Author Topic: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?  (Read 682 times)

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Offline Regnare

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Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« on: July 27, 2014, 04:55:12 PM »
Coptic Catholic Patriarch:
Armenian Catholic Catholicos-Patriarch:
Syriac Catholic Patriarch:
Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch:

I've heard of Latinisations in the Eastern Catholic Churches (witness several of the above wearing the colours of Latin bishops and cardinals), but does anyone know why so many Oriental Catholic hierarchs feel the need to adopt klobuks and kalimavki rather than wear the garb of their own tradition?

Offline Peter J

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 09:56:46 PM »
Well, I guess you could say that I'm in the most byzantinized church (although that may not really count since our byzantinization happened so many centuries ago -- in fact, many centuries before Antiochians split into the AOC and the Melkite Catholic Church) but unfortunately I don't know the answer to your question.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 10:05:51 PM »
Whoops, misunderstood thread. :P
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 10:16:07 PM by Nephi »

Offline Antonis

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 10:07:23 PM »
Psh, everyone knows that you are either Latin or you're Byzantine (and if you're Byzantine, best be a little Latin too). That is enough to demonstrate Catholicity.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 10:09:28 PM »
What's the Byzantinization of the Ethiopian Church?
"Your children shall become the head, but you... will become the tail of the Church; therefore your judges will be those who have always preserved the Catholic Faith... they will be the Orthodox and true Catholics since they have never accepted heretics... but have remained zealous for the True Faith." (Western Bishops' Response to Pope Vigilius)

Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 10:29:02 PM »
Syriac Catholic Patriarch:
Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch:

I've heard of Latinisations in the Eastern Catholic Churches (witness several of the above wearing the colours of Latin bishops and cardinals), but does anyone know why so many Oriental Catholic hierarchs feel the need to adopt klobuks and kalimavki rather than wear the garb of their own tradition?

The Syrian Catholic Patriarch is not wearing anything his Orthodox counterpart wouldn't wear.  It's not common, but it is not unheard of.  For example:





The Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch is simply wearing an Ethiopian hat following the Roman colour scheme and a Roman cassock.  I'm not even sure the hat is uniquely Ethiopian, but I don't think it's exclusively Byzantine. 

Point taken regarding the others, however.
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 11:38:23 PM »
Thanks for the point about the Syrians, Mor.
As for the Ethiopians, I assumed that their clergy would wear something more like a Coptic/Syrian turban like that worn by Abune Mathias

or the elongated one worn by his predecessor, Abune Paulos http://www.antiochian.org/sites/default/files/images/abune_paulos_of_ethiopia.jpg (bigger image)
rather than that cylindrical one, which looks more like a kalimavkion. But it also looks like that hat being worn by the late patriarch Ignatius Zakka, so I guess you're right.

Offline Maria

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 11:58:53 PM »
Syriac Catholic Patriarch:
Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch:

I've heard of Latinisations in the Eastern Catholic Churches (witness several of the above wearing the colours of Latin bishops and cardinals), but does anyone know why so many Oriental Catholic hierarchs feel the need to adopt klobuks and kalimavki rather than wear the garb of their own tradition?

The Syrian Catholic Patriarch is not wearing anything his Orthodox counterpart wouldn't wear.  It's not common, but it is not unheard of.  For example:





The Ethiopian Catholic Patriarch is simply wearing an Ethiopian hat following the Roman colour scheme and a Roman cassock.  I'm not even sure the hat is uniquely Ethiopian, but I don't think it's exclusively Byzantine. 

Point taken regarding the others, however.

The last photo is that of a funeral, isn't it?
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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 12:29:36 AM »
The last photo is that of a funeral, isn't it?

Yes.  I'm not sure which bishop it is, but it's a funeral.
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Offline griego catolico

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 03:04:02 AM »
Byzantinization is not just limited to clerical clothing.
Here is a photo of the Armenian Catholic Catholicos celebrating the Holy Badarak:



If you look behind him, you will see a trikirion and dikirion on the altar.

In the following video at minute 3:23, you will see His Beatitude holding a dikirion while incensing. The trikirion is shown on the altar: http://gloria.tv/?media=102489&language=o9CtE7uatTg

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2014, 12:39:35 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Peter J

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2014, 02:53:06 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes. 

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2014, 03:08:18 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes. 

Do I believe my ears? You've become OC??
He means the Oriental rites are never good enough for the "Romes," meaning the city (the Roman Catholic Church) and the empire (the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church).
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2014, 03:15:40 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes. 

Do I believe my ears? You've become OC??
He means the Oriental rites are never good enough for the "Romes," meaning the city (the Roman Catholic Church) and the empire (the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church).

Yes, it was a bad joke. (I referred to the fact that he said "we're", as though speaking on behalf of Maronites etc.)
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2014, 03:16:31 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes. 

Do I believe my ears? You've become OC??
He means the Oriental rites are never good enough for the "Romes," meaning the city (the Roman Catholic Church) and the empire (the Chalcedonian Orthodox Church).

Yes, it was a bad joke. (I referred to the fact that he said "we're", as though speaking on behalf of Maronites etc.)
Oh, woops.  :P Sorry.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2014, 03:20:59 PM »
LOL.  We're never good enough for the Romes.  

P.S. it would be nice if we Melkites could get back to our Syriac roots ... although I think that would only happen in minute ways (if at all). It has, after all, been about a millennium and a half.
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Offline Ekdikos

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Re: Oriental Catholic Byzantinisations?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2014, 03:49:46 PM »
Byzantine rite is offshot of Antiochene. So is Byzantine music. Also, not all of Antiochene Christians were Syriacs... Do you think St. John Chrysostom was Syriac? (He brought Antiochene rite in Constantinople). Do you think John Damascene who lived in Damascus, and latter in Palestine was Constantinoplitan intruder (he wrote Octoehos), or maybe Cosmas of Mayum? Byzantine Rite got final shape in Palestine in Ancient Lavra.