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Author Topic: What is the Orthodox Church odds with Rome's papacy and how do Catholics...  (Read 4745 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 31, 2014, 10:01:51 PM »

Hi.

I'm asking this because I want to start from the beginning, knowing what are the Orthodox Church odds with the claim of the Papacy and how do Catholics response to.

So, if you can summarise it, what are the most commons objections of the Orthodox Church against Rome's papacy ?

And how do you Catholics response to these objections ?

( I'm asking all these again because I've mentioned earlier that I finally accepted Tradition as valid and authoritative source for the Church...etc ) and in the light of that, I want to rethink some things.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 01:50:49 AM »

Raylight, old son, you do get around.
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 02:38:13 AM »

Raylight, old son, you do get around.

Dad  Grin  I do get around because I'm trying to find The One.

I need to know what exactly are the objections of the Orthodox Church against the papacy of Rome so then I will get more clear picture.

Some say they don't have problem with the papacy itself, but how it came to be with the years. Other have problem with the papacy itself. and there is always those in between.

PS: I said already that I just accepted Holy Tradition and its authority, therefor I need to look at things under the light of that Tradition. Not under the light of Ralylight  Wink

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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2014, 02:51:11 AM »

Quote
I need to know what exactly are the objections of the Orthodox Church against the papacy of Rome so then I will get more clear picture.

That the Papacy is too authoritarian, that it's too centralized and it harms Church unity. And especially that it cannot claim to be "infallible" or the "Vicar of Christ".
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 02:52:38 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2014, 02:54:29 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2014, 09:08:12 AM »

Actually it is Rome that have odds with the sovereignity of governance of the Holy Spirit.

They can't believe that He would or could govern and teach the Church in the world directly as Christ promised (John 14:15-17;25-27).

So this particular lack of faith eventually gained the form of trusting a single man - the then primate of the Church - to be a kind of anchor and reference amidst the turbulences of Church life. Later, when Men failed as we always do, despair led people to believe a book, the Bible, to be that anchor. Certainly an object would not act human and disappoint us like the popes did. We just forgot that it still needed human interpreters.

Either our hope is in the Holy Spirit based on our faith on Jesus Christ's promises, or we are set for a rough landing.

I believe the quote below marks what Romans and Protestants feel discomfortable about with reality:

“What I see around me would drive me insane if I did not know that no matter what happens, God will have the last word.” - Elder Paisios

They want to hear that last word here and now. They don't want to go through church life with all it's overwhelming complexities and tensions. So one needs either an infallible bishop or an inerrant book to be a beacon of stability in a world of instability.
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2014, 09:55:29 AM »

^ Actually, Fabio, we Catholics do believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, even when Bishops and Popes fail to live up to their calling.


How to Orthodox and Catholics deal with matter pertaining to the Papacy? For the most part, the conversation goes something like this.

Catholic Bob: We are right

Orthodox Joe: No we are right

Catholic Bob: No are right

Orthodox Joe: No we are right...

ad infinitum.

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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2014, 10:09:57 AM »

^ Actually, Fabio, we Catholics do believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, even when Bishops and Popes fail to live up to their calling.


How to Orthodox and Catholics deal with matter pertaining to the Papacy? For the most part, the conversation goes something like this.

Catholic Bob: We are right

Orthodox Joe: No we are right

Catholic Bob: No are right

Orthodox Joe: No we are right...

ad infinitum.



Papist,
faith as in feelings and intellectual articulation of them, probably.

Faith as in acts that reflect in Church structure and governance no. The very founding act of the Roman church is that in matters of dogma and morality the last word will be the Pope's. The same goes for governance with its concept of universal and supreme jurisdiction.

Regardless of how individual RCs feel, and regardless of historical records of orthodox catholic tradition, in act and fact, the RC exists as a firm internally organized structure that, contradicting those feelings and records, does not expect -or even want- any real influx of power from God in its destiny as an institution. The world out there is dangerous and instable... we need to be a... rock! That this image is so important and pervasive in Roman Church just shows the social-psychological undercurrents that go through it.

It is clearly something out of the confusion from witnessing the fall of Roman civilization in the West, of people who kept asking for many centuries "where is God to put order in all this?" and one day said "You know what, God's not doing anything, we'll do it ourselves".

Saint Augustine is the best representative of a still Orthodox mind asking the question, and all the architects of the Holy Roman Empire and of the Medieval Gregorian reforms represent the already heterodox minds taking that latter attitude.

God can make us walk even over water, even in the middle of the storm, with no need of any solid reference or ground. When Peter forgot that, he fell. And needed to be taken back to the ship he had left. In the last 1000 years, "Peter" has been under the water and Christ has been calling him to go back to the ship. But as long as he thinks he is the rock himself, he will just sink deeper.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 10:18:39 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 11:18:16 AM »

Hi.

I'm asking this because I want to start from the beginning, knowing what are the Orthodox Church odds with the claim of the Papacy and how do Catholics response to.

So, if you can summarise it, what are the most commons objections of the Orthodox Church against Rome's papacy ?

And how do you Catholics response to these objections ?

( I'm asking all these again because I've mentioned earlier that I finally accepted Tradition as valid and authoritative source for the Church...etc ) and in the light of that, I want to rethink some things.

Raylight, summarizing will not help you get this out of your system.
Here are some past threads, and if you read them, and you can summarize them, then we should make it a sticky.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21719.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36757.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45039.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41635.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43289.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44229.0.html

I would look for relevant threads with posters that include Ialmisry, JoeS/JoeS2, Elijamaria, Papist, Luberti, Mardukum (a must), Irish Hermit, Apotheoun, Cavaradossi, and there are some more that are worthwhile but I my memory is bad.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 02:32:27 PM »

Hi.

I'm asking this because I want to start from the beginning, knowing what are the Orthodox Church odds with the claim of the Papacy and how do Catholics response to.

So, if you can summarise it, what are the most commons objections of the Orthodox Church against Rome's papacy ?

And how do you Catholics response to these objections ?

( I'm asking all these again because I've mentioned earlier that I finally accepted Tradition as valid and authoritative source for the Church...etc ) and in the light of that, I want to rethink some things.

The most common objection is that the office of the papacy is neither essential to the life of the Church or Apostolic in practice.
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 03:21:38 PM »

Hi.

I'm asking this because I want to start from the beginning, knowing what are the Orthodox Church odds with the claim of the Papacy and how do Catholics response to.

So, if you can summarise it, what are the most commons objections of the Orthodox Church against Rome's papacy ?

And how do you Catholics response to these objections ?

( I'm asking all these again because I've mentioned earlier that I finally accepted Tradition as valid and authoritative source for the Church...etc ) and in the light of that, I want to rethink some things.

The most common objection is that the office of the papacy is neither essential to the life of the Church or Apostolic in practice.


Essential.
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 04:47:01 PM »

Quote
I need to know what exactly are the objections of the Orthodox Church against the papacy of Rome so then I will get more clear picture.

That the Papacy is too authoritarian, that it's too centralized and it harms Church unity. And especially that it cannot claim to be "infallible" or the "Vicar of Christ".

It is the universal governing authority over other bishops and the church that developed in the West with which the Orthodox Church takes issue, and it was a development, even Roman Catholic historians report the Papacy's governing role over the church was an evolution. Rome's claim to being the "Magisterium," the centralized teaching authority, is disputed by the Orthodox Church likewise, as it considers each bishop to hold such authority within his diocese.

The Eastern Churches considered the Church of Rome and the see of St. Peter to be the most honored throne of the Church due to it being situated likewise in the capital of the Empire. It viewed his position as it viewed the Church of Constantinople in the East--after the early 4th century, as "the Elder See," the see responsible for coordinating affairs common to the Holy Churches, but not intruding into the internal affairs of the other Patriarchates, being also responsible to hear appeals from within the Holy Churches. While the title was never applied to the Bishop of Rome, the Pope was respected as essentially a "First Among Equals." The Orthodox Church wholly disputes Papal Infallibility, "infallibility" in Orthodoxy being of the Ecumenical Synods (Councils)--assemblies of the universal episcopate, once their proclamations are favorably received by the greater church and ratified by a subsequent Synod.

The Pope's 1014 addition of the notorious "que ex Patri Filioque procedit," "who proceeds from the Father and the Son" addition to the 8th Article of the Symbol of Faith as proclaimed in 381 by the 2nd Ecumenical Synod, is as much disputed by the Orthodox Church not just for its theological error--its variance from scripture, but for the audacious behavior of one bishop of the Church, the Pope of Rome, to attempt to supplement and change the work of an Ecumenical Synod, 633 years after the synodal proclamation no less.

The Orthodox Church further disagrees with all the "innovations" of the West since the tradition and practices of the early church, use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist, baptism by aspersion, the "Immaculate Conception" of the Virgin Mary, the dogmatic proclamation of her bodily Assumption into heaven, although Orthodox hymnology commemorates her ascension into heaven following her "Falling Asleep," her passing from this life; in Orthodoxy this is within the realm of a "Theological Opinion," not supported by scripture and not dogmatic. Any Papal proclamations of dogma are disputed by the Orthodox, as Orthodoxy maintains the tradition of the first millennium of that dogmatic teaching must be supported by scripture and proclaimed by an Ecumenical Synod.
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 02:43:01 AM »

Beware of the biases people have here. 

I note that there are several threads where non-catholics tell you what catholic practices and beliefs are.  Remember:  if you want to know what an RC believes, then ask an RC.  Good sources are the catholic catechism and the catholic encyclopedia.  Both are online, just google them.

One amusing thread said the papacy is too authoritarian and hurts church unity.  The Catholics that feel the Pope is too authoritarian are the ones that do not like what the See of Peter teaches.  We call these people cafeteria catholics - they pick and choose what they want to believe or they follow their own doctrines.  Its much like a person going through a cafeteria line picking and choosing their foods.  If you dig a little deeper, these same people think you should be able to divorce and remarry or they think women should be allowed to be Priests or they take issue with what the church teaches about birth control and abortion or homosexual marriage etc etc.

These are the same people who leave the RC church, and frankly, I'm not sorry to see them go. They can go join churches that don't preach against these things or see no wrong in them

Regarding church unity, the Pope unifies Roman Catholics.  Look at the disunity of other groups.  They are divided because they have no central authority.  When church leaders disagree - and there has been vigorous disagreement over the two thousand years of Christianity- who settles the issue?  The Holy Spirit?  The Bible?  Tradition? 

I think the person who said the pope hurts church unity really meant that the Papacy is a stumbling block to people becoming Catholic. RCs are obviously much more visibly unified than the groups outside of the RC Church.
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 02:48:16 AM »

...

... who settles the issue? The Holy Spirit? The Bible? Tradition?

...

Oh no! Anything but those!
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 08:50:26 AM »


Regarding church unity, the Pope unifies Roman Catholics.  Look at the disunity of other groups.  They are divided because they have no central authority.  When church leaders disagree - and there has been vigorous disagreement over the two thousand years of Christianity- who settles the issue?  The Holy Spirit?  The Bible?  Tradition? 

Thank you for bringing evidence to my point.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,59966.msg1166098.html#msg1166098
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2014, 12:02:39 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2014, 12:33:24 PM »

...

... who settles the issue? The Holy Spirit? The Bible? Tradition?

...

Oh no! Anything but those!

I agree.  Stuff written in books, stuff not written in books, and the Holy Spirit are not enough to administer the Body of Christ.  What we need are Italians.  They always make everything better.
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2014, 01:56:11 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2014, 02:16:57 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.

Counting as Orthodoxy's Rome's losses after the Schism is -- desperation on your part. Regardless, you're taking my post out of its context -- chazman48's post's grandiose claims to a unique Roman power of unity.
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2014, 02:28:32 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.

Counting as Orthodoxy's Rome's losses after the Schism is -- desperation on your part. Regardless, you're taking my post out of its context -- chazman48's post's grandiose claims to a unique Roman power of unity.

1.1 billion is the Roman communion alone. No counting of Rome's losses. This whole argument is desperate. There are many other stronger approaches you could use
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2014, 02:33:04 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.

Rather than quitting oc.net, join us for things we do agree on.  If you have something you wish we would pray for you on, share it.  We certainly may need your prayers.

My dear friend, we disagree, but we shouldn't be disagreeable.  There is a lot more that you unites you and I than divides us.  I would certainly enjoy your presence here.  What if we need a good voice to tell us about things going on in South Africa?

If you need a break, take one.  But you should not leave Papist alone.   Wink
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2014, 10:21:28 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.

Counting as Orthodoxy's Rome's losses after the Schism is -- desperation on your part. Regardless, you're taking my post out of its context -- chazman48's post's grandiose claims to a unique Roman power of unity.


Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

As I mentioned, the people who don't like it go off and create their own sect.  Are we supposed to accept everyone's teaching? - any bonehead that opens a Bible and thinks he has come to a new truth?  There are lots and lots of people like this in Protestant Churches - its the reason why there are thousands of different denominations.  

What do the Orthodox do when a Church leader begins to teach - and persists in teaching - something that contradicts their two thousand years of Tradition?  I only need to look at your history or talk to any of your leaders to find out what you do - you do what our authorities do.  I don't think your authorities allow the person to continue to lead the flock astray.  Because the Orthodox remove heretical leaders does that make you divisive?  Does that mean you are disunified?  Your leaders are protecting the flock and preserving the faith - which is what they should be doing.  Wouldn't it be sinful if they didn't protect the flock and preserve the Faith?  

Your authorities and our authorities do the same things in handling heresy or dissident groups.  According to you, when the RC Church does it though RC Church is divisive.

From what you've written, it sounds like you are blinded by your biases.  Don't worry though, in 10 years you will not be so biased I think.
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2014, 10:31:43 PM »

Saying that Rome knows how to preserve unity is a bit of a laugh (a bitter laugh). -- No fewer than 800 million Christians have been lost to Rome due to her methods of "preserving unity" (as a reminder, the number of the Christians who she's kept is a seventh or eighth of that). A surgeon who prided himself on preserving only an arm would not be admired.

If we are to use the same reasoning and seeing that orthodox view all apostolic churches as breakaways of their church, the orthodox model of unity has lost 1.1 billion Christians at least! This is a faulty argument you are making. This is my last contribution to this thread as I actually don't want to debate and I'm actually thinking of quitting OC.net so a debate would only prolong my stay if I decide to quit.

Rather than quitting oc.net, join us for things we do agree on.  If you have something you wish we would pray for you on, share it.  We certainly may need your prayers.

My dear friend, we disagree, but we shouldn't be disagreeable.  There is a lot more that you unites you and I than divides us.  I would certainly enjoy your presence here.  What if we need a good voice to tell us about things going on in South Africa?

If you need a break, take one.  But you should not leave Papist alone.   Wink



Yes don't leave us - we will be like wolves among a flock of sheep
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2014, 11:05:55 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  



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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2014, 11:47:57 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where? 

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2014, 11:58:42 PM »

Yes don't leave us - we will be like wolves among a flock of sheep

Oh yeah, we're just so afraid of online Catholics telling us that we're wrong. Truly, we are just going to cling to our false truth and herd mentality. Care to throw in an "Orthodox are too ethnic" comment that reeks of a superiority complex, too?

And you wonder why union isn't as well received in any of the three big Eastern Churches than in the West, oy vey...
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2014, 02:24:04 AM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 02:27:52 AM by Raylight » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2014, 02:14:01 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2014, 03:10:40 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.

Simply because he highlighted an uncomfortable dose of information about your communion and had stats to back it up? The problem clearly is not a catholic or orthodox problem but a western one
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2014, 04:19:30 PM »

Yes don't leave us - we will be like wolves among a flock of sheep

Oh yeah, we're just so afraid of online Catholics telling us that we're wrong. Truly, we are just going to cling to our false truth and herd mentality. Care to throw in an "Orthodox are too ethnic" comment that reeks of a superiority complex, too?

And you wonder why union isn't as well received in any of the three big Eastern Churches than in the West, oy vey...

The wolf among sheep comment was my way of saying to the Orthodox we must appear to be wolves.  It was a shot at being humorous.

Lighten up.

If you want to know, I am very attracted to the richness of the Orthodox symbols and liturgy.  Truly I wish we had more of what you have.  We have RCs that only attend the Latin Mass, and I think those people prefer it because it has a little more of the rich symbolism which is lacking in our regular Mass. Our people have a hunger for what you have. 

I look forward to attending a Greek Orthodox festival at the end of this month here in Columbus.  I'm hoping they open the Church up and give tours.
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2014, 05:50:29 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.

Oh believe me, I wanted to rebuke Mor Ephrem and his post where he shared photos with the one dancing people. I find it silly how people just focus on that dancing and make it a big deal out of nothing, where all these dancing stuff are very very very small and as someone told me, the Church is trying to stop it, and what this person said to me, reminded me of what I already read in one of the books I have where it said too that the Church is trying to limit or stop this type of practices. Therefor I see no reason to bring that type of photos over and over as if it is the majority.

I was just commenting on what you said which you meant by it that Catholics don't even agree with the Vatican teachings and to you that seems there is no unity, so I and based on what I know and what I read, found that I need to show that even Orthodox are the same.

Sam, I didn't mean to attack you or attack the Orthodox Church, the Church that I care about and respect, but to care, love and respect doesn't mean to have blind eyes. Also if you know my history here, you will find that I was very harsh on the Catholic Church and even Catholics, and sometimes I feel I was rude in what I said against them.



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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2014, 08:39:23 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.

Simply because he highlighted an uncomfortable dose of information about your communion and had stats to back it up? The problem clearly is not a catholic or orthodox problem but a western one.

Good! Then I can hope Catholic triumphalists here stop harrying us to confess that papacy is the Answer and return to realistic discussion.
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2014, 09:20:43 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.

Simply because he highlighted an uncomfortable dose of information about your communion and had stats to back it up? The problem clearly is not a catholic or orthodox problem but a western one

His reply was off topic. This forum deals with the Papacy and how Orthodox and Catholics respond to it. If Raylight wants to start a thread about Orthodox unity he can. I agree that this problem is a Western one, in general, but that wouldn't explain why Catholicism's hold on South America is slipping.
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2014, 09:27:13 PM »

Grandiose claims to unity?  I shouldn't waste my time arguing with people whose biases deny what is clearly in front of them.  I'm sorry, I don't understand how you deny the unity of the catholic church.  You can go to a catholic church anywhere in the world, and its the same church - the same doctrines, the same teachings.  I can go to France, Spain, South America, North America, Canada, the Phillipeans, England, Portugal, and its the same Mass, the same seven sacraments, the same moral teaching.  I don't know where you come to believe we are divided.  Can you point out where?  

The huge gulf between the Vatican's teaching on contraceptives and the attitudes of the majority of laity in the Western world (and parts of South America) is a good place to start. That, and the fact that neither Hans Küng nor any other dissident theologian of the 20th century was defrocked or anathematized.

I need to comment on this Sam.

" 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?..."

Catholics and Orthodox are on the same boat, it is not like Orthodox Christians in the West are any better. Polls show that big numbers of Orthodox Christian don't believe in Hell, Heaven and even life after death.

Here are some facts:

Percent that believe in Hell      50.5% ( Oh guess what, I think Hell doesn't exist and Jesus was joking when He talked about it )

Percent that believe in Heaven      73.2%.

Percent that believe in life after death      69.3%.

Percent that attend religious services at least once a week      32.1%.

Now I'm sure the Orthodox Church is so clear that there is Hell, Heaven and life after death.

http://www.thearda.com/Denoms/Families/profilecompare.asp?d=2201&d=&d=&d=&d=

Raylight, the issue dealt with chazman48's claim that the Papacy provides a better way of facilitating unity, not that the Orthodox way was inherently better or worse. In the quote, chazman48 asks if someone to point out to him where the Catholic Church is divided, I was only answering his request. I don't see you going out of your way to rebuke Mor, when his post only pointed out the same thing with pictures.

That being said, I have gone out of my way in the past to defend you on this forum and give you the benefit of the doubt no matter what question you ask or how many presumptions you have carried into your postings on here. Good luck with your search for truth and may God bless you, but I'll be thinking twice before posting on one of your topics again.

Oh believe me, I wanted to rebuke Mor Ephrem and his post where he shared photos with the one dancing people. I find it silly how people just focus on that dancing and make it a big deal out of nothing, where all these dancing stuff are very very very small and as someone told me, the Church is trying to stop it, and what this person said to me, reminded me of what I already read in one of the books I have where it said too that the Church is trying to limit or stop this type of practices. Therefor I see no reason to bring that type of photos over and over as if it is the majority.

I was just commenting on what you said which you meant by it that Catholics don't even agree with the Vatican teachings and to you that seems there is no unity, so I and based on what I know and what I read, found that I need to show that even Orthodox are the same.

Sam, I didn't mean to attack you or attack the Orthodox Church, the Church that I care about and respect, but to care, love and respect doesn't mean to have blind eyes. Also if you know my history here, you will find that I was very harsh on the Catholic Church and even Catholics, and sometimes I feel I was rude in what I said against them.


I apologize, I overacted.
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2014, 11:00:23 PM »

Oh believe me, I wanted to rebuke Mor Ephrem and his post where he shared photos with the one dancing people. I find it silly how people just focus on that dancing and make it a big deal out of nothing, where all these dancing stuff are very very very small and as someone told me, the Church is trying to stop it, and what this person said to me, reminded me of what I already read in one of the books I have where it said too that the Church is trying to limit or stop this type of practices. Therefor I see no reason to bring that type of photos over and over as if it is the majority.

My point was not to complain about dancing the Tango at Mass.  The celebrant of both Masses was Pope Francis.  That was the point.  If even the same celebrant cannot celebrate "the same Mass" in two different continents with the required rubrics and basic reverence, and same celebrant happens to be the focus of unity in his denomination, then all that talk about "same Mass" throughout the world, "same teaching", etc. is just that: empty and vain talk.  I could tear apart such claims quite easily and thoroughly, but I like pictures.   
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2014, 11:18:26 PM »

Oh believe me, I wanted to rebuke Mor Ephrem and his post where he shared photos with the one dancing people. I find it silly how people just focus on that dancing and make it a big deal out of nothing, where all these dancing stuff are very very very small and as someone told me, the Church is trying to stop it, and what this person said to me, reminded me of what I already read in one of the books I have where it said too that the Church is trying to limit or stop this type of practices. Therefor I see no reason to bring that type of photos over and over as if it is the majority.

My point was not to complain about dancing the Tango at Mass.  The celebrant of both Masses was Pope Francis.  That was the point.  If even the same celebrant cannot celebrate "the same Mass" in two different continents with the required rubrics and basic reverence, and same celebrant happens to be the focus of unity in his denomination, then all that talk about "same Mass" throughout the world, "same teaching", etc. is just that: empty and vain talk.  I could tear apart such claims quite easily and thoroughly, but I like pictures.   

It would seem that Eastern Catholics would also have to agree with Mor that the "same Mass" argument is...rather...hollow.
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2014, 11:33:18 PM »

It would seem that Eastern Catholics would also have to agree with Mor that the "same Mass" argument is...rather...hollow.

Right.  Even in the Roman Church it wasn't the same Mass everywhere always, except in the minds of 19th and 20th century apologists.  There have always been local calendars, local rites, rites of the religious orders, etc.  That continues even now.  Add the Eastern Catholics into the picture as an equal party (and not simply the token "Eastern lung"), and "same this and same that" claims are even sillier. 
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2014, 11:56:28 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2014, 11:57:46 PM »

It would seem that Eastern Catholics would also have to agree with Mor that the "same Mass" argument is...rather...hollow.

Right.  Even in the Roman Church it wasn't the same Mass everywhere always, except in the minds of 19th and 20th century apologists.  There have always been local calendars, local rites, rites of the religious orders, etc.  That continues even now.  Add the Eastern Catholics into the picture as an equal party (and not simply the token "Eastern lung"), and "same this and same that" claims are even sillier. 

Except, unless it is, it isn't a mass or in the lingo Odox prefer, a DL.
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2014, 11:59:53 PM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2014, 12:03:50 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.

You don't read the Bible much?
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2014, 12:04:32 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.

You don't read the Bible much?

You don't Tradition much?
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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 12:06:00 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.

You don't read the Bible much?

You don't Tradition much?

Exactly, what about St. Mary Magdalen, Equal to the Apostles.

Or St. Olga, Equal to the Apostles.
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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2014, 12:11:30 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.

You don't read the Bible much?

Matthew 18:18
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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2014, 12:14:28 AM »

Christ gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose, not just to Peter.

So women can be Popes? So why all the arguing over altar girls?

The power was only given to the 12, all of whom were male.

You don't read the Bible much?

You don't Tradition much?

Exactly, what about St. Mary Magdalen, Equal to the Apostles.

Or St. Olga, Equal to the Apostles.

You missed my point entirely and are choosing to focus on titles and semantics.

Only to the 12 Apostles was the power to bind and loose given, and, as Tradition attests to, this power was transferred to the Episcopate through ordination. Why is this so hard a case to make?
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