Author Topic: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League  (Read 2377 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« on: August 18, 2014, 03:04:32 AM »
"I taught many wonderful young people during my years in the Ivy League -- bright, thoughtful, creative kids whom it was a pleasure to talk with and learn from. But most of them seemed content to color within the lines that their education had marked out for them. Very few were passionate about ideas. Very few saw college as part of a larger project of intellectual discovery and development. Everyone dressed as if they were ready to be interviewed at a moment’s notice.
....
So extreme are the admission standards now that kids who manage to get into elite colleges have, by definition, never experienced anything but success. The prospect of not being successful terrifies them, disorients them. The cost of falling short, even temporarily, becomes not merely practical, but existential. The result is a violent aversion to risk. You have no margin for error, so you avoid the possibility that you will ever make an error. Once, a student at Pomona told me that she’d love to have a chance to think about the things she’s studying, only she doesn’t have the time. I asked her if she had ever considered not trying to get an A in every class. She looked at me as if I had made an indecent suggestion.

There are exceptions, kids who insist, against all odds, on trying to get a real education. But their experience tends to make them feel like freaks. One student told me that a friend of hers had left Yale because she found the school 'stifling to the parts of yourself that you’d call a soul.' "
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 03:06:11 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline Didyma

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 10:04:21 AM »
Well, that sounds grueling.  There's also the fact that no amount of college education is probably worth that much money.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 10:13:49 AM »
Well, that sounds grueling.  There's also the fact that no amount of college education is probably worth that much money.

This. College education costing more than $5,000 to $10,000 a year probably isn't worth it. You'd be better off in a vocational school .
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 10:14:15 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 10:36:17 AM »
It's not a new thing that many people see even elite higher education as merely a stepping-stone to a career, rather than an opportunity to develop the mind for its own sake. In the early 20th-century, the Ivy League was primarily a set of finishing schools for rich people whose course in life was already set by their social background. The difference now is that our elite has to work to preserve their status; our society is more meritocratic than ever (which is completely compatible with the declining social mobility we are also seeing, but that's another discussion).

Also, it's not new that a liberal education has no intrinsic market value. College used to be restricted mostly to privileged scions of old money families because a university education was considered part of a gentleman's training, a gentleman being the sort of person who could afford the leisure time to investigate the arts and philosophy, rather than needing to spend every waking hour struggling to earn a living. Again, the main difference now is that even the privileged face a lifetime of hard work in order to stay at the top, so they have to maintain a business-like attitude towards their future even while trying to develop their intellect.

English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of. While I believe that it is the mark of truly civilized nations to be able to support a few talented scholars in those kinds of fields, I have no illusions that they will ever be available to more than a small handful of the population. Trying to expand elite education to a larger portion of society is only going to debase it.

Offline jah777

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 10:56:31 AM »
I don' t think the problem is with Ivy League schools but the traditional American educational system which produces students that are more concerned with grades and standards than with developing a genuine love of learning.  Teachers are often kept in straight jackets and given very little flexibility in designing the curricula and very little compensation/recognition for excelling.  Teachers are hired and fired based on standardized test results and so teachers focus on standardized test results.  Restricting the teacher to pre-determined standardized curricula and offering poor compensation hinders teachers from developing a genuine love of teaching and are therefore unable to impart to their students a genuine love of learning.  This is a very large systemic and societal problem that cannot be blamed on Ivy League schools.   

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 11:42:59 AM »
I don' t think the problem is with Ivy League schools but the traditional American educational system which produces students that are more concerned with grades and standards than with developing a genuine love of learning.  Teachers are often kept in straight jackets and given very little flexibility in designing the curricula and very little compensation/recognition for excelling.  Teachers are hired and fired based on standardized test results and so teachers focus on standardized test results.  Restricting the teacher to pre-determined standardized curricula and offering poor compensation hinders teachers from developing a genuine love of teaching and are therefore unable to impart to their students a genuine love of learning.  This is a very large systemic and societal problem that cannot be blamed on Ivy League schools.   

If we are talking about universal or public education, I think this is because many people just aren't cut out for academic learning at all, and yet we insist on trying to force everyone to reach the same standards. We need to adopt a system with academic and non-academic or vocational tracks so that we only spend resources teaching purely academic subjects to the academically gifted, while giving the others a chance to acquire practical vocational skills early on without wasting time and incurring debt in college.

If we are talking about elite education, the problem that Deresiewicz describes is simply the result of increased meritocracy: today's students are insecure overachievers because life is increasingly competitive even for those at the top. This will not change unless and until we return to a more old-fashioned kind of society where the elite who can afford to go to elite colleges are born into wealth and don't need to work to earn it throughout their lives. I personally like the idea that our society is now more meritocratic and that our upper class is earning its privilege, but this is the price they pay for it. The charming old days when you paid little or no tuition and could relax about grades and spend your time smoking pot and joining anti-war protests are over.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 11:59:17 AM »
The charming old days when you paid little or no tuition and could relax about grades and spend your time smoking pot and joining anti-war protests are over.

The best part of it is that those who are today making the rules ever stricter were those who spent a decade 'studying', smoking pot and protesting the Man. It's difficult not to laugh at them.

I personally like the idea that our society is now more meritocratic and that our upper class is earning its privilege, but this is the price they pay for it. The charming old days when you paid little or no tuition and could relax about grades and spend your time smoking pot and joining anti-war protests are over.

Perhaps, but along with this development the upper class social codes died off. The landed gentry and the urban patricians had a sense of class, their manners were refined and they had a sense of noblesse oblige. Those parvenus don't know how to behave or what to do with their money. More often than not they end with their noses in the cocaine and their neck in a noose.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 12:00:21 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 12:50:34 PM »
The best part of it is that those who are today making the rules ever stricter were those who spent a decade 'studying', smoking pot and protesting the Man. It's difficult not to laugh at them.

I don't think it's the ultimate fault of the current university administrators who were educated in the easy-going 1960s. Basically, it's about globalization and the pressure of the economy. The upper class in the US is now exposed to competition with the upper class in other countries: China, Japan, Europe, etc. Students are responding to increasing competition by caring more about their grades, which employers pay attention to, and less to "love of learning", which employers don't give a crap about.

Perhaps, but along with this development the upper class social codes died off. The landed gentry and the urban patricians had a sense of class, their manners were refined and they had a sense of noblesse oblige. Those parvenus don't know how to behave or what to do with their money. More often than not they end with their noses in the cocaine and their neck in a noose.

Indeed you have a point. As I was writing that last bit, I did start to yearn for the days when a small leisured elite could kick back and contemplate the finer things of life and the mind without constantly fretting about keeping their jobs and retirement accounts. But we should always remember that this kind of life was never available to the vast majority of people. The idea that this is all the fault of our education system is wishful thinking of the worst sort.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 03:39:48 PM »
Well, that sounds grueling.  There's also the fact that no amount of college education is probably worth that much money.

This. College education costing more than $5,000 to $10,000 a year probably isn't worth it. You'd be better off in a vocational school .

However...this does not work as a plan when even quite a few secretarial or entry level jobs require a Bachelors Degree now.

The 'equal opportunities for everyone' has been turned into 'send everyone to college, no matter how qualified they are, its a right!'

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 04:12:44 PM »
Well, that sounds grueling.  There's also the fact that no amount of college education is probably worth that much money.

This. College education costing more than $5,000 to $10,000 a year probably isn't worth it. You'd be better off in a vocational school .

However...this does not work as a plan when even quite a few secretarial or entry level jobs require a Bachelors Degree now.

The 'equal opportunities for everyone' has been turned into 'send everyone to college, no matter how qualified they are, its a right!'



This is probably because college graduates have about the same skills now that high-school graduates had a generation ago, hence the credential inflation. I think Cyrillic is promoting an overhaul of our educational system where we stop pretending that everyone is capable of becoming Einstein if they just "work hard enough" or if we can just "fix the schools". It's not because people are lazy or because of bad schools; it's because talent is not distributed evenly throughout the population, while the idiots in charge of our education policy refuse to acknowledge this fact and instead try to push everyone to go to college.

Instead, we should return to higher academic standards for college entry, and those who don't meet those standards should seek alternative forms of education, like vocational training. One result will be to lower demand for college, which will drive down tuition fees. I think the rise of cheap online education should also help this process by busting the higher ed racket.

In the meantime, though, we do indeed live in a stupid world where you have to get a meaningless degree to do the same job that kids fresh out of high school used to do.

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 04:15:08 PM »
Solving poverty will lead to betting thinking and more learning

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 04:21:04 PM »
Well, that sounds grueling.  There's also the fact that no amount of college education is probably worth that much money.

This. College education costing more than $5,000 to $10,000 a year probably isn't worth it. You'd be better off in a vocational school .

However...this does not work as a plan when even quite a few secretarial or entry level jobs require a Bachelors Degree now.

The 'equal opportunities for everyone' has been turned into 'send everyone to college, no matter how qualified they are, its a right!'



This is probably because college graduates have about the same skills now that high-school graduates had a generation ago, hence the credential inflation. I think Cyrillic is promoting an overhaul of our educational system where we stop pretending that everyone is capable of becoming Einstein if they just "work hard enough" or if we can just "fix the schools". It's not because people are lazy or because of bad schools; it's because talent is not distributed evenly throughout the population, while the idiots in charge of our education policy refuse to acknowledge this fact and instead try to push everyone to go to college.

Instead, we should return to higher academic standards for college entry, and those who don't meet those standards should seek alternative forms of education, like vocational training. One result will be to lower demand for college, which will drive down tuition fees. I think the rise of cheap online education should also help this process by busting the higher ed racket.

In the meantime, though, we do indeed live in a stupid world where you have to get a meaningless degree to do the same job that kids fresh out of high school used to do.

Indeed, although I'm not a fan of online education.

Solving poverty will lead to betting thinking and more learning

The latter will lead to the conclusion that the former is impossible.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 04:21:32 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 04:36:31 PM »
Online education is definitely inferior, but I think for many people it will be good enough for their particular career choices.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 04:50:15 PM »
Online education is definitely inferior, but I think for many people it will be good enough for their particular career choices.

Perhaps, I'm not so sure. People will just skip large parts of the lecture or binge watch the lectures the day before the test. Asking questions is more difficult outside of a classroom setting.

University should probably be less about grades and more about research and writing articles. This is more useful to the student and to the future employer, but it is less measurable.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 04:51:17 PM »
Online education is definitely inferior, but I think for many people it will be good enough for their particular career choices.


but not until the workplace accepts them as 'good enough' for those choices...and right now, bzzzzz  it doesn't.

alas it is the backlash from years of 'the college dream' propaganda...
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 04:56:15 PM »
In my part of the world high school is 'graded'. At the end of your time at elementary school you have to take a test, and this determines to which 'grade' you're allowed to go. With a low score you go to an high school that prepares you for a lower vocational education, such as an education to become a construction worker or abaker. With a very high score you're allowed to go to a high school that prepares you for university. There are five or six grades in all. If you do well in one grade you can move to the next grade, if you so wish. Only those in the top grade are allowed to go to go to the university. An excellent system, I think. This makes sure that lots of stupid people don't get into university, although some still slip through the cracks.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 04:59:50 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline JamesR

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 05:15:22 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2014, 05:21:26 PM »
In my part of the world high school is 'graded'. At the end of your time at elementary school you have to take a test, and this determines to which 'grade' you're allowed to go. With a low score you go to an high school that prepares you for a lower vocational education, such as an education to become a construction worker or abaker. With a very high score you're allowed to go to a high school that prepares you for university. There are five or six grades in all. If you do well in one grade you can move to the next grade, if you so wish. Only those in the top grade are allowed to go to go to the university. An excellent system, I think. This makes sure that lots of stupid people don't get into university, although some still slip through the cracks.

This seems far more sensible. Of course, even in our system selectiveness wins in the end, but it has to be expressed indirectly, so that employers know that graduating with a 4.0 in History from Harvard is worth much more than the same GPA and the same degree from a lesser university, but on paper they look the same. But those at the lesser universities are still wasting time and money earning a degree that doesn't really benefit them, feeding the higher ed cartel but bleeding resources from the country. It sounds like in the Dutch system the non-academics are actually acquiring useful skills that suit their talents, so it's a good investment of time for them and of money for the government (which I assume is paying for most or all of their training).

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2014, 05:25:33 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

I certainly don't want to say you shouldn't do what you want with your life, including choosing your degree. If you genuinely have a passion for your subject, you should pursue it. I'm envisioning instead young men and women who aren't really motivated or suited to academic study but feel the need to pursue it to get the right qualification.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2014, 05:28:42 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;)

"All art" said Oscar Wilde "is quite useless." He meant it to be a compliment. That something is useless doesn't mean that something isn't important; quite the contrary.

English literature isn't too bad. You could always be a teacher or something that only requires a degree. You'll never be able to afford a lambourghini, but you could easily have a comfortable life, doing what you like best.

English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

I certainly don't want to say you shouldn't do what you want with your life, including choosing your degree. If you genuinely have a passion for your subject, you should pursue it. I'm envisioning instead young men and women who aren't really motivated or suited to academic study but feel the need to pursue it to get the right qualification.

You're a graduate in linguistics, right? That isn't the best paying, or most easily employable, degree either.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:30:17 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 05:44:36 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;)

"All art" said Oscar Wilde "is quite useless." He meant it to be a compliment. That something is useless doesn't mean that something isn't important; quite the contrary.

English literature isn't too bad. You could always be a teacher or something that only requires a degree. You'll never be able to afford a lambourghini, but you could easily have a comfortable life, doing what you like best.

English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

I certainly don't want to say you shouldn't do what you want with your life, including choosing your degree. If you genuinely have a passion for your subject, you should pursue it. I'm envisioning instead young men and women who aren't really motivated or suited to academic study but feel the need to pursue it to get the right qualification.

You're a graduate in linguistics, right? That isn't the best paying, or most easily employable, degree either.

Quite. I'm speaking from experience. ;)

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 05:49:16 PM »
To continue your point about my graduate degree, my successful colleagues in linguistics are highly motivated about their field and love learning for its own sake. But my point is that this a rare quality and not something you can really teach. On the contrary, you're either the special kind of person who loves scholarship or scientific inquiry, or you're one of the vast majority of normal people who just want to make money to support themselves and their family with a modicum of comfort. Well, even academics want that, too, but they're happy to make a career out of poring over books, which would drive most other people crazy, and overall our society does not need lots of people in scholarship or science: one brilliant researcher is worth more than 10 poor ones.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

You will not think like that if your choice forces those whom you love into a meager existence. But, there are ways to live quite a good living even having English as a major (as I do), but it is easier if you are a native speaker.

For example, there are international schools. You would have to relocate but if you go to places like Singapore you would make *tons* of money, probably one of the best incomes you can get teaching. I have two American friends who teach at the local International School (Curitiba) and they live what is an upper midlle-class lifestyle for a Brazilian standards at least.

There are other ways where you can travel and teach and, again, it is far, far easier for a native speaker. But it certainly is not a bad life. This friend of mine has been to São Paulo, Curitiba, Jerusalem and Singapore doing that. So yes, you can even have an international career as an English major.

I also teach sometimes in one of the top schools here, but only because I've been doing that for over 15 years, I lived abroad and I have a degree and a post-graduation in the area. The native speaker teachers don't even have degrees much less experience in teaching.

As long as you look trustable, you have some ability to understand at least the basic of English grammar, and the ability to help people learn, students can't tell a prepared teacher from a good-willed fluent speaker. So, you can take advantage of this kind of opportunity and you should.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:06:10 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 06:05:14 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

You will not think like that if your choice forces those whom you love into a meager existence. But, there are ways to live quite a good living even having English as a major (as I do), but it is easier if you are a native speaker.

For example, there are International Schools. You would have to relocate but if you go to places like Singapore you would make *tons* of money, probably one of the best incomes you can get teaching. I have two American friends who teach at the local International School (Curitiba) and they live what is an upper midlle-class lifestyle for a Brazilian standards at least.

There are other ways where you can travel and teach and, again, it is far, far easier for a native speaker. But it certainly is not a bad life. This friend of mine has been to São Paulo, Curitiba, Jerusalem and Singapore doing that. So yes, you can even have an international career as an English major.

I also teach sometimes in one of the top schools here, but only because I've been doing that for over 15 years, I lived abroad and I have a degree and a post-graduation in the area. The native speaker teachers don't even have degrees much less experience in teaching.

As long as you look trustable, you have some ability to understand at least the basic of English grammar, and the ability to help people learn, students can't tell a prepared teacher from a good-willed fluent speaker. So, you can take advantage of this kind of opportunity and you should.

Well I don't plan on having a family so that's not a problem for me.  Thanks for the suggestions--I'd love to relocate and would consider it. However, one thing that holds me back is that I like guns and wouldn't want to give up my right to bear arms should I leave my nation.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2014, 06:18:44 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.

You will not think like that if your choice forces those whom you love into a meager existence. But, there are ways to live quite a good living even having English as a major (as I do), but it is easier if you are a native speaker.

For example, there are International Schools. You would have to relocate but if you go to places like Singapore you would make *tons* of money, probably one of the best incomes you can get teaching. I have two American friends who teach at the local International School (Curitiba) and they live what is an upper midlle-class lifestyle for a Brazilian standards at least.

There are other ways where you can travel and teach and, again, it is far, far easier for a native speaker. But it certainly is not a bad life. This friend of mine has been to São Paulo, Curitiba, Jerusalem and Singapore doing that. So yes, you can even have an international career as an English major.

I also teach sometimes in one of the top schools here, but only because I've been doing that for over 15 years, I lived abroad and I have a degree and a post-graduation in the area. The native speaker teachers don't even have degrees much less experience in teaching.

As long as you look trustable, you have some ability to understand at least the basic of English grammar, and the ability to help people learn, students can't tell a prepared teacher from a good-willed fluent speaker. So, you can take advantage of this kind of opportunity and you should.

Well I don't plan on having a family so that's not a problem for me.  Thanks for the suggestions--I'd love to relocate and would consider it. However, one thing that holds me back is that I like guns and wouldn't want to give up my right to bear arms should I leave my nation.

Well, when in Rome like the Romans. One of the good things about going abroad is to experience ways of living that are different from ours and to get immersed in local culture. That is what some immigrants to the US and Europe don't do, so, don't act like them if you are abroad. :) And we never really stop being our roots, we just grow to become a better version of them.

I can say that my experience in the UK and later with the Orthodox ethnic communities was some of the best in my life. Some people find it bad that Greeks, Syrians or Russians want to preserve their culture at least in their churches and ethnic associations, that they should be more "Brazilian". I think it was great. I learned a lot talking and being with them.

This kind of experience forced me to see my own culture from outside, to put it in context of global history, it forced me to review some myths about my own culture and at the same time understand better and appreciate some things that seemed "natural" to me and actually weren't. I believe I have now a balanced view of who I am culturally, and I can relate to my own country in a much more mature way. I know where it is going wrong and where it is doing it right. It also helped me to appreciate other cultures in what they have that is admirable and also to stay away from what is clearly not as good. All in all, it helped me to not idolize culture and to be able to learn with all.

Have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_school
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_schools

Since you are starting your major, if you already make contact with some schools you can talk to them, understand what they would require of you and direct your studies for this career. When you graduate you will be ready to go and possibly even with a position waiting for you. Start networking *now*. That is one of the main differentials for having a good career or not.

For example, this is the job page of the Curitiba International School. As you can see, they take part in job fairs in the US, so you can inform yourself when and where fairs will be happening to go there and talk to all schools that may be there.

Quote
WELCOME TO THE ISC
Personnel Services
 
 Join a Diverse and Dedicated Educational Team

Explore Brazil and Experience Curitiba

ISC is a private, non-profit, co-educational institution enrolling 520 students from Toddler through Grade 12, offering an American-based curriculum with 3 diplomas: US, IB & Brazilian. The campus is located on a beautiful, pastoral 18-acre setting on the outskirts of Curitiba.  Located in the southern Brazilian state of Paraná, Curitiba, with a population of 1.8 million, is noted for its standard of living, abundance of parks, clean air and as a model for urban planning in developing countries.



 All positions for the 2014-15 school year have been filled.

Please continue to check our website as additional positions may become available.

 


Minimum requirements for teachers include certification in subject area,1.5 years of teaching experience, and English fluency. International teaching experience preferred.

 
 For further information, please contact Ms. Sandra Domaredzky at 55-41-3525-7401
or send a cover letter and resume to:
ISC Employment

 ISC will also be attending the following recruiting fairs in the U.S.:
 
AASSA - Atlanta   *   ISS - Atlanta, Boston, San Francisco  *   SEARCH -  San Francisco
http://www.iscbrazil.com/?page=Employment
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:32:12 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline john_mo

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2014, 07:26:58 AM »
In my part of the world high school is 'graded'. At the end of your time at elementary school you have to take a test, and this determines to which 'grade' you're allowed to go. With a low score you go to an high school that prepares you for a lower vocational education, such as an education to become a construction worker or abaker. With a very high score you're allowed to go to a high school that prepares you for university. There are five or six grades in all. If you do well in one grade you can move to the next grade, if you so wish. Only those in the top grade are allowed to go to go to the university. An excellent system, I think. This makes sure that lots of stupid people don't get into university, although some still slip through the cracks.

I agree.  Here in Germany, we have a similar vetting process.  The work-force is better proportioned as a result.  

The UK was awful.  I studied in England, and the universities tend to have many, MANY students who have no business even applying for higher-education.  I remember I had a fellow student who got rather upset in the second year of the degree because we were learning about British social politicies and she didn't know who Margaret Thatcher was.  Worse still, she then got even more enraged and shouted out in the middle of class "Why do we have to know who *BEEP* Margaret Thatcher was?!"  She was a child while Thatcher was still in power.

Another student would come in late to a discussion and wouldn't take his head-phones out of his ears, nor turn off his music until I tapped him on the shoulder.

The sad part is that people didn't really question how such had made it into Uni because the standards were so ridiculously low.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:31:15 AM by john_mo »
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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2014, 10:04:28 AM »
In my part of the world high school is 'graded'....Only those in the top grade are allowed to go to go to the university. An excellent system, I think.
Could someone go to a vocational school, work for 30 years, then apply to university for a, say, a BS and then a PhD, if they get top grades at age 50?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:04:49 AM by Jetavan »
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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2014, 10:57:42 AM »
In my part of the world high school is 'graded'....Only those in the top grade are allowed to go to go to the university. An excellent system, I think.
Could someone go to a vocational school, work for 30 years, then apply to university for a, say, a BS and then a PhD, if they get top grades at age 50?

You can apply to university when you're older than 21 and passed a test about the basics of the field you want to study, so yes. Very few persons take this route, however.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:59:31 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2014, 11:38:23 AM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.
I used to be where you are. I majored in music at a private college that was well outside my ability to pay. From the point of view I have now as a professional worker, I would have to say this was one of the most impractical decisions I have ever made. I never earned any income from my music degree, and I attribute much of my financial struggles over the years to my choice of degree program. As a trombonist, unless you're good enough to get a paying job with a professional symphony, you pretty much have to look to earn your living in some other career, which likely means more school and more student loan debt. If you have the smarts for it, a degree in computer science (or its very close cousin, software engineering) has a much higher return on your monetary investment than a music degree in today's economy.

From my vantage point decades later, about the only thing of value I received from my college education was the ability to learn, to study, to communicate through the written word, and to understand at a deep level all the musical things I enjoy doing as my main ministry within the Church. Even if it never brought me any ability to pay off my student loan debt of tens of thousands of dollars, I will never disparage my musical training for what it has done to equip me for ministry. I just realize that I need to do something else to earn a living wage and build a decent retirement. If I have to go back to college--in this case, a decent technical school--to train for a career with a high ROI, then so be it. That's where I am now.
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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2014, 02:47:22 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.
I used to be where you are. I majored in music at a private college that was well outside my ability to pay. From the point of view I have now as a professional worker, I would have to say this was one of the most impractical decisions I have ever made. I never earned any income from my music degree, and I attribute much of my financial struggles over the years to my choice of degree program. As a trombonist, unless you're good enough to get a paying job with a professional symphony, you pretty much have to look to earn your living in some other career, which likely means more school and more student loan debt. If you have the smarts for it, a degree in computer science (or its very close cousin, software engineering) has a much higher return on your monetary investment than a music degree in today's economy.

From my vantage point decades later, about the only thing of value I received from my college education was the ability to learn, to study, to communicate through the written word, and to understand at a deep level all the musical things I enjoy doing as my main ministry within the Church. Even if it never brought me any ability to pay off my student loan debt of tens of thousands of dollars, I will never disparage my musical training for what it has done to equip me for ministry. I just realize that I need to do something else to earn a living wage and build a decent retirement. If I have to go back to college--in this case, a decent technical school--to train for a career with a high ROI, then so be it. That's where I am now.


And -this- was why i wasn't a music major in college.

goes along with the 'how do you spot the music major at the mall?'
'they are the one playing the piano at Nordstrom'   joke.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2014, 02:50:47 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.
I used to be where you are. I majored in music at a private college that was well outside my ability to pay. From the point of view I have now as a professional worker, I would have to say this was one of the most impractical decisions I have ever made. I never earned any income from my music degree, and I attribute much of my financial struggles over the years to my choice of degree program. As a trombonist, unless you're good enough to get a paying job with a professional symphony, you pretty much have to look to earn your living in some other career, which likely means more school and more student loan debt. If you have the smarts for it, a degree in computer science (or its very close cousin, software engineering) has a much higher return on your monetary investment than a music degree in today's economy.

From my vantage point decades later, about the only thing of value I received from my college education was the ability to learn, to study, to communicate through the written word, and to understand at a deep level all the musical things I enjoy doing as my main ministry within the Church. Even if it never brought me any ability to pay off my student loan debt of tens of thousands of dollars, I will never disparage my musical training for what it has done to equip me for ministry. I just realize that I need to do something else to earn a living wage and build a decent retirement. If I have to go back to college--in this case, a decent technical school--to train for a career with a high ROI, then so be it. That's where I am now.


And -this- was why i wasn't a music major in college.

goes along with the 'how do you spot the music major at the mall?'
'they are the one playing the piano at Nordstrom'   joke.
Or this joke:

Q. How do you know that a trombonist is knocking at your door?
A. The Domino's Pizza sign on his car.

What's so funny about this joke is how closely I resemble it. I'm a trombonist, and I've actually worked as a delivery driver for Domino's Pizza. :laugh:
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 02:53:00 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2014, 02:54:36 PM »
What's so funny about this joke is how closely I resemble it. I'm a trombonist, and I've actually worked as a delivery driver for Domino's Pizza. :laugh:

No need to feel ashamed for having been a pizza delivery guy. Where would we be without them?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2014, 02:58:11 PM »
What's so funny about this joke is how closely I resemble it. I'm a trombonist, and I've actually worked as a delivery driver for Domino's Pizza. :laugh:

No need to feel ashamed for having been a pizza delivery guy. Where would we be without them?
Probably a lot skinnier. :laugh:
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2014, 03:04:14 PM »
What's so funny about this joke is how closely I resemble it. I'm a trombonist, and I've actually worked as a delivery driver for Domino's Pizza. :laugh:

No need to feel ashamed for having been a pizza delivery guy. Where would we be without them?
Probably a lot skinnier. :laugh:

You say that as if that's a good thing. A bit of fat will keep the costs of heating down.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 03:04:35 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2014, 03:20:31 PM »
I always laugh at the arrogant Engineering majors who--after 10 years of making a good living--will become jobless and lower middle class as the degree is rapidly becoming more and more valueless as more people pursue it. Soon "Engineering" will mean nothing and Engineers will have to go to graduate school later in life to become more specialized.

At least the liberal arts majors like myself know what we're getting ourselves into and are mentally prepared for it  ;D

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2014, 03:24:21 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.
I used to be where you are. I majored in music at a private college that was well outside my ability to pay. From the point of view I have now as a professional worker, I would have to say this was one of the most impractical decisions I have ever made. I never earned any income from my music degree, and I attribute much of my financial struggles over the years to my choice of degree program. As a trombonist, unless you're good enough to get a paying job with a professional symphony, you pretty much have to look to earn your living in some other career, which likely means more school and more student loan debt. If you have the smarts for it, a degree in computer science (or its very close cousin, software engineering) has a much higher return on your monetary investment than a music degree in today's economy.

From my vantage point decades later, about the only thing of value I received from my college education was the ability to learn, to study, to communicate through the written word, and to understand at a deep level all the musical things I enjoy doing as my main ministry within the Church. Even if it never brought me any ability to pay off my student loan debt of tens of thousands of dollars, I will never disparage my musical training for what it has done to equip me for ministry. I just realize that I need to do something else to earn a living wage and build a decent retirement. If I have to go back to college--in this case, a decent technical school--to train for a career with a high ROI, then so be it. That's where I am now.

Peter,

That was actually inspiring and I appreciate it.

I feel happy knowing what I am getting myself in to. And I don't think I am going to change my decision at all. Life is too short to focus on money. I just want to be happy.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 03:27:34 PM »
I always laugh at the arrogant Engineering majors who--after 10 years of making a good living--will become jobless and lower middle class as the degree is rapidly becoming more and more valueless as more people pursue it. Soon "Engineering" will mean nothing and Engineers will have to go to graduate school later in life to become more specialized.
I always laugh at the arrogant young whippersnappers who, after 18 years of living at home and not even making a living, think they know everything about how the job market works and where the market is growing the fastest. ;)

At least the liberal arts majors like myself know what we're getting ourselves into and are mentally prepared for it  ;D
I was a liberal arts major once. I didn't know anything about what I was getting myself into, and neither do you.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 03:29:07 PM »
English literature studies is about as impractical and elitist as anything you can think of.

Well thank you for insulting this here freshman English major  ;) I know that I'll most likely be living a lower middle class life due to my choice of a major--unless I decide to go to Law School afterward--but I'm doing it because it makes me happy and will help me to learn something I am passionate about. I don't care about living a meager existence; I'm used to it.
I used to be where you are. I majored in music at a private college that was well outside my ability to pay. From the point of view I have now as a professional worker, I would have to say this was one of the most impractical decisions I have ever made. I never earned any income from my music degree, and I attribute much of my financial struggles over the years to my choice of degree program. As a trombonist, unless you're good enough to get a paying job with a professional symphony, you pretty much have to look to earn your living in some other career, which likely means more school and more student loan debt. If you have the smarts for it, a degree in computer science (or its very close cousin, software engineering) has a much higher return on your monetary investment than a music degree in today's economy.

From my vantage point decades later, about the only thing of value I received from my college education was the ability to learn, to study, to communicate through the written word, and to understand at a deep level all the musical things I enjoy doing as my main ministry within the Church. Even if it never brought me any ability to pay off my student loan debt of tens of thousands of dollars, I will never disparage my musical training for what it has done to equip me for ministry. I just realize that I need to do something else to earn a living wage and build a decent retirement. If I have to go back to college--in this case, a decent technical school--to train for a career with a high ROI, then so be it. That's where I am now.

Peter,

That was actually inspiring and I appreciate it.

I feel happy knowing what I am getting myself in to.
Do you really? I don't know that you really know what it is to know anything.

And I don't think I am going to change my decision at all. Life is too short to focus on money. I just want to be happy.
A college degree won't make you happy, young man.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 03:39:17 PM »
I was a liberal arts major once. I didn't know anything about what I was getting myself into, and neither do you.

Not every liberal arts degree is as unemployable as Music, though. English isn't too bad.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 03:42:54 PM »
PtA, you're being kind of a jerk. James was expressing respect for your opinions and you still shoot him down.

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2014, 05:18:17 PM »
What's so funny about this joke is how closely I resemble it. I'm a trombonist, and I've actually worked as a delivery driver for Domino's Pizza. :laugh:

No need to feel ashamed for having been a pizza delivery guy. Where would we be without them?
Probably a lot skinnier. :laugh:

You say that as if that's a good thing. A bit of fat will keep the costs of heating down.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2014, 05:37:14 PM »
PtA, you're being kind of a jerk. James was expressing respect for your opinions and you still shoot him down.
If expressing respect for my opinion was the only thing he did in that post...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:37:42 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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