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Author Topic: The Church build upon Peter or upon his faith confession.  (Read 725 times) Average Rating: 0
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2014, 07:54:07 PM »

In no way is St. Optatus suggesting that Rome is an eternal chair that has to be maintained.  He is maintaining that Rome is the chair of the chief of the Apostles, who was given the title "Cephas".  This title is the chair upon which all Apostles base their Church.

Suppose, we have a Donatist in Egypt.  An Egyptian bishop can easily say:

You cannot then deny that you do know that upon Peter first, who sent Mark to the City of Alexandria, was bestowed the Episcopal Chair [Cathedra], on which sat Peter, the Head of all the Apostles (for which reason he was called Cephas), that, in this one Chair, unity should be preserved by all, lest the other Apostles might claim--each for himself--separate Chairs, so that he who should set up a second Chair against the unique Chair would already be a schismatic and a sinner. Well then, on the one Chair, which is the first of the Endowments, Peter was the first to sit.

You and I cannot claim this quote means the very city of Rome must be existent for the Church to be the Church.  Rome is an accident, not a particularity of the Church.  This very seat, the Episcopal Chair, the Cathedra is the binding and loosing, the keys of heaven, granted to every bishop in the universal church.  Later, St. Optatus writes, ridiculing the Donatists:

So, of the above-mentioned Endowments, the Cathedra is, as we have said, the first, which we have proved to be ours, through Peter, and which draws to itself the ANGEL ----unless, perchance, you claim him for yourselves, and have him shut up somewhere or other. Send him out if you can, and let him exclude from his communion seven angels, our colleagues in Asia, to whose churches wrote the Apostle John----churches with which you cannot prove that you have any intercourse whatsoever.

Optatus is not the bishop of Rome, but he receives his authority through Peter.  Every Church has an angel.  The chair of Peter has this angel.  If Donatists claim this angel for itself, let them prove that this Angel is separate in communion from the angels of the churches established by St. John.

Except that the idea of Sacerdortal unity held in Rome via Peter is not unique to St.Optatus but is expressed amongst many fathers, eastern and western so patriarchate is not a factor nevermind that in the eyes of the western church the idea of "patriarch" and "patriarchate" never really took sway and was looked upon as honorary. Your argument would work if an eastwrn bishop said such about Constantinople as in the east patriarchs were a real thing and a patriarchate was not honorary nor was the title honorary.

Except I haven't seen a single trace of it in any writings of the Fathers I have seen to date that cannot be interpreted alternatively. So, convince me.

So when st.irenaeus says "its a matter of necessity that every church agree with this church..."

or when St Cyprian explicitly says "to the chief Church whence priestly unity takes its source..."

Or when saint Optatus says anyone who breaks communion with the chair in role is a schismatic is not convincing?

It is either you are illiterate or you are going out of your way to deliberately ignore and play verbal gymnastics with any quote of these nature in order to brazenly claim that you see no evidence for the Catholic position.

Yes, of course St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, and St. Optatus said that, not because it's Rome, but because it's Orthodox.  Why are you so abrasive?  It's not helping you in this discussion.

Yes and because according to St irenaeus its is on account of the Church of Romes "Superior origin and preeminent authority". According to Optatus its because of Peter leaving his cathedra there. By virtue of Peter leaving his cathedra there and what Irenaeus says, St Cyprian goes onto says Rome is the see "from wither no errors can come". Indisputable doctrinal orthodoxy is a consequence of this unique petrine succession.

in simple, all of them don't mention Romes doctrinal orthodoxy but rather Peter as the basis for their claims about Rome.


Look I was not looking for a debate and who are we fooling, this debate has happened hundreds of times here so lets call it a day and leave with whatever we have or haven't gained from this discussion.

In Christ

Interpret 'preeminent authority' as preeminent authority and not as infallibility, and cathedra as the seat which all Bishops hold, then your argument is terminated.

"Peter" simply meant the holder of the Episcopate.

St. Irenaeus' saying about "necessity of agreeing' makes sense, since Rome was Orthodox. Cyprian was simply talking about the Episcopate. Opatus was only talking about setting up rival Episcopates in the city of Rome to contend against the Roman Episcopate.

Again, "Except I haven't seen a single trace of it in any writings of the Fathers I have seen to date that cannot be interpreted alternatively. So, convince me."
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« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2014, 07:56:08 PM »

Wandile, are you really reading Fathers' counsels not to ostracize Rome as directives to Rome to subjugate others? That would be like interpreting "Don't leave Porter off the planning committee" to mean "Porter will be taking over the planning." I won't say it's illiterate, to use your word, but I will say you're being very wishful.
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« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2014, 08:15:27 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ
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« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2014, 08:20:37 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ
And all of us are on Roman Catholic forum where w Orthodoxe constantly confront Roman Catholic hosts....
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« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2014, 08:23:05 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ
And all of us are on Roman Catholic forum where w Orthodoxe constantly confront Roman Catholic hosts....

Ok brother
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« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2014, 08:25:29 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ

If Roman Catholics made arguments that actually took into consideration every alternative objection, and still came away with their head raised high, then I'd consider their position to be worthwhile.

Otherwise, I don't consider it in the slightest.

Roman Catholics just assume their position is true, and never give good reasons for believing it. Instead, it's just numerous, irrelevant quotations about Peter.

Which to me, is no different than any other religious or political position that people have that they cannot justify. Talking points are not evidence. That's what I think.
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« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2014, 08:31:37 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ

If Roman Catholics made arguments that actually took into consideration every alternative objection, and still came away with their head raised high, then I'd consider their position to be worthwhile.

Otherwise, I don't consider it in the slightest.

Roman Catholics just assume their position is true, and never give good reasons for believing it. Instead, it's just numerous, irrelevant quotations about Peter.

Which to me, is no different than any other religious or political position that people have that they cannot justify. Talking points are not evidence. That's what I think.

To each their own opinion. Nothing wrong with that.
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« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2014, 05:58:48 PM »

So when st.irenaeus says "its a matter of necessity that every church agree with this church..."

or when St Cyprian explicitly says "to the chief Church whence priestly unity takes its source..."

Or when saint Optatus says anyone who breaks communion with the chair in role is a schismatic is not convincing?

It is either you are illiterate or you are going out of your way to deliberately ignore and play verbal gymnastics with any quote of these nature in order to brazenly claim that you see no evidence for the Catholic position.

Those are some rich words coming from somebody who is clearly illiterate in Latin. For example, the second quote you provide has clearly been mistranslated, something that both Cyrillic and I pointed out to you nearly a year ago.

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" ibid., 59:14).

Ibid?

Oh you...

umm want another version? Is there something I'm missing?

I've never heard of a patristic work called Ibid....

That's the translation source. The quote is from St Cyprian on the unity of the Church. I provided the Latin and English version

Ibid implies that there was quote that preceded it, and that implies that the same boring old prooftext-lists have been plagiarized yet again.

"Has its source" is a bad translation of "Unde...exorta est." "From which unity shone" would be more faithful to the original.

St Cyprian of Carthage:

Post ista adhuc pseudoepiscopo sibi ab haereticis constituto nauigare audent, et ad Petri Cathedram adque ad ecclesiam principalem unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est ab schismaticis et profanis litteras ferre, nec cogitare eos esse Romanos, quorum fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est, ad quos perfidia habere non possit accessum


With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" ibid., 59:14).

Nice try, but the verb operating in that clause, exorta est, is in the perfect/preterite, not the present (the present tense would read unde unitas sacerdotalis exoritur). It is probably best translated as, "the principal church where sacerdotal unity originated," (using the perfect, "has originated," here instead of the preterite makes very little sense grammatically in English).

So why, if you are so wise and literate that you can afford to ridicule your opponents as being illiterates, do you continue to use a proof text which is incorrectly translated? It seems quite dishonest.

The first quote you provide has a similar problem. In English, it seems like a great slam dunk case, but the Latin verb convenire can be translated in many ways, and that isn't even taking into account that the document is itself a translation from Greek to Latin.

On the quotation from St. Optatus: the context of the argument is that the Donatists confessed six marks of the church, one of these being the cathedra. St. Optatus' argument against them is essentially that they do not possess any of these endowments, specifically writing of the Seven Churches in Asia (which he likens to seven angels) that "Whatever is without the Seven Churches is outside and alien." (extra Septem Ecclesias quicquid foris est alienum est). The Latin translator here tries very hard to show that St. Optatus meant this only in a figurative sense, but then that only raises the question of why we should understand this merely in a figurative sense while supposing that what he wrote about the Cathedra should be taken literally.
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« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2014, 10:29:37 PM »

Guys, if you didn't see earlier, I'm done debating this topic. I will never be convinced by the orthodox arguments because , at least to me, they seem like verbal gymnastics... and I doubt you will be convinced by the catholic arguments. Its gets very repetitive so as much as there are calls for me to explain this and that, I will not. It will only prolong an argument I'm not too keen on having.

In Christ

Well then I think the feelings about your debates are also unconvincing.....I guess we can leave it at that and part ways in peace.
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