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Author Topic: Palm Sunday protests against Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem  (Read 8370 times) Average Rating: 0
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lpap
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2005, 09:33:29 PM »

Elisha,

Well the main Church to receive condemnation of its practices on this forum is Antioch, so excuse my over-emotional defense.

Yes, many fear Antioch has compromised the faith, but I can assure you it has not, for if it did I wouldn't be apart of it.




Brother Antiochian,

Do you know about "The Jerusalem Task Force-+? Why the home page of the so called "task force" is inside an antiochian Church web site? http://stgeorgecicero.org/Organizations/TaskForce.aspx

Do you know that Dr. Madanat’s task force activities were presented in Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese’s magazine “the world” (february 2001 volume 45 No 2 -page 4): http://www.antiochian.org/Word_Magazine/Archives/Word200102.pdf

Have you ever heard about a task force organized from one Church in order to reform another sister Church?

(Of course this has nothing to do with you, or your faith)

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 09:34:40 PM by lpap » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2005, 09:55:26 PM »

Do you know about "The Jerusalem Task Force-+? Why the home page of the so called "task force" is inside an antiochian Church web site? http://stgeorgecicero.org/Organizations/TaskForce.aspx

Good Heavens!
According to this link, the aims of the "Taskforce" include:
Quote
How can our Church of Jerusalem and our Orthodox Christianity there be preserved and rejuvenated?
To do this, it is imperative that two immediate actions must be taken simultaneously:
1. We must support our churches under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem spiritually and materially.
2. We must affect a fundamental change in the Patriarchate that will put practices back in line with the teachings of our faith and the holy canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.
Action 2 is interesting for two reasons: firstly, for the use of "affect" (emotion/pretense) rather than "effect" (action)- I think this freudian slip speaks volumes. And secondly, I find it ironic that Antioch wishes to effect "a fundamental change in the Patriarchate that will put practices back in line with the teachings of our faith and the holy canons of the Holy Orthodox."
Is it any wonder that even the Icons in this particular Church weep?

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« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2005, 01:59:42 AM »

There's obviously differences in how the Jersualem Patriarchate should function, and to me these differences are political and have nothing to do with my faith or relationship with God.

Yes I support more Arab representation in Jerusalem because I believe that they can understand the issues and concerns of the Arab flock much better. All of you know this opinion, and I have only raised it in the wake of the land sale scandal. I do not have any animosity towards Greece or the Greek people, and I never objected to their rule of the Church in Jersualem until I felt that there were problems and misunderstandings of the issues that concern the Arab flock.

Obviously others here have a different opinion to me, which is fine, and on that I'm agreeing to disagree.

Many have to understand that the people of the Levant (Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians) are essentially a single people that share the same culture and history. So having said that, of course the relationship between Antioch and Jerusalem (and between their flock) is going to be unique to that of say Antioch and Moscow, and I think many people here who are not of this culture fail to understand that.

As for Antiochian bashing being the result of our arrogance, well this is my 41st post and only one of them had an arrogant tone which I apologised for, so I don't see that as a valid argument. I think other Orthodox Churches should be proud of our achievements in spreading Orthodoxy and join in our celebration of them. I assumed it was jealousy to begin with, and I apologised for that, but if it's not jealousy, then what is it that makes so many non-Antiochians resent the achievements of Antioch? And don't tell me it's "Antiochian arrogance".




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« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2005, 09:14:36 AM »

Patriarch denies guilt, Jerusalem clash feared

GALI TIBBON/AFP

Patriarch Irenaios congratulated worshippers yesterday for not believing “lies” about him and traveling to the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Jerusalem for Easter, while the government expressed fears about clashes between the faithful from Greece and other pilgrims.

After conducting a ceremony during which he washed the feet of 12 archimandrites, Irenaios responded to questions from journalists on the allegations that the Patriarchate sold politically sensitive land in Jerusalem’s Old City to Jewish investors. “I feel no guilt. God knows who I am,” said the patriarch.

The Washing of the Feet ceremony was conducted amid tight security, following discussions previously between Greek and Israeli officials about the possibility of similar — or worse — scenes taking place to those that occurred after a Palm Sunday service, when scuffles broke out between Greek worshippers and protesters heckling Irenaios. The lighting of the Sacred Flame tomorrow is one of the most likely flashpoints.

Deputy Foreign Minister Panayiotis Skandalakis said the government was following developments “very closely” and was in constant communication with Israeli authorities. “Especially since there will be a significant number of Greek worshippers visiting, it is vital that we avoid any incident that may have a negative impact on the devout atmosphere that should mark these days,” he said.

The patriarch also denied yesterday having links with convicted drug smuggler Apostolos Vavilis, who allegedly helped get Irenaios elected in 2001. “This matter does not concern us. (Vavilis) has nothing to do with the Patriarchate,” said Irenaios.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

H+++¦-ü+++++++++»+¦ : 29-04-05

Copyright: http://www.ekathimerini.com

The Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem Targum Menogian conducts the Washing of the Feet rite at the Armenian Church in Jerusalem’s Old City yesterday. Though the Orthodox faiths, including Greek, celebrate Easter together, priests have fought in the past during the Sacred Flame’s lighting, which is on Saturday.

 
 
 
 

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 09:16:01 AM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2005, 11:59:05 AM »

Speaking for just myself, as one who attends an Antiochian Church, it would seem that we must be willing to accept the fact our hierarchs may be apt to sin just like us. I don't always agree with AOA bishops or our primate, but I am willing to forgive them their trespasses as they are called to forgive mine. Let me offer a personal story to illustrate even though I am not all that comfortable doing so.
About three years ago, my first wife left me and took my 2 year old daughter with her. I was devestated. From the start she stated she wasn't interested in fixing our marriage.
Mind you, she was not and is not Orthodox. When I told my priest, I was barred from the sacrements. They held me as being at least slightly culpable in my separation and divorce. Now I was told by other Orthodox priests that since she wasn't of the Church of Christ that my divorce shouldn't be held against me and I should have never been denied communion. Whether this is correct or not, I don't know as I am not a scholar of Canon Law. But it felt wrong to me that I should be held as culpable as my exwife as I did seek reconciliation at first. But once she filed for divorce there was nothing I could do to stop it from happening as Indiana has no fault divorce. I felt abandoned by the Church as no one made any effort to counsel me or even to just pray with me. I didn't even have the comfort of the Holy Sacraments. And so for a year, I left the Church that I felt had turned it's back to me. I could go into more specific details about all this but I doubt anyone's really interested but back to my long story.
Alone in the wilderness, in a continual dark night of the soul, I was drinking Vodka alone in the dark crying and begging for anything to ease my heart's suffering, even death. I got on my knees and prayed in front of my icons at home. I asked for forgiveness and mercy. I confessed how empty and scared I was inside. I begged God to ease my burdens as I couldn't take it anymore.
And then I passed out from the liquor.
But it was upon waking, that I felt a strange sense of calm inside me. I knew if I let go, God would be there for me. Since that day, I have remarried to a wonderful woman, and will be allowed to partake in the sacraments hopefully by Pascha or soon after.
My point (finally) is this. For years, I suffered something that I didn't think my Bishops needed to make me go through. Whether they are right or wrong isn't the issue to me, it's me willing to say if I wronged then please forgive me and help me to atone for my sins, if it was my heirarchs who erred, I have already forgiven them. I just wanted to come Home. I am sorry if this seems long-winded but at least you have a better idea of where I stand on the issue of infallibility of Antiochian bishops.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 12:02:34 PM by Columba » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2005, 11:01:26 PM »

Columba,

A moving story and God be with you.

I would be the first to say that clergymen are ordinary men capable of sins, and sin they do. My uncle is a priest and I have told him this a dozen times, I'm quite the liberal Antiochian.

The community here in Australia is quite aware that our Antiochian fathers are capable of sinning. I know in Lebanon there has been a culture of living by every single word of the clergy, with the Catholics also, and if that's what people here are referring to then by all means I agree, but that is not the case for the entire Church and I'm sure you'll find other Churches with similar issues.

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« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2005, 02:24:49 PM »

Like I've mentioned before, just look at the Council of Trent where most of the Orthodox Hierarchs got rejected by the faithful and shamed into recanting and repenting.

Trent? I think you meant Florence.
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« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2005, 03:02:54 PM »



Trent?  I think you meant Florence.

Yeah, whatever.  One of those meaningless "Catholic" councils we Orthodox don't care about.  Cheesy
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2010, 06:12:48 AM »

Do you know about "The Jerusalem Task Force-+? Why the home page of the so called "task force" is inside an antiochian Church web site? http://stgeorgecicero.org/Organizations/TaskForce.aspx

Good Heavens!
According to this link, the aims of the "Taskforce" include:
Quote
How can our Church of Jerusalem and our Orthodox Christianity there be preserved and rejuvenated?
To do this, it is imperative that two immediate actions must be taken simultaneously:
1. We must support our churches under the Patriarchate of Jerusalem spiritually and materially.
2. We must affect a fundamental change in the Patriarchate that will put practices back in line with the teachings of our faith and the holy canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.
Action 2 is interesting for two reasons: firstly, for the use of "affect" (emotion/pretense) rather than "effect" (action)- I think this freudian slip speaks volumes.

Could just be language: most Arabs have trouble distinguishing short "e" and "a."

"Why are you seeking the living among the dead?" That's the question the Task Force is asking the Tomb Brotherhood.

Quote
And secondly, I find it ironic that Antioch wishes to effect "a fundamental change in the Patriarchate that will put practices back in line with the teachings of our faith and the holy canons of the Holy Orthodox."
Is it any wonder that even the Icons in this particular Church weep?


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                           and both come out of your mouth
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