Author Topic: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?  (Read 1009 times)

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Offline ShayneSwenson

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Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« on: July 26, 2014, 02:54:12 PM »
I know we are not required to believe private revelation, and I understand there are difficulties with private devotions and revelations in the Orthodox church as well. However, I feel like the vast majority of Catholic private revelation is the product of a psychosis, or an extremely over-active imagination. Divine Mercy comes to mind, as well as St. Louis De Montfort's True Devotion book. You all already know of my EXTREME disdain for Medjugorje, not to mention my growing suspicion of Fatima, as well as most Marian apparitions, barring Lourdes. There are so many just so stories that theologically only fit with the religious outlook at the time of the supposed locution. I dont doubt all, just most. Say 95%. It also seems like a cop-out when the church teaches that it is not required to believe such revelations to remain a faithful catholic, and then they actively promote all of them. Medjugorje was the straw that broke the camels back, and led me to consider Orthodox Christianity. The fact that so many catholics believe the Mother of God is actually appearing to those con artists on THEIR watch, makes me sick. I just have a really hard time when I read these strange "mystical" communications that seem to contradict each other, maybe not quite doctrinally(that I am aware of, apart from ol' medjugoogoo), but surely devotionally. Maybe its the remains of my scientific materialism that I have a hard time shaking. Maybe its a sliver of my remaining protestant mistrust. Maybe its just a good BS sensor. Thoughts welcome from an Orthodox, as well as a Catholic perspective.
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Offline Cidalia73

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 07:50:02 AM »
Looks like this is an older post (and there are no replies as of yet), but I'm inclined to agree with you.  I'm currently Catholic but perhaps not for much longer.  I will be attending an Orthodox church this Sunday (have spoken to the priest there).

I, too, take particular issue with Medjugorje (and how easily a lot of Catholics fall for it) as well as the Divine Mercy devotion.  All it took for me was skimming through a few passages in Sister Faustina's diary, and I was immediately turned off.  The Jesus of her revelations does not sound like the Jesus of the Bible.  The fact that Pope JP II approved it after it was placed on the index of prohibited books, elevated Faustina to sainthood (she may have been holy, but she was clearly mentally ill), and designated a feast day to the Divine Mercy makes me not feel very confident in the Catholic Church's ability to discern things and decide things for their followers. 


Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 08:24:43 AM »
I wouldn;t say merely private revelations, but a lot of things. But, that's for a separate thread.
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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 01:00:13 PM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.
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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 02:15:00 PM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

That struck a nerve.

Quote
Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

Quote
“They will make mistakes, they will make a blunder, this will pass! Perhaps even a letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine [of the Faith] will arrive for you, telling you that you said such or such thing. … But do not worry. Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward.”

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2013/06/pope-francis-downplays-threat-of-vatican-scrutiny-of-religious-orders/
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 03:05:46 PM »
I know we are not required to believe private revelation, and I understand there are difficulties with private devotions and revelations in the Orthodox church as well. However, I feel like the vast majority of Catholic private revelation is the product of a psychosis, or an extremely over-active imagination.

Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

This illustrates the great divide between Orthodox Catholicism and Roman Catholicism.   The former believes and professes that the fallen mind has become "unnatural."   A good way to view the Orthodox view of the fallen human dialectic, logic and perception of the created and uncreated is indeed "unnatural" and "fragmented" aka "psychotic."   But I'd be careful how one attributes this word to Roman Catholics.

There is understanding the fallen state of human  mind and heart (the dianoia and the noetic) as "psychotic" in a general sense, and there is attributing to Roman Catholics in a more modern clinical sense "psychotic."   The later is what comes through and is indeed uncharitable.   Wandile is reacting to this, and it should not be surprising that it chafes him.   However, the former understanding of "psychotic" is not only true of all humanity, (including many Orthodox) but I think is a unique way, true of Roman Catholic "theological" ventures at large, which embrace the fallen human state (the unnatural state of humanity and its unnatural psychosis) as natural (or at least only affecting the moral direction of man and not the intellectual capacity), and elevate the ability of fallen man to comprehend through the intellect natural theology, and through it to make assertions and logical inferences to God.  Since the RCC standard is that the human intellect and mind is capable of its own "God given" capacity to make conclusions and make "theology" based upon rationality and experience with the created (which is merely a copy of archetypes in the mind of God),      In such a state, men and women are deeply susceptible to delusion from demonic forces, and from their own fallen proclivities.

Because they teach and believe that the created are simply copies of the divine archetypes in the mind of God, they simply look at something created, make logical inferences from what they see, perceive and speculate about logically, and apply it to God.  Completely backwards according to Orthodox teachings.

All people do this(including Orthodox), not just RCC.   But the RCC have made it the basis of their theology and it does create a major issue in embracing the fallen human state.   While Orthodox individuals may do this to a greater or lesser degree, the whole of the faith repudiates such an approach.  The result of the RCC error is indeed an embrace of the unnatural psychotic state of fallen humanity...but it is not indicative of modern human clinical concepts of psychosis per se.

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 03:12:22 PM »
Onesimus, Natural theology is an integral part of Orthodox theology and is clearly not repudiated. Obviously, it isn't enough, nor is it immune to corruption and distortions from the fallen human mind, but your statement that it is repudiated in Orthodoxy is false. Read more Fathers and less Romanides.
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Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 03:15:27 PM »
Iconodule.   Though I'd love to make time for the discussion, time does not allow.  I believe you are incorrect insofar as the "natural theology" we speak of is NOT the "natural theology" of the RCC, nor is natural theology the basis of our theology.

True Natural theology can only come from the healing of the perceptive faculties via God.   The natural can only be seen rightly through the Spirit.   For the Fathers, natural theology comes from the santification and deification of the human person back to a more "natural" state which perceives the world rightly in the Spirit.

Other than that, You have no idea of what my reading patterns are.   But thanks for the advice.

God bless.   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:26:38 PM by Onesimus »

Offline William T

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 03:23:07 PM »
I know we are not required to believe private revelation, and I understand there are difficulties with private devotions and revelations in the Orthodox church as well. However, I feel like the vast majority of Catholic private revelation is the product of a psychosis, or an extremely over-active imagination.

Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

This illustrates the great divide between Orthodox Catholicism and Roman Catholicism.   The former believes and professes that the fallen mind has become "unnatural."   A good way to view the Orthodox view of the fallen human dialectic, logic and perception of the created and uncreated is indeed "unnatural" and "fragmented" aka "psychotic."   But I'd be careful how one attributes this word to Roman Catholics.

There is understanding the fallen state of human  mind and heart (the dianoia and the noetic) as "psychotic" in a general sense, and there is attributing to Roman Catholics in a more modern clinical sense "psychotic."   The later is what comes through and is indeed uncharitable.   Wandile is reacting to this, and it should not be surprising that it chafes him.   However, the former understanding of "psychotic" is not only true of all humanity, (including many Orthodox) but I think is a unique way, true of Roman Catholic "theological" ventures at large, which embrace the fallen human state (the unnatural state of humanity and its unnatural psychosis) as natural (or at least only affecting the moral direction of man and not the intellectual capacity), and elevate the ability of fallen man to comprehend through the intellect natural theology, and through it to make assertions and logical inferences to God.  Since the RCC standard is that the human intellect and mind is capable of its own "God given" capacity to make conclusions and make "theology" based upon rationality and experience with the created (which is merely a copy of archetypes in the mind of God),      In such a state, men and women are deeply susceptible to delusion from demonic forces, and from their own fallen proclivities.

Because they teach and believe that the created are simply copies of the divine archetypes in the mind of God, they simply look at something created, make logical inferences from what they see, perceive and speculate about logically, and apply it to God.  Completely backwards according to Orthodox teachings.

All people do this(including Orthodox), not just RCC.   But the RCC have made it the basis of their theology and it does create a major issue in embracing the fallen human state.   While Orthodox individuals may do this to a greater or lesser degree, the whole of the faith repudiates such an approach.  The result of the RCC error is indeed an embrace of the unnatural psychotic state of fallen humanity...but it is not indicative of modern human clinical concepts of psychosis per se.

This seems off to me.  Or at least too broad and vague.  Can you give citations please?  We are all inflicted with passions like pride, vainglory, and so forth that distort our perceptions, but I don't see how any of this writes off anything you seem to be writing off.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:23:33 PM by William T »

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 03:31:54 PM »
William.   

Sure thing.   What exactly is it that "seems off" to you so I can address it (and citations) directly?

The nature of discussions here is "broad and vague."   No one is going to read a treastice.  tl;dr.

Blessings.

Offline William T

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 03:47:41 PM »
William.   

Sure thing.   What exactly is it that "seems off" to you so I can address it (and citations) directly?

The nature of discussions here is "broad and vague."   No one is going to read a treastice.  tl;dr.

Blessings.

I guess the epistemic gulf and methods in RC and the presumption that the mind, while fundamentally good is still fallen.  They still have methods to reel in private revelation, and they still keep reason in check.

I get no one is trying to write a treatise, I'm not trying to hold you to pinpoint accuracy. If someone did that to me, I'd probably be condemned and out in the sticks hanging out with Nestorius, talking to some Bedouins. One of my problems I am starting to realize with a forum is how it is a poor method to convey very important things, yet tempts me into discussions that the medium doesn't allow, and tempts us to go into important areas that I have no business talking about yet do anyway. That bit of personal digression from the topic on hand is the reason why I asked for sources, I just wanted to follow your line of thought, as it isn't registering with me.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 03:51:26 PM by William T »

Offline Papist

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 04:16:57 PM »
Meh. That's how I feel about this particular topic.
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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 09:55:32 PM »
I always had a soft spot for the Bayside apparitions.  Their proponents made the best public access TV shows. 
Just grab them by prayer.


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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 10:09:33 PM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

I realize that. I realize that as long as you're in communion with the Pontiff, it doesn't matter what you believe.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." (St. Manuel II Palaiologos)

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 10:18:01 PM »
At this point, the only Catholic Marian apparition that I think is genuine is Guadalupe.

Medjugorje is a complete hoax. It's a shame how many people are taken in by it.
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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2016, 03:13:07 AM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

That struck a nerve.
Actually no it didn't. I'm not the private revelation type catholic for the most part. only three major ones I'm really devoted to which is Lourdes, Fatima and Ourl Lady of Ngome (here in South Africa)...

It's just that it seems to me that if EO really don't care much about catholic private revelation then why do they get much joy from slating it??? Because it's rare to find someone here who just says  "I don't believe it" end of story. It always has to follow up with "Nut jobs, halucinations, prelest,  Satan deceiving Catholics (potentially a sin against the Holy Spirit if you're wrong), Crazies etc... it's like on this topic EO become protestants. 

Quote
Quote
Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

Quote
“They will make mistakes, they will make a blunder, this will pass! Perhaps even a letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine [of the Faith] will arrive for you, telling you that you said such or such thing. … But do not worry. Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward.”

http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2013/06/pope-francis-downplays-threat-of-vatican-scrutiny-of-religious-orders/

This doesn't matter. The authority is the bishop. The CDF are ruling on it and the rumor is that they will confirm the local bishop's decision. If people persist then they are sinning. It's that simple. No amount of renegade priests and faithful can change that.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 03:16:59 AM by Wandile »
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Offline Wandile

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2016, 03:25:59 AM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

I realize that. I realize that as long as you're in communion with the Pontiff, it doesn't matter what you believe.

Lol diversity of belief is not allowed per our canons, councils and papal decrees so please spare me this crap  ::) if you have us for differing belief held by faithful then look at the log in your own eye. All world religions suffer from this problem because of the society we live in today.
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today


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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2016, 03:40:07 AM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

I realize that. I realize that as long as you're in communion with the Pontiff, it doesn't matter what you believe.

Lol diversity of belief is not allowed per our canons, councils and papal decrees so please spare me this crap  ::) if you have us for differing belief held by faithful then look at the log in your own eye. All world religions suffer from this problem because of the society we live in today.

So you say, but reality speaks a different tone. And I wasn't talking about the 'faithful' when I wrote that.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." (St. Manuel II Palaiologos)

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2016, 04:35:25 AM »
Amazing how all of you have suddenly gained clairvoyance and know the minds of others with such accuracy as to diagnose them as psychotic.

If you don't believe them so be it but don't be snarky about it.

Mudjegore was denounced by the local bishop so it has no sanction for belief.

I realize that. I realize that as long as you're in communion with the Pontiff, it doesn't matter what you believe.

Lol diversity of belief is not allowed per our canons, councils and papal decrees so please spare me this crap  ::) if you have us for differing belief held by faithful then look at the log in your own eye. All world religions suffer from this problem because of the society we live in today.

So you say, but reality speaks a different tone.
Then what honestly? You first come here with all this high and mighty EO drivel when really they are just like us. One priest says that contraception is allowed, the other doesn't. There are numerous cases of clergy with contradictory teachings in your communion. It just that you get less media coverage so it doesn't seem as rampant. Heretics exist in your church too despite your elaborate liturgies and fancy dress.

Quote
And I wasn't talking about the 'faithful' when I wrote that.
Same is true for your clergy. Heretics always exist. If you judge the early church by the same standard that you judge the Catholic Church today, they too would not survive your scrutiny. The early church was littered with arians, macedonians, monothelites, monophysites (yes some were actually eutychians), Nestorians, sabellians, judaizers, montanists etc all who occupied episcopal sees and patriarchal thrones and wore clerical regalia so please...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 04:46:27 AM by Wandile »
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2016, 06:36:57 AM »
You certainly know how to set up strawmen. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a dogma for everything, neither does it have anyone who claimed to be infallible. Therefore, to say that they are the same is intellectually dishonest.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." (St. Manuel II Palaiologos)

"Do not be ashamed to enter again into the Church. Be ashamed when you sin. Do not be ashamed when you repent." (St. John Chrysostom)

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." (Fr. Seraphim Rose)

Offline Wandile

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2016, 07:01:08 AM »
You certainly know how to set up strawmen. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a dogma for everything, neither does it have anyone who claimed to be infallible. Therefore, to say that they are the same is intellectually dishonest.

But it does have councils that teach ecclesiology and theology which are accepted by all orthodox as authoritative. Whether it's council or a man, or both, there is standard of orthodoxy and clergy on both sides have members who do not meet the standard of orthodoxy. So no this isn't not a straw man at all, it is painfully consistent.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 07:01:42 AM by Wandile »
"We shall steer safely through every storm, so long as our heart is right, our intention fervent, our courage steadfast, and our trust fixed on God"
-St. Francis De Sales

Venerable Benedict Daswa and Blessed Isidore Bakanja, Martyrs of Africa, pray for the Church today


You are welcome to send me private messages but I don't post publicly anymore

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2016, 07:32:39 AM »
You certainly know how to set up strawmen. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a dogma for everything, neither does it have anyone who claimed to be infallible. Therefore, to say that they are the same is intellectually dishonest.

But it does have councils that teach ecclesiology and theology which are accepted by all orthodox as authoritative. Whether it's council or a man, or both, there is standard of orthodoxy and clergy on both sides have members who do not meet the standard of orthodoxy. So no this isn't not a straw man at all, it is painfully consistent.

Indeed. And the councils are consistent with themselves about our ecclesiology and theology, whereas the teachings of Papal councils and individual Popes is not. It's entirely a strawman.
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." (St. Manuel II Palaiologos)

"Do not be ashamed to enter again into the Church. Be ashamed when you sin. Do not be ashamed when you repent." (St. John Chrysostom)

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." (Fr. Seraphim Rose)

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2016, 08:01:35 AM »
You certainly know how to set up strawmen. The Orthodox Church doesn't have a dogma for everything, neither does it have anyone who claimed to be infallible. Therefore, to say that they are the same is intellectually dishonest.

But it does have councils that teach ecclesiology and theology which are accepted by all orthodox as authoritative. Whether it's council or a man, or both, there is standard of orthodoxy and clergy on both sides have members who do not meet the standard of orthodoxy. So no this isn't not a straw man at all, it is painfully consistent.

Indeed. And the councils are consistent with themselves about our ecclesiology and theology, whereas the teachings of Papal councils and individual Popes is not.
We believe the same about you so there is no point in engaging in this type of argumentation.

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It's entirely a strawman.
You've even deviated from your own point. This has nothing to do with multiple beliefs held by clergy in both churches. I objected saying that you pretend like this isn't the case in EOy but it is the same. You have heretics in your ranks just like us ans both churches have a standard of doctrinal orthodoxy (ours isn't quite easy, look at the catechism)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 08:02:03 AM by Wandile »
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Offline Onesimus

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2016, 04:34:38 PM »
William,

Having gone back and reread my original posting, I can see how it isn't very clear what I'm trying to get across.   

I'm honestly not sure how to make it clear without writing a long paper.   It's a bit difficult to lay the groundwork for such a broad and complex topic without significant interaction with both Orthodox and RC anthropology, theology, epistemology, etc.

In reference to your point;
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They still have methods to reel in private revelation, and they still keep reason in check.

As St. Vincent of Lerins notes;  "...In the Church of God the teacher's error is the people's trial, a trial by so much the greater in proportion to the greater learning of the erring teacher.  Whatever methods you are referring to generally I will not discount.   And yet, if the methods also include the intentional adding of an erroneous basis for theology as leaven into the batch - it still leavens the whole lump.   The error then becomes the trial of the people - who are fenced in and restricted from true theology by "theology" based on spurious knowledge.   

Below is just some of the low hanging fruit I could scratch up.   There is much, much more.  I've saved you any commentary of my own.   

St. Neilos

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"One who has attained passionlessness has not necessarily achieved pure prayer.  (The height of theology)   For he may still swell on bare thoughts and be distracted by knowledge pertaining to them, and thus be far from God....the mind...may ever be occupied with speculation about things and meditate on their causes.  And though these are bare words since they are speculations about things, they impress their forms on the mind and lead it far from God.   If the mind has not risen above speculation about corporal nature, it has not yet beheld perfectly the place of  God.  For it may be occupied with knowledge of intelligible things and vary in relation to them."
St. Theodore of Edessa
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The intellect needs much opposition against sense, which draws downward; and this is the fight and battle against the body that is unceasing until death...However, this must be noted: that an illumined soul, since by nature she is not helped by God, can neither be genuinely purified, nor can she ascend to the Divine light...For the sake of greater clarity regarding these matters, it is necessary to distinguish...different kinds of knowledge.
  257-274

Saint Isiah the Anchorite

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"If your mind is freed from every hope of the world of visible things, this is a sign that sin in you has died.  If you mind is freed, the barrier between itself and God departs.  If the mind is freed from all its enemies and is at rest, it is in another, new age, thinking new, incorruptible things.
Evagrios

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...come to know that there is a difference between angelic thoughts, human thoughts and thoughts that come from demons.

Our rational nature, which became dead through wickedness, is resurrected by Christ through the contemplation of all the aeons.  And His Father raises, through the knowledge of Him, the soul which has died the death of Christ.   When the mind has put off the old man and put on the man of Grace, then it shall see its own state during prayer...
St. Mark the Ascetic.

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Knowledge of things is one thing, and knowledge of truth is another.  The second is more profitable than the first to the same extent that the sun surpasses the moon.  If you wish to be saved and "to come unto knowledge of truth (1 Time 2:4), endeavor always to transcend things apprehended by the senses, and through hope alone to cleave to God.  If you deviate from this way, you will find demonic principalities and powers fighting against you through suggestions."     

...the thoughts of things that are perceived by the senses causes the corruption on knowledge.

St. Peter of Damascus

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"Spurious knowledge, or "knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim 6:20) is that which a man possesses when he thinks he knows what he has never known.  It is worse than complete ignorance, says St. John Chrysostom, in that its victim will not accept correction from any teacher because he think that this worst kind of ignorance is in fact something excellent.

St. Mark the Ascetic

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"He who bases himself on bare knowledge is not yet a faithful servant...for bare knowledge puffs up man."

"The flesh desireith against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.  Those who "walk in the Spirit shall not fulfill the desire of the flesh."

"He who is nourished by thoughts is not self-restrained."

"The knowledge of each individual is true in proportion as it is confirmed by meekness, humility and love."

"Knowledge of things in one thing, and knowledge of truth is another.  The second is more profitable than the first to the same extent that the sun surpasses the moon.  Knowledge of things comes to one in proportion as he fulfills the Commandments; but knowledge of truth comes in proportion to one's hope in Christ.   If you wish to be saved and "to come unto the knowledge of the truth", endeavor always to transcend things apprehended by the senses, and through hope alone to cleave to God.  If you deviate from this way, you will find demonic principalities and power fighting against you through suggestions.   

The law of freedom teaches every truth.  Many read this according to their knowledge,but few understand it, each in proportion to his fulfilling of the Commandments.   The law of freedom is read through true knowledge, is understood through the fulfilling of the Commandments, and is completed through the mercies of Christ."

Read the words of Divine Scripture through deeds, and do not babble, being puffed up by bare notions.   He who neglects deeds and leans upon bare knowledge, holds instead of a double-edged sword a staff of reed, which in time of war...will go into his hand and pierce it, injecting the poison of nature prior to the enemy.

St. Anthony the Great

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"Men are improperly called rational; it is not those who have learned thoroughly the discourses and books of the wise men of old that are rational, but those who have a rational soul and can discern what is good and what is evil...."

Those men who partake of the virtuous life who are pious and have a God loving mind (nous); for the ordinary mind is worldly and changing.   It produces both good and evil thoughts, changes in nature, and turns towards material things."

St. Hesychois

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The intellect cannot conquer a demonic fantasy by its own unaided powers, and should never attempt to do so.  The demons are a sly lot: they pretend to be overcome and then trip us up by filling us with self esteem.   Do  not become conceited  like the ancient Israelites, and to betray yourself into the hands of your spiritual enemies.  For the(y)...liberated from the Egyptians by the God of all, devised a molten idol to help them.   The molten idol denotes our crippled intellect."
___________________________

Also see https://youtu.be/02I8EJF1jCg?t=417   Watch then thyself lecture starting at appox 7 mins.

Also see The Rational Man - pg. 2-5 http://www.saintedwardbrotherhood.org/2003/Shepherd_May2003_B.pdf


Offline William T

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Re: Contradictions in Catholic Private revalation?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 08:37:01 PM »
William,

Having gone back and reread my original posting, I can see how it isn't very clear what I'm trying to get across.   

I'm honestly not sure how to make it clear without writing a long paper.   It's a bit difficult to lay the groundwork for such a broad and complex topic without significant interaction with both Orthodox and RC anthropology, theology, epistemology, etc.


Though I am most certainly not professionally trained, a professional philosopher, or systematic in anyway (nor do I pretend to be): I'm not completely in the dark on this stuff (born and raised Orthodox, grew up in a heavy Catholic culture, Catholic school, mt first BA is in Classical studies, I've read a decent amount of ante-nicene/nicene Fathers throughout the years, etc).  I've also spent a lot of time debating and arguing against the uses abuses of reason, but I do this on secular reasoning and grounds with secular methodology and anecdotes*.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  Reason is an attribute of man, and it is an unavoidable feature on being human...in the same way as it can form cities and perform acts of mercy it can also destroy cities and perform acts of cruelty.


If your "quickie" response is something along the lines of: True Theology is a Holy, prayerful, ascetic and moral practice, I agree.  I'm not certain how big the gulf is between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is on this, as I've heard several different answers though I agree that Catholics tend to really a bit more heavily on an articulate kind of rationalism.  I guess I just don't think using Aristotle in a proscriptive classic and dead language like Greek or Latin is the worst thing in the world when it comes to that kind of thing if one has to use a formal and precise language among more academic theologians.


Anyway, that's kind of why I asked for a paper, lecture, source...just so I could see where you were coming from.  This may be a big subject, so if you want to drop it that's fine.  I was just curious.

*My favorite line of thought is using my job:  I'm a Medic, which means I am a tradesmen and I put into use the life sciences which contrast heavily with a subject like engineering and physics.  And the practice of a trade utilizing a larger, potentially infinitely complex body of knowledge (the life sciences study more complex phenomena than the engineer or the physicist)  is going to frustrate many rationalists and "irrationalists" alike.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 08:59:56 PM by William T »

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