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Offline Intrigued Latin

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« on: May 04, 2005, 01:46:09 PM »
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I'm new to this forum and thought that I'd introduce myself. I am a Latin Rite Catholic who was married in the Greek Orthodox Church 8 years ago. My wife is of Slavic Macedonian ancestry from Greece. We baptized our daughter in the Greek Orthodox Church over a year ago, and giving that my wife is not very religious, I've taken the responsibility to provide a religious education to our daughter.
I am continually intrigued by the Orthodox faith and Tradition, and I hope in my heart that one day, the Hierarchs of our Apostolic Churches will be able to overcome their differences so that we all may be one and restore the body of Christ.
I look forward to the interesting dialogue in this forum.

Yours in Christ,
Brad
« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 01:48:13 PM by Intrigued Latin »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2005, 01:52:34 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Brad! We look forward to discussing these issues with you.

Anastasios
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Jakub

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2005, 02:28:41 PM »
Welcome brother Brad !

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Offline lpap

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2005, 02:45:48 PM »
Welcome brother,

I find it quite odd that you will provide religious education to the Greek Orthodox Christian daughter of yours.

I am a litle confuse, because I don't understand what you will answer to her when she 'll ask you "Why papa didn't you baptized as Orthodox yourself too"?

I understand that you are Roman-Catholic.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 02:47:08 PM by lpap »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2005, 02:50:05 PM »
Welcome brother,

I find it quite odd that you will provide religious education to the Greek Orthodox Christian daughter of yours.

I am a litle confuse, because I don't understand what you will answer to her when she 'll ask you "Why papa didn't you baptized as Orthodox yourself too"?

I understand that you are Roman-Catholic.

Well, what is he supposed to do? His wife is not doing it so he does the best he can.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2005, 03:02:44 PM »
Welcome, Brad. Have you been lurking for a bit so that you know some of the denizens errr  posters?  ;D

Ebor
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Offline Intrigued Latin

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2005, 03:11:21 PM »

My Daughter will attend Catholic School, so I think she will get the foundations of our Christian faith from her school.
As for the theology and the difference between the East and the West,  I'm sure that she won't be asking those types of questions until she's old enough to visit Orthodoxchristianity.net.  ;)

As for her asking me why I was not bapitized Orthodox myself, that is something that I will address if she aks.  I'm actually expecting her to ask "why did you not baptize me Catholic"  which we should have done in the first place.
My wife appreciates the beauty of the Orthodox Tradition, but really knows nothing about it.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2005, 11:38:54 PM »

As for her asking me why I was not bapitized Orthodox myself, that is something that I will address if she aks. I'm actually expecting her to ask "why did you not baptize me Catholic" which we should have done in the first place.

Well, Intrigued Latin, it certainly seems that you've got a pretty good handle on your situation and how to handle it. I don't think the anticipated problems will be as great as you may worry them to be.
I DID, however, get a good chuckle reading your thoughts quoted above. From our perspective in the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East (canonical name of 'Eastern Orthodoxy') we would say that you have already baptized your daughter "Catholic" ;) --- just not Roman Catholic.

A few months ago I read that some serious Roman Catholic apologists, when they consider Orthodoxy, see themselves in the 8th or 9th century. And we of course could respond, well...yes! that is so. Online fora tend to stress differences at the expense of commonality recognition. I am confident you'll see your way clear for your family's sake.

Demetri
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Offline Intrigued Latin

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2005, 01:28:51 PM »
Thanks Demitri.
I personally do not like the term "Roman" in the denomination of Roman Catholic.
The term "Roman" Catholic was coined by the Anglican as a term of derision.  I believe at the time of the Reformation, the Anglicans referrred to themselves as Catholics as well, thus the inclusion of "Roman"
Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic. Although extensively used it is a misnomer.
It should be Latin Catholic and Latin Rite.
Just like the term "Uniate" (Orthodox who are in Communion with Rome) it is inapproiate for these terms to be used.
To use the word Roman would limit the Church to those ethnic Romans. I am not a Roman!
As we all know not all Catholics are Latin. 

Brad
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Offline Amadeus

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2005, 02:56:21 PM »
Dear Brad:

Welcome to OC.net!

You are one of the few Latins who venture into this Forum. But with your current exposure to Orthodoxy, I am fairly certain that you will survive the heat and the hits. ;)

Amado :angel:

P.S. I repair to byzcath.org to cool off! ;D


Offline Orthodoc

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2005, 03:26:52 PM »
Quote:

[It should be Latin Catholic and Latin Rite.
Just like the term "Uniate" (Orthodox who are in Communion with Rome) it is inapproiate for these terms to be used.
To use the word Roman would limit the Church to those ethnic Romans. I am not a Roman!
As we all know not all Catholics are Latin. ]

Brad:

And all Catholics are not under papal authority.

Welcome to the forum. Though I feel I must correct you regarding your comment about 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'. There is no such thing. To label those who use an Eastern Rite and are under the authority of the Pope as such is an oxymoron. It denotes a false impression that we Orthodox Catholics identify ourselves srictly by the ritual we practice rather than the doctrine and dogma we protect and uphold. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Those who are 'in communion with' and therefore 'under the authority of Rome' are members of that church in all respects. As such they are required to accept the theology of said church by that very union. This, in itself does not make them 'Orthodox' in any way, shape, or form. They either accept the theology of their highest earthly authority or they don't. If they don't accept the theology of the papal Catholic Church then they are saying in essence that they are knowingly and willingly under the authortity of a Bishop who proclaims and upholds theology they don't recognize and are therefore in comunion with a bishop they see as a heterodox.

The problem you seem to have is that you are under the impression that the title 'Catholic' belongs exclusively to the Church centered around the Roman Patriarch. May I remind you that it does not. We, as "Orthodox Christians' are just as Catholic as those who recognize Rome as their final authority. The word 'Catholic' has nothing to do with being in communion with the Pope. Never has and never will -

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_principles/id/5547.html

Orthodoc

Go ahead and vent Amado.


« Last Edit: May 05, 2005, 03:29:50 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline Amadeus

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2005, 04:07:56 PM »
Thank you, Bob, but I won't.

Amado

Offline Philokalia

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2005, 04:27:22 PM »
Thanks Demitri.
I personally do not like the term "Roman" in the denomination of Roman Catholic.

To use the word Roman would limit the Church to those ethnic Romans. I am not a Roman!
As we all know not all Catholics are Latin. 

Brad

I know what you mean I usually refer to myself as just Catholic. In this context I use the Roman prefix because everyone knows what it means. I'm Latin rite too but RC covers a multitude of liturgical usages.

Anyway best of luck with the family. My brother is in a Catholic/Protestant marriage and my nephew seems to be doing just fine. My guess is he'll turn out more religious than his parents.
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Offline Intrigued Latin

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2005, 04:30:12 PM »
Quote:

The problem you seem to have is that you are under the impression that the title 'Catholic' belongs exclusively to the Church centered around the Roman Patriarch. May I remind you that it does not. We, as "Orthodox Christians' are just as Catholic as those who recognize Rome as their final authority. The word 'Catholic' has nothing to do with being in communion with the Pope. Never has and never will -

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_principles/id/5547.html

Orthodoc

Go ahead and vent Amado.



Orthodoc,
Thanks for your post, I completely agree with you. The Orthodox Christians are just as catholic (note little 'c') as I am Catholic.
So if that's the case, There's quite possibly be orthodox Catholics as well.. do you not agree ?
The word Orthodox is not strictly to be reseved for the Sister Christian Churches of the East.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2005, 05:32:48 PM »
Intrigued Latin,

Interceding posts not witrhstanding., I like you very much already.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2005, 06:38:35 PM »
[Orthodoc,
Thanks for your post, I completely agree with you. The Orthodox Christians are just as catholic (note little 'c') as I am Catholic.
So if that's the case, There's quite possibly be orthodox Catholics as well.. do you not agree ?
The word Orthodox is not strictly to be reseved for the Sister Christian Churches of the East. ]

I agree as long a the word orthodox is spelled with a small 'o'. Same as I spell papal with a small 'p' to distinguish my Catholicity from those who have allegiance to Rome. However, I will not agree the the small 'c' in my Catholic identity. That would indicate that Rome has more rights to the word than the Orthodox. It does not now nor has it ever. Since the word 'Orthodox' is a Greek word which refers to correct or unchanged belief, I think its meaning more fits those of us who are members of the four other original Patriarchs that Rome severed relations with at the beginning of the second millenium. Since we have not changed, added, or subtracted from those beliefs shared by all when we were still basically one.

I will however object to the 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' identity being used by people who turned their backs on Orthodoxy in either the latter part of the 16th century or the beginiing of the 17th. Thats like those within the 30,000+ Protestant denominations still identifying themselves as 'Roman Catholics not in communion with Rome'. Those who know the history of the 'unia' know that it was used as a deceptive tool against we Orthodox Catholics in the past.

Orthodoc

« Last Edit: May 05, 2005, 06:40:17 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline Kizzy

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2005, 10:23:13 PM »
Thanks Demitri.
I personally do not like the term "Roman" in the denomination of Roman Catholic.
The term "Roman" Catholic was coined by the Anglican as a term of derision. I believe at the time of the Reformation, the Anglicans referrred to themselves as Catholics as well, thus the inclusion of "Roman"
Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic. Although extensively used it is a misnomer.
It should be Latin Catholic and Latin Rite.
Just like the term "Uniate" (Orthodox who are in Communion with Rome) it is inapproiate for these terms to be used.
To use the word Roman would limit the Church to those ethnic Romans. I am not a Roman!
As we all know not all Catholics are Latin.

Brad
Hello Brad and welcome to the forum.  Actually on the topic of the 'Roman' church I will refer to Professor Father Constantelos of Stockton College, who is an expert in Byzantine history.  I had the occasion to hear him at our church one day and he discussed this topic.  He noted that the name  'Greek' church had nothing to do with Greek nationalism, just as Roman had nothing to do with Roman 'nationalism' - the terms simply delineated the one that practiced in the East among the Greek speaking people (and even the Jews were Hellenized at that time) and the one that practiced out of the Roman see.  What happened is that the GO church also became the church of Greece and later became confused with Greek Nationalism- this never happened with the RC church, which retained the title  no matter where it operated.  So neither does one need to be Greek to be GO- (although that is how it often turns out), nor Roman to be RC. Actually it is unfortunate that the GO church nomenclature became confused with nationalism- because it confuses the church heritage to the point that now it's 'Greekness' over shadows the Orthodox part.... at least in the GOA.. and the Orthodox part should clearly be the dominant factor.   

I wish you luck in your situation- I am sure it will be fine... believe me when I say you are not alone and have lots of company in your situation in the GO church... If you run into the need for guidance...e-mail Father Joanides  - the Director of the GOA dept. of Interfaith marriage. He is  a priest, but also a certified marriage counselor and he conducted the first ever study in America on interfaith marriage- since the stats on these are overwhelming at this time. You can find him via the www.goarch.org website.

In XC, Kizzy

 
In XC, Kizzy

Offline prodromos

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2005, 02:34:19 AM »

Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic.


Christ is Risen!

Welcome to the forum Brad. You might be interested to learn that the Roman Empire continued right up until the fall of Constantinople to the Muslims, long after Rome had fallen to the Franks, so the people with the most legitimate claim on the name "Roman" are in fact the Greeks :D. And as Orthodoc pointed out, Orthodox are also "Catholic" in every sense of the word (it is afterall a Greek word) so as it turns out it is actually the Greek Orthodox who have the strongest claim on the term "Roman Catholic"

It would, of course, confuse too many people if we insisted on it. We have enough trouble explaining to people that we are not Jewish when they learn that we are Orthodox ;)

John.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2005, 02:47:12 AM »
"Give me a word, any word; and I prove to you that the root of that word...is Greek." - Gus Portokalos -MBFGW

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm caught in Big Fat Greek Weddingland, but my German-Scottish spouse bought the DVD before Pascha and has already viewed it about 9 times since Sunday...I'm hearing bouzouki chords in my sleep.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 02:47:57 AM by +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é »
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Offline prodromos

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2005, 02:50:56 AM »

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm caught in Big Fat Greek Weddingland, but my German-Scottish spouse bought the DVD before Pascha and has already viewed it about 9 times since Sunday...I'm hearing bouzouki chords in my sleep.


You know what bugged me most about that movie? I thought the baptism took place in a Greek speaking Anglican church!

Oh, and I'm Swedish-Scottish ;D

John
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 02:52:23 AM by prodromos »

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2005, 02:54:27 AM »
Well, John, I am afraid you will find most GO temples to be like that on this side of the pond.

To quote TomS and +¥+¦+¦-ä+¦-ü+¦++-é, "Take back the GOA!".


Hellenic mutt here.   :D
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 02:56:27 AM by +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é »
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Offline Hadel

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2005, 03:03:13 AM »
I have a question...what is the right term if you "follow" the Pope of Rome and the Pope of Constantintnople? And yes, there is such a religion...I just want to see some opinions....thanks.

In Christ and Truth,
Hadel
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Offline prodromos

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2005, 03:07:58 AM »

I have a question...what is the right term if you "follow" the Pope of Rome and the Pope of Constantintnople? And yes, there is such a religion...I just want to see some opinions....thanks.


I would say "very confused" ;D

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2005, 03:10:12 AM »
And I'd say "very good answer" there.
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Offline Intrigued Latin

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2005, 08:30:08 AM »
While we're on the topic of my Big Fat Greek Wedding,  did you know that the Church used was St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in my hometown of Toronto.

Thank you all for your warm welcome. I'm beginning think I can take my shoes off and make myself at home.
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Offline MsGuided

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2005, 08:35:20 AM »
Please do, pull up a chair and stay a while.  Nuestra casa es su casa. 
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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2005, 09:26:46 AM »
While we're on the topic of my Big Fat Greek Wedding, did you know that the Church used was St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in my hometown of Toronto.

Ah! That's where. I wondered and didn't see anything in the film credits. Thanks.
Quote
Thank you all for your warm welcome. I'm beginning think I can take my shoes off and make myself at home.

Be forewarned - this place is highly addictive and habit forming.  :)
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2005, 11:11:12 AM »
[Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic.]

That's funny. I'm looking at my fathers baptismal certificate dated in 1911. It clearly states St Jeromes ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. In the small town I come from there are four different churches separarted by ethnic identity that have allegiance to the Roman Pntifff. And each one has the word ROMAN CATHOLIC on the corner stone of the building. Same goes for those such churches that are under Roman authority in the surrounding towns. This also includes the church that is just four blocks from me which was built in 1958 and has St Williams ROMAN CATHOLI CHURCH on its corner stone.

Why all of a sudden is it so terrible to be called a Roman Catholic when it was quite acceptable in the past generations?


Orthodoc


« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 11:13:30 AM by Orthodoc »
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And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2005, 11:16:20 AM »
I have a question...what is the right term if you "follow" the Pope of Rome and the Pope of Constantintnople? And yes, there is such a religion...I just want to see some opinions....thanks.

In Christ and Truth,
Hadel

What Pope of Constaninople?  There is no such animal!

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Offline Intrigued Latin

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2005, 03:33:56 PM »
[Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic.]

That's funny. I'm looking at my fathers baptismal certificate dated in 1911. It clearly states St Jeromes ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. In the small town I come from there are four different churches separarted by ethnic identity that have allegiance to the Roman Pntifff. And each one has the word ROMAN CATHOLIC on the corner stone of the building. Same goes for those such churches that are under Roman authority in the surrounding towns. This also includes the church that is just four blocks from me which was built in 1958 and has St Williams ROMAN CATHOLI CHURCH on its corner stone.

Why all of a sudden is it so terrible to be called a Roman Catholic when it was quite acceptable in the past generations?

Orthodoc


Have you ever noticed that everyone calls it the Roman Catholic Church except Herself. No where in any Catholic Church document does it say Roman Catholic Church. Even during the announcment of Pope Benedict XVI the Cardinal said Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Josephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae (Holy Roman Church) Cardinalem Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI .
(My emphasis)

Most Latin Catholics feel the need to stress their allegiance to Rome and therefore add Roman.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 04:02:39 PM by Intrigued Latin »
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Offline Kizzy

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2005, 05:09:09 PM »


What Pope of Constaninople? There is no such animal!


Some EO Hierarchs also use the word Pope, I copied this from the Alexandria Patriarchate website:
His Beatitude

THEODOROS II

Pope & Patriarch of Alexandria & All Africa

Pope is from papa from Greek papas, a variant of pappas, father.  It was used far more liberally in the early church than it is now.

In XC, KIzzy
In XC, Kizzy

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2005, 10:57:01 PM »


Have you ever noticed that everyone calls it the Roman Catholic Church except Herself. No where in any Catholic Church document does it say Roman Catholic Church. Even during the announcment of Pope Benedict XVI the Cardinal said Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Josephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae (Holy Roman Church) Cardinalem Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI .
(My emphasis)

Most Latin Catholics feel the need to stress their allegiance to Rome and therefore add Roman.

and a mirror image...
on our side, "Eastern Orthodoxy" has always referred to itself as The Catholic Church or The Church of Christ. Never stopped using the name, officially.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Jennifer

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2005, 11:46:41 PM »

Have you ever noticed that everyone calls it the Roman Catholic Church except Herself.  No where in any Catholic Church document does it say Roman Catholic Church.  Even during the announcment of Pope Benedict XVI the Cardinal said Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Josephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae (Holy Roman Church) Cardinalem Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI .
(My emphasis)


The Roman Catholic Church in Eastern Oklahoma

Frankly, I don't see why "Roman Catholic" is such an insult.  I know it was an insult in the past but it has become the standard way of describing western rite Catholics in communion with Rome. 

I also don't see what's so offensive about "Roman."  Rome is the foundation of western culture.  We're all Romans in a way.  If I was RC, I'd be proud to be Roman. 


Offline Hadel

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Re: new to the forum
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2005, 03:55:02 AM »
Yes, in Arabic, we use "Pope" not the same meaning as in English so please, no Orthodox member panic with this term.

Here is a kind of a joke  with some meaning to it: D:

A Man dies and reaches the gates of Heaven... St. Peter the Guard of the gate asks the Man "Which religion do you belong with?" The Man answers "Roman Catholic."  Peter says, "Sorry, we are full on the right side of Heaven with Catholics, but take your pick we have the Baptists, here, the Anglicans there, Episcopalians over here, and of course we have the Orthodox here on the left...however, would you prefer Armenian, Coptic, Syrian, Greek...." The Man finally says, "I thought this was Heaven and all is united in Heaven?" St. Peter replies "Yes, Our Lord Jesus tried, but everyone refused to listen and started to bargain and argue and judge and point fingers so Jesus divided Heaven to appease all who believe in him. So which do you choose?" The Man makes a decision and says to St. Peter, "I choose Our Lord Jesus."

Get it? Good  ;D Don't get it then ponder on it... ;) :D

In Christ and Truth,
Hadel
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.