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Author Topic: The Council of Ephesus and its implications for Papal infallibility  (Read 2774 times) Average Rating: 0
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2014, 11:36:01 PM »

Not sure I want to get my finger prints on this thread, but let me give you my two cents, or maybe about 10% thereof.

But as a historian, how could you account for what Philip is saying? It is just a nice gesture?

I don't have anything against those questions, but first I'd like to understand what you said already, in the OP. Do you see infallibility (either of popes in general or of St. Peter specifically) being discussed in the Phillip quote? If so, where?

Bump.

Infallibility can be seen from the Philip quote if one exegetes the statement in the following manner.

1) Philip claims that Peter, the man, was the firm foundation and pillar of the whole Catholic Church
2) Pillars and foundations are the very thing which gives the whole structure its strength, stability, and its ability to stand
3) Pillars and foundations can never be separated from the whole structure, without the whole structure falling apart
4) The whole Church is the missionary society of Christ to proclaim the gospel to all nations, and therefore it must be infallible
5) Therefore the pillar and foundation of the Church must have this infallible quality
6) Philip claims that Peter continues to be "active" in the Church through his successors, both now and "forever".
7) The bishops of Rome are the infallible heads of the whole Church Catholic
And this, children, is why symbolic logic classes should be taught in school.

I said Infallibility "can" be seen, not "must" be seen. Perhaps you should take a class yourself. And at the end of the day, your response is a hand wave, and really doesn't even interact with the data.
No worries, I took it in college. If you would like me address it, I will. First, you have far too many postulates. Second, you have a conclusion in the middle of the theorem. Conclusions always go at the end. Third, your conclusion cannot be derived from the stated postulates. Fourth, you affirmed the consequent which is a logical fallacy.

Now, to look at it from a different perspective. Here is your argument.
According to Philip:
P1. Peter was the foundation of the Catholic Church.
P2. The Church is infallible
Conclusion: Therefore, as the foundation of the Church, Peter is also infallible

You then have a second argument that states:
C1. Per prior proof, Peter is infallible
P2. Fallibility cannot come from infallibility
P3. Bishop of Rome comes from Peter
Conclusion: Therefore, all Bishops of Rome are infallible

Let us first examine the first argument. It cannot be argued that because the set is infallible that a subset cannot be fallible.  Indeed, if this were the case, then every person in the Church could claim infallibility. Second, Philip never introduces infallibility into the discussion, so we cannot, from Philip, derive that he even believes in the infallibility of the Church. Therefore we have an invalid postulate and a logical fallacy.

Now, to examine the second argument which falls first on the fact that C1 was not proved.  Second, we cannot demonstrate that fallibility cannot come from infallibility and considering the fact that humanity came from God, it is evident that falliblity can come from infallibility. We also have an additional problem that it cannot be demonstrated that the Bishop of Rome is the sole descendant of Peter, indeed, it could be argued that anyone who was ordained or followed Peter would have an equal claim to infallibility.

Those are my initial thoughts on the logical problems surrounding your theory.





Nothing substantial has been said here. In fact you've ignored some major parts:

1) Philip says that Peter continues to AND EVER "lives" and "judges" (preside) in his successors, of which, at the time, was in Celestine of Rome. There seems to be an implication that this Petrine activity is ongoing.

2) The whole Church is infallible. Would you agree?

3) If Peter is the foundation of the Church, how could the foundation be subject to heresy or apostacy ?

4) You presume that the "set" (Church) can be "infallible" while a "subset" (Peter) is fallible. But that's the issue, Peter is not just a "subset" but is the source of the episcopate, as Cyprian says, the very foundation of the whole Catholic Church. The Pillar is not a subset of the whole. If the pillar is cracked and separated, the set is finished.

(1) Except that you assume that the Bishop of Rome is the only legitimate successor to Peter's magic infallible powers. Where do you get that from?

Let's be clear. "I" do not "assume". In fact, I am seriously inquiring Orthodoxy. However, as a Catholic, I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.

Secondly, it is not so much "I" assume, but rather the Fathers who, on both East and West, understood that there was a universal principle of petrinias in the whole episcopate everywhere, but also understood there to be a very special sense in which the bishops of Rome, on account of being heir to all of Peter's ministry (St Leo), are successors of Peter.

Again, I haven't seen anything that would determine that apart from the obvious; Rome was the capital of the empire. That's why it was special.

I've already said this to another poster, maybe it was you but...

Quote
"Pre-eminence" "special" "specific" "particular" "unique" etc. as far as I know, are not synonyms for the words "infallible" or "supreme", until you can find a dictionary definition that says otherwise, your words are meaningless.


And so none of the Councils or statements of the Fathers matter to you?

They matter to me greatly, which is why I don't buy the claims of Rome. Granted, I haven't read all of the pre-Nicene Fathers but the ones I have read don't say anything about infallible powers of a specific man residing in Rome.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZGMRsKMkHduo7fHBCPOq7QT9aVel5GWSnPAbT3fa_HM/mobilebasic

Scan the first five quotes, and only the first could be used (as it always is) to argue Papal infallibility. Even so, not enough information is given in the text as to what Jerome is talking about, and especially nothing related to infallibility.

Small clauses, with the ellipsis and no context shouldn't even be taken seriously, and when reading these quotes we should remember the dates and historical contexts. I'll read through all of them when I have the time. There is a quote in Alan Dershowitz' The Case for Israel that spans over 87 pages, and he gets away with it using the ellipsis. Just an example on how a little tampering with linguistic units can dishonestly manipulate the actual content of information.

I mostly limit my considerations to pre-Nicene Fathers because of later imperial interference into the Church, and what effect that might have on the character and rhetoric of the person writing.
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« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2014, 11:48:55 PM »

But there doesn't need to be an explicit statement "Rome is infallible".


All you need is a fresh teaching that the singular successors of Peter are themselves, the true rock and pillar of the Catholic Church, and that this designation of Petrine authority is part of the essence of the Church from its birth (pentecost) to is gathering with Christ in the clouds, and is directly designed by Christ himself. From this, every Papal claim is thereby justified.
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« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2014, 11:57:37 PM »

But there doesn't need to be an explicit statement "Rome is infallible".


All you need is a fresh teaching that the singular successors of Peter are themselves, the true rock and pillar of the Catholic Church, and that this designation of Petrine authority is part of the essence of the Church from its birth (pentecost) to is gathering with Christ in the clouds, and is directly designed by Christ himself. From this, every Papal claim is thereby justified.

You're right that there doesn't need to be an explicit statement, but rather an explicit demonstration. Or at the very least, a well reasoned one. If we assume that everything you just typed is true, does that mean you accept the supremacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Antioch? Seeing as how he sits on the chair of Peter, and is his successor in the same way the Roman Bishop is, in that Peter founded the Antiochian See just as he founded the Roman one?
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« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2014, 04:42:45 AM »

But there doesn't need to be an explicit statement "Rome is infallible".


All you need is a fresh teaching that the singular successors of Peter are themselves, the true rock and pillar of the Catholic Church, and that this designation of Petrine authority is part of the essence of the Church from its birth (pentecost) to is gathering with Christ in the clouds, and is directly designed by Christ himself. From this, every Papal claim is thereby justified.

You're right that there doesn't need to be an explicit statement, but rather an explicit demonstration. Or at the very least, a well reasoned one. If we assume that everything you just typed is true, does that mean you accept the supremacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Antioch? Seeing as how he sits on the chair of Peter, and is his successor in the same way the Roman Bishop is, in that Peter founded the Antiochian See just as he founded the Roman one?
After al "what part is more vital to the Churches throughout the world than Antioch?  Only let Antioch be restored to harmony, and nothing will stand in the way of her supplying, as a healthy head, soundness to all the body."-Met. St. Basil to Pope St. Athanasius.
 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf208.ix.lxvii.html

And don't forget the Church of Jerusalem  “the Mother of the Christian name, from which no one dares to separate.” (PL 63, 503) This is important to keep in mind, say during the monothelite controversy under the patriarch of Jersualem St. Sophronius  as opposed to Pope Honorius of Rome.
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« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2014, 09:05:01 AM »

No worries, I took it in college. If you would like me address it, I will. First, you have far too many postulates. Second, you have a conclusion in the middle of the theorem. Conclusions always go at the end. Third, your conclusion cannot be derived from the stated postulates. Fourth, you affirmed the consequent which is a logical fallacy.

Now, to look at it from a different perspective. Here is your argument.
According to Philip:
P1. Peter was the foundation of the Catholic Church.
P2. The Church is infallible
Conclusion: Therefore, as the foundation of the Church, Peter is also infallible

You then have a second argument that states:
C1. Per prior proof, Peter is infallible
P2. Fallibility cannot come from infallibility
P3. Bishop of Rome comes from Peter
Conclusion: Therefore, all Bishops of Rome are infallible

Let us first examine the first argument. It cannot be argued that because the set is infallible that a subset cannot be fallible.  Indeed, if this were the case, then every person in the Church could claim infallibility. Second, Philip never introduces infallibility into the discussion, so we cannot, from Philip, derive that he even believes in the infallibility of the Church. Therefore we have an invalid postulate and a logical fallacy.

Now, to examine the second argument which falls first on the fact that C1 was not proved.  Second, we cannot demonstrate that fallibility cannot come from infallibility and considering the fact that humanity came from God, it is evident that falliblity can come from infallibility. We also have an additional problem that it cannot be demonstrated that the Bishop of Rome is the sole descendant of Peter, indeed, it could be argued that anyone who was ordained or followed Peter would have an equal claim to infallibility.

Those are my initial thoughts on the logical problems surrounding your theory.


Nothing substantial has been said here. In fact you've ignored some major parts:

1) Philip says that Peter continues to AND EVER "lives" and "judges" (preside) in his successors, of which, at the time, was in Celestine of Rome. There seems to be an implication that this Petrine activity is ongoing.

2) The whole Church is infallible. Would you agree?

3) If Peter is the foundation of the Church, how could the foundation be subject to heresy or apostacy ?

4) You presume that the "set" (Church) can be "infallible" while a "subset" (Peter) is fallible. But that's the issue, Peter is not just a "subset" but is the source of the episcopate, as Cyprian says, the very foundation of the whole Catholic Church. The Pillar is not a subset of the whole. If the pillar is cracked and separated, the set is finished.
I removed some of the convo to make it more manageable.
1. There is no dispute as to ongoing Petrine activity, but we must recognize what Petrine activity we are talking about. See point 4 below.
2. I believe the Church is infallible, but you have to demonstrate that Philip the Presbyter believed that. Perhaps he did, but he didn't address it, therefore, it cannot be accepted as a postulate and it would need to be proved before being stated as fact.
3. We are not discussing heresy or apostacy, we are talking about fallibility. You are demonstrating the fallacy of equivocation. Error =/= heresy or apostacy.
4. Christ is the source of the episcopate because He ordained Peter. Peter is the head of the Apostles, not the origin. Philip does not claim that Peter is the source. Philip also emphasizes that the Popes have kept and are keeping intact the apostolic doctrine. He recognizes that it is the apostolic doctrine which is truth, which is different than claiming Papal proclamation is truth. Apostolic doctrine is the measuring stick, not the Pope. Also note that while Peter was proclaimed pillar and foundation, Philip does not say that that aspect "lives and judges in his successors", he stated that the "power of loosing and binding sins lives and judges in his successors".

There are certainly ecclesiological concepts that can be gleaned from Philip the Presbyter, but you are reading his statement through the lens of modern day Catholicism and using later assumptions to interpret his writings.  If you look at what he writes at face value, you will see Philip's postulates.

1. St. Peter is considered foundational to the Church and the teachings of the Church and is the Head Apostle. There is no mention of this being transferable to any other individual.
2. St. Peter was granted the power to loose and bind sins. This power has also been transferred to his successors.
3. At the point at which Philip was speaking, the Popes had always been faithful to the teachings of apostolic doctrine.

Now, if you you beleive that infallibility of the Pope can be derived from these postulates, I invite you to demonstrate that, but for the life of me, I cannot see how that would be possible.
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« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2014, 10:55:17 AM »



I think you are missing the relationship of the Church's life with her foundation. The Church must always have her foundation, and that can never be moved or cracked, otherwise the Church falls as well. Part of the Church standing strong requires her to be infallible in faith/morals (the doctrine of christ - Matt 28), and to fall into heresy would be to fall apart completely. Therefore, the foundation of the Church, since it provides the Church with the strength to stand, must be (a) source of infallibility (not denying other, more divine sources).

And philip here is saying that Peter is the foundation of the Church. But the inevitable question arises. If Peter is the foundation of the Church, and Peter has been martyred. Has the Church fallen? The answer is no, because Peter continues to live in his successors, which are not, particularly from Philip, a general notion of all who enter the episcopate, but specifically the bishops of Rome.

Now, Peter living in His See, which is none other than Rome (par exellence, no denial of petrinias in alexandria/antioch), is rather poetic. But that doesn't strip it of its entire meaning, as if its just superfluous. What is mean, I think, is that Peter's "role" of being the foundation to the Church continues in the successors.

This is one way of reading Philip, and I would say it would be too much had not the surrounding Pope's and bishops taught the same.
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« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2014, 11:10:15 AM »



I think you are missing the relationship of the Church's life with her foundation. The Church must always have her foundation, and that can never be moved or cracked, otherwise the Church falls as well. Part of the Church standing strong requires her to be infallible in faith/morals (the doctrine of christ - Matt 28), and to fall into heresy would be to fall apart completely. Therefore, the foundation of the Church, since it provides the Church with the strength to stand, must be (a) source of infallibility (not denying other, more divine sources).
The Church has her foundation. Christ is the eternal foundation of the Church. (1 Cor 3:11) The Church is infallible because of Christ, not because of St. Peter.  It is helpful not to read too literally into the word foundation. Scripture alternately refers to Christ, to the Apostles, to St. Peter specifically and to the prophets all as the foundation of the Church. It should come as no suprise that infallibility comes from God, not from any man.

Quote
And philip here is saying that Peter is the foundation of the Church. But the inevitable question arises. If Peter is the foundation of the Church, and Peter has been martyred. Has the Church fallen? The answer is no, because Peter continues to live in his successors, which are not, particularly from Philip, a general notion of all who enter the episcopate, but specifically the bishops of Rome.
You are using a sleight of hand on the word "foundation". In the first use, Philip is using it as a descriptor (St. Peter is the foundation because he was foundational in the establishing of the Church), in the second use, you are using it as a synonym for the word "basis" (St. Peter is not the basis of the Church, that would be Christ)

Quote
Now, Peter living in His See, which is none other than Rome (par exellence, no denial of petrinias in alexandria/antioch), is rather poetic. But that doesn't strip it of its entire meaning, as if its just superfluous. What is mean, I think, is that Peter's "role" of being the foundation to the Church continues in the successors.

This is one way of reading Philip, and I would say it would be too much had not the surrounding Pope's and bishops taught the same.
That might be what you think, but that is not what Philip says. He never states that St. Peters role of being the foundation (or foundational) of the Church continues to the successors. No one is stripping any meaning, but you seem to be reading into the text that which is not there.
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« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2014, 11:19:39 AM »

EY, the Petrine foundation can and still does exist without a Supreme Pontiff if the chair of Peter is shared by each and every bishop. The link between Peter and a personal successor in Rome is asserted but not demonstrated. The personal successor doesn't seem necessary if the Petrine chair is the common possession of the whole episcopate, and Rome's preeminence is most easily explained by its status as the capital, the martyrdom of St Peter AND St Paul, and that it remained steadfastly orthodox for a long time - not because of some unique charism of its bishop.
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« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2014, 01:39:39 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to provide an excerpt from the Council of Ephesus to see if we could discuss how its possible that there is taught within it the seed of Papal infallibility:

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (ἔξαρχος) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (θεμέλιος) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc


1) Peter is the head, pillar, and foundation of the Church Catholic
2) Pillars, Heads, and Foundations never cease existing for the structure, lest the structure fall
3) The bishops of Rome hold "Peter's place" in his succession
4) Therefore, the Pope in Rome is the infallible supreme head of the whole Church Catholic in terms of faith/morals


How can we avoid seeing this implicated from the text?

Not how the fathers saw. The interpretations of Christ and the faith being the Rock predomine over Peter being the Rock in the patristic consensus.
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« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2014, 03:27:13 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to provide an excerpt from the Council of Ephesus to see if we could discuss how its possible that there is taught within it the seed of Papal infallibility:

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (ἔξαρχος) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (θεμέλιος) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc


1) Peter is the head, pillar, and foundation of the Church Catholic
2) Pillars, Heads, and Foundations never cease existing for the structure, lest the structure fall
3) The bishops of Rome hold "Peter's place" in his succession
4) Therefore, the Pope in Rome is the infallible supreme head of the whole Church Catholic in terms of faith/morals


How can we avoid seeing this implicated from the text?

Not how the fathers saw. The interpretations of Christ and the faith being the Rock predomine over Peter being the Rock in the patristic consensus.

That's completely false.

The patristic understanding is that the Rock is Jesus Christ, the gospel, Peter's faith, and Peter himself. For goodness sake, his name was changed to Peter. they referred to him as "the Rock". When they were trying to get his attention, they called him "the Rock". And this was the case until he died. His very grave read the inscription "Peter is in here", which means, "the rock is here". And then you have a consensus building that the see of Rome is the chair of Peter, which was indestructible.

See the link I gave.
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« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2014, 03:34:15 PM »

The successors to Peter are no more the Rocks of the Church than the successors to Warren Buffett are the Oracles of Omaha.
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« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2014, 03:37:04 PM »

The successors to Peter are no more the Rocks of the Church than the successors to Warren Buffett are the Oracles of Omaha.

But if Jesus changed Warren's name...
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« Reply #102 on: August 26, 2014, 03:41:41 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.
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« Reply #103 on: August 26, 2014, 03:43:02 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.

Now you're starting to get it.
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« Reply #104 on: August 26, 2014, 03:47:10 PM »

Peter Odoran,


At the end of the day, this is just a hand-wave, and it is not an actual interaction with the data presented. Because of this reason, your participation has been useless. It you wish to participate, please exchange ideas that are directly related to the subject at hand.
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« Reply #105 on: August 26, 2014, 03:49:35 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.

Let's be clear. "I" do not "assume". In fact, I am seriously inquiring Orthodoxy. However, as a Catholic, I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.

Seeker or teacher? 
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« Reply #106 on: August 26, 2014, 03:54:30 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this scepticism of the Latin Church's claims. It is quote striking.
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« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to provide an excerpt from the Council of Ephesus to see if we could discuss how its possible that there is taught within it the seed of Papal infallibility:

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (ἔξαρχος) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (θεμέλιος) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc


1) Peter is the head, pillar, and foundation of the Church Catholic
2) Pillars, Heads, and Foundations never cease existing for the structure, lest the structure fall
3) The bishops of Rome hold "Peter's place" in his succession
4) Therefore, the Pope in Rome is the infallible supreme head of the whole Church Catholic in terms of faith/morals


How can we avoid seeing this implicated from the text?

Not how the fathers saw. The interpretations of Christ and the faith being the Rock predomine over Peter being the Rock in the patristic consensus.

That's completely false.

The patristic understanding is that the Rock is Jesus Christ, the gospel, Peter's faith, and Peter himself. For goodness sake, his name was changed to Peter. they referred to him as "the Rock". When they were trying to get his attention, they called him "the Rock". And this was the case until he died. His very grave read the inscription "Peter is in here", which means, "the rock is here". And then you have a consensus building that the see of Rome is the chair of Peter, which was indestructible.

See the link I gave.

"When they were trying to get his attention, they call him 'the Rock.' " To me this reads as a poignant argument for your opposition. Simon being "withstood ... to the face," as St. Paul recounts, with his fellow bishops calling him "the Rock," reminding him of a duty too large for one mortal man.
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« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2014, 04:00:12 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.

Let's be clear. "I" do not "assume". In fact, I am seriously inquiring Orthodoxy. However, as a Catholic, I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.

Seeker or teacher? 

A seeker still knows his ABC's. Is that a shock ? I got smart remarks from the get go.
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« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.

Let's be clear. "I" do not "assume". In fact, I am seriously inquiring Orthodoxy. However, as a Catholic, I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.

Seeker or teacher? 

A seeker still knows his ABC's. Is that a shock ? I got smart remarks from the get go.

You did, but not in the way you think.  Only after a while did you get the ones you think you got. 
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« Reply #110 on: August 26, 2014, 04:23:06 PM »



1) Original Sin (this was not unanimous or settled until Augustine/Pelagius)
You mean Carthagenian bishops who on same council rejected Pope's authority over them?

2) Infant Baptism (adult baptism was widely practiced, tertullian even denied infant baptism)
Which Pope solved issue?

3) The Canon of the NT (Many did not believe some of the books that we have now were inspired)
Roman Pope Who defined it? It was Alexandrine Pope though.

4) Homo-ousios- The equality of the Son with the Father
Settled by two Councils, and Fatehrs of one were Out of Communion with Roman Pontiff while they were in session.


5) The two wills of Christ

There is certain Roman Pope who taught about single will of Christ.
6) That post-baptismal sin can be forgiven

7) Communion in one kind
Ancient XIII century practice... but when we separated it was two kinds only.
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« Reply #111 on: August 26, 2014, 04:29:26 PM »



1) Original Sin (this was not unanimous or settled until Augustine/Pelagius)
You mean Carthagenian bishops who on same council rejected Pope's authority over them?

2) Infant Baptism (adult baptism was widely practiced, tertullian even denied infant baptism)
Which Pope solved issue?

3) The Canon of the NT (Many did not believe some of the books that we have now were inspired)
Roman Pope Who defined it? It was Alexandrine Pope though.

4) Homo-ousios- The equality of the Son with the Father
Settled by two Councils, and Fatehrs of one were Out of Communion with Roman Pontiff while they were in session.


5) The two wills of Christ

There is certain Roman Pope who taught about single will of Christ.
6) That post-baptismal sin can be forgiven

7) Communion in one kind
Ancient XIII century practice... but when we separated it was two kinds only.

Thank you for your comments.

Would you say that all doctrine held by the Orthodox have not undergone development?
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« Reply #112 on: August 26, 2014, 04:57:13 PM »

In sense of Faith none. But I am impartial. I graduated at Eastern Orthodox Seminary, I am teaching EO Religious Education classes, and I am on lis for ordination...
In sense of philosophical definitions and grammar, Orthodox Theology did develop.
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« Reply #113 on: August 26, 2014, 05:01:36 PM »

I am amazed at the ignorance of the early Church's understanding of all of this. It is quote striking.

Now you're starting to get it.
Peter Odoran,

At the end of the day, this is just a hand-wave, and it is not an actual interaction with the data presented. Because of this reason, your participation has been useless. It you wish to participate, please exchange ideas that are directly related to the subject at hand.

That's fair.
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« Reply #114 on: August 26, 2014, 05:18:26 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to provide an excerpt from the Council of Ephesus to see if we could discuss how its possible that there is taught within it the seed of Papal infallibility:

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (ἔξαρχος) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (θεμέλιος) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc


1) Peter is the head, pillar, and foundation of the Church Catholic
2) Pillars, Heads, and Foundations never cease existing for the structure, lest the structure fall
3) The bishops of Rome hold "Peter's place" in his succession
4) Therefore, the Pope in Rome is the infallible supreme head of the whole Church Catholic in terms of faith/morals


How can we avoid seeing this implicated from the text?

Not how the fathers saw. The interpretations of Christ and the faith being the Rock predomine over Peter being the Rock in the patristic consensus.

That's completely false.

The patristic understanding is that the Rock is Jesus Christ, the gospel, Peter's faith, and Peter himself. For goodness sake, his name was changed to Peter. they referred to him as "the Rock". When they were trying to get his attention, they called him "the Rock". And this was the case until he died. His very grave read the inscription "Peter is in here", which means, "the rock is here". And then you have a consensus building that the see of Rome is the chair of Peter, which was indestructible.

See the link I gave.

The interpretation of Peter as the rock is a valid one in Orthodoxy. For instance, St. Gregory Palamas gives such an interpretation and no one can accuse him of being a Papist. Unfortunately, some Orthodox, in their polemics against Rome, tend to read 20th century propaganda more than they read the Fathers. I guess the question is whether the Pope of Rome is the successor of Peter or whether all bishops are. Orthodox Christians take the latter view.
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« Reply #115 on: August 26, 2014, 08:47:32 PM »

If the bishop of Rome is really the unique successor of Peter, how is this succession passed on, since popes do not choose their successors or even pass their office on to them?
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« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2014, 12:52:25 AM »

I must be untangled with the very argumentation which brought me to see the truth in Roman Catholicism.


Why?


"Arguments" can bring something to your attention, but you aren't going to be "untangled" by sheer force of rhetoric or fancy words.   

The Holy Spirit "untangles" us.

When you attend a Roman Catholic Mass, and immerse yourself in the lives of it's Saints and pray the prayers,  where do you find yourself?
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« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2014, 02:04:56 AM »

I think I have a feeling for what may underlie EY's concern here. It's not easy to do something that one has long believed is a mortal sin.
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« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2014, 09:17:03 AM »

I think I have a feeling for what may underlie EY's concern here. It's not easy to do something that one has long believed is a mortal sin.

I sympathize.

Going into Schism is nothing to take lightly, whether you are going to the right side or not.
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« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2014, 02:43:48 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to provide an excerpt from the Council of Ephesus to see if we could discuss how its possible that there is taught within it the seed of Papal infallibility:

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (ἔξαρχος) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (θεμέλιος) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Cœlestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith. For they both have kept and are now keeping intact the apostolic doctrine handed down to them from their most pious and humane grandfathers and fathers of holy memory down to the present time, etc


1) Peter is the head, pillar, and foundation of the Church Catholic
2) Pillars, Heads, and Foundations never cease existing for the structure, lest the structure fall
3) The bishops of Rome hold "Peter's place" in his succession
4) Therefore, the Pope in Rome is the infallible supreme head of the whole Church Catholic in terms of faith/morals


How can we avoid seeing this implicated from the text?

Not how the fathers saw. The interpretations of Christ and the faith being the Rock predomine over Peter being the Rock in the patristic consensus.

That's completely false.

The patristic understanding is that the Rock is Jesus Christ, the gospel, Peter's faith, and Peter himself. For goodness sake, his name was changed to Peter. they referred to him as "the Rock". When they were trying to get his attention, they called him "the Rock". And this was the case until he died. His very grave read the inscription "Peter is in here", which means, "the rock is here". And then you have a consensus building that the see of Rome is the chair of Peter, which was indestructible.

See the link I gave.

More ascribed it to Christ and the faith than Peter. That is completely true..

The OP is full of non-sequitur.
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« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »

Quote
they called him "the Rock"
Evidently, you're not smelling what the Rock is cooking........

PP
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« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2014, 05:21:44 PM »

You know how Catholic/Orthodox apologists try to respond to Evangelical/Protestants when Protestants try and sell the idea that Christ founded the Christian church with the Apostles and earliest Christians, but that soon thereafter, the whole Church fell into heresy, and the Catholics/Orthodox will respond by saying that Christ's church can never be overcome by the gates of hades, nor can she cease to be visibly one holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Well, I feel like the Catholic Church has a stronger argument historically, since there is so much of the Church, both in East and West, by the 5th/6th century, that were buying into a supremacy in Rome as the first See and under which all councils needed ratification. How can the Church fall into such great heresy from the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14,th century etc,etc,etc. I mean the early Popes were quite literal in applying the Matt 16 passage to the specific chair of Peter in Rome.

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« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2014, 05:23:42 PM »

Whatever floats your ark.  Smiley
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« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2014, 05:33:48 PM »

Yeah, I haven't seen a speckle of evidence to support Rome. I'll keep looking, since I have a lot of time, but I am still not convinced.
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« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2014, 05:44:10 PM »

You know how Catholic/Orthodox apologists try to respond to Evangelical/Protestants when Protestants try and sell the idea that Christ founded the Christian church with the Apostles and earliest Christians, but that soon thereafter, the whole Church fell into heresy, and the Catholics/Orthodox will respond by saying that Christ's church can never be overcome by the gates of hades, nor can she cease to be visibly one holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Well, I feel like the Catholic Church has a stronger argument historically, since there is so much of the Church, both in East and West, by the 5th/6th century, that were buying into a supremacy in Rome as the first See and under which all councils needed ratification. How can the Church fall into such great heresy from the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14,th century etc,etc,etc. I mean the early Popes were quite literal in applying the Matt 16 passage to the specific chair of Peter in Rome.



No. Chair of Peter = Bishop "Quite literal" is a long stretch, maybe 'vaguely' but not "quite literal".

As to the conciliar claim, it's a role called "first among equals" nothing more, nothing infallible.
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« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2014, 06:26:48 PM »

Quote
Well, I feel like the Catholic Church has a stronger argument historically, since there is so much of the Church, both in East and West, by the 5th/6th century, that were buying into a supremacy in Rome
The reason why the Church supported Rome's primacy, not supremacy, is because it was the rock of Orthodoxy, not because of some special office the Pope had (see the 4th council). The more and more Rome fell into heresy, the more and more the East distanced herself from that rotting twig.

PP
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« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2014, 08:11:09 PM »



Well, I feel like the Catholic Church has a stronger argument historically, since there is so much of the Church, both in East and West, by the 5th/6th century, that were buying into a supremacy in Rome as the first See and under which all councils needed ratification. How can the Church fall into such great heresy from the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14,th century etc,etc,etc. I mean the early Popes were quite literal in applying the Matt 16 passage to the specific chair of Peter in Rome.



The Church as a whole never fell into heresy.   There were various Sees which struggled with heresy over the Centuries, but The Church has endured.  We are still here today.

You keep asserting that the Church Fathers bought into Papal Supremacy, but this is not true at all.   Old Rome was special because it was the capital of the Empire, and because St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred there.   Their blood consecrated that ground, as well as all the martyrs.   That is pretty darn special in itself.

We differentiate between Primacy and Supremacy.   We acknowledge the reality of the former but deny the latter.   If you want to know what this Primacy would look like, see my Patriarch, +HAH Bartholomew or to use a Roman Catholic example, the Dean of the College of Cardinals.

Nobody is denying that Old Rome was revered, but this was because of her steadfast Orthodoxy, not because it was Roman Pope.   St. Peter founded multiple Sees, and they all trace their lineage from St. Peter.   To assert that a particular See has some kind of special power because of it's founder is bizarre from the Orthodox POV.

Yes, there were Popes who attempted to assert some kind of Papal perogatives outside of their own territory.   These Popes were either ignored or gently rebuked by they brother bishops.   There were some instances where other Sees sent requests to Rome to settle a dispute.   This is fully in keeping with the Primacy, as the EP today has the function of being a facilitator to settle disputes or issues between Sees.


I understand your difficulty.   The whole Latin System is built on the authority and character of the Pope.   If his claims are false, the whole thing collapses like a house of cards....what you are left with is Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #127 on: August 28, 2014, 08:33:34 AM »

The early Church, including Cyprian & Ambrose, believed that the see of Rome was the source of the sacerdotal ministry. It is there that the chair of Peter originated, since the prince of the Apostles sat and taught in Rome. Now, there is no doubt that Cyprian/Ambrose believed that the episcopal seat @ Rome was the source of communion with Christ, the question is whether they believed that "source" to be a priority of time or a perpetual fixed point of communion. In other words, the question would be whether they understood Rome to be the "source" of the episcopal ministry just as a bullet is sourced from the chamber of a gun, but does not remain within the chamber necessarily, since it is ejected OR that they understood the communion to be always sourced in Rome.
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« Reply #128 on: August 28, 2014, 09:05:54 AM »

The early Church, including Cyprian & Ambrose, believed that the see of Rome was the source of the sacerdotal ministry. It is there that the chair of Peter originated, since the prince of the Apostles sat and taught in Rome. Now, there is no doubt that Cyprian/Ambrose believed that the episcopal seat @ Rome was the source of communion with Christ, the question is whether they believed that "source" to be a priority of time or a perpetual fixed point of communion. In other words, the question would be whether they understood Rome to be the "source" of the episcopal ministry just as a bullet is sourced from the chamber of a gun, but does not remain within the chamber necessarily, since it is ejected OR that they understood the communion to be always sourced in Rome.

(a) Cyprian and Ambrose did not believe any such thing. Context is important, when the Chair of Peter is mentioned, the Episcopate is mentioned a few lines down.

(b) There is surely a doubt there is the case. You cannot just claim that "x believes y" unless you can PROVE IT. I'm sorry, but I'm tired and irritable. Let's see the quotes and we'll see what they really say. People thought that Al Gore said he invented the internet by the same logic you're displaying here.

(c) No. The question is whether Cyprian and Ambrose saw Rome EXCLUSIVELY as the ONLY legitimate center of communion. That's the issue. Not about where Rome happens to be situated in any given location and time period. This is extreme Romanism. It seems that everything you even think about in relation to the Fathers is always centered on Rome. It cannot possibly mean anything else but Rome.
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« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2014, 09:32:04 AM »

The early Church, including Cyprian & Ambrose, believed that the see of Rome was the source of the sacerdotal ministry.

No. Cyprian did not, neither did Church
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« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2014, 10:31:29 AM »

Seems pretty clear to me. They understood a Peter principle in all bishops, but a source in Rome.


-St. Ambrose of Milan
16- "[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
-St. Ambrose of Milan
17- "It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).
-St. Ambrose of Milan
18 - From this Church [of Rome] the rights of venerable communion flow unto all. (St. Ambrose of Milan, AD 385)
-St. Ambrose of Milan
19- "We recognize in the letter of your holiness [Pope Siricius] the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and with pious care you guard Christ’s sheepfold [John 10:7ff], you that are worthy to have the Lord’s sheep hear and follow you" (Synodal Letter to Pope Siricius [A.D. 389]).
- Synod of Ambrose
20- "At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church."
Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms,43:40(AD 397),in GILES,145
- St. Ambrose of Milan
21 - "But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church?"
Ambrose, The death of his brother Satyrus,1:47(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:168
- St. Ambrose of Milan
22 - "Your grace must be besought not to permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all (churches) the bonds of sacred communion."
Ambrose,To Emperor Gratian,Epistle 11:4(A.D. 381),in SPP,160
- Ambrose of Milan


-St. Cyprian of Carthage
111 - "With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Letters 59:14 [A.D. 253]).
-St. Cyprian of Carthage

112 - "There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).
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« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2014, 11:03:38 AM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.
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« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2014, 11:39:13 AM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
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Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2014, 11:43:11 AM »

Quote
Well, Cyprian is not infallible
I find it funny that RC's love quoting the saints to try and prove the Pope's claims, but when others do the same to disprove them, we hear, "Well, <insert here> isn't infallible." So very convenient.

PP
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« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2014, 12:21:21 PM »

Have you ever heard about reading into? You are reading into St. Cyprien's words something he did not believe... I think numerous times, we told you, that Cyprien did believe every bishop sits in chair of Peter, and despite he recognised primacy of Roman Church, he was adamant in refusing to recognise right of Supermacy of Roman see. You are six hundred times repeating something you know we disagree with... if you are trying to convince us in Roman Supermacy, sorry last 1000 years we did not hear any convincible argument.

Well, Cyprian is not infallible. And so we are here observing a principle that he himself belief. Regardless if he did not see that principle as making it a binding law upon him to submit to Rome in all things (as if evident), he still held to the principle that Rome was the source of the priesthood. Now why is it so wild that such a principle was just not fully lived out by Cyprian? After all, was he above correction? Absolutely not. In fact many believed he was wrong about the baptism of heretics. And so all I am saying is that here the Orthodox believe that each bishop is equal, whereas Rome has something distinct about it, namely, that it is the source of the episcopate. Now, some fathers saw in this a notion of infallibility, and others did not.
So the quotes that seem to be favorable to Papal infallibility are trustworthy, but the ones that clarify his position and demonstrate that he is not advocating Papal infallibility are not to be trusted?  Don't you realize how silly that sounds?  Huh
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Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 
Tags: Pope Honorius papal primacy Papal Infallibility 
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