Author Topic: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.  (Read 2929 times)

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Raylight

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" The scientist Richard Dawkins has become embroiled in another Twitter row, claiming it would be “immoral” to carry on with a pregnancy if the mother knew the foetus had Down’s syndrome. "


http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

Raylight

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 07:26:36 AM »
Here is what he said exactly...

" Dawkins tweeted: “Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.” "

What is immoral is what he said. " Abort it and try again..." Oh, that is cool. I'm just going to abort it and try again.   ::)

He doesn't know or maybe he knows but ignores that he is talking about a life, a valuable life, not something that you can get rid of if you don't like and " try again ".

« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 07:45:38 AM by Raylight »

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 08:43:29 AM »
Dawkins clarifies:

Quote
Of course I regret using abbreviated phraseology which caused so much upset. I never wanted to “cry havoc”!
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Keble

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 08:49:05 AM »
His revised "advice" gives evidence that he doesn't know much about what Downs is like, but at any rate I see no reason to take him as a moral authority, even were I an atheist.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 11:54:59 AM »
Dawkins clarifies:

Quote
Of course I regret using abbreviated phraseology which caused so much upset. I never wanted to “cry havoc”!

"Cry havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War." - Shakespeare

I think he hates his own life and own situation and is mad at God for it -  thus wants to make others faithless.  Yes, I'm blunt.

Any atheist who "fights and debates" religious people has an anti-god agenda.  They aren't "helping" anybody.  I've known atheists who are just atheist and leave other people alone.   Then there are ones who hate God and want to ruin other's faith.

Some of the happiest people I have ever met in my entire life have downs.    They are children of God and human beings.    There is one who is a bagger at a nearby grocery store.  Great guy.  He is always happy to do a great job bagging groceries and he is very happy to do so.  He smiles so big to give him a tip afterwards.   Who is Dawkins to judge "who is a better person and deserves to live".

I'd rather be a happy downs syndrome bagger than a miserable rich man... That's for sure. 

Dawkins purely promotes murder and anti-faith.   
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 12:45:40 PM »
Perhaps it would be best to pray for him, although he would not welcome it.

Of concern is the effect his words may have on, first, those having heard the news that their coming child has tested positive for Down's Syndrome and are agonising over their choices, and, second, those with Down's Syndrome members in their families or circle who feel the one they love is being found wanting in all of this.

They too may need our prayers, may I suggest.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:46:13 PM by Santagranddad »

Offline Antonis

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2014, 12:59:30 PM »
Not really surprised, though I would extend it to all people. Why not a person with a below-average IQ, or average IQ? Honestly, everyone suffers, so the logical conclusion would be a self-destruction of the human race. Probably the easiest and most "moral" thing to do from the mindset of someone like Dawkins.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 01:09:09 PM »
Quote
I personally would go further and say that, if your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare.

By this reasoning, I wonder if (ethnic/religious/etc.) minorities should therefore abort their children in societies where they're actively oppressed or persecuted? In order to "increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering" from "the point of view of the child's own welfare."

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 01:56:10 PM »
And now we know what he believes in, Social Darwinism.

I don't know how it's "immoral" to help someone who was born irregularly, to lead a happy life.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 03:52:50 PM »
If the majority of the human population was comprised of people with Down's Syndrome, I imagine that we wouldn't have as much war, violence, and racism in the world. And yet somehow these precious souls are viewed as less human than the rest of us. In their arrogance and ignorance, people self-righteously judge these innocent souls as 'defective' and not deserving of the chance to be born. It's the tragic and timeless fate of humanity: mankind perpetually rejects, condemns, and slaughters his own salvation.


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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2014, 03:56:28 PM »
Not really surprised, though I would extend it to all people. Why not a person with a below-average IQ, or average IQ? Honestly, everyone suffers, so the logical conclusion would be a self-destruction of the human race. Probably the easiest and most "moral" thing to do from the mindset of someone like Dawkins.

Has Dawkins ever come out advising people not to have sex?  Why or why not? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2014, 04:06:39 PM »
Not really surprised, though I would extend it to all people. Why not a person with a below-average IQ, or average IQ? Honestly, everyone suffers, so the logical conclusion would be a self-destruction of the human race. Probably the easiest and most "moral" thing to do from the mindset of someone like Dawkins.

Has Dawkins ever come out advising people not to have sex?  Why or why not? 
Not that I know of. Probably because he gets attention and money making people feel like they are moral and better than others for doing bad things that they want to do.
How has Antonis not become an Old Calendarist yet?
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2014, 04:32:18 PM »
....
Has Dawkins ever come out advising people not to have sex?  Why or why not?  
I was afraid you would ask that.

Quote
QUESTION: In what way could we liberate ourselves from the Darwinian world? If this is a philosophical issue as opposed to a scientific one, what do you mean by that?

MR. DAWKINS: Some people are puzzled by the sense in which it's possible to take a deliberate decision to emancipate ourselves from the Darwinian world. Well, we know we do it, because every time we look unreceptive we are doing something anti-Darwinian. What happens is that Darwinian natural selection has built into us sexual desire for obvious good Darwinian reasons. In nature, where there are no contraceptives, sexual desire leads you to copulate. Copulation leads to children. That's all the genes need. In the modern world contraceptives have been invented, so it's possible to enjoy copulation without the follow-up, without having children. And we do. And many of us do it all the time. And it is something which is manifestly and factually counter-Darwinian -- anti-Darwinian, anti the dictates of the selfish genes.

I suppose Dawkins would also categorize celibacy as anti-Darwinian, though I don't know if he has advised anyone to be celibate. I do know he admires those who can be celibate for 50 million years.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 04:35:58 PM by Jetavan »
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2014, 04:49:32 PM »
MR. DAWKINS: Some people are puzzled by the sense in which it's possible to take a deliberate decision to emancipate ourselves from the Darwinian world. Well, we know we do it, because every time we look unreceptive we are doing something anti-Darwinian. What happens is that Darwinian natural selection has built into us sexual desire for obvious good Darwinian reasons. In nature, where there are no contraceptives, sexual desire leads you to copulate. Copulation leads to children. That's all the genes need. In the modern world contraceptives have been invented, so it's possible to enjoy copulation without the follow-up, without having children. And we do. And many of us do it all the time. And it is something which is manifestly and factually counter-Darwinian -- anti-Darwinian, anti the dictates of the selfish genes.

Ok, I don't get this. So far as I know evolution doesn't say that we will/do try to have as much sex as we can, and as many children as we can, etc. If you have 20 children and they all die, and someone else has 2 children and they live... it's obvious whose genes are going to continue on. Sometimes less children, or children at the correct time in an animal's life cycle, or reproduction given the proper variables (plentiful food, etc.) is what is needed. Aren't there a bazillion examples of this in nature, where animals will live their lives in such a way as to limit when/where/how they reproduce, for example travel hundreds or thousands of miles to mate, only mating once in their lives, masturbating rather than having sexual intercourse, etc.?

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2014, 04:58:27 PM »
If the majority of the human population was comprised of people with Down's Syndrome, I imagine that we wouldn't have as much war, violence, and racism in the world. And yet somehow these precious souls are viewed as less human than the rest of us. In their arrogance and ignorance, people self-righteously judge these innocent souls as 'defective' and not deserving of the chance to be born. It's the tragic and timeless fate of humanity: mankind perpetually rejects, condemns, and slaughters his own salvation.


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« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 04:58:40 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2014, 09:00:42 PM »
MR. DAWKINS: Some people are puzzled by the sense in which it's possible to take a deliberate decision to emancipate ourselves from the Darwinian world. Well, we know we do it, because every time we look unreceptive we are doing something anti-Darwinian. What happens is that Darwinian natural selection has built into us sexual desire for obvious good Darwinian reasons. In nature, where there are no contraceptives, sexual desire leads you to copulate. Copulation leads to children. That's all the genes need. In the modern world contraceptives have been invented, so it's possible to enjoy copulation without the follow-up, without having children. And we do. And many of us do it all the time. And it is something which is manifestly and factually counter-Darwinian -- anti-Darwinian, anti the dictates of the selfish genes.

Ok, I don't get this. So far as I know evolution doesn't say that we will/do try to have as much sex as we can, and as many children as we can, etc. If you have 20 children and they all die, and someone else has 2 children and they live... it's obvious whose genes are going to continue on. Sometimes less children, or children at the correct time in an animal's life cycle, or reproduction given the proper variables (plentiful food, etc.) is what is needed. Aren't there a bazillion examples of this in nature, where animals will live their lives in such a way as to limit when/where/how they reproduce, for example travel hundreds or thousands of miles to mate, only mating once in their lives, masturbating rather than having sexual intercourse, etc.?
You are correct. Dawkins' biases are showing.
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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2014, 09:16:44 PM »
We all love ourselves some sex. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2014, 09:22:19 PM »
We all love ourselves some sex. 
TMI
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2014, 09:25:40 PM »
We all love ourselves some sex. 
TMI

Obviously you haven't read Faith Issues lately.  :P
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2014, 09:27:14 PM »
Dawkins said something that upsets Christians. In other news, the Sun rose again today.

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Re: Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome.
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 06:20:55 AM »
Oh boy. I'm not sure I want to know what it was.
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