Author Topic: Jewish arguments against Christianity  (Read 13370 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2014, 02:01:03 AM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.

A few verses here or there does not mean the whole Scriptures is lost.  And the canon of the books changed, yes, but overall, there's still an overwhelming similarity between the Old Testament of the Christians and the Scriptures of the Jews.

There's no such thing as a magic book.  If one does the research, the Quran is also subject to these same changes as well.  It seems the tampering is trying to deny these changes.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2014, 02:07:00 AM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.

A few verses here or there does not mean the whole Scriptures is lost.  And the canon of the books changed, yes, but overall, there's still an overwhelming similarity between the Old Testament of the Christians and the Scriptures of the Jews.

There's no such thing as a magic book.  If one does the research, the Quran is also subject to these same changes as well.  It seems the tampering is trying to deny these changes.
I hold the view that the Qur'an hasn't been tampered with. Course I'm a Muslim and hold that when Allah said this Qur'an would be protected I believe it.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2014, 02:13:24 AM »
I am afraid if this is what you believe, you will be sorely disappointed.  May God bless you.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2014, 05:28:13 AM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.

A few verses here or there does not mean the whole Scriptures is lost.  And the canon of the books changed, yes, but overall, there's still an overwhelming similarity between the Old Testament of the Christians and the Scriptures of the Jews.

There's no such thing as a magic book.  If one does the research, the Quran is also subject to these same changes as well.  It seems the tampering is trying to deny these changes.
I hold the view that the Qur'an hasn't been tampered with. Course I'm a Muslim and hold that when Allah said this Qur'an would be protected I believe it.

And it's not true, read the Hadith, they mention countless verses removed. The Qur'an itself didn't have Tashkeel originally either.


7th century Qur'an

Quote
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

http://sunnah.com/urn/1262630

Those verses are not in the Qur'an.

Quote
`Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." `Umar added, "Surely Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/86/56

The verses of stoning were revealed... and they are not in the Qur'an.

Furthermore al-Baqarah and al-Ahzab used to have the same amount of verses.

Quote
http://www.al-islam.org/quran-its-protection-alteration-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/some-ahadith-omission

1. The thirty-third chapter of the Qur'an, al-Ahzab, is alleged to have contained 200 or nearly 300 verses, all of which except 73 are said to have been lost. The claim of 200 verses is attributed to Ummu 'l-mu'minin, 'A'ishah. "It has been narrated by Abu 'Ubayd in al-Fada'il and by Ibn al-Anbari and Ibn Mardawayh from Aishah that she said, 'The surah al-Ahzab was recited in the days of the Prophet two hundred verses, but when 'Uthman wrote the Qur'an, he was unable to find more than what is there at present." 1 Now there are only 73 verses in this surah.

Hudhayfah is said to claim that 70 verses of this chapter were lost.2  But Ubayy ibn Ka'b is made to say that this surah was equal to, or even bigger than the second chapter al-Baqarah.3 Also, 'Ikrimah (a tabi'i, disciple of the companions) has reportedly said the same.4 Now the chapter al-Baqarah contains 286 verses. It means accordingly that 213 or even more verses were lost, including the verse of stoning.

2. The ninth chapter, at-Tawbah: It is alleged that two-thirds or three-fourths of this surah has been lost. This report is attributed to Hudhayfah al-Yamani.5 Imam Malik ibn Anas was asked as to why there is no "Bismillah" in this surah. He said, "It was lost with its earlier parts, because it is confirmed that it was equal to surah al-Baqarah in length."6

1. As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 5, pp. 179-180; As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, vol. 2. p. 25.
2. Al-Bukhari, at-Ta'rikh, as quoted by as-Suyuti in the above books.
3. Az-Zamakhshari, Tafsir al-Kashshaf, vol. 2 (Calcutta: Lees. 1856) p. 1117: Mulla Ali al-Muttaqi, Kanzu 'l-Ummal.
4. As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 5. p. 179.
5. As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 3. p. 208: al-Itqan, vol. 2. p. 26: al-Hakim an-Nishapuri, al-Mustadrak alas-Sahihan, vol. 2 (Hyderabad: Dairatul-Ma'arif. 1340 AH) p. 331.
6. As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, vol. 1, p. 65.

Quote
[Narrated 'Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310; As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13

Despite how unhistorical the Hadith are, they do seem to be problematic to one who accepts their legitimacy as orthodox Muslims do, in relation to their claiming the Qur'an is immutable.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:31:13 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2014, 12:04:48 PM »
There's also the Sana'a manuscript as well that would be troubling for those who hold Quranic inerrancy.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2014, 12:12:57 PM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.
Yes, we have the textual evidence (the LXX was translated almost two centuries before the rise of the Church), and you don't.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline jewish voice

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2014, 05:03:37 PM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.
Yes, we have the textual evidence (the LXX was translated almost two centuries before the rise of the Church), and you don't.
point in case ....   Also we are getting way way off topic here ...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 05:05:09 PM by jewish voice »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2014, 05:16:30 PM »
Found it:

Quote
The Moslem-- I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted.

...

The Monk-- Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible. If that was possible you were, then, founding the apocryphal Gospels with a part of Christians. While if you pay for a trip over the whole world, you will find the Gospels in various languages analogous to those received from the Apostles of our Lord the Christ. No difference between any of them, even in one letter, except the particular traits of each language. I, hereby, give you an example which lets you believe me: If someone comes and shows a Koran different from that known to you now, and says, " this is the Koran inspired by the Prophet," while it is not, will you accept it?

The Prince-- No, on the contrary we shall kill him and burn his book.

Source

Here the monk was actually kind enough to talk about just the gospels.  But the Old Testament, being that Jews and Christians for the most part agree on the Scriptures in that, it would be a far-reaching argument to consider the fact that Jews and Christians conspired together to create the Scriptures we have today!  It is a very strange and desperate argument.
come on really.how many times do I see orthodox here post that the Jews change books talmud wrote after Jesus. How many times do Jews here such as myself once did say you changed versus to fit Jesus as messiah. Let's be consistent here please.
Yes, we have the textual evidence (the LXX was translated almost two centuries before the rise of the Church), and you don't.
point in case ....   Also we are getting way way off topic here ...
you brought it up.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2014, 05:42:44 PM »
The difference between the Masoretic (used by Jews and Protestants) and Septuagint (used by Catholic and Orthodox) texts is akin to the differences between Sana'a Quran and the present Quran.  Does that mean it was "tampered" with? I think more intelligent minds should be the judge of that. The fact that Muslims don't trust the Bible because of textual variance is intellectually dishonest and hypocritical at worst.

And that is an argument no intelligent Jew could use against Christians. What Jews do is actually discuss the textual variances.  Otherwise, the vast majority is authentically preserved.  See the Dead Sea Scrolls for instance.  It is actually argued that it does follow mostly the LXX, and it seemed the translators of the LXX used something similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls.  But we as Orthodox do not mind the textual study of the Masoretic. Heck, Protestants use it, and you don't see them denying some important tenets of Christianity.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Jewish arguments against Christianity
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2014, 11:54:49 PM »
As I understand it, and I've never had this conversation with Jews in person (I've known them at work, where in order to keep the peace you don't talk about religion) or online, the Jews' slam-dunk against us is Jesus died so he's not the Messiah. He was their boy, at most a kind but maybe deluded teacher, or his followers made up the resurrection. All the resurrection stories happened only to believers. So the Modernist thinks they're myths, and I imagine the Jews do to. Believers accept them on faith.
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