Author Topic: Minor OO-related questions  (Read 29780 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #180 on: April 22, 2016, 11:01:26 AM »
Lol no need to get all apologetic. It was just just a minor observation which I think even most of you would agree with.

Actually, no, I would not agree. 

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #181 on: April 23, 2016, 02:10:18 AM »
Does the Ethiopian church forbid smoking?

Just noticed this and yes, it was traditionally forbidden. (Something to do with the 'devil's smoke' versus the sweet smoke of incense in church, more likely because it would have come to the country from adjacent Muslim areas.)

Not sure what the Church's official line is now, but I'm just back from a visit to Ethiopia and the contrast between it and where I currently live in the PRC/China is staggering - I can't go out here without being exposed to cigarette smoke (in the elevator, on the street, in the entryways to stores, in every public bathroom I've used, in cafes, in restaurants, on the train, even inside schools :-/ ), whereas my whole time in Ethiopia I can count on one hand the number of people I saw smoking. It may not be banned anymore, but it's certainly not a big thing the way it is in some countries.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #182 on: April 24, 2016, 06:48:51 AM »
Thanks. I have a friend who's married to an Ethiopian and he once told me that his Ethiopian friends seems to frown upon smoking. I was a bit suprised to hear that and thought it might have some linkages to the Tewahedo church.

Btw, what do you mean by your jurisdiction? You've managed to find the still lingering Russian EOs from China?

I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #183 on: April 24, 2016, 10:16:07 AM »
Thanks. I have a friend who's married to an Ethiopian and he once told me that his Ethiopian friends seems to frown upon smoking. I was a bit suprised to hear that and thought it might have some linkages to the Tewahedo church.

Btw, what do you mean by your jurisdiction? You've managed to find the still lingering Russian EOs from China?

Yeah, the Church is very strict in Ethiopia (no doubt Eritrea too), often too strict in some cases :-/.

It means what it says - I belong to a parish of the Church of China (Moscow Patriarchate). There isn't a hierarchy at present, but there are still a handful of parishes in the northern PRC, a couple of Russian Embassy/Consulate parishes, and the parishes in Hong Kong and Taiwan, all directly under the patriarch of Moscow. My parish is under a Chinese priest and is about half Chinese, half foreign (mostly Russian-speaking).

No Ethiopian Orthodox parishes in China, alas, or I'd go to one of them instead :-). No offense to the 'new' (ex-Soviet) Russians or the Chinese, but they're not always the friendliest people in the world :-/.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 10:20:49 AM by kijabeboy03 »

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #184 on: April 24, 2016, 10:53:17 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #185 on: April 24, 2016, 11:56:49 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.

They ordained their first priest since the cultural revolution a couple of years ago. Hopefully they can expand and get a bishop too.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #186 on: April 24, 2016, 01:54:10 PM »
Is there some theological reason for men depicted in Coptic icons often looking like Christ or is it just a fixed style?


Saint Mark:



Saint Stephen (I guess):



Martyrs of Libya:
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #187 on: April 24, 2016, 03:14:28 PM »
It's a "neo-Coptic" design of Isaac Fanous.  I'm not sure why he does.  One can only speculate (perhaps we are all in the image of God?)
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #188 on: April 25, 2016, 03:11:18 AM »
I asked one of the most important disciples of Isaac Fanous, who was trained by him for many years. He says...

No, not all male faces should be the same. All faces, male and female are based on the same geometrical principles. There are those who, perhaps through lack of practice and/or lack of imagination, do repeat the same face. I have quite often seen it.
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Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #189 on: April 25, 2016, 03:54:06 AM »
Interesting. I thought that the Chinese church is long-dead by now. Glad to hear that it still exists at least on some level.

They ordained their first priest since the cultural revolution a couple of years ago. Hopefully they can expand and get a bishop too.

Yes, the assistant priest in Hong Kong was the first. There is now a second, the rector of the parish in Harbin and I believe of one or two rural parishes in northeastern China. There are also rural or small city parishes in what is now northwestern China that have occasional services. Most (all?) of the existing parishes started to serve the White Russian Diaspora here, but are now mostly mixed. I think there are some ethnic Russians in the northwest who are Chinese citizens, but in most places any Russians attached to the parishes are expats (often women married to Chinese men) or students. Parishes can only legally function outside the embassies if they're Chinese-run - foreigners can attend, but they can't be involved in leadership. (Hence the push to get more Chinese men ordained, the government doesn't like Russian priests even just doing short pastoral visits to the ethnic Chinese parishes.)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #190 on: May 06, 2016, 06:53:12 PM »
Language question: does the average church-going Copt or Syriac understand their liturgical languages? I'm aware both languages, though related, are completely different from Arabic, but I was wondering if life in church just lead the faithful to grasp them. Also, how often is Arabic used in mainland parishes?
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #191 on: May 08, 2016, 10:28:42 PM »
Why do Coptic icons of bishops always show them vested like priests? For reference, I submit icons of St. Peter (I assume "the Fuller") of Alexandria, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, & Peter of Sebastea, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and the Three Holy Hierarchs.
Every one of these is vested either as a priest-monk or (oddly) as a married priest. Was the turban worn by Coptic bishops nowadays a later invention?

Also, obligatory grumpiness about the lack of full traditional vesture.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2016, 08:59:42 PM »
I was talking to wgw about how atypical it seems to be that Brazil had at least two Syriac bishops without a drop of Arab (or Indian, duh) blood: Mor Basílio and Mor José Efrém (maybe our Mor Ephrem's Latino brother?). So out of mere curiosity: are there many cases of "non-ethnic" OO bishops that you guys know of?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 09:03:25 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2016, 10:57:49 PM »
I was talking to wgw about how atypical it seems to be that Brazil had at least two Syriac bishops without a drop of Arab (or Indian, duh) blood: Mor Basílio and Mor José Efrém (maybe our Mor Ephrem's Latino brother?). So out of mere curiosity: are there many cases of "non-ethnic" OO bishops that you guys know of?

The two (now one) bishops of French Orthodox Church are part of the Coptic synod and French. The bishop of the British Orthodox Church was a member of the Coptic synod while being English, until he left. Anba Macarius is a member of the Coptic synod and is Eritrean.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #194 on: July 24, 2016, 01:11:30 AM »
I know this is late, but good for reference I suppose:

Language question: does the average church-going Copt or Syriac understand their liturgical languages? I'm aware both languages, though related, are completely different from Arabic, but I was wondering if life in church just lead the faithful to grasp them. Also, how often is Arabic used in mainland parishes?
Speaking for Copts...no!  Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.  Others know it in a more academic sense, like Latin.

Also speaking for Copts, Arabic is used quite often in some parishes.  Other parishes are beginning to phase out Arabic into the vernacular.  It depends on who you serve. Parishes with high immigrant populations will split their parishes into Arabic and English liturgies to serve both Arab and American Copts if they have enough space and priests to do so.

Why do Coptic icons of bishops always show them vested like priests? For reference, I submit icons of St. Peter (I assume "the Fuller") of Alexandria, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, & Peter of Sebastea, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, and the Three Holy Hierarchs.
Every one of these is vested either as a priest-monk or (oddly) as a married priest. Was the turban worn by Coptic bishops nowadays a later invention?

Also, obligatory grumpiness about the lack of full traditional vesture.

That's Pope St. Peter, "seal of the martyrs" ("Heiromatyros"), who is venerated by all ancient churches (including EOs and RCs), and was the first to condemn Arius.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 01:14:46 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #195 on: July 25, 2016, 08:51:40 PM »
Oh, I had forgotten about Abba Seraphim!
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #196 on: August 08, 2016, 03:21:15 PM »
Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.

Huh? I thought it had died centuries ago as a vernacular. Are there still people who actually use it outside of prayer and patristics?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2016, 03:45:05 PM »
Only very few you can count with your fingers would know conversational Coptic.

Huh? I thought it had died centuries ago as a vernacular. Are there still people who actually use it outside of prayer and patristics?

There are very few in the world who learn Coptic academically, but for zealous reasons of love of the language in association with the Orthodox faith, they try to revive it conversationally.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:45:20 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2016, 03:49:11 PM »
Cool. Hope they succeed in that. It's probably very marginal but there's some nerd in me who'd like to see revival of Coptic language. Just for the sake of the fact that ancient languages are cool.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:51:00 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Dominika

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2016, 03:53:38 PM »
Cool. Hope they succeed in that. It's probably very marginal but there's some nerd in me who'd like to see revival of Coptic language. Just for the sake of the fact that ancient languages are cool.
It worked with Hebrew, so why not?
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #200 on: August 08, 2016, 03:59:49 PM »
Israelis had state's support, IIRC predujice against non-Hebrew speaking Jews and they needed a common language. Copts already speak Arabic, their state was conquered by Muslims and assumingly nobody looks down upon those who don't speak Coptic. :P
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.  However, if we can lobby the Egyptian government to have Muslims pick up enough pride for their own ancestral Coptic heritage with us, perhaps it might help with a revival of sorts.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #202 on: August 08, 2016, 04:17:38 PM »
Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.

In theory wheras reality on the other hand... :)
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2016, 05:40:59 PM »
Not only state support and previous knowledge, Israelis really needed a common language. Most of them spoke Yiddish, but not all, and Yiddish was barely a written language. I mean, it already had books on it and a standard form, but it would only become a formal language as a community reaction to its being superposed by Hebrew.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #204 on: December 28, 2016, 02:38:49 AM »
Question:
In terms of a worship service and church design and art, what is the most similar service to that of Syriac OOs:
Melkite Catholics
Antiochian EOs
Copts
Armenians
Indian Orthodox

And how much different is it?

Nearest Syriac church is like 2 hours from me, but am interested in the service.
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #205 on: December 28, 2016, 03:12:23 AM »
I'm not OO but I could bet a hundred dollars on Indian Orthodox.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #206 on: December 28, 2016, 03:38:16 AM »
I'm not OO but I could bet a hundred dollars on Indian Orthodox.
I guess you are right, so the next question is how close are they?

For example, the language and ethnicity for Syriacs and Antiochians is Semitic, while Indian Orthodox use Malayalam as the main language. Also, Indian Orthodox have unique Indian characteristics in art, architecture, and ritual.
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #207 on: January 12, 2018, 02:05:14 PM »
Aren't Ss. Varus and Cleopatra Coptic saints?
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Offline NJC

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #208 on: January 16, 2018, 04:37:03 AM »
Hi all,

I am attending a Coptic Orthodox church at the moment, and one thing i want clarified is the use of Protestant-eque worship songs? At first i was a bit off by them, and now i don't mind them (even beginning to enjoy them), but i wouldn't mind knowing more about it. Is this a recent thing to engage youth in a modern style of worship? To combat Protestants? In my Church, we seem to go through at least a few of these songs every time we gather for prayer.

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #209 on: January 16, 2018, 06:25:02 AM »
They are not part of the Coptic Orthodox Tradition at all, and subvert it. They are introduced for a variety of reasons but the hierarchy has often spoken against such Protestant influences.
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #210 on: January 16, 2018, 01:40:53 PM »
Is this an example of despised electronic OO music? Because I have to say... I don't hate it.

Maybe it's just that this is an especially polished example?
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #211 on: January 16, 2018, 02:48:29 PM »
Is this an example of despised electronic OO music? Because I have to say... I don't hate it.

Maybe it's just that this is an especially polished example?

Despised is a bit strong (well, maybe not for some re: praise music ;D).  Either way, it's not a monolithic OO-wide question; there are separate "issues."  The Coptic Church is dealing with professionally produced Contemporary Christian Music seeping into their parishes in various ways.  This carries problems of teaching as well as musical ones; the lyrics of CCM (apart from just being bad), carry a different theology than do the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.  Beyond that, when it's a theologically harmless song, like "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High," it's like eating air instead of meat on a couple different levels.  I personally wouldn't slam someone for listening to it outside of church, but would say to filter the messages like one filter messages in secular music.

The synthesizer mentioned on the other thread isn't the same thing.  I don't think the link you provided would be allowed in a service, but synthesizers are used in services--I don't know how broadly.  It appears to serve mainly a support function, though.  What you linked is beautiful, but because these are Orthodox hymns and prayers, the less accompanied and produced, the better.  Orthodox hymns and prayers are written specifically to instruct, edify, deepen reflection, and ultimately sanctify.  The question with the synthesizer seems more whether and to what extent it aids that purpose or distracts from it, but at least there is not a concern over theology.

Or something...  :laugh:
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #212 on: January 16, 2018, 03:31:22 PM »
Oh yes. I agree it's not nearly in the same ballpark as CCM. Sorry if I implied that.
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Re: Minor OO-related questions
« Reply #213 on: January 16, 2018, 03:37:31 PM »
Oh yes. I agree it's not nearly in the same ballpark as CCM. Sorry if I implied that.

I may have misinterpreted. :D
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.