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Author Topic: What is the Orthodox Church odds with Rome's papacy and how do Catholics...  (Read 4620 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: August 15, 2014, 03:01:23 PM »

The American Indians who became Spanish America weren't apostolic Christians to begin with, unlike a Catholic who leaves for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #226 on: August 15, 2014, 03:01:44 PM »

This tit-for-tat is hilarious. Tongue
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« Reply #227 on: August 15, 2014, 03:02:46 PM »

We defeated the Mohammedans at Lepanto and the gates of Vienna.

How's dhimmitude working out for youse?
St. Alexander Nevsky's legacy


We were doing pretty well until Western "help" came along.  Until recently, Iraq, for instance, had a million or so Christians-many who had been seduced by the Vatican's false promises. Where are they and why did they go?
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« Reply #228 on: August 15, 2014, 03:05:03 PM »

The American Indians who became Spanish America weren't apostolic Christians to begin with, unlike a Catholic who leaves for Orthodoxy.
They didn't chose to become Spanish America (sic) any more than they chose the Vatican.  Those in Alaska, California, Mexico and now Guatemala have become Apostolic Christians by choice.

By definition a Catholic cannot leave for Orthodoxy, for without Orthodoxy he wouldn't be Catholic to begin with.
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« Reply #229 on: August 15, 2014, 03:05:15 PM »

'Universal' has nothing to do with total number of adherents, adherents as a percentage of the population of a region/country, geographical variety, geographical terms (east, west, etc.), nationality, ethnic or liturgical diversity, or anything else along those lines.

Though since this is a very image-heavy thread (oh, look who is posting in it  Tongue ), I decided to take 2 minutes to consult with wiki and draw some lines in ms paint, just to sort of give a visual for some of the numbers.


++

Christian Triumphalist Demographic arguments, in addition to being factually hopeless (as Justin and others have shown), are just bizarre and self-defeating coming from a RC whose own faith historically has rejected their validity.

As I recall, we worship a God whose name was unknown beyond the border of a tiny nation then roughly the size of New Jersey (ancient Israel); before that time the fullness of worship was said to be even more exclusive, the prized possession of a single wandering Aramaean nomad of the second millennium BC (Abraham) and his blood descendants.

As I recall Christ so far as can be confirmed never traveled more than 100 miles from his place of birth. If "Where was your God in America and Australia, huh?" arguments presented any real challenge to the historic Christian faith your own RC faith would have long since been invalidated by them.

As I recall the Church spread out from a tiny band of 12 disciples following a controversial Teacher who was unfamiliar to the majority of people living on earth at the time of his earthly sojourn. Then He was crucified and even these men fled.

As I recall the RC church summarily rejected the same sort of argument as invalid when they were used against RC after the discovery of the New World "(Where is/was your God in the New World? Among the unreached tribes of Africa? In China for most of her history? etc.)

As I recall the same sort of argument such arguments were also used against the early Christians by pagan opponents

The whole argument from universal demographics of itself, historically speaking, has primarily come from enemies of Christianity rather than her champions.

Not to mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
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« Reply #230 on: August 15, 2014, 03:06:06 PM »

Russian "universality," as in pan-Slavism, isn't universality. It's a parody of it. Ask the Ukrainians.
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« Reply #231 on: August 15, 2014, 03:06:50 PM »

The American Indians who became Spanish America weren't apostolic Christians to begin with, unlike a Catholic who leaves for Orthodoxy.

How Catholic can leave Orthodoxy, since Catholicism=Orthodoxy?

Russian "universality," as in pan-Slavism, isn't universality. It's a parody of it. Ask the Ukrainians.
And one Roman Pope slept with his daughter... he was source of unity of Christians and Vicar of Christ?
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« Reply #232 on: August 15, 2014, 03:10:01 PM »

The Pope goes to confession just like everybody else, my Serbian brother. We don't believe he's sinless or even a saint. His OFFICE shares in the church's charism of infallibility. Not the man.

By the way, to blame the Holy See for the Iraq War and its aftermath today is either ignorance or slander. I'll be charitable and assume the former. The Pope was against that war since day one.
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« Reply #233 on: August 15, 2014, 03:11:12 PM »

RC officially anathematizes *us* -for what most of us believe and for what the Eastern *and* Western churches believed for centuries- in standing declarations (see above), declarations that anathematize those who deny what Ecumenical Councils and papal oaths, and the whole RC church universally, denied for centuries. Remove the declarations of historical innovations at odds with the history of the Church and reunion becomes a possibility.

No, again, by that logic the true church uncoincidentally is limited to satrap (tsar)-land. Not buying.
no, you are trying to sell your cure all for schism, fresh from the source thereof.


As for the true Church being limited to Russia
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« Reply #234 on: August 15, 2014, 03:13:00 PM »



In short, Russkyj Mir. Not true universality, even though Russians are great people.
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« Reply #235 on: August 15, 2014, 03:15:49 PM »

Russian "universality," as in pan-Slavism, isn't universality. It's a parody of it. Ask the Ukrainians.
I have.  They agreed with us, and denounce you.


We Arabs have  long standing relations with the Russians (and Ukrainians etc.), although we aren't Slavs.

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« Reply #236 on: August 15, 2014, 03:18:45 PM »

One cannot reason with a Demographic Triumphalist addicted to arguments repudiated by his own church.

Perhaps we should all become insects.
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« Reply #237 on: August 15, 2014, 03:20:22 PM »

The Pope goes to confession just like everybody else, my Serbian brother. We don't believe he's sinless or even a saint. His OFFICE shares in the church's charism of infallibility. Not the man.
Man does not exercise office? Gifts of Holy Spirit as not bestowed to those who are living accordingly to Christian ethic doctrine?


Meh... now on serious note, why would Sins of Orthodox Christians be your argunment for anything pertaining lack of fulness of Orthodox Church, and sins of Roman Popes are sins of just them...
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« Reply #238 on: August 15, 2014, 03:21:04 PM »



In short, Russkyj Mir. Not true universality, even though Russians are great people.
No Russians to speak of in Greece, or Cyprus, or Romania... though your are free to carry that great chip on your shoulder for the Russian people.

The Pax Vaticana isn't the universal empire it claims to be.  It just pretends to be.  Just ask the Italo-Greeks.
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« Reply #239 on: August 15, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »

For a Westerner, converting to Orthodoxy is a self-hating act, a repudiation of roots that at least some born Orthodox rightly find repugnant. Converting to Greek Catholicism isn't, because it's not a repudiation.

That is absurd, and it is your own mote in the eye, based on your life's journey that has so embittered you. Thank God the modern leadership of YOUR church is neither as hardened nor as jaundiced as are you.

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« Reply #240 on: August 15, 2014, 03:23:10 PM »

The Pope goes to confession just like everybody else, my Serbian brother. We don't believe he's sinless or even a saint. His OFFICE shares in the church's charism of infallibility. Not the man.
Christ conferred the episcopate on men, not offices.
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« Reply #241 on: August 15, 2014, 03:25:06 PM »


Vatican I anathematizes anyone who has the temerity to deny papal infallibility. The whole RC Church did that for centuries universally in papal oaths and Ecumenical Councils.


Not to mention is also anathematized anyone who interpenetrated Matthew 16:18 as referring to the rock being anything but the person of Peter.

There goes Blessed Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, etc....

Slow clapping. Brilliant. Put your money where your mouth is and move to Russia. Or Serbia, or wherever.
after you move to Poland. Or Vatican City.

He got you Phoney. Your "Catholic Encyclopedia"backs him up:
Quote
In the Fathers the references to the promise of Matthew 16:19, are of frequent occurrence. Almost invariably the words of Christ are cited in proof of the Church's power to forgive sins. The application is a natural one, for the promise of the keys is immediately followed by the words: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth", etc. Moreover, the power to confer or to withhold forgiveness might well be viewed as the opening and shutting of the gates of heaven. This interpretation, however, restricts the sense somewhat too narrowly; for the remission of sins is but one of the various ways in which ecclesiastical authority is exercised. We have examples of this use of the term is such passages as August., "De Doctrina Christi", xvii, xviii: "Quid liberatius et misericordius facere potuit. . .nisi ut omnia donaret conversis. . .Has igitur claves dedit Ecclesiae suae ut quae solveret in terra soluta essent in coelo" (How could He [Christ] have shown greater liberality and greater mercy. . .than by granting full forgiveness to those who should turn from their sins. . .He gave these keys to His Church, therefore, that whatever it should remit on earth should be remitted also in heaven) (P.L., XXIV, 25; cf. Hilary, "In Matt.", xvi, P.L., IX, 1010).

It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. In their references to the potestas clavium, they are usually intent on vindicating against the Montanist and Novatian heretics the power inherent in the Church to forgive. Thus St. Augustine in several passages declares that the authority to bind and loose was not a purely personal gift to St. Peter, but was conferred upon him as representing the Church. The whole Church, he urges, exercises the power of forgiving sins. This could not be had the gift been a personal one (tract. 1 in Joan., n. 12, P.L., XXXV, 1763; Serm. ccxcv, in P.L., XXXVIII, 1349).
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm

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« Reply #242 on: August 15, 2014, 03:25:41 PM »

This is indeed a most 'constructive' 'debate'.....

Popcorn, anyone?
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« Reply #243 on: August 15, 2014, 03:27:51 PM »

This is indeed a most 'constructive' 'debate'.....

Popcorn, anyone?

As long as there's no butter, I'm down...you know, for the Theotokos  angel
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« Reply #244 on: August 15, 2014, 03:40:40 PM »

Quote
'Universal' has nothing to do with total number of adherents, adherents as a percentage of the population of a region/country, geographical variety, geographical terms (east, west, etc.), nationality, ethnic or liturgical diversity, or anything else along those lines.

Right, which is why numbers don't prove Mohammedans or American Protestants right.

Bishops, Trinity, hypostatic union, Mother of God, images, Real Presence (the Mass). We have the same faith.

As the Rusyns say, "Šizko jedno." It's all one. No matter what the tsars, sultans, or Comrade First Secretaries say.
no matter what "supreme pontiffs" say, it's not. You assUme you have apostalic succession of bishops, that your interpolated trinity is the Holy Trinity, that the Mother of God would recognize herself in your Immaculata, that your transubstantiation actually happens at the hand of those who have Vatican sponsored faculties to confect.....

As we say, a pig isn't a lady, no matter how much lipstick you put on it.
Quote
You promote a sect in Vatican City now out of communion with everyone, so what's your beef?

So now us papists are "no one," as in (to use a good Sovietism) non-persons? And you call ME a racist.
you need help
http://www.merriam-webster.com/

So you're in communion with yourselves. Duh.  Christ blessed His little flock, not a bloated and stacked one.
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« Reply #245 on: August 15, 2014, 03:46:53 PM »

You're going to worship God in those catacombs with a few destitute people wearing rags? Hardly anybody goes down there. Why would they?

Why just admit it and go with the numerical and demographic majority: worship the Emperor.


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« Reply #246 on: August 15, 2014, 03:50:12 PM »

Not a beam in my eye at all, podkarpatska. If anything, "I oughta know." I've come clean. Nothing to hide.

Ekdikos, of course the man exercises the office, but just like when the bishops, sinners all, meet in an ecumenical council and define a doctrine, it's not really them, but the Holy Spirit acting, so we believe about the office of the Pope.

It's not about the sins of both sides, brother. It's about the huge body of doctrine and practice we still share. We believe you are an estranged part of us.

Which is also my answer to xariskai's latest.

It's not because that shared teaching and practice is big and powerful. It's because we accept it by faith as true.
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« Reply #247 on: August 15, 2014, 03:53:39 PM »

It's not about the sins of both sides, brother. It's about the huge body of doctrine and practice we still share. We believe you are an estranged part of us.
You believe we are an estranged part of you, officially anathematized and excommunicated. A kind gesture, but in the final analysis thanks for nothing.
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« Reply #248 on: August 15, 2014, 03:54:55 PM »

We didn't really excommunicate you. You left.
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« Reply #249 on: August 15, 2014, 03:58:15 PM »

We didn't really excommunicate you. You left.
Um, sausage bologna. We are really officially excommunicated by you, as documented previously:

Quote from: xariskai link=topic=59966.msg1172869#msg1172869 date=1408118369[size=10pt
]
Orthodox are officially anathemetized by standing declarations from the RC side. No need for Orthodox to make "excuses to stay outside."

For example there is a standing anathema of Vatican I (proclaimed in 1870) upon all who "have the temerity to reject" the late dogma of papal infallibility for which academic historian RC Cardinal Congar said there is not so much as a "seed" of in the first millennium Undivided Church:


Quote from: Vatican I
"9. ...we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema"

"...reject this... let him be anathema."


Despite the whole Church having universally rejected this for many centuries in papal oaths and Ecumenical Councils. Vatican I seems to anathematize much of its own historical past church by this proclamation, unless it is coming up with something de novo that has nothing to do with the past.  Wink

Similarly universal jurisdiction


Quote from: Vatican I
2.  If anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.


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« Reply #250 on: August 15, 2014, 03:59:29 PM »

Ekdikos, of course the man exercises the office, but just like when the bishops, sinners all, meet in an ecumenical council and define a doctrine, it's not really them, but the Holy Spirit acting, so we believe about the office of the Pope.
And yet, some of you believe Pope could be Heretic (Pope Hadrian II), some do not, some try to shut eyes... I am aware of Roman Catholic dogmatics... I am just not convinced them to be true...

It's not about the sins of both sides, brother.
Oh, you started invoking them...


It's about the huge body of doctrine and practice we still share. We believe you are an estranged part of us.
And we believe you have fallen out of us...
But why dont you a) drop Filioque b) interpret it in sense compatible with my signature....
Then we could go and say we share same faith...


It's not because that shared teaching and practice is big and powerful. It's because we accept it by faith as true.

Things we have in common are not problem... problem is what divide us...
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« Reply #251 on: August 15, 2014, 04:02:55 PM »

We didn't really excommunicate you. You left.

Oh give me a break!  Be honest with yourself on history there.  There was a mutual anathema.  And Vatican I still anathematizes.  Anathema=graceless heretic.  You can't have your cake and eat it.  Glass half full or half empty, it's still half!
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« Reply #252 on: August 15, 2014, 04:07:08 PM »

Ekdikos, again, the office of the Pope shares in the church's infallibility, not the man. So the Pope can be a private heretic. His job is to defend the faith of the church, its doctrines, not push his opinions.

The Council of Ferrara-Florence already has explained our wording of the Creed: "through the Son."

The Greek Catholics were never required by their acts of union with Rome to change their wording.

Not hypocritical: different expressions of the same faith. From the Father, through the Son.
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« Reply #253 on: August 15, 2014, 04:09:52 PM »

The excommunication was simply an acknowledgement that you left us.
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« Reply #254 on: August 15, 2014, 04:13:24 PM »

Ekdikos, the Council of Ferrara-Florence already has explained our wording of the Creed: "through the Son."
That is still not what we believe.

Trough the Son mean, in Orthodox doctrine, Father is aeternaly manifested through Son in Holy Spirit...  

The Greek Catholics were never required by their acts of union with Rome to change their wording.

 Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

Why did they change it then?

Not hypocritical: different expressions of the same faith. From the Father, through the Son.

Not really. In Orthodox teaching, Spirit proceeds from Father only. He is manifested from Father through Son...

and Filioque clause is: ex Patre Filioque procedit (From the Father and Son....)
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« Reply #255 on: August 15, 2014, 04:15:09 PM »

The reality is that the Eastern Church was the most forward with ecumenical efforts in the centuries after the schism. The message at Florence was unequivocal: accept the Latin understanding on all matters "to the 't'," with no room for dialogue. Submit or hellfire.
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« Reply #256 on: August 15, 2014, 04:17:34 PM »

The Catholic Church is clear that the filioque doesn't mean a Quaternity (two Holy Spirits, one from the Father, the other from the Son). Claims that it does are false.

The Greek Catholics added the filioque on their own because they thought it proved their loyalty to Rome. Rome didn't tell them to do that.
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« Reply #257 on: August 15, 2014, 04:18:51 PM »

There are Roman Catholics  Smiley

and then there are Roman Catholics  Roll Eyes

TYF is the latter.
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« Reply #258 on: August 15, 2014, 04:25:19 PM »

I don't think I'm Holy Joe or something. It's just that what little religion I have in my life is all Catholic and I will accept no substitutes.
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« Reply #259 on: August 15, 2014, 04:31:07 PM »

I don't think I'm Holy Joe or something. It's just that what little religion I have in my life is all Catholic and I will accept no substitutes.
And no one is expecting you to, but I don't know if it is a requirement as a Catholic to go to Orthodox forums and tell them that they are just a small sect in isolated parts of the world and the Orthodox should all just pack up and move to Russia and then wonder why people get ticked at you.  Your statements validate exactly the fears that so many Orthodox have of Catholics.  The Latin Church is commonly seen as the big bully that will act nice and then push its weight around rather than seeking to work together for positive effect.  The recent Popes have worked hard to dispel that notion, but it has not yet seemed to trickle down to the priests and laity.
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« Reply #260 on: August 15, 2014, 04:32:55 PM »

The Catholic Church is clear that the filioque doesn't mean a Quaternity (two Holy Spirits, one from the Father, the other from the Son). Claims that it does are false.
In case you missed.

Roman Catholic Dogma is that Person of Holy Spirit has ontological source in Persons of Father and Son as single principle. Teaching of Orthodox Church is, that Person of Holy Spirit has ontological source in Person of Father alone, but it is externaly manifested as coming from Father through Son....
Big difference. Point which St. Basil had in mind...


And Florence stated this:
Quote
"The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has His nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom He is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."

The Greek Catholics added the filioque on their own because they thought it proved their loyalty to Rome. Rome didn't tell them to do that.

Or they were forced to... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #261 on: August 15, 2014, 04:41:35 PM »

In my imperfect way I am trying to witness, because, exactly because of my background, I have some idea what I'm talking about, particularly to Western converts.

The "move to Russia" dare is obviously rhetorical but logical based on the hardline Orthodox opinion that we're frauds because, when it comes right down to it, we're not in their culture. That's making an idol of their culture, even though that culture's a good thing. (Every sin is aiming at an apparent good.)

No, I want all Eastern Christians, here and in their homelands, back in our holy mother, the church, and to remain among us in the West. Because the reasons you had for leaving just don't hold water, yet you are still a part of us, close to our hearts.

We're not trying to stamp out your traditions. Quite the opposite.

We did podkarpatska's family and others like them a horrible injustice but none of that was about our doctrine. The church has the authority to impose clerical celibacy on Eastern churches in Western countries, but we shouldn't have.

Most of our priests and laity barely know you are here. Sorry, that's how it is right now. Educated Catholics are working on that.

Right, Ekdikos: single principle. Not a Quaternity. Different theological opinions. No sale on the schism of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #262 on: August 15, 2014, 04:45:22 PM »

Quote
Right, Ekdikos: single principle. Not a Quaternity. Different theological opinions. No sale on the schism of the Orthodox.
That's not the issue, though. The Latins do not espouse "From the Father through the Son" as per Florence, they teach that the Spirit ontologically proceeds from both Father AND Son. That is the issue, not "principles."
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« Reply #263 on: August 15, 2014, 04:50:14 PM »

Sounds like a lame nerd excuse to remain apart.

The defensiveness of the East in its claims to be the "true church" is an example of its weakness. Its inability to recognize that it is a piece of the broader church - an inability nurtured by sultans and tsars who preferred a divided Christendom to a united one - is not a sign of strength. It is just silly. You have a bunch of Popes as saints in your calendars, and even the dreaded St. Augustine is a saint to you - "Blessed Augustine" as he is known.
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« Reply #264 on: August 15, 2014, 04:57:05 PM »

In my imperfect way I am trying to witness, because, exactly because of my background, I have some idea what I'm talking about, particularly to Western converts.

The "move to Russia" dare is obviously rhetorical but logical based on the hardline Orthodox opinion that we're frauds because, when it comes right down to it, we're not in their culture. That's making an idol of their culture, even though that culture's a good thing. (Every sin is aiming at an apparent good.)

No, I want all Eastern Christians, here and in their homelands, back in our holy mother, the church, and to remain among us in the West. Because the reasons you had for leaving just don't hold water, yet you are still a part of us, close to our hearts.

We're not trying to stamp out your traditions. Quite the opposite.

We did podkarpatska's family and others like them a horrible injustice but none of that was about our doctrine. The church has the authority to impose clerical celibacy on Eastern churches in Western countries, but we shouldn't have.

Most of our priests and laity barely know you are here. Sorry, that's how it is right now. Educated Catholics are working on that.

Right, Ekdikos: single principle. Not a Quaternity. Different theological opinions. No sale on the schism of the Orthodox.
We don't want to be witnessed to. We aren't pagans that need to learn about Jesus. Perhaps the reasons don't hold water for you, but for us, they matter a great deal.  Perhaps one of the biggest reasons for the schism was the historic condesension that came the Vatican, it allowed no room for dialogue or discussion. It was imperialist and declaratory. Much of Catholicism still treats Orthodoxy that same way. We are 4 of the 5 ancient sees of the Church, yet you still feel the need to "evangelize" us.
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« Reply #265 on: August 15, 2014, 05:00:06 PM »

Sounds like a lame nerd excuse to remain apart.

The defensiveness of the East in its claims to be the "true church" is an example of its weakness. Its inability to recognize that it is a piece of the broader church - an inability nurtured by sultans and tsars who preferred a divided Christendom to a united one - is not a sign of strength. It is just silly. You have a bunch of Popes as saints in your calendars, and even the dreaded St. Augustine is a saint to you - "Blessed Augustine" as he is known.
You know, the issue can be resolved just as easily as you make it sound the other way around. Rome gives up its "lame nerd excuses" for staying apart and accepts Orthodox teaching, resolving to remain the Patriarchate of the West and ONLY Patriarchate of the West. That would be wonderful.

The real issue in that regard is that Rome has turned a local ecclesiological custom into a dogmatic tenant of their faith.
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« Reply #266 on: August 15, 2014, 05:05:08 PM »

And the Greek Emperor was Mr. Humility. Try again.

We're not Episcopalians: we can't revoke defined doctrine. The Pope's share in the church's infallibility is a non-negotiable.

Ever been to a Melkite or Russian Catholic (all non-Russian congregations: born Roman Riters) church? Might open your eyes. We have the unlatinized forms of the Byzantine Rite as well as the latinized forms our people (such as the Ukrainians and the Rusyns) adopted on their own.

I can think of only one Orthodox shop that does something like our Mass, unbyzantinized, St. Augustine's, Denver, and I understand all the Antiochian Western Riters are pressured to byzantinize. Because Orthodoxy exists to hate the West.
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« Reply #267 on: August 15, 2014, 05:17:41 PM »

The excommunication was simply an acknowledgement that you left us.
And you're complaining we're exclusive?

Quote
You left us!

No! You left us!

We're a bigger Church!

Follow the narrow road!

Ya, the road of satraps and czars!

Says the inquisitor!


I mean really?  Really?
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« Reply #268 on: August 15, 2014, 05:22:38 PM »

Another one for the books:

"We don't call you graceless heretics."
"Why do you anathematize us?"
"The anathema is there because you left us!"

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« Reply #269 on: August 15, 2014, 05:26:38 PM »



Right, Ekdikos: single principle. Not a Quaternity. Different theological opinions. No sale on the schism of the Orthodox.

Ehm you realy dont get issue? Nobody acused you of Quaternity... Oh by the way Arianism was also different theological opinion...
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