like they are trying to be what Orthodox churches should ordinarily be. It sounds like they are trying to perhaps get away from an 'ethnic club' church.
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2014, 04:13:04 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic? 
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 04:15:19 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic? 

Is that poster actually a person or just a bot that posts non-sense? I really can't tell.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 07:22:54 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.

Technically, the inclusion of this "mission" parish means that there are 2 GOA churches in Salt Lake City; one of them is the entity allowed to have 2 parishes beneath it.  That entity wishes for "unity" whatever they mean by that word.  That entity is also concerned that the mission church is going after the satellite parish, as evident by what the "progressives" have to say below:

Quote
The Orthodox Christian Progressives seek the establishment of an independent Orthodox parish preferably at Prophet Elias Greek Orthodox Church in Holladay, Utah, founded with love and respect, but will research and explore all available options so that fully informed decisions may be made.

These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

If those 100 families can afford to maintain a parish and spread the Orthodox faith, why not?  Some churches with 100 families are thriving and others are one Sunday away from having the doors closed for good....
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2014, 07:24:48 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic?  

Is that poster actually a person or just a bot that posts non-sense? I really can't tell.

In a forum with more than 9,000 "unique" members, there are bound to be some members who have a more challenging time expressing themselves compared to others....
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 07:40:45 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2014, 10:03:44 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic? 

Is that poster actually a person or just a bot that posts non-sense? I really can't tell.

A person that posts sense. It assumes that your car isn't new. I have done the mid-summer drive from So. Calif. to the Ute reservation at Fort Duchesne couple of times, once by way of Reno and once by way of Las Vegas. I also recommend having your car checked first by a mechanic (with the caveat that my experience was around 1982 and cars weren't particularly dependable then - although I did get to meet Orrin Hatch at the reservation, nice guy and he cared about the Utes. I never met my senators S. I. Hayakawa and Alan Cranston - although most public high schooler knew SI Hayakawa because he was assigned reading before he became senator.)
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2014, 10:31:28 PM »

[
If those 100 families can afford to maintain a parish and spread the Orthodox faith, why not?  Some churches with 100 families are thriving and others are one Sunday away from having the doors closed for good....

Because there are already two established GOA churches in the area.  Adding another one to the mix is more about settling the problems the parishioners have with each other by removing their contact with each other. I see little evidence in this move of anything around bringing the Orthodox faith to others.  Even if that were the case, let's entertain a hypothetical:  A person has started inquiring into Orthodoxy.  There are two parishes, one of which was formed because of some strife in the former parish so some broke away and started a new one.  Both parishes are part of the same jurisdiction.  Let us say that he goes to both GOA churches and is torn between them so he splits time between them.  Do you think that the  feuding between the members of both parishes will not be an issue?  People are people and I'm sure it would come up.  If anything, I think that this would scare away converts.  If they can't get along within their own church, is this right for me? 

I don't see this as a positive.
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2014, 10:43:09 PM »

[
If those 100 families can afford to maintain a parish and spread the Orthodox faith, why not?  Some churches with 100 families are thriving and others are one Sunday away from having the doors closed for good....

Because there are already two established GOA churches in the area.  Adding another one to the mix is more about settling the problems the parishioners have with each other by removing their contact with each other. I see little evidence in this move of anything around bringing the Orthodox faith to others.  Even if that were the case, let's entertain a hypothetical:  A person has started inquiring into Orthodoxy.  There are two parishes, one of which was formed because of some strife in the former parish so some broke away and started a new one.  Both parishes are part of the same jurisdiction.  Let us say that he goes to both GOA churches and is torn between them so he splits time between them.  Do you think that the  feuding between the members of both parishes will not be an issue?  People are people and I'm sure it would come up.  If anything, I think that this would scare away converts.  If they can't get along within their own church, is this right for me? 

I don't see this as a positive.

Is forcing everyone to stay in an ethnic culture club of a parish (if that's what was happening) and not allowing the establishment of any place that would be welcoming to converts who aren't Greek a better alternative?
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2014, 10:48:54 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic? 

Is that poster actually a person or just a bot that posts non-sense? I really can't tell.

A person that posts sense. It assumes that your car isn't new. I have done the mid-summer drive from So. Calif. to the Ute reservation at Fort Duchesne couple of times, once by way of Reno and once by way of Las Vegas. I also recommend having your car checked first by a mechanic (with the caveat that my experience was around 1982 and cars weren't particularly dependable then - although I did get to meet Orrin Hatch at the reservation, nice guy and he cared about the Utes. I never met my senators S. I. Hayakawa and Alan Cranston - although most public high schooler knew SI Hayakawa because he was assigned reading before he became senator.)
I did it once, but had already learned to take a rent-a-car.
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2014, 11:32:46 PM »

[
If those 100 families can afford to maintain a parish and spread the Orthodox faith, why not?  Some churches with 100 families are thriving and others are one Sunday away from having the doors closed for good....

Because there are already two established GOA churches in the area.

Under one parish council - with members from both parishes - dominated by the "mother" church.

Adding another one to the mix is more about settling the problems the parishioners have with each other by removing their contact with each other.

The "mother" church in SLC can interfere all she wants; she can't stop the mission from taking root.

I see little evidence in this move of anything around bringing the Orthodox faith to others.  Even if that were the case, let's entertain a hypothetical:  A person has started inquiring into Orthodoxy.  There are two parishes, one of which was formed because of some strife in the former parish so some broke away and started a new one.  Both parishes are part of the same jurisdiction.  Let us say that he goes to both GOA churches and is torn between them so he splits time between them.  Do you think that the  feuding between the members of both parishes will not be an issue?  People are people and I'm sure it would come up.  If anything, I think that this would scare away converts.  If they can't get along within their own church, is this right for me? 

I don't see this as a positive.

They didn't fight over who controlled millions in Omaha?  Cheyenne, WY?
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2014, 11:50:08 PM »

I don't know - all I know is that to get to Utah you need a vehicle mechanic.

Why specifically a vehicle mechanic? 

Is that poster actually a person or just a bot that posts non-sense? I really can't tell.

A person that posts sense. It assumes that your car isn't new. I have done the mid-summer drive from So. Calif. to the Ute reservation at Fort Duchesne couple of times, once by way of Reno and once by way of Las Vegas. I also recommend having your car checked first by a mechanic (with the caveat that my experience was around 1982 and cars weren't particularly dependable then - although I did get to meet Orrin Hatch at the reservation, nice guy and he cared about the Utes. I never met my senators S. I. Hayakawa and Alan Cranston - although most public high schooler knew SI Hayakawa because he was assigned reading before he became senator.)
I did it once, but had already learned to take a rent-a-car.

That is what I do now, but I am pretty sure I did not have a credit card back then.

In regard to another contentious thread, I will be visiting Fort Ross in three weeks. I hope to get some seeds from tree number 22 in the orchard (the lone remaining gravenstein nestled amongst some redwoods).
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 12:54:55 AM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

Hopefully the new parish will build a church in an area of town without one already - that wouldn't be such a bad development. Shorter commute times, a new physical presence in a neighborhood whose residents may never have heard of Orthodoxy, et cetera.

Why they don't just separate the two churches of the original parish into two parishes is beyond me, but I don't see why this is so bad. (Even Sts. Paul and Barnabas split after all - sometimes good people just need their space from one another.)
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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 08:20:55 AM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2014, 10:17:02 AM »

With another parish we know have parishes under the influence of two bishops who I think are both under Archbishop Demetrios.  I am afraid that it will make the current mess even worse.
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2014, 11:04:46 AM »

With another parish we know have parishes under the influence of two bishops who I think are both under Archbishop Demetrios.  I am afraid that it will make the current mess even worse.

I'm not quite sure what to make of your first sentence...
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 01:41:42 PM »

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
I attend one of the Greek parishes in Utah not in Salt Lake City, but I have had the opportunity to attend most of the Orthodox parishes in the Salt Lake area. Compared to the Russian, Serbian, and Antiochian parishes, Holy Trinity often appears to be a dying parish. It is a large, beautiful cathedral that could easily hold several hundred people, but it is common to see only a few dozen at DL, most of whom are quite elderly. Prophet Elias, which is on the east side of Salt Lake Valley seems to fare a bit better because it is more family oriented and tight-knit. They are definitely being outpaced by the rapidly growing Antiochian parish.
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 02:19:24 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
Is this commonplace? There are four GOARCH parishes in the Phoenix Valley, though I suppose each is in a different suburb.
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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 05:01:17 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
Is this commonplace? There are four GOARCH parishes in the Phoenix Valley, though I suppose each is in a different suburb.

If that is the current tendency all across the GOARCH, I can only say "Glory be to God!"

In the case of SLC, I believe the one parish (that is being served in two temples) numbers in the thousands--according to Kolmoudes about 1,300 families.
http://ocl.org/metropolitan-isaiah-closes-salt-lake-citys-holy-trinity-cathedral/
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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 09:33:39 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
Is this commonplace? There are four GOARCH parishes in the Phoenix Valley, though I suppose each is in a different suburb.

If that is the current tendency all across the GOARCH, I can only say "Glory be to God!"

In the case of SLC, I believe the one parish (that is being served in two temples) numbers in the thousands--according to Kolmoudes about 1,300 families.
http://ocl.org/metropolitan-isaiah-closes-salt-lake-citys-holy-trinity-cathedral/

I can't help wondering how the Archdiocese and its parishes come up with such numbers. Are these registered, dues-paying members of the parish? Are these all the people who go to one of the parish's churches on a Sunday? (Not likely from the sound of it.) Are these all the Greeks living in metro SLC, churchgoing or no?
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 10:52:36 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
Is this commonplace? There are four GOARCH parishes in the Phoenix Valley, though I suppose each is in a different suburb.

If that is the current tendency all across the GOARCH, I can only say "Glory be to God!"

In the case of SLC, I believe the one parish (that is being served in two temples) numbers in the thousands--according to Kolmoudes about 1,300 families.
http://ocl.org/metropolitan-isaiah-closes-salt-lake-citys-holy-trinity-cathedral/

I can't help wondering how the Archdiocese and its parishes come up with such numbers. Are these registered, dues-paying members of the parish? Are these all the people who go to one of the parish's churches on a Sunday? (Not likely from the sound of it.) Are these all the Greeks living in metro SLC, churchgoing or no?


The description of this combined parish is foreign to me. At this point I would advise that you consider attendance at these churches gossip. I do not think it is necessary to say more.
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« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2014, 09:19:41 PM »

I personally like Metropolitan ISAIAH but I think that as an administrator, he leaves much to be desired.  Three GOA churches in Salt Lake City?  Highly unnecessary.  These people aren't getting along clearly so why justify their actions by separating them?  How does that teach or enable forgiveness?  Same thing happened here in Omaha with the creation of another GOA parish when some parishioners decided they didn't like each other.  If there was a bursting of the seams of church goers, that would be different, but that wasn't the case here and I will bet it's not the case in Salt Lake either.

I believe we have already talked about the maximum size of a parish, where I cited a study that said a rector can minister to 150 souls. The new mission that is formed by 100 folks is already close to that maximum number. I would say that the GOARCH tendency to have only one church per city is not a good thing from the perspective of good pastoring, as well as growth and evangelization.

BTW, why are you saying that the existing church in SLC is not bursting at the seam? Are the existing temples too small or is church attendance rate is dismal?
Is this commonplace? There are four GOARCH parishes in the Phoenix Valley, though I suppose each is in a different suburb.

If that is the current tendency all across the GOARCH, I can only say "Glory be to God!"

In the case of SLC, I believe the one parish (that is being served in two temples) numbers in the thousands--according to Kolmoudes about 1,300 families.
http://ocl.org/metropolitan-isaiah-closes-salt-lake-citys-holy-trinity-cathedral/

I can't help wondering how the Archdiocese and its parishes come up with such numbers. Are these registered, dues-paying members of the parish? Are these all the people who go to one of the parish's churches on a Sunday? (Not likely from the sound of it.) Are these all the Greeks living in metro SLC, churchgoing or no?
I assume this number is derived in a uniform manner from parish to parish, in which case the number of "families" is the number of stewardship cards that are being filled out annually. That is how GOARCH parishes in my corner of the nation do it.
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